Anonynomenon's Matt 24 metering

brainout | 21 Feb 2016, 11:53

EDIT: Video playlist on this thread is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWhe4wg2Q8Q&list=PL1bv_xPIih3fs-vKfMgiVbt4fmi3Xs3Yf It only plays in Youtube, so use the link to create a new window or tab.

The text is reparsed SIX times so far (as of end Feb, 2017), so this discussion is very windy, as we try to refine the proper meter. The latest revision to the text is at http://www.brainout.net/Matt24-25ParsedR6.pdf (.doc is editable) . Purpose of thread is METHODOLOGY, to vet.

Upshot: it's a timeline from 30-3250AD, satire on the denouement of Church, update on Daniel 9 which updated Daniel 2's Man of Time, which in turn was updated in Daniel 11's 'King of the North' which moves steadily WESTWARD. So we wonder if the US is the eventual Gentile anti-christ (Dan11:35ff depicts the Jewish anti-christ, there are two potential in any year). No predicting Rapture, but still history would go on, so what would it be like? That's what this timeline tells you. Moses did the same starting in Genesis 1, and then Isaiah 53 played on Psalm 90 (written same year as Gen1), and then Dan9 played on both. Then Mary played on Daniel, and now the Lord plays on all those prior texts. The syllable counts are MEANINGFUL, to 'tag' those other passages.

Goes through world history, so you just add 30 to the syllable counts then look at the text to see the satire on that period.

Initial version, Anonynomenon's pdf of Matt24 Greek meter, in draft, is attached per his request. If you also have a problem uploading your stuff, just email it to me. For some reason I don't have problems uploading attachments. You shouldn't either, so if you do maybe I've set something wrong; let me know what error message you get.

Anonynomenon | 22 Feb 2016, 03:07

Thank you Brainout, for up loading the document for me.

Matt 24 opens with an 84 syllable Divine Decree, predicting the Temple's destruction. Jesus was speaking just before His arrest and crucifixion in 30 AD, and we know that the Temple fell in 70 AD. So verse 1 shows Jesus leaving the Temple in 40 syllables, which I believe foreshadows the Temple's time expiring 40 years later.

Jesus then tells His disciples of the Temples destruction in verse 2, closing the Divine Decree with the last 44 syllables.

Just 84 years before the Olivet Discourse, the Jerusalem Temple was sacked by Crassus in 53 BC on his way to the Parthians.

So for Matthew 24 (and probably for the entire book) the Dateline looks like 30 AD: 84 years after the Temple is sacked in 53 BC, and 40 years before its total destruction in 70 AD. The question is, what took place 44 years later in 114 AD????? I'm still working on that.

In 115 AD, the Kitos War a (Jewish revolt), erupted while Trajan was busy with the Parthian War. Some sources place this Jewish revolt in 114 AD. So 84 years before 30 AD, was Crassus on his way to fight the Parthians, and 84 years later, a Jewish revolt while Trajan is fighting the Parthians. History repeating!!!!

Any thoughts?

brainout | 22 Feb 2016, 03:43

Well, you need two datelines. 84 could be one, and you've made a plausible argument for 84 doctrinally and datewise, but you need a second which is doctrinally-consistent. Elision looks okay.

84 is DECREE MADE meter, established by Moses in Psalm 90. So that fits, too. Isaiah split up the 84 into two 42 bookends for the Decree of Messiah First to Last David in Isaiah 53 (52:13-14=42 syllables, and 53:12=42 syllables).

Instead of 44 years you'd want 84 years after. If we say 30 rather than 31 AD which 84 years aft would produce, then 30+84=114, would be 115 if -53+84; the Kitos war ref is interesting. We need to know more about it. Paul benchmarks 114 in Ephesians when satirizing Trajan, for he dies at the end of having increased Rome to its largest extent, only to be undone by his heir Hadrian (satire using the eta in thelematos three times, each with same meaning of an emperor death which is in vain).

If you split the 84 like Isaiah did, then 31+42 is 73, which could tie to Temple Destruction date, as the Lord would then be age 73 using Paul's A.D. counting style. That's what John does in his letters: Christ born 4103 from Adam's Fall therefore 4176. Which is, 40 years after Isaiah 53's endpoint (37AD is when Christ was supposed to die, had Israel accepted Him).

Most interesting, is the 44 versus 40. The latter is well known number of judgment, and the extra 4 has so much meaning re the flaw in Varro's accounting which ended up causing our own BC/AD accounting flaw, plus a cute ref to the constantly-recurring 3.5 hanging chad. I gotta think about it more, though.

So the meter looks quite plausible, with doctrinal fit. We still need the second dateline, to better know.

So that second dateline, in your workup, is 63, same as Psalm 90, seven more than 56. Clever. So let's apply the test:

30+63 is 93, 31+63 more like it, 94 as Lord's Age, when Trib supposed to start. Hence the extra seven, being made up so the Trib can begin on time anyway. But either way, since you're in your 94th year when age 93. So 90-91 AD, three years after John penned Revelation. Meaning? Mid-Trib schedule, when Temple abominated.

What about 63 years prior? That would be 33BC, possibly 32BC, Augustus' rise to power, though he himself dated it from Actium which was 31. But then we've the 4-year variance, which wasn't favored UNTIL Augustus (Varro's calendar only became law under Claudius). Given the 40/44 play, I have to think something deliberate's going on here, but what? Not sure.

The other two, ending with 91 as 21+70 is very Mosaic Psalm 90, idea of using 70 as a 490. Maybe that's why Paul also structured Eph1:3-14 using 434, to play on both Matt24 and Daniel 9 at the same time? Same style as Isaiah 53? Intriguing.

Pattern: 84+63+21+70+84 (so bookended, playing on Isaiah 53, DOUBLING his bookending) + 133 (again playing on the candlestick meter in Isaiah, 52;13-53:2, then also 53:9-12, each 133 syllables), +105 (prominent in Paul but I'm not sure all of what it means, seems to make up for the extra 7 from when Mill was supposed to begin at His Age 98).

Verse 4 using 21, number of years Jacob was under Laban -- is the meter of GROWTH. So GROWTH is forecast under pressure. That Growth occurs best under pressure. As, with Jacob. Idea of indenture.

70 of course, is the meter of mass voting by believers to grow, in 490+70+490=1050, the foundational civilization unit which Moses used in Gen 1 meter. Interesting that it's used for verse 5, to describe both the Church Age (which after all hadn't yet begun and might still not have) -- as well as the Trib -- which is also a voting. Equating the two, and of course there's 7*70, 490.

Not seeing the palindrome which is another characteristic, yet bookending is clear (test of meter being deliberate, not coincidental). AND 63+21=84. Peter played on 84 for his dateline meter, too.

Wait, we do have a palindrome: verses 7-9 are of opposite meter compared to 1-2. Mirrored. So it's deliberate.

Verses 10-14 at 133, just like Isaiah and Daniel used it, but is the Lord also piggybacking? In Daniel 9:7 where the piggybacking started, the 133 differential is marked by SUMMATION of Israel's sins whether 'near or far'. So too, verses 10-14 seem a summation again of worldwide scope. What about Psalm 90 and Isaiah 53? In the latter, the 133s are used for Decree balanced by history, respectively. Psalm 90:7 ends cumulatively at 133, and that's the verse on how we end our lives angry with God (accusing Him of our own anger). But of course Ephesians 1 wasn't written yet, so no ties there.

Now the final paragraph, re the Trib itself, verses 15-18. I see the 105 a lot, seems to be 98 (Lord's Age when Mill was supposed to begin) +7, as if all history is 7 years later than scheduled, pre-Church. Trouble is, I haven't found yet WHEN that extra seven began. It might have been with Jacob, for remember only a total of 14 years working was supposed to occur. Or it might have occurred with David living to age 77 not 70, when he retired (pity scholars don't read 1Kings 6:1 properly). So 105 comes to mean a TIME MAKEUP FINISHED value.

It's interesting that 105x12=1260. That's another way to see the syllables are deliberately metered, for those in the Trib will need the mnemonic when to start the countdown that Revelation 11 reveals (1221.75 then 75 then Abomination set up, with 1260 being the midpoint, remember SOLAR year accounting means 365.25x7=2556.75 days in 7 years).

So the meter total is 560, VOTE COMPLETION! Wow, I've been looking for that; we have the 560 (v.19) and 1050 (v.31) in Geneis 1 meter, the 490's used in Psalm 90 and Isaiah 53 and Paul, but I'd not seen a 560 yet in other OT or NT. I don't see any need to change your elision assumptions, either. You seem to be onto something here! Maybe a whole timeline for eternity from His Time forward, playing on Daniel 9:24's suntelw? It's so similar to Moses in Psalm 90 and Isaiah 53, I wonder...

Anonynomenon | 22 Feb 2016, 05:57

I'm still working on the second dateline. Herod the Great built the Antonia Fortress around the Temple mount in 35 BC. I'm not sure how accurate that date is, or how significant it would be, but it was torn down in 70 AD. Then you have Domitian's persecution of Christians in 93AD, but I can't place my finger on a specific event.

But how could the Tribulation start and Jesus' age of 94. He died at the age of 33 in the year 4,136. So 4,136+61=4197. That doesn't allow for a 7 year Tribulation before 4,200.

Do you mean the Great Tribulation of 3.5 years? That is what He mentions in Matt 24:15-22.

The 63 syllables of Matt 24:3 are the disciples asking for timing and signs of Jesus' return. Maybe the Antonia Fortress (which would eventually be torn down) was one of the signs, and 93 AD was (as you stated) supposed to be the start of the Great Tribulation.

Look at how the Antonia Fortress and Great Tribulation are linked:

brainout | 22 Feb 2016, 06:06

Yeah, those items too. I'm still editing my comment while you're typing yours. You really are onto something here. I've been editing for over an hour and not done yet, so if you don't hear back from me for awhile, that's why.

Anonynomenon | 22 Feb 2016, 06:13

At this point, I'm pretty confident on my elision placements. This is my second attempt at metering Matt 24, and I've got the same syllable counts, with one or two elision changes that I've made after learning more about Greek.

Keep in mind that the 105 is in fact 35+70, so the 35 is completing the 490, and the 70 is completing the 560, like you pointed out.

If we can prove that 30 AD is the year Matthew wrote, then it looks like 30 AD started a new 490+70, right?

Anonynomenon | 22 Feb 2016, 06:47

Also notice the mirror imaging that Matthew does with the twin bookending 84's: 40+44 and 44+40. Very fancy. 😁

Anyways, I have to pull myself away from this and try to get some sleep. I'm sure I'll be muttering numbers in my sleep. Looking forward to reading what you're writing tomorrow.

brainout | 22 Feb 2016, 08:47

Okay, well I've temporarily finished re-editing my first post reaction to your meter, so some of your later comments you too might want to edit. I found some palindrome, and the 35+70 meaning is fine, but it seems in context more to talk back to 98+7, the Lord warning them that the Trib won't be 'on time'.

As for the new 490 beginning 30 AD, yeah I did GeneYrs.xls that way, but Paul seems to be starting a new 490 at His Birth, see the meter in Eph1:3-14.* He uses 56 where Mary left off (Lord's Age). Then has the palindromic 434, so 56+434=490 (the last 56 in ellipsis just like Daniel 9 did).

So maybe BOTH are 490 measuring periods for time grants? But only one can be the historical 490. Still, if staying with the old Adamic model (which I did), there is a convergence.

Look it over, lemme know your thoughts. I have to upload the weekly God Deeds and do other work now, wish I could only do this instead!

*PDF version this copy, page 8.

brainout | 22 Feb 2016, 11:21

Forgot to cover red-highlighted stuff below. 4103+33+40-4106 to adjust for BC/AD =70. So His age 94=91 AD. So mid-Trib when Temple Abominated, was yet future (could have been rebuilt or partly rebuilt or sacrificing on it like they did in Haggai or Ezra 1-6, by then). Trib start per Bible would have been His age 91, and John was exiled then per Rev, 88 AD. That was when Domitian started his persecutions, as I tried to show live in books I was reading on him at the time, here.

Christianity uses Eusebius instead of historical facts; the former was one of the biggest liars in Christendom, making up nearly everything like Donald Trump does, all for sales purposes. So our false notions of 95AD and near that for John stem from Eusebius. But there is no evidence of Domitian persecuting anyone but his own, and he did that in 88-89AD, which John's meter matches. Aha. Still doesn't prove that John's exile had anything to do with Domitian, but it makes sense some provincial official wanting to be in D's good graces would have rounded up Christians and exiled the leader(s).

brainout | 22 Feb 2016, 12:52

This post will cover the last half. Through v.18, we had 560 ending at the Trib Mid-Point aka Temple Down aka Daniel 9:27 midpoint, matching the dateline themes. So verses 19 and following are on something additional about the same period, or something else. We can see from the text, that verses 19+ are like a rabbinical commentarty on what to LEARN from that period, whether you live through it or not.

Pattern is 119+168+189+126+308+217=1127, which is odd. Frankly the meter doesn't look right. Doesn't mean it's wrong, but the elision is definitely off (ouai is two syllables, not one). So it needs revisiting.

Anonynomenon | 22 Feb 2016, 18:39

What about this?

I was thinking that 'ouai' could be pronounced as 'wai'.

brainout | 23 Feb 2016, 00:01

Krasis is ok. But ou-ai isn't 'w' sound.

The bigger point is, let's just focus on verses 1-18 for now, hone down the meaning. The balance of the chapter is the rabbinical commentary, and if it's metered will play on the prior meter. I kinda doubt that the whole chapter is metered, but let's just test the first 18 verses for now?

One of the big questions is WHAT FISCAL we're dealing with. Sacred Jewish year fiscal Passover in what we call 30 AD would be really 31, at START of year. That's when He died. It would have become 31AD Adamic six months prior. So let's hone down the datelines, since if we use 30AD for the subtraction, it might instead need to be called 29 or ..?

It's very plausible, given Matt 26, That Matt 24 and 25 are spoken before the vernal equinox in what we call 30 AD.

Biggest reason why: if the 1st 18 aren't as you've shown, the whole chapter is blown. As it stands, 1127 is too much.

So let's validate the first 18 then when sure, go through the rest.

Anonynomenon | 23 Feb 2016, 02:03

Ok, so commenting on your long edit.

63: I REALLY like the idea that 63 might be a reference to the Antonia Fortress of 33ish BC and Christ's age at OLD SCHEDULE--MIDTRIB in 93 AD...for the obvious reason that the Antonia Fortress was torn down in 70 AD. What are your thoughts on that???

133: Following the uses of 133 from Pslam 90, Daniel 9, Isaiah 52-53, Matt 24, and finally Ephesians 1. It looks like its related to the need, rejection, prophetic fulfillment, communication, and glorification of God's mercy via His plan of Salvation. Each use of 133 shows a progression in God's plan; Psalm 90--total depravity of humanity, Daniel 9--Israel's rejection of God's witness, Isaiah 52-53--God's mercy fulfilled and justice satisfied, Matt 24--evangelism, and Ephesians 1--the Father is Glorified by His Son's work of Salvation. Do you agree that the 133's all have a common theme?

105: I find it interesting that 105 is related to MAKING UP TIME, but in Matt 24:15-18 the clause is specifically divided up into 35+70, rather than the 98+7....and Matt 24's 105 is about the Abomination mid-point, not the full 7 years. Still, the MAKE UP TIME idea is attractive: Hypothetically speaking, what would it mean to find a number like 455, or 945 without the presence of the 105? Would that mean TIME IS MADE UP??? Remember that 315, 210, 1,050-5,250, 1,260 and 1,365 are all multiples of 105, so what would be the mnemonic value for those cases??? What if 105 is a general meaning for BUYING TIME?? Where else in OT meter is 105 used? Maybe that can tell us where the EXTRA 7 came from.

I'll be working on 21 and 70 next. Since 63 is probably a second dateline, does that mean I count 30 AD+21, or should I do 30AD +84+63+21???

brainout | 23 Feb 2016, 03:01

Okay, I've still got to read and respond to your latest post. I was here, but instead chasing down the validity of datelines 84 and 63.

Crassus' sacking is obviously valid. 84+30 to ref Kitos war, less so, but since Paul satirizes the same time period, it must have some validity. I just found a post in a forum about it, referencing Cassius Dio's account, here: https://historum.com/t/the-kitos-war.35146/

Dio is one of the respected Roman annalists of that time. Most of his stuff didn't survive. What sticks out about that post, is the sacking of Roman temples in CYRENE (northern Africa), etc. The rebellion was all over the Roman empire and seems to have caused Hadrian to turn anti-semitic or at least adopt such a policy. Precursor for him wanting to raze Jeruselam entire, make Aeolia Capitolina when he came to power in 118, hence spawning Bar Kochba. I wasn't aware he wanted to do it that early. Still not sure he did.

The 63 as -30+63 is somewhat puzzling, unless the Lord is using the convention of dating from Roman consulship (Octavian not yet Augustus, 2nd consulship). Unless, the Lord is referring to 'The Donations' which once had Octavian's backing; but in 33BC he used them to start war with Anthony. That was the last year of the (Second) Triumvirate with Anthony. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donations_of_Alexandria

Re the Antonia Fortress, that's not Jewish construction so I don't see why it would be mentioned. The passage is about the Temple Talking about the Temple representing Him, so should be about people. Since the later reference is clearly about ROME, you could argue the pre- Incarnation reference should be as well, not merely when edifice was constructed. So what is as big as 30+63? I'm thinking only the whole Donations thingy, as that was an epic inheritance struggle over whether Antony or Octavian would be speaking for 'Rome', with the claim by Antony that 'Palestine' was part of the 'Donation'.

Of course, that's WHY the 'Antonia' fortress was built: Herod backed Anthony then. It was in essence a succession war over who of Caesar's kids should rule, his legal heir Octavian or his legal son, Caesarion. 🥊

By contrast, the 30+63 is clear and immediately relevant, since under Daniel 9 the Temple was originally slated to be Abominated mid-Trib, and Matt24 is about Abomination. 93 is mid Trib in that schedule (Lord's Age: Trib was always scheduled to begin at His Age 91 and Mill to begin when He reached age 98). Which would have been used for illustration, as Church was NOT YET certain to occur.

Anonynomenon | 23 Feb 2016, 03:08

Since 84 and 63 are probably datelines which seem to work best with 31 AD (so far), then;

31 AD+84+21= 136 AD--By this time, Hadrian has stopped the Bar Kokhba revolt and chased the Jews out of Galilee. Then Judea and Galilee becomes Palestine. This could be considered Christ's follow up to the disciples' question, where Jesus say in verse 4, "See to it that no one misleads you." Simon bar Kokhba mislead many Jews and is said to have persecuted Christians. Rabbi Akiva ben Joseph even hinted at the possibility that bar Kokhba was the messiah. Looks like a false christ with his false prophet.

If we then go back in time: 30 AD-(84+21)= 75 BC-- I'm not sure what happened here that is relevant to the passage, but in 76 BC, leadership in Judea switched from Alexander Jannaeus at his death to his wife Salome Alexandra, and her son Hyrcanus II became the High Priest.

brainout | 23 Feb 2016, 04:13

Why are you adding 21 to 84? The datelines are 84 and 63, reverse order from Psalm 90's presentation. I'm sorry, not following why you're doing the calculation below.

brainout | 23 Feb 2016, 04:26

My replies are below:

Yeah, just posted them above this post. More like ANTHONY than Antonia.

Yeah, common theme. Haven't thought of the meaning as a progression per iteration pan-Bible. We'd have to see that with other meters as well, if used with this one..

Well, I didn't see the meter subdivide as either 35+70 or 98+7 (verse 15 is again the pregnant 44, not 35; you cannot syntactically append its last 9 syllables instead to v.16); so was going by text for the meaning. As we've discussed before, I'm not yet sure all of what and why the 105 is used. Answers are very tentative, until more proof if its usage, obtains..

No, just 84 and then separately, 63. Still, if there is other play you can validate, maybe some other mix applies, but I've not seen datelines used in other ways, yet..

Anonynomenon | 23 Feb 2016, 05:20

Ok. I just spent the last few hours reparsing Matt 24:1-18. The same main counts are there, but there is much more to it than I originally thought.

yeah, you're right, the 105 is NOT 35+70. I fixed that.

the new results are:

(40+44)+(42+21)+(21+70)+(44+40)+(28+105)+105=560

Uploading the new pdf.

Since 63=42+21, does that mean there are 3 datelines? Have you seen that before? Isn't that what Peter used?

brainout | 23 Feb 2016, 05:33

Okay, but you have to test for sevening prior to 105 in each case, and parse by clause. The overall meanings are still fine, but absent the subsevening, you don't know the actual pattern. And it could well be an annual satirization on future history, just as Paul ends up doing in Ephesians 1:3-14. His wasn't the first; so it should be that the Lord Himself did the same thing somewhere, since Mary did it in the Magnificat.

So we need to see the subsevening. Then again, you're probably exhausted by now, maybe take a break for awhile.

Anonynomenon | 23 Feb 2016, 05:42

Sub sevening? Not sure what you mean.

you mean like in 133=28+105??? The 28 is 21(ending with 'kai')+7 (miseisousin alleilous). That's verse 10.

or in verse 3b? "kai ti to seimeion teis (7) seis parousias kai sunteleias tou aiwnos(14)"

Anyways, just let me know if that's what you mean. Ill work on it tomorrow. Gonna hit the sack for now.

brainout | 23 Feb 2016, 18:15

Yeah, that's why you want to break the meter by clauses. Detect any subsevening within the verses, because then the meter pattern will be clearer.

It's already obviously deliberate. But the 'big chunks' like 105 are probably subsevened. If not, then the validation of the 105 meaning is also more secure. We have to be sure which it is.

Don't force the sevening. Do by clause, it should flow naturally. So do NOT end with 'kai', as that begins a new clause. DO NOT do it Jewish style, where they just break the text in sixes (sevens, in our case) no matter where the break occurs. CLAUSES ONLY.

brainout | 23 Feb 2016, 19:29

2nd reply, more detail

kai begins clauses or is ascensive/emphatic, never ends them.

"kai ti to seimeion teis seis parousias (12) kai sunteleias tou aiwnos (9)"

12 is freq. meter for the 12 tribes, 9 for Trinity. This is the kind of stuff you find when you ONLY meter by clauses and then ONLY seven accumulatively.

Anonynomenon | 24 Feb 2016, 05:37

Never mind, my math was wrong. Had a long day.

brainout | 24 Feb 2016, 05:40

Verse 10 is fascinating. 28 is the meter of growth, so apparently division and strife among believers is used by God to create growth (21+7).

Wow, vv11-14, I can't see any subsevening, and the text fits the 105 meaning of completing All Time with the added 7 years. But it drives me crazy. I still can't tell WHAT seven is missing, other than the extra seven years of His Life which got cut short, but He'd still be the same age on any Schedule? Unless the SCHEDULE was built around Him dying at 40? (You remember, I suppose, that Talmud's San97-99 affirm that too.)

How do we go about proving that the entire timeline was based on Him dying at 40? It's built into the Abrahamic schedule (4106 initial scheduled Birth, 4146 initial scheduled death, 2100 years after Abraham's supermaturation), but He still dies in time for the original schedule for Trib to occur, so what's this about the extra 7 still mattering? I'm cornfused.

Anonynomenon | 24 Feb 2016, 05:56

Well, Jesus is the Temple incarnate, so maybe His life span schedule directly correlated to the Temple. Jews entered the Land 40 years late, so Temple fell 40 years after Jesus died, maybe showing that Jesus should have lived to the age of 40?

Think about it. Jesus lived to age 33, then Temple stood for 40 years post death. If Jesus had lived to be 40, Temple would have stood only 33 more years. It must be deliberate.

brainout | 24 Feb 2016, 06:27

Yeah, but then the hanging-chad 7 in Daniel 9 is a PREDICTION that He'd die early? Or...?

That extra 14 was built into Psalm 90, for crying out loud. That's why it's 84 rather than 70. So I'm thinking Jacob was the origin of the 14 late, but now...?

Then there's the Pharaoh Dream and David Reign 33+7 structures...

Anonynomenon | 24 Feb 2016, 06:39

Maybe Daniel was offering the possibility of an early death. Didn't Isaiah predict Israel's rejection of Christ?

Are there any uses of 33 in the OT? Either overt or in the meter?

Anonynomenon | 24 Feb 2016, 06:49

Ok. 2 Sam 5:5 says David ruled in Hebron for 7.5 years. So unless Christ is cutting six months off of Tribulation, then His early death can't be related to the Tribulation.

brainout | 24 Feb 2016, 06:53

Okay, we were typing at the same time. I don't know of any other 33+7 structures, except Pharaoh and David. I see your point about the 7.5 ruling out His early death as Trib-related, but somehow the WHOLE TIMELINE is off the 7 years, due to .. what, since it balances? I mean, had there been no Church, Mill still was to begin on time, but .. ok, maybe it's too late, my brain is OUT.

Then again, when Dan9 written, you had the extra 7 due only to the fact that there were 7 sabbatical years owed on the 49, which could NOT be made up during Israel's time, so that's why they were esconced in Dan9:25-26, for Messiah's lifetime. Maybe that's it.

Anonynomenon | 24 Feb 2016, 07:03

Yeah, I'm pretty burned out too.

It has to be Jacob. Jeremiah 30:7 calls it the time of Jacob's trouble. I know that Jacob is a common name for Israel, but the use of Jacob must mean the Tribulation time originated from Jacob.

That's it for now.

Ok. What about this: Abraham matured 54 years early, so Jacob is born 54 years early. Israel delays 40 of the 54 years in entering the Land, so the Canaanites/Gentiles keep the land 40 years longer than they were supposed to. So what's left is the remaining 14 that follow after Temple falls.

brainout | 24 Feb 2016, 07:16

Okay, but how do we prove Jacob born 54 years early.. oh, you mean the timeline speeded up due to..okay, but then Temple would be also falling too soon.. hmm.

In any event, we've back-to-back 105's; first, in 11-14, then 15-18. Paul uses 210, but I forget how. It's 7 more than 203 in Isaiah 53, which syllable is the TEMPLE DOWN at 586 BC prophetic countdown.

Cross ref 210 in Psalm 90:10 on how long man lives. Clever.

Anonynomenon | 24 Feb 2016, 07:20

If you consider the Temple to be Israel's time, then the Temple fell late due to late entry. The 40 year credit was reimbursed to the Canaanites, not Romans.

brainout | 24 Feb 2016, 07:26

Yeah, she's 14 years overbudget at that time. So if the Trib is subsumed into the 40 as 7+33 but it doesn't play because Christ is rejected 7 years early...?

Anonynomenon | 24 Feb 2016, 07:37

Well remember that Jesus lived to be 33.5 years, so that shaves the 6 months off of the Hebron model, the Trib could be the 7 years taken from Jesus.

But we know Jacob was 7 years over budget, having to work for two wives. So maybe Jesus' early death was because of Jacob's overage, therefore Christ had to pay for Church too.

brainout | 24 Feb 2016, 07:40

Well, He was born on Chanukah, so not quite 6 months by Passover following. The parallel to Leah (Israel) and Rachel (Church) is interesting. But He dies 7 years EARLY not late, so....

Anonynomenon | 24 Feb 2016, 07:47

Because Jacob had 14 years to buy his brides, it cost Jesus 7 years to buy His bride. Its not a parallel, but a contrast.

If Jacob had stayed on schedule, Christ would have stayed on schedule, and they would each have had what they originally wanted.

brainout | 24 Feb 2016, 07:51

Okay, well that's a decent point. It just CANNOT be coincidental that the two 105's, which like you originally parsed, have 35+70, to parallel Psalm 90:10 which is 35 syllables and TALKS ABOUT man's lifetime as a 70-year (voting!) period. Granted, the actual parsing for the first 105 is 44+61, but in context it's pregnant. The second doesn't subseven either. To show only complete at the end. WITH the extra 7.

So, okay, maybe the point you're now making about buying Bride is the reason. I'm stupified.

So now maybe verses 19 and following in their meter, will elucidate?

Anonynomenon | 24 Feb 2016, 08:02

In that case, then the Tribulation is simply the 70th week (483+7=490). No reimbursement, but a delayed payment due to Church.

If Jesus had lived to be 40, then Jacob's overage would have been taken from the Temple's 33 remaining years???

brainout | 24 Feb 2016, 08:12

Well, that's the problem. I can't find the timeline actually being delayed due to Jacob.

Good night, I gotta work tomorrow.

Anonynomenon | 24 Feb 2016, 08:21

I see 26 a lot in the meter. Can't remember where at the moment, but could it be related to 26+7?

Under the principle of right-man/right-woman, Jacob was delayed in buying Leah. So that could be taken as a deviation from the schedule. The metaphor is pretty direct: Jacob represents Christ, Leah is Israel, Rachel is Church. We are purchaced from the slavery of sin, so maybe Laban represents Satan.

brainout | 24 Feb 2016, 09:27

Okay, came back, couldn't sleep. I'm wondering where we find the initial precedent for the annual prophetic timeline Paul uses in Ephesians. He bases his meter on the Magnificat, but that was retrospective exposition, then affirming the fulfilment of the prophecy through Abraham, by its end. So where did Paul get the intervening prophecy timeline? What if -- and it should be so -- Paul got it from the Lord speaking the text we call Matt 24 or its Luke 21 version? Luke and Ephesians come out the same year. But maybe it's actually from Matthew, since Luke wraps to Matthew's text.

So where does the annual prophetic timeline start? 24:1, which is added by Matthew so NOT spoken by the Lord? It's not sevened until end verse 2, so is there an ellipsis of 40 at the end of the chapter? And what is the starting point? Temple Down? Or the Lord's death, which makes more sense given that 560 is the total by end verse 18?

If a timeline, then it would explain why so long, over 1000. But it subdivides: 476 (Daniel's number, 14 shy of 490) from v.19-31 (end, still using your initial pdf). V.31 ends with what we'll later know as the Rapture, 2Thess 4:17, made into the theme of whole book of Hebrews (climactically explained in 11:39-40, then played on in 12:1, and finally depicted in Rev 4:1's two meta tauta clauses).

Then 126, evoking Isaiah's twin 126's, verses 32-35. For after all, now we're talking Trib. So then not a timeline anymore, since it's too long? Only figurative, to remind everyone of the twin 126's?

Then verses 36-44, play on Noah in Boat (365-57) which Paul definitely uses, followed by verses 45-51 (chapter end) = 217 which Mary used and obviously the Lord would have her syllable count in Magnificat memorized so could easily be seen as playing on it.

Most interestingly, Genesis 1 is 1141 syllables total (Hebrew of chapter ends at what we call 2:3). Minus 14? 1127, the total number of syllables from verses 19-51! So the Progenitor of all History is making a new 1050, with the extra 14 in ellipsis? 1050+91=1141, the '91' being allowance for another 'season', maybe 'hidden' Church?

Pretend all that's true. Then we could argue that v.19 instead begins 70 AD (40 fronting ellipsis), the dual entendre and actual historical prophecy both included in the meaning. So the preceding 560 (with ellipsis, when the Lord is actually talking) was principle, overview; kinda like how Gen1 is overview for the 'detail' of Gen2, which covers the same period. So verses 19-51 would be some kind of timeline, also somewhat still principle, to show the '1050' with some kind of overlap, since CA really started on Pentecost 30AD. But the extra 91 with the 14 subtraction, then means what? A total of maybe 77 years overbudget? If so, how? But when do you subtract the 40, or do we add it at the end? Or do nothing, as it is subsumed within the 77, a pregnant ending (David was age 77 when he died, Isaiah plays on that in 1st 77 syllables of Isaiah 52:13-15, which is where Chap 53 starts in Hebrew)?

Just thinking out loud here.

Anonynomenon | 24 Feb 2016, 16:50

K. I'll have to think about that later, but God just reminded me of the First Born Male law, as I was going to work. After the birth of a first born male, the child is unclean for 7 days (8th day is circumcision), and the mother is unclean for 33 more days, after which the child is to be presented to the High Priest. Maybe I got the details wrong. I'll have to look it up, but 7+33 is written into the Law.

Also, could you refresh my memory on the 3.5 variance regarding Jesus' birth. Doesn't it have something to do with David and a time overlap?

brainout | 24 Feb 2016, 17:27

Wow, that's a good ideea about birthing in the Law. the 3.5 variance seems to be due to David but I don't think that's the initial derivation of the delay, for why is it called the time of JACOB's trouble? But I find no 3.5 for Jacob, but only the 7.

The 3.5 is in the time lapse from 1Kings 1 until and counting 1Kings 6:1, when David should have been 80, construction starting in Ziv. Implication that maybe David died 3 years, 6 months prior? 3 years is at 1Kings 2:39, when Shimei is executed for rebellion (pretending he's just leaving to get his donkey or whatever).

So then 2 Ziv minus 6 would be 2 Bul. Not Chislev. What would be the import of that? Dunno.

What I do know, is that verses 19ff probably are a timeline for Church, but I can't prove that yet, either. Tentative first comments made here, showing your initial pdf:

• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWhe4wg2Q8Q
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4cVh_P5y-I
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gdCCBnhmd4

If for some reason you don't want those videos public, lemme know and I'll change it.

Anonynomenon | 24 Feb 2016, 21:23

I don't mind the videos. I'll watch them when I get home.

I'm interested in the 3.5 because I think Abraham was the cause. You said he matured 53.5 years early.Can you prove its 53.5 and not 54???

Cuz if 53.5, then the 14 years is really 13.5 years. Thats problematic.

My thinking is, maybe the 40 wilderness years in Exodus where a Gentile reimbursement for Abraham (40 of 53.5 years). Then maybe somewhere later, 3.5 years were paid back to Gentiles, thereby causing David's 3.5 year delay and therefore Jesus 3.5 year delay.

In order for Jacob's trouble to come from Jacob, we would have to prove that he accomplished something 3.5 years ahead of schedule.

WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE CALENDAR.: 14th Abib is Cross +3.5 days is Resurrection +3.5+40 is ascension + 10 is Pentecost. So what's with the 3.5 day gap between the Resurrection and the 40+10????

brainout | 24 Feb 2016, 23:31

Yeah, 53.5 years. We know it's 53.5 due to Noah getting his covenant on his birthday=14 days after vernal, but the original fiscal Adamic was based on autumnal equinox, hence six months early deadline for Abraham to get it. So the 3.5 for David adds up to 57, hence 50+7, etc. So now it's more about the timing when Christ dies, which is on the anniversary of Noah's birth.

I can't prove about 3.5 with Jacob. Thieme always taught it as 3.5 years, the subset 'Great Tribulation'. Why, I don't remember right now. Seems to me it should be 7.

Year Christ died, the calendar was not yet intercalated, so official date of 14 Nisan was 18 Nisan. He rises 3.5 days later, which would have been official First Fruits: Num28:26, based on the last day of Passover not first, and that year Passover ran Sat-Sat so Sat post-sundown began FF.

Pentecost is far simpler. It's the 57th day after Passover begins, since you start the 50 count at FF. So it starts WHEN He rose. so 40 days then 10 more. That's pretty conventional theology, as I remember.

Did I cover what you wanted covered? Again, all this is just thinking out loud.

Anonynomenon | 25 Feb 2016, 00:01

Well, lets ignore the official callendar and stick to the Solar year.

Pentecost= 14Abib+3.5(Resurrection)+3.5+40+10.

Or 3.5+3.5+40+10=57

Why did Jesus rise 3.5 days in and not 7? I know it has to do with Jonah, but why bisect the week?

It must have something to do with Abraham's 53.5.

The reimbursement must have been done prior to Jesus' death so that Gentiles could be gathered under Jewish time.

brainout | 25 Feb 2016, 00:34

53.5 years +3.5 years is not 3.5 days, and it does matter that He died on Real but ate on Official Passover, else First Fruits couldn't occur when it did. Technically He dies at the start of the REAL Passover week, but under the Law the Sanhedrin called the calendar. So the issue was, how does God keep His Promise? Well, here by the Set Aside date 10 Nisan being messed up as Passover by the Sanhedrin, so He eats. But 4 days later, Dies when Supposed to. FF is the sundown after the last day of official Passover, so His Death still occurs at the right time so He can be the promised FF.

The Jonah analogy was only a way to describe the fact the prophecy would be fulfilled, and to clue in the hearers that the calendar wouldn't be intercalated properly.

Pentecost is a function of OFFICIAL Passover. Sanhedrin count then again matters, so no 3.5 gap as you're thinking, because Pentecost was based on the official calendar, not on what should have been Passover.

Anonynomenon | 25 Feb 2016, 02:40

I got ya. Still, I think the 57 days of the Calendar reflect Abraham's 53.5 years, and I think the 3.5 days that Jesus spent in the grave have a connection to the first half of the Tribulation.

I don't know. If there is a connection, the Lord will show us soon enough.

Anonynomenon | 25 Feb 2016, 06:41

I reparsed the rest of the chapter. I think you'll find it interesting.

126=14+112

217+70=147

I changed the 105 back to 35+70. You might not agree with that, but its a syntactical grey area for me. I feel like verse 15 and 16 is more of a compound sentence with the parenthetical joining them together.

brainout | 25 Feb 2016, 07:03

Wow, much better, thank you! I'm beginning to understand why the metered paragraphs play as they do, have done but not posted more videos on the big picture nature of the paragraphs.

Now for some minor quibbles. Verse 15 in the reparse of your prior post s/b 44 not 35. Those last nine are counted in your verse 16 but don't belong there. So it parses instead as 44 and 16, not 35 and 25.

21a is not broken properly. You can't separate a noun from its adjective, so at very least megale belongs on the line with thlipsis, so is 10 syllables not 7. Break by clause, not by when you see sevens. Text flow goes by clause, and the writer sevens based on clause, not raw syllable counts like modern Judaism does.

So you'll notice 21b is 21 syllables when megale is moved back where it belongs, to 21a. So then you can see the 21s are paired, a sign of deliberateness and of correct parsing.

I get 50 syllables for verse 38. That's kinda important, to separate them, as the syntax calls for it.

There is a parallel between 57 days and the 57 years, with the 53.5+3.5, yes. Idea is to remind everyone of the timetable. As for changing back to 35+70, the parsing is wrong, as I tried to explain in the first comment video. You have to break by clause. At first when you're just trying to see if a passage ends sevened, it's not important. But to understand the meaning of each 'paragraph' you must parse by clause.

As for the subdivisions, well I'll look at that, hopefully it becomes clearer. Did you think about the paragraph themes?

Anonynomenon | 25 Feb 2016, 07:40

I watched your videos and I think the last half of the chapter are forecasted historical trends, but I cant say for sure until I continue with the timeline. I think 119 has a lot to do with the Angelic Conflict heating up, I mean that is what 120 represents (judgment due to rampant evil), right? What do you think about the connection to Gen 1???

I'd like to talk more about the themes, but I can barely keep my eyes open. I need too catch up on sleep.

brainout | 25 Feb 2016, 15:03

Understood. I've been obsessed with it too. In fact, just now noticed something:

119+168+189=476 same meter as Daniel 9 which you remember, but also

126+308=434 which is also in Daniel 9 (twice, first in Daniel's meter then the famous 62 weeks' reply) and was Paul's total meter for Eph1:3-14.

The two references and their ties to Isaiah 53, Psalm 90, Noah (Gen 7 and 8) are too bald to be coincidental or math errors. This has to be our smoking gun. No wonder God hired you to do this one.

More shocking: remember GeneYrs.xls and how Christ dies on the 1470th anniversary of the original Exodus? Well guess what? 560+476+434=1470!

And guess what again? Mary used 217 meter so that's how the Lord closes the chapter too, and then look: 217x2=434! Guess you've got all the proof you need that your total meter count is right!!

GET REST, k?

Anonynomenon | 26 Feb 2016, 05:22

said in your videos.

119 is clearly growth under persecution. The connection to Gen 1:1-5 paints a picture of violent conflict.

168 seems to have something to do with misunderstanding the chronology of prophecies. Kinda like post-millennialism. Where is 168 in other meters???

189 is 21 more than 168, so maybe by this point the Church has learned not to follow the snake oil prophets. I guess it means growing out of doctrinal naivety, learning not to spit in God's face. Isaiah 53:5-10 uses 189 to show how Jesus was put to grief for our sins, but when he returns, the tribes will mourn for the Messiah they pierced. That is an obvious reference to Isaiah. So for the Church, 189 is realizing that Jesus died for us, and sparks an appreciation for that.

126 is definitely playing off of Isaiah 53:2..."tender shoot". For the Trib believers, this parable is a clear warning to watch for the return of the tender shoot, to know the season. Then Isaiah 53:8..."And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land"....notice how Jesus says "this generation will not pass", "and heaven and earth will pass"

The 112 portion of the fig tree parable has a lot to do with recognizing the seasons, and the heavens and earth. It goes nicely with the 112 of Gen 1:12-18.

308 of course, has to do with Noah, but Jesus uses it to emphasize alertness. For Noah, watching for dry land. For Great Trib believers, alertness in watching for Christ. For Church, alertness in being ready for the Rapture. Paul's use of 308 is more complicate, like looking at the end result.

217 is 70+147. The 70 in verse 45-46 is indication that faithful servants will mature, since 70 is a voting period for believers to mature. The 147 looks like its in the Magnificat (verse 52) "He puts to flight, those of haughty men by means of their own thinking, beliefs; He lowers the powerful from their thrones". That statement is a Smoking Gun of its own. Jesus uses 147 syllables to describe how He will personally put the wicked servants to shame. As a whole, the 217 of Matt 24 matches the 217 of the Magnificat; overcomers will rule, cosmic believers will lose their throne. In Luke 1:76, Zecharia uses 217 to identify John the Baptist as a servant 'preparing the way for our Lord'.

THIS IS AMAZING!!!!!!! I'm willing to bet that the Meter is how the Trib Believers will super mature in within 7 years. If this was taught in Church today....well, I'd like to think a lot more would grow up.

Let me know what your thoughts are.

brainout | 26 Feb 2016, 07:13

I've seen a 168 but don't recall where. Two 84's, though, so it need not be anywhere else to be meaningful.

70+147 isn't especially meaningful, but the 40 ellipsis IS. Mary's 217 stops at Christ age 56, 40 yrs from Mill. Matt 24 has 40 added by Matthew.

434 years before Christ was scheduled to die, Malachi was written. I'm not sure all of why He's using 217x2. It cannot be coincidental.

Matthew used 476 and 427 for his datelines in Matt 1.

Anonynomenon | 26 Feb 2016, 07:44

So you think there is a 40 between the 70 and 147??? I'm pretty sure there is an ellipsis in that particular spot, but I don't know if its 40. Jesus is separating the good servants (70) from the evil (147). So there should be a number to act as a spacer. By the time we reach the 70+147, Jesus' age at 96 would have been way overshot. I think the point of these historical trends is to show that Church would collectively vote to completely overshoot the 4200 schedule.

I think the 70 is especially meaningful in the sense of maturity BECAUSE of its relationship to 147...good servant vs bad servant.

I got a few ideas to test, but I have to talk it over with God first, then sleep on it. I'll let you know tomorrow.

brainout | 26 Feb 2016, 11:11

Well, infra-text ellipses can exist, but they always balance to something in the total. Isaiah 53 had some of those. More often, the ellipses are equidistances fore and aft of the block of text. But yeah, if Isa 53 can use two infra ellipses, anyone can.

Isaiah total with ellipses was meant as First David birth to last David death, so was 1078, with 252 ellipsis between 52:15 and 53:1 (diff being when David died at age 77 and when Isaiah is counselling Hezekiah in 714 BC). Second ellipsis was 364, just after Isa 53:10 (covering intertestamental period), picking up again with the last 70 years (starting at 33BC which of course this Matt24 is tagging too).

Big patterns are 560x3+7. Individualized 84+63+21+70+84+28+105+105=560 +119+168 (two eighty-fours) +189 = 476 + 126+308=434 +217 so 560+476+434+217, with the sum of the first 3 = 1470, the 490x3rd anniv of orig Exodus, when Christ actually died (to the very day).

Uou can examine the other meters via LukeDatelineMeters.htm Else pdf. First two pages also have a precis map for all Chapter 1 meters I've done so far

I'm pretty sure the Lord is creating a new Genesis. 1050 was the total by the end of what we call Gen 1, but syntactically it goes on until 2:3, totalling then 1141 syllables. Seems like the Lord is creating a new one beginning 30 AD, but adding 560 to 1050 and then deducting 14. Not sure why adding another 560. THEN adding the 91 again.

Anonynomenon | 26 Feb 2016, 18:56

Notice how the theme of 70+147 summarizes that of vs 1-14. Its a bookend, similar to what Isaiah did with the twin 133's (from prophecy to reality).

brainout | 27 Feb 2016, 03:11

Okay, I'll go look at it. BTW, I have made but not yet posted a lot more Matt 24 vids, colorcoding in the later ones, the NASB trans for the sevened 'paragraphs' to show how meter elucidates text meaning (since many are so unfamiliar with the idea, they think I'm talking stupid Bible codes). LOL finally got my onscreen recorder to work on the laptops.

Playlist made, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWhe4wg2Q8Q&list=PL1bv_xPIih3fs-vKfMgiVbt4fmi3Xs3Yf

Will be posting the other vids over the weekend. Somehow I got exhausted by all this (I always fall asleep when doing the meter), so just woke up now. Gimme some hours, I don't want to spam the videos, but load them up a few at a time.

Anonynomenon | 27 Feb 2016, 03:36

yeah. I'm still pretty exhausted too. I never really got enough rest, but thank God for Saturday. I think tomorrow, I'll really learn the full meaning of the Sabbath, lol. 😁🕺

Just let me know what you think about vs 1-14 being CONTEXTUAL BOOKENDS with the 70+147. Don't worry about number patters right now, just syntax and context.

I'm also going to try and establish a timeline with at least the first half tomorrow, I'll post the doc, when I get somewhere with it.

brainout | 27 Feb 2016, 04:23

Okay, well I see the text tie, but not meter tie. Total count is 560-105 through v.14, and that last metered paragraph even at 70+147 (why 147), not ringing any bells. If we say the 70 is meant to overlap (but where else in Bible is that technique followed?) then 455+147=602, what does that mean?

I guess I'm not following why you think this is important.

Anonynomenon | 27 Feb 2016, 05:05

Because, I think the ellipsis is 308. That's an idea that I had last year, but I had no way to back it up. Now it makes much more sense.

70+308=378. That 378 is in Genesis 1:1-13....the separation of water from dry land (the violent sea of people from the nikonti standing on Christ as a bedrock foundation) and the every tree bearing fruit after its own kind (winners produce the works of the spirit, losers produce stubble...parable of the vine dresser)...the key is sorting by separation, and what separates the cosmic believers from the spiritual is spiritual alertness/readiness (hence the 308).

Here is the finishing touch: 308+147=455...bookending the first 455 of verses 1-14. 💡

If with the 308 ellipsis, it creates a speculative palindrome (308+70+308). The metered 308 emphasizes alertness, the elliptical 308 works with the 70 to show sanctification, and with the 147 to bookend the entire chapter.

I thought I was wrong, but the idea keeps following me. I'm worried that it might be an internal bias.

brainout | 27 Feb 2016, 05:59

Okay, then you have to test against the total. 1687 +308? 1995, which is 105 shy of 2100. Meaning? It has to have meaning. Ellipses are designed to convey doctrinal meaning like anything else. So what would it be? It will be specific, and that's what you'd have to prove.

Anonynomenon | 27 Feb 2016, 06:25

I know. That's what I plan on working on tomorrow. In my first attempt, last year, the 308 had something to do with the feud between Bloody Mary and Queen Elizabeth. The result was the end of the persecution of the Protestants by the Catholics. The idea is the "wicked servant beating his fellow servant", and as a result, losing his throne. I realize that the Protestant Reformation went stale fast, but without the Protestants, there would be no America, no R.B.Thieme, no freedom of thought. I'll have to find my notes from last year to give you specifics.

I saw your videos. I came to some very similar conclusions myself. The part with the sun turning black and the moon not giving light; I think the moon is called the bride of the sun in one of the Psalms, so it could be a 'Pastor-congregation' relationship. Because Pastors blackout (doctrinally), the congregation does not give its reflecting light, therefore the Stars of Heaven fall from the kingdom (believers don't grow, therefore they go to outer darkness), and the Power class of heaven is restructured (the seats of aborted kings need to be filled).

The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

brainout | 27 Feb 2016, 08:18

Okay, well the argument claiming a specific future period will have to be compelling, since so far there is NO timeline provided, but only sevened paragraphs of trends for CA. Even so, who knows, we'll never live long enough to find all the ways this meter rhetorical style is used, so have to consider every hypothesis...

brainout | 28 Feb 2016, 01:58

Here's another thought to keep in mind: The Lord goes FULL CIRCLE when he reaches v.45. Meaning, 1470 is the number of years from initial Exodus to His Actual Death, to the very day. 1470 syllables from the start of v.1 to the end of v.44, so on one accounting that's his starting point. EXODUS theme: Israel leaves Egypt, He leaves the world, topic is about Church and later the world, leaving history as we know it, instead being gathered into the Mill at 2nd Advent.

So it's a big picture. But why the 217? Doubled, that's 434. As if Israel's history was the focus of the first 1470 (HE is the purpose of history), and then ellipsis of 217x2? At both ends, traces to nothing pre-Exodus of import. But what if 217 standing for CA, maybe updating it, and no ellipsis other than the 40-years-to-Mill endpoint? So Paul uses 434 because it's a doubling pun?

Or what if that 217, akin to what you're starting to think, is a kind of State of the Christian Union address? Since Dan9:24-27 is 231, and He's saying that at his exit, the accounting balance remains the 14? Tying to Mary at the same time, since the Trib is really Chanukah II, another claim of Messiah Returned?

Anonynomenon | 28 Feb 2016, 07:01

I haven't had much time to work on this today. The 1470 is obviously exodus, but can we find an event corresponding to that around 1500 AD??? I spent some time looking, but couldn't find anything. If we can find something, that would rule out an ellipsis prior to the 1470th syllable.

sorry, wish I had more to bring to the table here.

Anonynomenon | 29 Feb 2016, 05:48

I'm posting this now so that I can remember it later as I compile a timeline. If 63 is indeed a second dateline, then 30 AD+63=93 AD or if you want, 4199 YoW. That's pretty close to John's writing of Revelation. In fact, the disciples are asking Jesus about the timing and sign of His return, and the Book of Revelation is exactly that, in detail.

So maybe, Matt 24 was written in 31 AD, months after Jesus' death.

brainout | 29 Feb 2016, 08:51

No, John dated Rev at 88/89 AD, JohnDatelineMeters.pdf. Unless you find something wrong with my parsing (pls check).

That still doesn't rule out a 31AD actual date, for the FISCAL might render it 31, at the start of the year. Since we are using calendar not sacred nor civil Jewish year, we would still have it be 30 in our math.

Anonynomenon | 29 Feb 2016, 13:34

Your parsing looks good to me. I forgot that John wrote when Trib was supposed to start, not end. But still, 31AD+63= 94 AD, so maybe thats tagging when Mill was supposed to start. That fits with the disciples' questions.

I also notice that John used 364 syllables in Rev 1. So is John writing on Rosh Hashanah, with 364 days of the year remaining???

brainout | 29 Feb 2016, 14:30

Re 364: Well, seems like he's actually saying Noah (creation) can exit the boat (Noah=rest, remember), history ends, the Romans 8 pregnancy is ended at last. :) Am hoping that your study of Matt24 will shed light on Rev metering.

Yeah, could be a 94 tag too, but remember they wouldn't call it that. 94 would be Christ's AGE, so would be mid-Trib when the Abomination gets set up.

Varro's calendar was being used since Augustus. Wasn't a law yet when Christ spoke or Matthew wrote. But it has the same 4-year error our modern BC/AD does, and frankly is the cause of our error. Because, Roman historians all use the Varronic calendar, which has 4 extra years padded into it. So Rome's age is actually 4 years less than they were using, and they KNEW the error was there. So maybe when Bible uses dates, it corrects for the error. Not sure, but seems like sometimes, adjustments are made, not enough proof yet to say for sure.

Anonynomenon | 29 Feb 2016, 16:18

Ok, so lets try to narrow it down a little. The 63 is really 42+21, so what would be the importance of tagging 73 AD and 94 AD, or to be more specific, 4,179 YoW and 4,200 YoW? I know the disciples where asking about the End of the Age, so that could be a reference to 4,200, but what was special about 4,179?

brainout | 29 Feb 2016, 18:47

Well, if the 63 is really 42 then 21 that changes the dynamic of the meter. I didn't see a 42 occurring. If it's valid, then 73 would be either Masada or Temple Destruction, depending on whether Varro is left in or adjusted out. So you'd not have 94 in any event. John datelines his Gospel as 7 years after Temple Down.

The Lord would be age 73 when Temple down. All these numbers overlap because of the 4-year dating problem.

Anonynomenon | 29 Feb 2016, 21:56

Well, this is what the 63 looks like.

Its one paragraph, but its sub-sevened, so I assumed it was a pregnant dateline. It works pretty well as a pregnant dateline (tying to Masada and original Mill) the same way as the opening 40+44.

brainout | 01 Mar 2016, 02:53

Okay, I was thinking about your first draft. I counted the syllables and came up with the same result in your new draft.

So technically the two datelines are 84 and 42, which is even more pregnantly tagging Isaiah 52:13-15, and 53:12, to remind the hearers of it. The 63 is Isaiah 53:9-10, so cross references the meaning there as well.

So what is 42 years prior to, and after, his talking in say 30/31 AD (Roman historians today prefer the slash date system).

Anonynomenon | 01 Mar 2016, 04:52

Ok, well 42 years after 31 AD is probably Masada in 73 AD, the Temple fall was already tagged in the first 40 syllables, so Masada being the end of the quasi-trib would be the next fitting date, I would think so.

But since 21 is part of the paragraph, wouldn't that be included in the dateline to bring it to 63 syllables?

brainout | 01 Mar 2016, 05:53

No, the 42 is a separate and actually the most common dateline number in Bible I've found so far, after 56.

Gotta resolve for 12BC. LOL Quuirinius was consul then. Setup for Luke. But this has to have TEMPLE relevance, so need such an event. Augustus was appointed Pontifex Maximus, setup for Paul's clever use of kurios in eulogetos ho theos kai pater tou kuriou hemon Iesou Christou (sorry, I don't have the proper fonts on this laptop).

Remember that passage saying that the Temple had been under construction 46 years, when Christ said He'd rebuild it in 3 days? John 2:20, in the first year of His Official Ministry, so then 27AD (depending on fiscal), then 19BC again depending on fiscal, same time as Peter uses in his dateline 1 Peter (I assume you know that material).

I bet that's related, but then we have the 4 year problem to deal with. Herod's construction was in fits and starts. Probably something in Josephus, but that guy is so notoriously wrong in his dates, I don't want to trust him: he couldn't even get the Adamic timeline or David's death age right.

Anonynomenon | 01 Mar 2016, 06:23

I've been looking for hours. I cant find anything for 12 BC. Do you have any ideas, or history websites you might recommend?

brainout | 01 Mar 2016, 06:42

We're typing at the same time. I'm editing my post. Fell asleep, as I always do when trying to figure out meter. It overwhelms me. Am working on it again now, editing my prior post.

Anonynomenon | 01 Mar 2016, 06:59

ok, so assuming for the moment that 42 is the second dateline. So the 21 following the 42 is added to 31 AD? Is that how it works. I don't know that I quite understand what comes after the dateline.

brainout | 01 Mar 2016, 08:19

Well, that's what we have to find out, what the rest of the meter means. The 42 aft 30 is clear (or 31, depending on fiscal used), but prior is an issue. Datelines set doctrinal themes for the text. Has to be something related to Temple. Aft is clearly Temple, Masada or just Temple Down, depending on whether you use our calendar (Varro's) or Bible's internal BC/AD which adjusts for Varro's 4-yr error, sometimes.

I put a Twitter #Bible query re 12BC in case God causes someone to find it. I like you, can't find any specific event but surely there is one. I thought there was another meter reference in other NT books to 12BC but cannot find it. I DID find the 147, in Galatians, see LukeDatelineMeters.pdf or htm first page.

So right now I'm stuck.

The whole passage seems to be segmented into 1470 +217, with the latter a closing bookend to Magnificat. There are quasi-palindromes. 84+42=126 which is repeated, of course the 42+21, but 63+70 as another 133, so you really are onto something. Text subdivides into historical trends, obviously for CA which is the first and larger 'tribulation' on slow burn (Dan9:26 Groundhog day or as Robbie Dean put it, 'Time Bubble'), inserted into what should not have been a gap of more than 50 years (Gentile Time won't be part of the 490 in Daniel). So these quasi-palindromes elucidate the text to show a kind of insertion quality, for CA. But they seem trends, not specific years.

Gen1 meter seems to be a retrospective exposition, 'how we got here', with Moses dating his meter always in terms of past events giving rise to him writing the First Book. Is Christ maybe doing that too? Since the 1470 dates backward to the original exodus, versus Moses penning Pentateuch in year 40 of Exodus? So then the subsevens are maybe all backward dates? I dunno, just thinking out loud. Not sure the meaning of the Gen1 meter is as I depicted it, only sure of the numbers and the plausibility of that hypothesis.

The lesser subsevens all have meaning just like they do in other passages, so what's the 'story' they tell to interrelate with the text? Not sure yet. God will let us know. This is the hardest part of dealing with the meter.

Anonynomenon | 01 Mar 2016, 09:00

I'm stuck too, but I'm mapping forward from 31 AD. I made two comparative charts, one using 42 as second dateline, the other using 63.

If we use 42 as a second dateline, the results are redundant whether you factor in Varro's error or not; either 70 AD will be tagged twice, or 73 AD will be tagged twice. I don't see the point in that, and it doesn't fit the text well in my opinion.

I'm more in favor of chart B, but I've hit a dead end. Take a look, maybe it will inspire thought.

I've got some ideas to test tomorrow, but its to late now. I'm calling it a night.

brainout | 01 Mar 2016, 09:10

Okay, I looked at your docx. Could be something like that, but you're going past the two datelines. Usually there are only two, unless the whole passage is a timeline. Which, it could be, but my brain is out, I see the meter tagging doctrines and other Bible passages, not yet any firm annual timeline. But, maybe there is one, just talk with God, He obviously hired you to do this.

Thought-jogging ideas, here are some important numbers:

The 560+476=1036, 14 shy of the 1050 in Gen 1's close (Translated chapter ending). I don't know if the Lord's 560 is playing on Moses' 560, which was about yrs since Jacob went to Haran, or if He's parallelling that 'exodus'. The 476 is clearly playing on Daniel 9's meter (from v.4 to 14, where Daniel closes his legal indictment recitation of the Kings). Idea that 14 years remain 'unpaid' on Israel's time. Text is end verse 31. So maybe can read as retrospective exposition, since both (maybe) Gen1 and (definitely) Daniel 9 are doing that.

That takes you, from a starting point date of original Exodus (since the total is 1470 to 30AD), to 404 BC. Why? It was the end of the Peleponnesian War, and 70+ years after Esther. Playing on the Daniel Man of Time? Why? Malachi was penned maybe around 397, end of the voting period. So this would be seven years prior. What was going on in Israel then? Guess the book of Malachi will tell us. But we've not parsed it yet.

Of course, the next 434 would then take you to 30AD.

So that's full circle, same rhetorical meter style as Daniel 9, similar to Psalm 90; the 1050 is the full-circle point in Gen 1 (there is always a full-circle point in large meters).

If so, then the 217 goes forward in time, likely syllable by year, but what if it is also sevened? As in 217x7? I'm just speculating. The product is 1519, before adjusting for the likely 40 ellipsis. So if we are to play with some specific AD year, it could be 1549 or even 1589, assuming the 40 isn't added prior to sevening.

WAIT! I get it now! Well, at least on one 'layer' of usage:

• Daniel 9:24-27 is 231 (just look at the doc in vid desc, it's short and clear, no need to watch video).
• Magnificat deducts 14, so 217. Timeline picks up where Daniel left off in his Man of Time, using his 73 meter, Mary picks up at initial Chanukah , since Christ would be born on Chanukah 4BC per Haggai2, then measuring forward to His Age 56, 40 years prior to Mill (as I believe you already know). Paul datelines his meter there for Eph1:3-14.
• Christ thus closes out for CA, as a Chanukah II theme, as a bookend, enfolding Dan 9:24-27 as a pregnancy idea (source of Paul's frequent use of plerow, probably, notably in Gal 4:4 which is a play on Chanukah = Saturnalia) -- Matt 24:45-51, also at 217, in your reparsed pdf.

So He's TAGGING as a 'sandwich'. So now we read Mary first, then Daniel, then what He says as a kind of 'map' for CA: 217+231+217=665? 95 sevens. Maybe the total is not important. But the idea, is.

Should be more meaning, of course. But the Chanukah II is clearly in view, as that's the theme of Rev. Sanctification of the Defiled/Destroyed Temple, Eph2 walls, something like that!

I shouldn't be allowed to see this, and live.

Anonynomenon | 01 Mar 2016, 19:19

I thought all meters were timelines. If not a timeline, then would it be purely doctrinal?

I also noted this: 84+63=147, acting as an opening bracket, which is then closed at the end with the final 147.

Both 147 involve servants/disciples recieving instruction and revelation, to servants who desire to know what to watch for.

The disciples went to Jesus in private, just as servants will be separated and jugded as indiviuals.

Then we have the 21+70+84+28+105=308, as precidence for my hypothetical 308 ellipsis toward the end.

So the 308 has to do with watching? How do you watch? By abiding in Christ, watching for false prophets, false christs, etc, as not to be mislead.

So the first 147 initiates servitude, then the following 308 syllables instruct how to watch as part of service, then the 308 in reference to Noah is the command to watch as a servant, then the elliptical 308 would be the reality of watching/serving, leading into the final 147 which is the fulfillment/judgement of discipleship.

Thats the best I can explain it for the time being. Just look at the 308s and 147s and see for yourself.

I feel that the 560 is telling us to use this historically, for forecasting hystorical trends. Need more time to think.

brainout | 01 Mar 2016, 19:57

Yeah, well I was trying to catch up on sleep when this hit me. Maybe the Lord is balancing the time books, so yes it's a timeline but like Gen1 is under the text to explain WHY Matt24 prophecy has to come to pass, juridically? Look:

1440 BC, original Exodus. Moses was 80 years old. So, Matthew tacks on 40 to create Matt 24:1, since Moses lived another 40 years. (Kinda no brainer accounting, really. Daniel did the same thing for David's reign, in accounting time from Dan 9:6 when he begins the retrospective exposition on Israel's sins via kings recounting, that's what tipped me off to the style here.)

So now it really is a straight historical chronology, since past is prologue, to explain why the future is a juridical payback on the past, just as Daniel 9:24 promised.

So next up, the time of Joshua, 44 years. Thus 84, cute pun.

Now we have to check the Book of Joshua and Judges, which I've not yet done, but presumably the next 350-44 syllables cover that time. You'll see Paul do a similar accounting later on, in Acts 13, starting at verse 15. So maybe this metering was a common accounting of time, for Paul is talking to unbelieving Jews.

So all your subsevens are historical benchmarks we should be able to find in Bible. So look at this genius accounting, maybe something like this: 1440-40 (Moses dies) -44 (Joshua dies plus some interregnum) -42 (Judge1) -21 (Judge2) -21 (Judge3) -70 (Judge4) -44 (Judge5) -40 (Judge6), -28, total 350 years, same as #syllables in Psalm 90. Hardly a coincidence.

After that, your bookended twin 105's; you've subdivided the second into 35 and 70. So what and who do these years cover? Have fun playing with that.

Upshot is, 490 years after the Exodus, Temple Dedicated, 950 BC, 1Kings 9. then follows a 70. That's 560 years, and at this point it's 880 BC.

Next in the meter? 476, same as Daniel uses (sum of years=syllables in Dan 9:4-14). So now we're down to 404 BC (why that's a benchmark I'm not yet sure). Short of the 14 already, during that time Temple went down and went back up, Esther and Nehemiah have occurred. 7 years to end of voting period (the historical 70 from 466/7 to 396/7). Seven short, because due to the 49 years the Temple was out, seven more sabbatical years are owed on them which cannot play pre-Messiah. So He's deducting the shortfall because He IS alive now, and the 62nd week has only begun, in 30 AD. Technically He's supposed to live another 7 years to finish that unpaid seven on the sabbaticals, but will not, so He's ACCOUNTING for it.

Imagine knowing your own death and explaining why you'll die in advance, to others. That's what He might be doing, here.

Because next, he uses the 434, which brings us to.. 30 AD.

Now the problem is, technically 950 BC was SEVEN YEARS AFTER the beginning of a new historical 490: Temple was dedicated 3156 YoW rather than 3150, implying it was dedicated 7 years late on the historical timeline, although it was dedicated by the deadline for Moses' 490 Time Grant (which ran out 950 BC shown in GeneYrs.xls which I believe you already know).

So this might be our smoking gun re when that extra 7 began, and the Lord is accounting for it.

As for your question about timelines, not all metered passages have to be timelines. And if timelines, not all have to be prophetic annual trackers. Maybe this one is, but right now I merely see the accounting usage, as described above. So maybe what you're trying to do is still in some way correct, but if so it will fit like a jigsaw puzzle. Kinda like the acounting version of the meter does, here. Play with it, see what God shows you.

Anonynomenon | 02 Mar 2016, 03:10

I figured it out. It was so simple that I could just slap myself for overlooking it. The 455+105+119+168+189+126+308+70 (maybe 308 ellipsis)+147 are chronological ages of historical trends counting forward from 31 AD. Just compare the year ranges to your genyrsxls chart. The trends fit Matt 24 like a glove. I couldn't find single events, because they are trends.

That's were I stopped taking notes to do my happy dance. You already mapped out the trends in geneyrs. Matt 24 just proved them to be true 👍 .

I gotta get some sleep tonight. I'll refine my notes and hopefully post them tomorrow, then I'll try mapping retro-active trends.

brainout | 02 Mar 2016, 06:37

Wow. Well, if this interpretation is true, then the NT books' meters will be adding to it or clarifying it in some way, and the same patterns will repeat. We have to be careful not to make the mistake of one swallow equalling a summer.

The 490 is repeated and played on throughout Bible always with the same root meaning. So that part is no problem. But for these other numbers to mean what you're claiming, there will have to be repeated evidence of them being used the same way. Same idea as proving a keyword in Bible, is to prove a key number's doctrinal value.

Also, a true prophetical timeline will COMMENT on those future events, as prophecy always does, with keywords and usually BITING prose.

There will also be a meter theme. Like in Psalm 90, 350 syllables = years = 70 x 5 1050s, plan of Time. Isaiah 53 metrical theme was First David to Last David, 1078 years=syllables, including the two ellipses of 252 and 364 (which God will use in his Reply to Daniel).

So what's the cumulative meter theme in 1687? Or, that plus what ellipses of Time? Only one way to know, to see how the individual meters and text, interact...

verses 1-2 =84. First cum 7, so is dateline. Matt adds v.1, narrative 40 syllables, Apostles admiring temple, then Lord's words, how not one stone will be on another.
verse 3a, 42, 2nd cum 7, so is dateline. Disciples asking when these things will happen,
verse 3b, 21, sign of coming end of age.
verse 4, another 21, Lord warns don't be deceived,
verses 5-6 = 70, warning many falsely claim to be The Christ amidst wars and rumors of wars.
verses 7-9 = 84 ending bookend, wars and earthquakes etc. but the beginning of birthpangs (see Rom 8).

At this point the total (for bookends are always special paragraphs) = 84+42+21+21+70+84=322. It's quasi-palindromic, and factors for later meters are inside this one. (84, 126, 147, 168, 308).

verse 10, 28 how many believers will fall away (seed parable reminder) and hate each other.
verses 11-14, 105 how lying and deceiving others, Law-lessness (anti-doctrine), love grow cold, but stick with it until the end to be delivered from disaster (later in Heb 10 end), for preaching/witnessing the good news will continue to the whole world, all nations -- and then the end will come.

New total is 84+42+21+21+70+84=322 + 28+105 = 455, but

verses 15-18 (fix the math, no cum sevening until) = 105, too: text is on when you see the Abomination.. don't even stop to go home, just run.

Sum through v.18 becomes 560, very familiar in Bible. So [if] it's meant to be 590 AD, the above text will have biting relevance to events during that time, syllable by year like Paul later does in Eph1:3-14 for the first 434 years of Church. And, maybe this would be the seminal chapter from which Paul draws his style.

560-322=238, which is 70 less than 308. 70+56 (for the 57) is 126, a later meter.

So need to do that kind of analysis for the rest of the chapter, to see how text and sevened meter interrelate, to see the 'trends'. For if prophetical, the text will interact with the future time, as I tried to show in the Peter and Paul videos. Text ends up being very satirical and biting, if you have a real prophetical timeline expressed.

Anonynomenon | 02 Mar 2016, 17:47

Well, the Temple is only mentioned in the opening passage, but it seems like the theme might be Replacing the Temple. The slow burn tribulations of the Church Age seems to separate the humble from the arrogant, and forces believers to either mature or degenerate. That would explain the 147 bracketing the beginning and end of the Chapter. The end result being Rev 3:12.

brainout | 03 Mar 2016, 03:55

Okay, I see what you're saying but I don't see 147 bracketing the chapter. It's not standalone in the beginning. You're taking separate meters 84 then 42 then 21 to get it. That's fine, and even clever; but bracket is when the same meter is used, not an addition of submeters. Moreover, what does 147 mean? I don't know, do you? As a meter, pan-Bible? What is its doctrinal meaning? Meter is not merely a counting mechanism for the Divine calendar. It always elucidates the text. So what is 147?

Try comparing the text in the beginning up to 147, then compare text at the ending 147, see if you can find commonalities to hint at any doctrinal meaning. I know 147 comes up in other dateline meters, as we've discussed prior, but I've not seen it enough to know what possible doctrinal significance it has. Possibly, it has an 84+42+21 causality significance, here defined? So then comparing text would be relevance, in case the 147 here is seminally defined? For we know the individual meanings of 84, 42, 21.

Yes, Replace the Temple theme, not only prophecy but policy, the very purpose of Church. It was always true that the stone building was to be replaced with Living Stones filled with Him as The Temple the temple depicts.

Anonynomenon | 03 Mar 2016, 04:31

84+42+21=147

then

solid 147

What I see is Jesus introducing the idea of Temple destruction, with the disciples asking when and what signs to watch for.

Then the last 147 shows the end result.

So the first 147 is the destruction of the stone structure, and the last 147 is the construction of the Eternal Temple. This would only apply to the Church Age believers, so its not stated overtly, since the face value of the text is for Tribulation believers. But for the mystery Age of Church, the meter brings out a Mystery Doctrinal interpretation.

Anonynomenon | 03 Mar 2016, 04:44

According to the Magnificat, the 147 is;

So what do we have in the 84+42+21=147. The disciples are PROUD of Temple, and Jesus says it will be totally leveled. The reason the 147 is broken up is because the dialogue, which introduces the chapter. It looks like a bracket to me, because from syllable 147 to the end, its all about spiritual growth in an antagonistic environment.

Ephesians 1:3-6 is 56+21+7+21+28+14=147. We are elected, cleansed, and showered with Grace for His Glory. Same idea in Rev 3:12. Paul didn't use a solid 147, but he built up to it.

brainout | 03 Mar 2016, 04:54

Okay, again you make good points. I guess I differ in that the last 147 in Matt24, seems more to be a warning that the believer will be destroyed like the 2nd Temple will be, if he doesn't grow up. Which yes, does tie to that 147 in the Magnificat text, but NOT to its meter. For one thing, there have to be a parallel 147 syllables with text that relates. Going from syllable 115 in the beginning of verse 51 in Magnificat, and ending at syllable 150 won't work. There is no 147 meter even in combination, in the Magnificat.

Luke's addition of 4 syllables, possibly to adjust for Varro's padding of 4 years in the Roman calendar (origin of our BC/AD problem), does close the end of clause 1 in verse 52, “He has brought down rulers from their thrones" .. at 147 TOTAL for the Magnificat. So meter count would go from its start, kai eipen Miriam, all the way to “He has brought down rulers from their thrones", which is not syntactically, an ending.

Anonynomenon | 03 Mar 2016, 05:47

Yeah, I see what you mean now, thanks.

I'm looking for other occurrences of 147, but all I'm finding is Ephesians 1:3-6. Do you know where else it might be?

I still think its bracketing though. The 84+42+21 is introductory, it stands apart from the rest of the text.

edit:

Ok, so in both Ephesians and Galatians, Paul used 147 to refer to God's Glory (probably the same idea as Romans 8:28--don't know if that's metered).

Temple is supposed to glorify God, but when Israel used Temple for religion, it fell both times. So wicked servants do not glorify God and are therefore cut to pieces and cast into outer darkness, similar to how Temple was utterly destroyed. Yes, its a warning, but a warning that mirrors the Temple, and for the Bride, Temple is an Eternal status. This ties heavily to the Outer Darkness and Three Type Salvation conversations.

brainout | 03 Mar 2016, 06:46

Well, Paul's meter starts in verse 3, which Peter tags in 1Peter. Paul's 147 ends at verse 6, and is technically 91+56, which would have a doctrinal meaning of Decree Completed (on building Temple aka Body, but also 'season') and VOTE CRITICAL. So now how does that meaning tie to the other idea of 84+42+21?

There was another 147, in Galatians. It's a dateline meter on kings vying over Anatolia, which caused Rome to gain suzerainty over the region, setup for control over Israel. That was also meaningful because Galatians were in Anatolia, idea of showing God's hand in uniting things politically, so they could get the Gospel from Paul. So I guess you could say tangentially or sotto voce, it means Temple Building, since that's Paul's main theme in all his letters. The 147 is 98+49, and the latter is pregnant for years Temple was down when Daniel prayed (Daniel's first dateline meter). The 98 is a Millennial meter, Christ in his 98th year (age 97, or maybe ON his 98th birthday) when Mill was originally scheduled to begin.

I'm beginning to get the impression that 147 is significant, alright, but as a kind of ombudsman, since we're seeing different combos of subsevens used to make it. But we need to see more occurrences.

Anonynomenon | 03 Mar 2016, 08:05

I just had a look at what you wrote above. I didn't have time to look into it before, but now I see what you mean. So by Chanukah II, you mean Temple Replacement???

You came to that conclusion with the 217, and I did the same with the (possibly) bracketing 147's.

So from the occurrences of 147 that we have available, the only one that is not sub-sevened is Matt 24:47-51. That in itself sets it apart from Paul's usage, which usually involved God's Glorification. Verse 47-51 is good servant vs bad servant, which is the only way for believers to Glorify God (abiding in Christ).

Notice in the beginning of Matt 24:1-3

84 is the Decree for Temple fall: it is no longer Glorifying God
42 is an inquiry as to when Christ will plunder: the 42 in the context of Isaiah 53:12 (sharing the spoils)
21 what signs indicate the built up to the Glorification of Christ at His return?

What about 91+56?
91 could be Decree Completed due to Season Termination
56 why is season terminated? Due to negative volition Isaiah 53;1-3, "who has believed"

So maybe Church Age terminated due to Negative Volition.

98+49?

98 Millennium at Christ's age of 98
49 God keeps His covenant (Dan 9:4)

so 98+49 is Father keeping His promise for the Millennium for Christ's Glory and for His own Glory, yet those who Glorify His Son reap the benefits.

brainout | 03 Mar 2016, 09:34

Yeah, could be. It's obvious God hired you for this, so whatever I say is only meant to stimulate you in your dialogue with Him. Matthew 24 has to be seminal for the NT meter patterns. I've no complete sense of what John's doing in his meters, except that he plays on Paul, but he must (like Paul) be tagging Matt 24, at least in Rev.

For me the big kicker is the whole, 1687. With what ellipses added? You think it is a forward timeline, I don't, but you may be right just the same. I've played with adding ellipses of 217 (which seems certain, bookending Magnificat), maybe an added 40 (because Matt24:1 are not Jesus' words), but then I come up with goofy endpoints if a timeline. It has to start, if a forward timeline, at 30AD or 70AD, but what if that start is verse 45, where the 217 begins? For He really is going full circle from Exodus to His Own Death Year, from v.1, if the 40 is in beginning ellipsis (versus His actual speech).

217 AD is the benchmark in Eph1:9, when Origen visits the Severan mothers to convince them to become Christian, which results in a pogrom and was the first time Peter was put on a Rome bishop list. Which was the beginning of the Rev17 harlot 'push', that became official under Constantine.

247 AD was the beginning of the Crisis of the Third Century.

But why benchmark that?

Anonynomenon | 03 Mar 2016, 16:56

Verse 3 and part of verse 4 is also narration, so Matthew's own words are 40+42+21+11=115.

Matthew's words are:

I don't know, I get what you mean...40 syllable setting intro.

The 1470 is evident without ellipsis, and I agree, it is obvious; First Passover to Last Passover.

Beyond that, I can't comment any further until I can try to establish parallel Timelines between NT meters...perhaps Ephesians and Revelation.

Anonynomenon | 04 Mar 2016, 05:59

I found something interesting. If you treat Matt 24 and Rev 1 meters as timelines, the years converge twice so far;

Syllable 126 in Mat 24:3a and syllable 70 in Rev 1:2a. They converge on the year 4263 YoW/154 AD (that's if Matt is writing late 4137 YoW and John in 4193 YoW).

Here is the parallel:

4263 YoW/154 AD: Maybe Polycarp's death. Wasn't he the Pastor of Smyrna? Did Paul tag him?

Then the second convergence is syllable 238 (matt 24:6) and syllable 182 (Rev 1:4) on 4375 Yow/269 AD.

Parallel:

So 4375 YoW is 269 AD????

I don't know, the convergences seemed kinda interesting, but I can't nail down anything specific. I would need to test more instances.

That's all for now.

brainout | 04 Mar 2016, 06:09

You want to check the math in your first sentence? Typo? We're both tired. Christ's own speech begins in verse 2.

As to your convergence post, you cannot guess on it until solving Matt 24 solo. And, when testing convergence, there must be some theme, not just a seeming coincidence of numbers. John's writing in 88 AD, so that's before Polycarp. Again, you need to know the theme of Matt24 and its own timeline first.

Anonynomenon | 04 Mar 2016, 06:27

Fixed the math, but not sure its relevant anyways. I'm tired. Maybe Ill get some where tomorrow.

brainout | 04 Mar 2016, 13:24

Understood. Jesus begins talking in verse 2. Matthew pads text for v.1 at 40, and there is slight padding with narrative in v.3 before the Lord speaks, including them speaking. After that, beginning with v.4 it's solid Him speaking. So test just that solid section, for some other meter-within-meter. Clues to any ellipses or meaning of the timeline should be in the padded syllable counts.

1470 is intended. 217 is intended. I don't know what ellipses to add, nor what 1687 signifies. Gotta find out, all those things.

Anonynomenon | 04 Mar 2016, 16:25

Matts padding is 40+10+42+21+11=124

Jesus' words are 34+10+1302+70+147=1563, which is 54 short 1617.

Dont know if it means anything.

1617 would be 483 short of 2100. So 483+53.5?

3.5 embedded for Gents followed by 3.5 for Jacob?

brainout | 05 Mar 2016, 03:14

Okay, lemme think over and talk to God about this. BTW, this is truly exciting stuff!

Anonynomenon | 05 Mar 2016, 03:19

While you're thinking, did you ever figure out Adam's 130 years, does it relate to Jacob's age entering Egypt with family? It might be related to the ellipsis, but probably not.

I gotta work early tomorrow, so this'll probably be my last post for tonite. Can't wait for what ever comes to mind tomorrow.

brainout | 05 Mar 2016, 03:46

Yeah, that 130 was on my mind this morning as I was falling asleep. Been on my mind since May 2004 (before I knew the meter), when I first started doing GeneYrs.xls.

I keep on wondering if God makes up that initial debit, but have been living with the ASSumption that it was a 490 initial loan, so that ANY time during it should someone supermature, the 'debt' of the 'time loan' would be considereed paid. But it keeps on showing up as an accounting item in the Bible datelines, so I wonder. I tried to balance it, here; search on '130'. There's a connection, but I'm not sure what it is. I failed so far, to find the answer.

One interesting thing in your numbers, is the Janus quality of the 53.5 on either side of the 1617. Is that a coincidence, or does it mean something? I don't know

Checking padding:
v.1 40
v.2 ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς 10 syllables . Sum so far is 50. Heh. But what if δὲ ἀ is one syllable? Then 49!

v.3 63, since what they say is not part of His Speech, to verify if He's metering as HE talks. (If yes, then Matthew's padding is deliberately metered around it as a kind of commentary on the text's meter, as well.)

v.4 καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς 12 syllables! But you properly did the krasis for καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς , in which case 74+49.

But that would mean what Christ actually said, is not metered.

Gonna go check the CNTTS apparatus for variants, in Bibleworks 9. Ok, in v.3 Codex Ephraemi (CatII Aland, 5th cent., only locus) has nine extra syllables in the padding, kanenanti tou ierou (sorry, I don't have Greek fonts on this machine) after twn elaiwn, and autou after mathetai.

Thing is, if 75+50, one extra would be pregnant 126. 9 means 134. Then krasis, so 133.

Even so, the net addition is 8 so entire chapter meter would be thrown off; of course, if only one CatII Aland mss has these words (true, Codex Ephraemi): then likely they weren't ever in the original text.

Which implies, there are more variants to test. One of the best uses and probably the pristine use of the meter was to verify proper text, since in ancient times they memorized (carrying around papyri was inconvenient).

I didn't test all the chapter for variants, but these were the only additions in verses 1-4. The rest don't change the meter (i.e., are only spelling changes or lacunae in lesser mss).

Go get rest.

Anonynomenon | 05 Mar 2016, 04:13

K. Well the reason I bring up 130 is because I thought the 54 disqualified my 308 ellipsis theory until I saw Matthew's 124 padding; 124+54+130=308. I know that 54 is related to 57, therefore Noah in the Boat for 308, 315, then 365. Then you have Enoch who lived 365 years, and Adam dying when Enoch was 308.

Its connected, but I don't know why or how, or if it's even applicable in this case.

Jesus words in Matt 24 total to 44 syllables up to the point that He speaks completely uninterrupted for the duration of the Chapter. 44x7=308.

I also noticed that Jacob lived to be 147 years. All these things must have some connection to the meter...

k. that's it. good nite.

brainout | 05 Mar 2016, 06:12

Okay, well my results differ from yours, so I can't add anything else at this time. I see where you're getting the 44, but don't see why you include the 63, since they aren't His Words, since we're testing to see if Matthew is wrapping text which the Lord originally spoke AS meter.

As for Jacob's age being 147 when he died, if that were a significant meter for that reason, then we should find text to support the claim. I don't see how one can just assume a 130 ellipsis since it's not sevened, and where else would it be used that way? Ellipsis tends to be repeated, as it has doctrinal meaning too.

Now if what you're saying is valid, then God will elaborate for you. Good night!

brainout | 05 Mar 2016, 08:39

Okay, as previously posted, I found nine syllables of padding text in the Codex Ephraemi in CNTTS apparatus of Bibleworks9 which could maybe be added to Matt24. Problem is, it's the only witness, though technically doesn't exclude it: as shown in the Jude videos, meter is a great way to validate for textual criticism.

Bear in mind, that if you could actually SEE the originals here digitized, it might be obvious whether the text is in error. I'm using grammar and style litmii for inclusion/exclusion, and of course you might disagree.

UPSHOT: I see no reason to change the meter for the variants. Again, maybe you'll disagree.

Verse 5: same ms, adds hoti after legontes. Viable grammatically, but it's the only ms.
Verses 6-9, nothing (spelling changes, obvious dittography).
Verses 10-16, same.
Verse 17, possible post-positive de after ho, in Codex Bezae and ms 33 (latter is 9th century). I don't think the de belongs because v.17 elaborates, it's not a transition or a contrast with v.16.

Verses 18-19, nothing.
Verse 20, possible en fronting either or both cheimwnos and sabbatwi but most witnesses are for the latter, none Cat I or II and none early. Seems not part of Word, since Christ could be using Atticism here (omitting prep is an Atticism for drama, NT writers do it a lot).
Verses 21-28, nada.
Verse 29, possible ekeinen fronting thlipsin, but I doubt it. Locus is only mss 28. Including it, makes grammar seem wrong (negates uniqueness), and looks like dittography since ekeinwn occurs just after hemerwn.
Verse 30, nada.
Verse 31, unlikely tote after initial kai, only in Washingtonius (9th Cent Aland Cat 3). Kai is used in the same way, alone. Hebraism.
Verses 32-33, nada.
Verse 34, alleged de after amen, but I've never seen Him talk like that, nor is the phrase (with and without the period) found in the mss I have in Bibleworks. Several 9th cent witnesses add de, some Aland II.
Verse 35, nada.
Verse 36, alleged mou following pater in many late mss, all CatIII or worse. I really doubt it would be used, as Christ is counting his Deity ho huios ei me ho pater to show Both Divine.

Verse 38 is a doozy. Codex Aleph aka Sinaiticus, has kai fronting gamountes and that's a likely reading. It's not the UBS reading, which you seem to be using (Bibleworks' default reading is UBS with tweaks too). Depends on whether the Lord is playing on alliteration or slowing down for dramatic effect. The kai isn't required, but often would be used per item. They didn't use commas in real Greek. Commas were invented centuries later, are not part of the Autograph. Since verse 38 is 50 syllables (pregnant for Pentecost, when Noah leaves Das Boot) I very much doubt the extra kai is in there. On purpose.

Verses 39-44, nada.
Verse 45 has an extra ekeinov fronting hon but it's only in ms 28, 11th century, Aland II. Grammar doesn't work. A lot of later mss have autou or autou tou after kurios but in Bible usually that construction is used to imply the 'lord' isn't real, so doesn't fit this passage. (Koran slyly uses it a lot: 'his lord' rather than THE Lord.)

Verse 46 adds estin after makarios, but only in ms 124, 11th cent Austria text. Not the normal construction in His Speech, to add the verb, nor did search reveal any such phrase. It's more dramatic with verb in ellipsis.

Verses 47-51, nada.

Anonynomenon | 05 Mar 2016, 16:53

Unless I made a mistake (which is possible, cuz I have a hard time with numbers) I included the 63=42+21 with Matthew's words, not Jesus. All together, Matthew speaks 124 syllables.

brainout | 05 Mar 2016, 17:04

Okay, well make the case that way, if you think it's better. I was trying to remove all but Jesus' words to see if HE was deliberately metering as He talked. So the difference would be a doctrinal meter statement by Matthew the HS would add as a commentary on the text. But you do it your way, and btw -- the numbers drive me nuts too. I always (literally) collapse when doing meter counting/sleuthing, over and over again.

Anonynomenon | 05 Mar 2016, 22:24

But that's my point. Jesus doesn't speak at all in verse 3, its all Matthew quoting the Disciples im 42+21 syllables. Jesus speaks in part of verse 2 and from verse 4 to the end of the chapter.

If you want to test metering in Jesus' words, you need to remove ALL of Matthew including what the disciples spoke.

brainout | 06 Mar 2016, 04:54

Okay, went back and reread. I see your point, didn't seem to be the same meaning when I first read it, but you're right and I was too tired. I apologize!

Okay, so where does this padding removal leave us? With an unmetered 'Jesus said' text as a whole, but clearly metered in part. So after Christ dies 2 months later, when Matthew writes, he adds enough syllables to seven the whole.

I see where the 40 comes from, Christ's starting point in v.2 clearly included the 40, so v.1 adds that 40. So 124-40= (drum roll please) 84, clever. Yet more proof we have the right original Bible text, for those nutters who claim that this meter thingy is something goofball like Bible codes. Nope, it'a VETTING, ACCOUNTING meter for testing text memorization, retention, comprehension. Whew.

Pregnantly, 124/2 is 62, as in 62 weeks. Which, is the very week in which Christ talks, dying at its beginning rather than its Daniel 9:26 end.

So your query about the difference, 1687-124, 1563, not sevened, but TREBLED (521 threes). Romans 8:28 presaged, Daniel 9:24 illustrated, God makes good on the Promise. Heh.

I see that kind of metering a lot in the NT. Probably is frequent in the OT as well: take a trebling factor, add something neither sevened nor trebled, and the sum becomes a sevened number.

OK, but under the Holy Spirit Matthew does add 124, making 1687 total, with 1470 from original Exodus to Christ's death on what should have been Passover, 490x3, proof of Divine Fulfillment of the Exo12 promise. Plus, 217, same number of syllables as the Magnificat, which everyone then knew but wasn't put in a Gospel until Luke, nearly 30 years later (haha on that differential, since Jesus was 'about 30' end Luke 3).

So the big 'paragraphs' are 1470 and 217. Meaning what, when conjoined?

I played with adding another 217 and got 1904. Add 14 if instead you treat Daniel 9:24-27 meter as the ellipsis, though the Matt 24 text doesn't go to the end of Trib, but only its start, so maybe another 7. Or, another 40.

If an Exodus Theme for Church is intended as a parallel, then 1470, or plus all or any of those other meters above, means what?

More questions than answers.

EDIT!!!! I was just about to fall asleep (collapsing from this, as usual), when it hit me to SUBTRACT the 44 from the 1563: result? 1519, which is .. 217 SEVENS! Aka, 490x3 plus.. 49! Diaspora, the initial gap period=TempleDown time, reserved for the goyim had there been no Church!

Moreover, 1519-217 = 1302 = 186 sevens, and 182 = 62 x 3, parallel to the 490 x 3, stressing the Groundhog Day nature of Church as in 62nd week (really 69th, but the 62 is after the 49 in Daniel 9:26). No wonder Paul plays on 434, which is 217x2, BRIDGE.

Anonynomenon | 06 Mar 2016, 05:39

It's ok. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page (data wise).

Well, remember:

44+1302+70+147=1563 is short 483+54 of 2100, so yeah its got 62nd week written all over it, but if we remove the 147:

44+1302+70=1416. That is 54 years short of 1470. I don't know if that is important. Then of course, 70+54=124.

So does this mean an ellipsis of 54, or 124, or perhaps 124+54=178??? Does the 70+54=124 indicate the location of ellipsis??

edit:

ok, so why subtract the 44? And what's the meaning of 217x7?

If the 44 is a 'stand-alone', its not sevend, so is it 44x7=308. If we add 308+1302+70+147=1827?...which is 273 short of 2100. You remember my observations about 273 in Deut 3:50 right? 273x5=1365.

Anyways, I'm just playing with numbers here and shooting in the dark. Not very effective. However, its interesting how 308 never really leaves the picture, and I haven't seen 273 in a while.

brainout | 06 Mar 2016, 06:41

I just edited my last post. See highlight and then edit yours. I'm going to go faint now.

brainout | 06 Mar 2016, 11:17

One big meaning which has to be in the text+meter, has to be about Temple accounting.

But I'm baffled. Here's what I know, and you will remember: Temple dedicated 950BC, 1Kings 9, supposed to be at 1044th year (age 1043) by 4200 YoW when Mill was supposed to begin. There's your 44.

Christ actually dies in the 980th year of the Temple, ignoring that it was razed. The 49 is obviously downtime and the origin of the Gentile Time insertion played on in Dan9:26, but the 49 in its meter, belonged to Israel, so another 49 might be in ellipsis, in the meter here.

He was supposed to be born 3 years later (4106) and the Temple should have been dedicated 7 years earlier, hence the 10-year spread, with Him dying 2090 from Abraham's maturation. So 50 becomes 40. So too, the 54 you're trying to adjust, because 14 is left owed and unpaid, so only 40 remains.

Had He died on time 7 years later, it would have been 987th year of the Temple, but since it got started 7 years late, a) the lateness is cancelled out by His Early Death, and had it been dedicated in 3150, His Actual Death still occurs in what would have been the original 987th year.

Notice that 14 keeps cropping up. Which reminds us of the original timeline of Jacob.

How all that rebalancing gets resolved in the meter here, versus Church now being inserted as the 49 of history, I'm not sure. Maybe the imbalance, is the point.

Anonynomenon | 07 Mar 2016, 02:11

Wow, ok, so I need to work these numbers out here so I can come back to this post as a reference.

1a.) Abraham matured 54 years prior to 2100 YoW; 2100-54=2046 YoW.

1b.) Therefore Jesus was supposed to die 2100 years after Abraham's maturation, had Jesus been born 3 years later in 4106 YoW: 2046+2100=4146 YoW.

1c.) But of course, that didn't happen. Jesus was born 3 years early in 4103 YoW, and died 7 years early: 4143-7=4136 YoW (Beginning the 62nd week rather than ending it).

2a.) Temple was dedicated (on Yowm Teruah) 490 years after Exodus: 2666+490=3156 YoW

2b.) But Temple was supposed to be dedicated 7 years earlier: 3156-7=3149 YoW, which would have started the 3150th year after Adam's Fall:1050+1050+1050=3150 YoW.

I get it now. If Temple had been dedicated on time in 3150 YoW, it would've had 1,050 years to fill until Millennium in 4200 YoW. But since it was dedicated late, in 3156 YoW, it had 1,044 years to fill.

So was Jesus saying in His meter, that because of His early death, the Temple would not stand until Millennium (therefore falling in 70 AD)??? If the Jews had let Christ live to age 40, would they have remained Client Nation???

brainout | 07 Mar 2016, 04:53

Well, START of Year 3150 compared to END of year 3156, is 7.

Yeah, I think so. I'm still shaky in my understanding. It's been bugging me since 2004 when I first did GeneYrs.xls, why the Temple Chronology is so strange. I tried to map the Time Distances here: Ephesians1REPARSED.htm#TimeDistance

That's the same as the Eph1DecreeSyllablesREPARSED.pdf and Ephesians1REPARSED.doc.

Note the Temple Columns and rows. The only 490 balance is at Christ's Death. In the pdf or doc, if you page up one (p.134), you see another set of timeline comparisons, where I was trying to find if ANY other point-to-point measure balances to Temple. Ironically, that 105 meter might stand for 4207 = 1050th anniverary of the actual Temple, occurs that year (again, depends on fiscal used).

4207 is also 2100 from Jacob's birth.

Anonynomenon | 07 Mar 2016, 05:47

I noticed that the Exodus balances to both Temple dedication and Christ's death. Christ died 1470 years after Exodus, 980 years after Temple dedication then 616 yeas after the first Temple fall. And of course Temple was first dedicated 490 after Exodus.

I wonder why Jesus was born on Chanukah rather than Yowm Teruah after the first Temple, since His death balances to both the dedication and fall of the first Temple? Maybe the mystery of the Church Age is in the two dedications. The Church is being fitted together as a Temple, and Christ is the Temple incarnate...

edit

Fixed it, thanks.

And the Temple fell 854 years after Exodus. So, 616, 980, 490,854, and 1470 are all multiples of 7.

brainout | 07 Mar 2016, 05:51

No, Christ died 980 years after Temple dedication, 950BC to 30AD. You might want to redo your post before I reply further.

EDIT: Oh and one more thing that hit me when I was readying for bed (lol that always happens): 2666 Exodus might be considered 2667 fiscal, because 3150-2667=483!

Exodus was 1440BC as you know, and lasted a year prior (plagues ran from Aviv to Aviv); but in the timeline due to the Varro error, is 1437 from Christ's Birth. Due to the Varro error one can't simply ramp up the AD by 3 years, as many scholars do, for the timelines we use don't then gel. But notice that here you have to pretend 33AD; for relative in BIBLE, it would be for this usage.

All this matters, in Matt24. The meter from the first 84 (including Matt's padding) through the 28 in v.10 adds up to 350, same as the syllables=years in Time Track II (Judges) of Psalm 90. But Moses wrote that in his 119th year, a year before he died, about 1400BC.

40+44 (1st 84) +42+21+21+70+44+40 (bookended 84) +28 =350. First 40 is Moses' term from Exodus until death; but it seems to be a kind of parenthesis. Then Joshua then (somehow) the Judges and Samuel.

After the 28 there are two 105's, implying maybe that the 7-year lateness either begins or is perpetuated there. Or that it becomes 14 there for the 7-year civil war then seven extra years David lives which scholars always overlook (last 7 chapters of 1Chron and time texts in 1Kings 1:1 through 6:1).

That 28 takes you to what we call 1050 BC, when Saul crowned, then another 40, then David and then Solomon for a combined 80, then kings through the end of Ahaziah. Notice how David's reign is divided in the middle, as 40+40=80, so 25 more of David's 40 completes the 1st 105. Why, I don't know. Maybe that's when David got Jerusalem? Some other event, like when he finally stopped fighting?

Total is then 210 years, which would take us to 840BC, end of Ahaziah the last valid king until Joash circa 835 (2Kings 11:2, which explains why not all generations are in the Matt 1 total).

So now the total becomes 560. Looks like a juridical 490 usage. I've seen this kind of thing before but until we have enough meter parsings, I can't be sure this 'juridical' label is apt. Explicit juridical 490 usage is in Acts 13:16-22 and the Lord's seventy times seven re forgiveness, in Matt18:22, so to posit He's also accounting a juridical 490 here, makes a great deal of sense. The whole 70 year timing for Temple Down is keyed to the 70-year historical voting period, so in a sense maybe there is always a sub70 when a major lapse occurs, as it surely was when Athaliah took over after Ahaziah.

For David's crowned at Hebron 3096, then over all Israel 3103, 3(.5? At what we now call Chanukah?) years late. That's a clear demonstration of the personal 490's overrunning the historical, for Moses/Exodus 490 doesn't end until 3156.

Now it gets even more interesting. Next in the Matt24:19-31 meter is 476, which is 119+168+189, no subsevening within each of those 'paragraphs'. Implication that any spiritual growth, was rare. Timeline takes you to what we call 364 BC, rise of Philip II of Macedon, the bronze in Daniel's vision of the Man of Time. (Again, rounding for fiscals, also since what we call 841 had ended, and our ruling dates for Judah and Israel are still approximate.)

After that, 434, which is Matt 24:32-44, subsevened as 14+112=126+308. So the 14 years between 364-52BC (v.32, 352 was end of 3rd Sacred War which caused Philip to consolidate his power) -- are maybe depicted as troubled but productive (lol learn the parable of the fig tree, which of course means Israel).

Thing is, 364-434 is 70 AD, Temple Down.

If we instead back up the timeline to count Matt 24:1, the 210 breaks instead at 880AD, benchmarking the first 30 years of Asa (whereas Daniel split 11-30 on Asa, in Daniel 9:7-8). Second (476=Dan 9:14 and Matt1's 2nd dateline) break becomes 404 when Darius II dies, then Artaxerxes II comes to power, and 3rd (434=Dan9:13) is of course 30AD.

Total either way is the 1470 = 490x3.

If instead or in addition we call this a forward timeline as you suspect, then the first 560 is a no-brainer, lining up on GeneYrs.xls, with the voting period falling from 520-590. The next 476 years takes us to the Norman Conquest, 1066. Why? Doctrinal meaning of the meter is Dan9:14 (cum), which was the close of his indictment of Israel, she's short because apostate. We have to assume a Daniel 9 theme, since Church is Groundhog Day, and clearly the meter is keyed TO Daniel, even as the text. (Idea of Church Exodus due to apostasy but only a few were faithful, akin to Israel's story, only Moses, Numbers 14:11ff.)

Then the next 434 (Daniel 9:13 cum) takes us to 1500 AD, which is almost 50 years after Gutenberg, 17 years before Luther's theses (regarded as the kickoff for the Reformation), and 70 years before the next historical 70-year voting period begins. Parallel to the 140 for Israel? 1st Temple went down 586BC, 140 years before the next historical voting period was due to begin.

Seems odd. If we go 217 more after that, we get to 1717. If intended, the year would have to benchmark something about Bible or Church. I'm not finding anything, but that doesn't mean there is nothing. It would have to be significant, to be the ending benchmark.

And I don't see why the Norman Conquest would matter, either. Except, LOL William was likely crowned on Chanukah (which we call Christmas, ever since Pope Gregory cut 10 days from the calendar, making December 15 Saturnalia into December 25). However, it did disrupt the ecclesiastical setup there, search on 'cultural development' here.

Going by this article, seems like William the Conqueror was intent on becoming another Constantine: that would make the benchmark significant, and then if so, Paul's tracing of the rise of Constantine using the meter in Eph1:3-14, would be elaborative.

I just posted the link to the whole timeline as a frankforum thread, here. http://brainout.net/frankforum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=516

So the possibility is vettable. I still don't understand 1500 or 1717, but if we can vet 1066 (for the 520-590 is obvious), then we'd have more understanding of why and if, 1500 and 1717.

The whole theme has to fit together. Fortunately, all this stuff is self-auditing, if we keep plugging at it.

Anonynomenon | 08 Mar 2016, 03:22

Ok, So focusing on 520-590 AD; What if the Pope is in view? Pope Pelagius II was born in 520 AD and died in 590 AD. He was very legalistic, mandating celibacy for all clergy members...but his successor, Gregory I didn't even want the job. He appeared humble, and wanted to lead a quiet life of study in the monastery. He tried everything to avoid the office of Pontiff....that's pretty satirical, 'when you see the Abomination, flee...'.

He seemed like a humble man looking to escape the legalism of the Church. Maybe that's why he was placed in power. He relaxed the celibacy mandate made by Pelagius II, and sent missionaries to England.

I don't know, its just odd how the change in leadership happened right at the new 490.

Pope Gregory also defended the Jews from forced conversion. That is note worthy.

brainout | 08 Mar 2016, 04:25

Okay, but the birth and death of one individual doesn't tie to the passage text. So it has to be an event which depicts the text, or a historical trend starting or ending at the benchmark which signifies the text. Paul and Daniel did timelines like you're positing, but they used TERMS OF OFFICE as benchmarks, not births and deaths of specific rulers. Daniel's was retrospective, Paul's was prospective, tying the TERMS of the Emperors (not their birth and death) to the CHANGES in Church fathers, to show Church causes history (just like Thieme said of Ephesians, but he didn't apparently know the meter).

That's the style. Question is, where did Paul get it? You could say, from Isaiah 53, for Isaiah does the same thing -- which Daniel builds from, validating what Isaiah said -- but I've not posted videos yet to show how the Isaiah text characterizes the reigns (well, except for a few starting here, badly done, not worth watching).

Point is, if Christ is doing an annual prophetic timeline, then Paul's style must be a 'reply' to it. So then Paul's style would reflect Christ's. So then if I know Paul's style, I should look for the same style to have STARTED with Christ. Matt24 would be the place for Him to do that.

So can we apply that style to the Matt24 text? So far, I don't see it. I only see broad TRENDS, not an annual timeline. But maybe you will see one.

Anonynomenon 08 Mar 2016, 05:02

Well, the birth and death really isn't the focus, since the text does not break the 105 into 35+70. What would be the focus is the change in authority. Gregory may have been a Pope, and probably full of weird ideas, but he did defend the Jews from forced conversion.

Lets go back to 485 AD; The Acacian Schism from 485-519AD, which was a big argument over the Hypostatic Union of Christ. It didn't result in violence, but imprisonment of dissenters on the part of Easter Rome. It's got the same basic theme of the 133; many falling away, hatred between the two parties, false doctrines, many mislead...

You could also tie the Rise of Clovis in 486 AD to a Christian exodus from the Roman Catholic tyranny.

I don't see Paul's style being applied here, and I really would not expect to find it. However, I do see historical trends...the Development of the Church, or Fitting Together the Temple. Not only is Christ describing the growing pains of the Church, but He seems to be mapping out the duration of those phases.

Edit:

380 AD Edict of Thessalonica establishes Nicene Christianity as state Religion of Rome. Between 380-485 AD, schisms form.

First comes the Schism of 485 AD: Dispute over the Hypostatic Union of Christ. Many fall away, and hate builds up between the two parties, yet Rome wants the vain image of Unity (Ecumenism); so the West reunites with East (despite doctrinal differences) on what they deemed to be Easter, on March 24, 519 AD. So Easter of 519 AD is an Ecumenal Abomination....But in 590 AD Gregory I puts an end to forced conversion for a time, and allows more freedom.

In 486 AD, Clovis unifies the Franks, and his kingdom becomes a place of refuge for Christians who don't want the Roman Ecumenism. Fleeing the Abomination.

brainout | 08 Mar 2016, 05:45

Well, the whole timeline has to run consistently like that, before you can say any part of it is apt. It all has to fit together thematically, be reflected in the text words, etc

Example: starting at verse 1, if a FORWARD timeline, then something significant re CHURCH or BIBLE or ISRAEL which THE TEXT covers, has to occur 84 years later (after 30 AD or 70 AD, depending on what you use as a starting year). Each sevened paragraph would be a historical benchmark, in the timeline, IF a FORWARD timeline. It works retrospectively, as I've posted before: a kind of cause de jure, juridical reason FOR the prophecy in the first place.

So it would have to work prospectively, if an annual forward timeline is intended, in the same way.

We know the 114 probably references the Jewish war, so that's a good start, since it's a dateline. Second dateline, the 42, probably references Temple Down, given the 4-year Varro error (Christ Age 73 then, given that His Age is often used in NT dateline meters, of which Mary's was the first).

But from there? 21 years later could be read as the (now-missed) originally-scheduled mid-Trib (His Age 94), keeps with the text, since it's about signs, and Abomination is a sign. Temple Down not rebuilt, but many wanting it to be rebuilt, petitioning Rome etc. was an abomination, too. That shows the deception he warns about in the 2nd 21 syllables, verse 4.

At that point, He'd be Age 115, our 112 AD, if I used a 30AD start keyed only on the 2nd Dateline (which I've never seen the meter do).

If instead I go back to the first 84, then 84 years after 30 AD, 114/115 Kitos war etc., by the 2nd 21 we'd be at 84+42+21+21+ 30 AD, = 198 AD. The interim benchmarks would have been

30+84 =114 Verse 1-2 Theme: Man admires his construction, God tears it down. (Trajan's massively expanding empire, completion of Canon under John, yet also expanding evil 'Christian' writers from Clement to mathetes), then

114+42=156 Verse 3a Theme: When will it be torn down (drooling over signs, missing the point)? (Hadrian and Antoninus 'Pius', SPQR cut way back, outers dismember, so too Christian antisemitism goofballs like 'Polycarp', 'Papias'), then

156+21= 177 Verse 3b Theme: what are the (drool drool here) signs? (Aurelius and then his son Commodus, who started coruling in 177; goofball apostate writing parallels are Justin Martyr, Hegesippus, Irenaeus), then

177+21= 198 Verse 4 Theme: don't be deceived i.e., don't drool over historical events, do what Jacob did and learn and live on Bible to grow the Family.. (Commodus and the civil war after that, then S. Severus in 195 but it took until 198 for him to finish off rivals (lastly Albinus); son Caracalla made co-ruler in 198. Parallel Church writers were roughly the same, but the big change here is the addition of Tertullian chief expositer of the pope idea, Origen who tried to convert the Severan MOTHERS (hahaha Paul uses musterion for them, Eph1:9), and some others).

And so on. This is the pattern of analysis we have, but that doesn't mean it's the only pattern in Bible, nor necessarily the pattern Christ uses here.

For Paul similarly benchmarked (as noted above in the parens): 114, 157, 175, 195

I did a short timeline of the Church fathers here, since although you can find church father stuff everywhere, a good listing of their relative dates is hard to find.

So where are the later events depicting the text at each of those junctures? General ties, yeah. But as an annual timeline using specific satirical keywords for each of those segments of future time? Paul's is quite biting. Christ's should be more so.

The below, is pretty biting.

114: Matt24:1-2, Man admires his construction, God tears it down.

• Everyone ADMIRED Trajan's expanding the Empire and those dippy Church writings, both expanded until they nearly bankrupted everyone -- Rome's treasury was nearly exhausted by the expense of Trajan's campaigning -- just as verse 1-2 text shows. Church was falling all over itself to be condemned (i.e., Ignatius with Trajan, Polycarp's trial). Ouch.

156: Verse 3a Theme: When will it be torn down (drooling over signs, missing the point)?

• From Hadrian's 117 accession onward, TEARING DOWN is what happened to the Roman Empire, the Jews, and Christians. WHEN they weren't tearing apart each other, that is. Hadrian wanted to tear down the whole Roman senate: Antoninus got the nickname 'Pius' because he talked mad Hadrian out of, executing the lot of them.

177: Verse 3b Theme: What are the signs?

• Oh, how about false peace? No cares until the Flood comes, name of Methu-Salah (when he dies, it happens). Time of Aurelius, but ohhh Commodus while a child, made co-regent. And in that peace, antisemitism and the apostate writers flourish with some of the goofiest dogma ever written, set up for the civil war with Irenaeus Against Heresies (anything disagreeing with his own heresy, of course).

198: Verse 4 Theme: Don't be deceived,

• but from Commodus on everyone is deceived, then civil war ensues with the Severans rising to power on Trump-like deceptions and donatives! In Christian writings, the same thing, with Origen fighting with everyone, Tertullian playing the bully, everyone fighting over the same voters, so to speak, vying for political ascendancy.

Yikes.

Next in the meter, is 70, Matt24:5-6, many will say 'I am He', don't be upset, just ignore them; wars and rumors of wars.

• 70 years after 198, is 268 AD: Rome and Christianity are split into East and West, the moderate Gallienus is assassinated, everyone damns his fellow Christian over allegiance to Decius, aka Crisis of the Third Century, prominent in Paul's meter.
  
  It's basically the theme of his meter, how Church goes political and destroys itself, hence the Rapture (so no folding clothes dropping neatly out of the sky).
  
  Of most importance here, is that during the rolling unravelling, many Christians in Rome were crying it was the time for the 2nd Coming. So much so, Hippolytus made up a fake timeline to say Christ was not due, yet based on the Jewish 2000+2000+2000 garbled timeline.
  
  I had Google Doc links to the proper pages in Mosshammer but now can't find them; you can look inside the book, and the closest page to what I'm saying is p.28-29, but that's not all of it. I have the hardback, but I'll have to read through to find the right pages.
  
  Finally found a link (but not the right reference) to Mosshammer in Google Books: The Easter Computus and the Origins of the Christian Era. Callistus was connected with the reference, but I'll know the page when I see it, and I don't see it yet.
  
  You also can no longer find a searchable Bishops' Lists by Robert Lee Williams, which I also have in hardback. I got reprint permission for some of the pages I showed in the videos (starting here), but I didn't get permission for pages 168-170, which are on this topic. There is a newer edition for 2014, here. Mine is the 2005 edition.
  
  Essentially, the chiliasts in Rome were calling it a "New Prophecy" that Christ would return in Year 1000, and Hippolytus of Rome and Callistus were in civil war over that. Eventually the thing would cause the Severans and them to all be ousted. How much Alexander Severus (then emperor) was actually involved, who knows.
  
  Meanwhile, you can google on Hippolytus of Rome, '5500' and 'chiliasts' to see that to them, 'our' 217 AD was nearly Year 1000 of Rome. So they were indeed talking like Christ warns, here. Sample search is here.

Verses 7-9, 84 Syllables Theme: nation against nation, persecution against those of My Name, all the beginning of birth pangs.

• Yeah, exactly. Out from the civil war comes Diocletian, and the unending wars after that consolidate a Constantine who births what John calls Rev17 harlot politicized Church, right down to the same seven hills that Constantine has DUPLICATED in what became Constantinople. The murdering then goes on in Christ's Name over whether God is one or Three, all of Diocletian's Romanisms get imported to this day as the Roman Catholic Church, Jews are pogromised, the works.
  
  And it's just newly BORN, in 352BC when the 84 ends, with Constans dead and Constantius II his brother who warred against him over the definition of God(!), the last of the sons standing, finally both halves of the empire temporarily united again EXACTLY Rev17 harlot style.
  
  Paul's meter on it starts here; looks like he's playing back to these verses in Matt24. Paul breaks this period down precisely, with extreme biting sarcasm.

Matt 24:10, 28 syllables, 352-380 AD, many will be offended with and hate each other, is exactly the tenor of the time, for Political Christianity has taken over. So-called 'Theodosius the Great' takes over. Not good. Here in 2016, the same 'movement' is happening again (politicizing Christians back Trump and Cruz).

Verses 11-14, 105 syllables, 380-485 AD, the love of many will grow cold, multiplying of lawlessness, those staying in the doctrine will be delivered, (then summary statement) the Gospel will be everywhere preached, and then comes the end.

• Yeah, the end of the Roman Empire. Yeah, the multiplying of laws leads to the multiplying of lawlessness, as the Theodosian Code becomes YUGE and everyone persecutes everyone else to curry favor with the principate. To stay in the doctrine you have to leave the Roman Empire; which becomes much easier to do. when Odovacer takes it over in 476.

So yeah, maybe this is an annual timeline.

Yet the endpoint is odd: 1687 total syllables + 30 = 1717, meaning what with respect to either Bible, Temple, Israel, or some combo of the 3? Unless He's being funny, because on 31 March 1717 you have the Bangorian Controversy, kicked off by a speech to then King George. Click here for a better article on it. Frankly, the founding of the US is entirely about this, so it's not a small thing. Click here for a contemporaneous reflection on the importance of the controversy for the newly-forming, United States.

Funny the Lord would pick the year of the speech, if in fact He's doing that.

It's possible, for that's been the raging debate ever since, and now in this Presidential election we have the modern ANTI-CHRIST version of that in the Dominionists, of whom Ted Cruz is one, and Donald Trump is backed by the others (i.e., in Liberty U). Lots of reading on that, here.

The Endpoint has to be significant in a timeline. Paul's was the rise of Odovacer, the guy who took down the Western Empire, and the rise of Codified Political Church in the East (which becomes known as the Theodosian Code). It's like a movie where the ending is a beginning, for you know what follows: and Church lived unhappily ever after.

So Christ's endpoint has to be significant. The doctrinal meaning is clear, but as a timeline, not so much. At least, not to me right now.

By contrast, it looks more like you're stringing together unrelated stuff, as the text isn't supporting the events you're tagging.

So if you're on the right track, God will cause you to know. If not, same answer.

Anonynomenon | 08 Mar 2016, 06:31

ok. I think I'll just try to focus on something else tomorrow then. Maybe the retrospective timeline will help.

brainout | 08 Mar 2016, 06:40

Okay, understood. This is an exhausting process. I edited my post again after you made yours, so maybe re-read it. Or not. Sleep well!

Oh: this might help you, a chronology of Roman Emperors with articles attached to each name., usually by Roman historians prominent in various universities, with short but useful bibliographies.

And as for the Abomination, it's 10 syllables into the verse, so would be 495, if the metering scheme is seminal to Paul's. Search on 'pope' when you load this. Wiki is sometimes squirrelly, but that entry can be vetted. Would be an abomination, alright. But you might find other entries which are better?

Kinda chilling, when you match to the meter.

Anonynomenon | 09 Mar 2016, 00:12

Ok, so if the Pope's new authority (495 AD) is an Abomination, then the Desolation caused by the Abomination would be evident 6 syllables/years later in 501 AD when Pope Symmachus I asserted that secular authority had no jurisdiction over him.

Edit:
Ok, I think I got it. The fist half of the 105 is the Theocratic Consolidation of Power, which facilitates the second half; Justinian's attempt to REVIVE Rome to its ancient glory. This attempt is foiled in part by an outbreak of bubonic plague. I'm working on the dates. Will post them later.

brainout | 09 Mar 2016, 03:49

That's interesting! Again, whatever God gives you to come up with! You inspired me to play with it, but at the end of the day, it's your call.

I'm reasonably sure now that Paul's text is interlacing with Matt24, hence my long prior post. Really didn't expect that.

Anonynomenon | 09 Mar 2016, 06:34

Ok. So my timeline for vs 15-18 isn't complete yet. I started off with your idea of the Abomination of 495 AD at syllable 10, then Justinian caught my attention. So your observation might be correct, but I haven't worked it all out yet. this is what I have so far.

485 AD The Acaian Schism (Chalcedonian vs Miaphysitism) sets the stage for Papal Desolation.

syll 10--Abomination--495 AD Pope Gelasius I declares papal authority is raised above that of the Emperor.
syll 16--Desolation--501 AD Pope Symmachus declares that the secular authorities have no jurisdiction over the clergy.
syll 27--Spoken by Daniel--512 AD Emperor Anastasius I makes monophysitism (reason for the Acacian Schism in 485 AD) his official dogma. This causes riots and prompts Vitalian to revolt.
syll 29--Standing--514 AD Vitalian marches his soldiers to Constantinople and blockades the city.
syll 35--In the Holy Place--520 AD Vitalian becomes Consul and is murdered that same year; probably by future Emperor Justinian I who becomes consul in 521 AD.
syll 44--Let the reader understand--529 AD Codex Justinianus, the Dominionist legal code for Justinian's Revived Rome.
syll 52--Those in Judea--537 AD Byzantine forces take back the city of Rome for the first time since the Empire split and defend it against a siege.
syll 56--Flee--541 AD Outbreak of Bubonic Plague starts in Constantinople and spreads across Europe, hindering Justinian's ability to reunify Rome.
syll 60--To the mountains--545 AD Justinian sends Narses to Heruli to build an army for his campaign in Italy and Syria. This is a good time to leave Italy.
syll 72--Do not come down--557 AD An earthquake nearly levels the city of Constantinople. People leave their houses in a panic for the fear of collapse. The damage is so bad that Justinian mourns for 40 days.
syll 82--Take from the house--567 AD Justinian signs a treaty with Persia that requires him to pay 5,000 pounds of gold per year.
syll 90--The one in the field--573 AD Persia takes the city of Dara by from Byzantines, then crosses desert to attack Syria.
syll 98--Do not return--Justin I dies after abdicating the throne due to his spells of madness. He never returned to the throne before his death.
syll 105--Retrieve his coat--Persia and Byzantium return to peace, signing a Treaty, and Dara is returned to Byzantium.

This is the timeline for vs 45-46 and vs 47-51

Starting point is: 1570 AD Pope Pius V issues Papal Bull: "Reigning on High", excommunicating Queen Elizabeth I and her supporters, in an attempt to bring back Bloody Mary and Catholic Theocracy.

vs 45-46

syll 10--Faithful servant--1580 AD Pope Gregory 13th suspends Pius's Bull, stating that Catholic Church should obey Queen Elizabeth until the opportunity arises to overthrow her.
syll 14--And wise--1584/1582 AD Pope Gregory 13th implements his calendar and it is adopted by all Catholic nations.
England is free from the Catholic church, and therefore does not accept the Gregorian calendar until later. Some how, 2 years appear to be cut out of history. Was this Gregory's goal?
syll 19--Has set--1587AD Elizabeth I signs death warrant for Bloody Mary's attempt to usurp the crown, Mary dies in the following year of uterine cancer.
syll 32--Over his house--1600 AD Ruthuen brothers die in a failed attempt to kidnap or murder King James VI.
syll 43--Feed in season--1611 AD First edition of King James Bible is published on May 2nd.
syll 50--Blessed servant--1618 AD King James proposes Five Articles of Perth.
syll 70--Found doing--1638 AD Scottish National Covenant is signed and declares Christ as authority over Church, rather than the King of England. This leads to the Bishops Wars, English Civil War, and Irish Civil War...all fought for freedom of faith.

vs 47-51
syll 6--Truly I tell you--1644 AD Oliver Cromwell proposes Self Denying Ordinance to separate Parliamentary members from Military due to conflict of interest. This Military Reform will determine the outcome of the English Civil War.
syll 17--In charge of possessions--1655 AD Cromwell divides England into 11 Districts under major-generals. Later this year, Anglican's are banned.
syll 19--Belonging to him--1657 AD Cromwell is offered the crown, but turns it down, preferring to remain the Protector of Lords.
syll 25--Will set him--1663 AD King Charles II signs multiple charters to the North American colonies, and passes the Second Navigation Act, requiring all goods going to colonies to be bought from England or resold by England. This leads to the Tea Parties and eventually the American Revolution.
syll 35--Evil servant says--1673 AD Test Act: Catholics and others who refuse State-Church sacrament cant vote, preach, hold office, teach, attend university or assemble in English meetings; Per King Charles II.
syll 45--Within his heart--1683 AD Conspiracy in heart of London (mostly pubs) to Charles II and take control of London is uncovered...Rye House Plot.
syll 53--Master delays--1691 AD After several requests to grant a charter to Plymouth Colony, King issues a charter which merges Plymouth with Massachusetts Bay.
syll 59--Begins to beat--1697 AD Thomas Aikenhead is the last person to be executed for blasphemy in Great Britain.
syll 63--Fellow servant--1701 AD Act of Settlement is passed, which excludes Catholic members of Stuart family from the Monarchy. On Sept 16th, exiled Stuart, King James II dies, prompting the Jacobites to follow James Francis Edward Stuart as their King.
syll 65--Of him--1703 AD King Louis of France supports Jacobite King, James II as "rightful" king of England in hopes of restoring him to power and pushing England out of the Grand Alliance.
syll 69--Eat moreover--1707 AD Union Act Ratified in Scotland on Jan 16th, and England on March 19th, to unify Scotland and England into one kingdom.
syll 79--With drunks--1717 AD Great Britain, France, and Dutch Republic sign Triple Alliance to uphold Treaty of Utrecht, and to end the War of Spanish Succession.
syll 91--Master Returns--1729 AD Seven of eight Lords Proprietors sell land in Province of Carolina back to English Crown. The result is the formation of South Carolina.
syll 100--Unexpected day--1738 AD On May 24th, John Wesley unexpectedly experiences "confirmation of salvation" while at a meeting on Aldersgate street in London. This led to the formation of Methodism. One good thing about Wesley's doctrine is the teaching of 'universal priesthood'.
syll 109--Unknown day--1747 AD On March 21st, John Newton (writher of Amazing Grace) is either saved or gets back in fellowship after praying to God for rescue while on sailing through a severe storm.
syll 117--Cut to asunder--1755 AD Braddock Expedition is ambushed and defeated during French and Indian War. Braddock is fatally wounded, Col. George Washington survives.
syll 130--Place of hypocrites--1768 AD Massachusetts House of Reps circulates Samuel Adam's letter, which states that Massachusetts is not and cannot be properly represented in British Parliament due to geographical distance, therefore, no taxation.
syll 132--Will assign--1770 AD British Soldiers who were assigned to keep order in Massachusetts (as a result of Samuel Adam's letter), become involved in an altercation that results in the Boston Massacre.
syll 139--Weeping--1777 AD American Revolution: not sure which event is in focus here.
syll 143--Gnashing--1781 AD American Revolution: again, not sure which event.
syll 147--Of teeth--1785 AD Northwest Indian War: British forces arm Native Americas (out of frustration from losing the American Revolution) in an attempt to prevent U.S. acquisition of Northwestern territories. The U.S. needs the land to pay off the debt from the Revolutionary War.

brainout | 10 Mar 2016, 02:27

Wow. That's some biting sarcasm. So far you seem to have found something. Keep going as you have time. The key proof is, the whole will be consistent if you've got the right answer. If anything seems amiss, redo and recheck. Bible is self-auditing, like a jigsaw puzzle.

EDIT: concerning the 147 bookend, you might be right about that! I'm working on it, cuz the ending at 1717 seems odd.

Beginning bookend was from Matt 24:1, 40+44=84+42+21=147. I have to revisit that text for hints on a possible 147 ellision (1687+413=2100, and 413+147=560, parallel to Jacob in Gen 1:19, and of course repeating Matt24:1-18 meter sum). Perhaps the idea is that padding is the first 147 syllables, not merely 124? Okay, revisited text, Matt24:1-3, admiring Temple, Lord says it will be torn down, disciples ask what will be the signs. Makes sense to wall that off.

KILL ME NOW. If you subtract 147 from 1687 you get 1540 = 1050+490, then add 30 to get AD, you get 1570 AD, the beginning of the historical voting period during a time we call the REFORMATION (row 289 in GeneYrs.xls ). Makes a lot more sense. For that's the same math God used in taking down the 1st Temple 140 years before the historical voting period was to START, and was the tagged benchmark in Daniel's 9's meter.

So maybe we need to start over. Use v.4 at 30AD and then go forward? What are the text ties then?

Playing:

v.4, 21 syllables COUNTING Matt text, don't be deceived/wander from the truth/go apostate, (Greek planaw means all those things = 'hebrew', see Eph4:14). So, 30-51 AD. Covers Tiberius through most of Claudius, with 51 being when Nero got toga virilis and Imperial favor (lol, since some NT dateline meters use that kind of event). Could be something else. Sarcasm: all were deceived during this time, Tiberius by Sejanus, and Claudius through his wives and slaves. We have Bible to know how deceived Christians were, replete with the Acts 5 experiment, how the Judaizers were after Paul, etc.

But growth too, and 21 is Jacob's 'growth' period, service under Laban.

v.5-6 (not checking every year yet), next 70 years to 121AD, many come in My Name and deceive, wars and rumors of wars, don't be upset, the end is not yet (Are we there yet? kids ask parents, 'No'=oupw, say parents). And that happened, too: Temple Down, Year of the 4 Emperors, Trajan and start of Hadrian (in 117) and the warring with the Jews (114). But what's significant about 121? I don't know.

Doesn't seem to match as well. So maybe we're looking at a DUAL Timeline? Daniel did that, Psalm 90 was dual as well. Isaiah's was not dual. Paul's is not dual. Neither was Mary's.

WAIT! 21+70 might be the source for Paul's 91! Whoa. That 'Spring of Church' 91 ends at 147, too! Bullseye!

Moreover, since the extra shortfall for Christ dying 7 years early (at beginning of 62nd week of Dan9:26 rather than it's end) by the time Paul writes, he uses 91 instead of the Lord's 84 in Matt 24:7-9, maybe. Updating it to include what-if-Trib happens then, so to include it, since the historical trend of those Matt24 verses, would still be the same, and the literal meaning applies to Trib. Especially, since in Paul (and maybe the Lord's timeline too), that's when Diocletian and Constantine, come to power. LOL depending on the fiscal, the Lord's 84 takes you to Paul's 'proel' for Constantine's death on Pentecost, 337 AD (remember the sacred year runs six months behind the civil, so it would be 336 on the sacred calendar but 337 on civil or vice versa).

Or, maybe the Lord's own use of the timeline begins in v.4 and He's predicating it on 30 AD, to just show the outline of history, sorta to let you know the Rapture won't occur on time: in which case, the generic timeline takes you 1050+490, to 'our' 1570 AD, beginning of the voting period which characterizes the Reformation. Then Paul maybe keys off at v.4 to update that for specifics, but only carries those specifics to the end of the first 490. Or something similar. Not yet sure.

OR and this seems more likely: the Lord is predicating on 30AD, hence 1540, but that's 64 years prior to Mill, and Paul updates it when the Lord shoulda been 56 (in His 57th year), keying off Matt24:4's meter. For at that point, it is 40 years before the Mill, just as Mary had stopped, and of course growth etc. has occurred since, so the timeline needs more specifics to show the pattern of how it will go, for Church. For that historical pattern, indeed becomes the trend (Church goes political). So, from Odovacer onward; at whose own toga virilis, Paul stops.

Back to Matt24:4= 21 syllables=years = Paul's second dateline, 21 years after Tiberius died Eph1:4.

Adjusts for Varro's error). So in Paul it's the period Lord shoulda-been age 56-77, on the original Abrahamic timeline. Works if we just call that 'our' AD (56-77 AD).

THAT's why there's a remarkable convergence with Paul; but until the timeline is completed, we won't really know.

Much to rework here. It might well be true that we start at 30AD and go to 1717; maybe start at 70 AD. Maybe even at His Birth, like Paul does. I just don't know. Am exhausted. But there's no way to say the parsing isn't apt. Kill me now.

Anonynomenon | 10 Mar 2016, 16:58

Sorry, had to get sleep last night. First solid night of sleep I've had since starting Matt 24.

If 147 is bookending, then I suspect an ellipsis of 308 to bookend the 455. Maybe that will resolve the awkward 1717. The rest needs to be mapped before we can get that far, first.

brainout | 10 Mar 2016, 17:55

Yeah, I'm not sleeping rightly either. Can't get to sleep. Was trying, then it hit me: what if Paul's 56 is a 'walk back' to the last 56 syllables. Text omitted is Matt24:1 through first seven syllables in v.3, which corresponds to 'While He was sitting'. Yeah, because when Paul writes, the Lord is sitting in Heaven, not on Mount of Olives! So the text Paul counts, maybe starts with 'on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came...'.

Here's the punchline. That means 91 syllables FRONT the Matt24 text before Paul starts his count!

I gotta try and sleep now. I know you've a lot to chew on. This is a very big deal.

brainout | 11 Mar 2016, 06:25

Okay, just learned something important which might help you. I've been trying for YEARS to understand why Mary took the timeline to Christ age 56. Now I think I know: it's not merely to make a play on 40 years to the Mill. Look:

• Temple was supposed to be finished and dedicated such that it would have its 1050th year by the Mill, so its original deadline for DEDICATION was 3150 YoW. Christ was to die 54 years prior to that 1050 anniv -- in 4146 -- so the Gentile Time could be made up.
• Temple wasn't supposed to start building till David died, 2Sam7, and he died ON TIME, 3143. Had Construction begun immediately, and immediate dedication upon completion, then the Timeline wouldn't have changed.
• But Solomon DELAYED rebuilding until 4th year after David died, 1Kings 6:1, and then DELAYED dedication until rest of his secular rebuilding was done (rest of chapter through 1Kings 9:1). So now, 14 years late.
• 1000 years after David's death becomes the new limit for Christ's life, rather than the original 2100+2046 (Abraham's maturation), because no one else of Israel supermatured while she was a nation (Daniel is in exile, so too Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc) --or, because the rules changed and no one post-David could get a 1050 or that was the deal all along.
• So Christ, though originally scheduled to be born 4106 (so we still have to use that for our BC/AD adjustments and deriving Bible dates), got moved up to 4103, so He could still have the same 40 years yet now die by 4143 instead of 4146.
• He dies 7 years early.

So notice: Mary's taking the timeline to his age 56=57th year to add the 17 'lost' on Temple Time (14+3, rounded).

That may matter in your calculations. Sure helps me, now.

Anonynomenon | 11 Mar 2016, 06:47

Ok. That's interesting, and it seems to answer some questions that I posed on page one...but why does the delay in Temple time mirror Abraham's 54 year credit???

Was Solomon doing this purposely?

BTW. I edited my timeline post, completing vs 15-18.

brainout | 11 Mar 2016, 08:00

Saw your updated timeline post, and it makes sense. I'm beginning to suspect multiple timelines here. One, running v.1-52, which you're doing; others, at other places. Paul in particular seems to walk back 56 syllables from 24:4, then start his timeline at Christ's BIRTH, so to make a silent fronting 91 AND to create out of that back-walked 56, a title for his own Eph1:3-14 meter, What are the signs...

As for the delay in Temple Time, it's not mirroring Abraham's credit, that's the problem. It's cutting into his credit by 14+3 years. So adjustments in the Lord's Death Schedule have to be made. First adjustment, He has to now be born 3 or 3.5 years earlier. So the 54, becomes 57. No way to fix that. Next, 7 of the years had to be allocated to Messiah's life -- and it was, in Daniel 9:26 -- but then He died early, at beginning of 62nd week rather than end of it. Third, the Trib 7 is also outside Israel's time.

Moses forecast all this by cutting 14 syllables from Psalm 90:16-17 and sticking them in Ps90:1-4, then by crafting the Mosaic Law to show 50 Jubilee/Pentecost and Passover Week. Now, that makes me think the same overage predated David and the Temple, but maybe not. Maybe it was a warning.

So there is no mirror of 54 in the Temple timeline. Just in the total time allotment, since 2046+2100 would be the limit of Jewish time. Temple was supposed to be dedicated at the mid-pont, 3150. It wasn't.

Hence the 14 shortfall, and why Isaiah subtracts 28 from his meter (490-462 meter = 28). Because, Temple had 126 years left (70 in Dan 9:2 plus seven sevens in Dan 9:26 + 7 in Dan9:27), but the rebuilding took up 140 years, as shown in his meter and history. So: 7 of those years were Temple construction, reducing the total shortfall to 21; Christ dies 7 years early, so 14 remain. Of those 14, 7 are spent taking down 2nd Temple, 64-70 or 66-73 AD, depending on where you measure; and the remaining 7, is the Trib.

No way preterism holds water.

Anonynomenon | 11 Mar 2016, 08:43

Wow, that just blows my mind. If you suspect there are multiple timelines, feel free to test it and post the results. At this point, my understanding is mostly linear, so I've got my hands full with a forward linear timeline.

I'm just starting to map out vs 10-14, and I'm already seeing some very biting satire; Christians vs Pagans, then later Christians vs Christians...the whole Crusader Arrogance thing...

I will continue to edit the timeline post so I can keep it all in one place. I'm just shocked at how historically accurate this is. Its so accurate that I had to change an elision in vs 18 from ἐπιστρεψάτω ὀπίσω to μὴ ἐπιστρεψάτω. Like you said "self auditing"...like the Bible says, "alive and powerful".

brainout | 11 Mar 2016, 10:04

So didn't the total meter change?

As for multiple timelines, what I mean is multiple LAYERS of timelines. Like storeys of a building. They all interrelate. I think Christ is playing of a combo of Gen1 and Psalm 90 styles. But that's just conjecture, for now.

The one you're working on, 560+476+434+217=1470+217=1687

The one you started to work on, -124=1519=1470+217 Notice also that 434x4=1736-217=1519, so maybe Paul is adding another 434, so maybe has multiple timelines, too.

The one you suspected which I'm now working on, -147=490+70+490+490 =Paul. He's tagging the text, not making a parallel timeline. He's elaborating on how to use that text for real future history so if the Rapture happens during 'your' segment of it, you can orient to the whole.

I'm sure there are more. This is something of a Grand Central Station passage for Bible. I'm in shock, frankly.

The biggest thing is, Paul's cutting the text as his parashah, Torah passage, by using METER! How often will we find this in Bible? MASSIVE HELP to hermeneutics and textual criticism. Makes me think the metering is far more pervasive than I've supposed.

• Paul cleverly tags syllables 92 (leaving 91 fore, get it) through 581, with the first 56 as his new TITLE for the new Torah portion God gives him to write, cleverly ending it with the first 21 syllables in Matt24:19, about PREGNANT WOMEN IN PERIL (through tais).
  
  Get the pun? 21? Pregnant? And one thing the scholars all agree on is that Paul's obsessed with the pregnancy theme in all his letters (Rom8:11, Gal 4:19, etc). So his tagging is like a signature, not to mention how well it ties to how Paul ends his text, with an indivisible 91 'winter' and in the timeline, when a WOMAN ran the Emperors (Pulcheria as Theotokos), and persecution for 'heresy' became rife. Explosive stuff!
  
  I wondered for years if I'd parsed and interpreted Paul rightly. This is my smoking gun. I owe you much. You had NO idea I was worried all these years. But God did.

For we SHOULD see multiple timeline reconciliations to Abraham, to Flood, to Temple, to Christ, to Mill, to Adam. For at each juncture, the original Plan, redirects, adjusts, to balance. I know Paul is doing that with his anaphora meters in Eph1:3-14, beginning here (or p.127 of the Eph1DecreeSyllablesREPARSED.pdf copy, going nearly to the end); but it boggles my mind to have to revisit his math again.

Anonynomenon | 11 Mar 2016, 16:48

No, the meter total didn't change, I just traded out one elision for another within a single sentence.

brainout | 11 Mar 2016, 17:41

Okay, well I feel much more certain Paul's playing off the meter, and you know what? He separates the 56 and the 14 the way the Lord does IN REVERSE In Matt 24:

560
476 (14 in ellipsis, which Paul does in Eph 1:10)
434 (Paul's total count but NOT keying off that Matt 24 section, 56 elided)
217 same as Magnificat.

Now here's what's interesting. If you go from 30 AD

+560=590 AD, no brainer. But then
+476 = 1066 AD, somehow a pivotal time in future Bible history (why Norman Conquest, if that, I don't know)
+14 ellipsis, pivotal time in history, takes us to the end of the first 1050 (1080 AD).
So now
+434 (126+308) takes us to 1514, Luther and Reformation. 56 left out, to next voting period, which begins in 1570. Shortfall idea, history might not continue, same as in Psalm 90.
+56 ellipsis (so 308+56!) Another 49+7 time in history, parallel to Temple Down. Paul uses 56 to open and close, bracketing Eph1:4 and 1:14.

But then
+70, clearly the voting period to 1640, still Reformation; and then
+147, which takes us to (drumroll please).. 1787! Trust you know what that is. Not a nice ending, at verse 51.

So are we the King of the West? Or is it sarcasm, considering our founding WAS as outcasts? Eventually we go down or align with whatever becomes fake Church of Rev17 (happening always, even until now).

Yet since Magnificat theme was 1st Chanukah (restoring Temple) to His death then the 17 makeup, then 40 years to Mill, the implication is that the US remains and is a renewal spawned by the Reformation. Which of course, is historically true. We are the only nation on earth at this point, who makes Bible learning among common folk, a personal issue, who has no state church.

Pretending that's true, then maybe we have a final ellipsis of
+217 to 2004
+126 to 2130 AD
=close of the next @2130 AD, signifying Church. But in ellipsis, for after all it might not really complete.
Heh.

Anonynomenon | 12 Mar 2016, 04:39

Was England the Client Nation around 1640 AD?

brainout | 12 Mar 2016, 05:12

You could argue that, yeah. They broke away from Rome back in the 1530's, Henry VIII, remember the story? Right in time for the voting period. Heh.

I remember Thieme claiming that Columba's ministry turned Scotland etc. into client nation, and that during Elizabeth and especially James (Elizabeth reigned after H VIII died) her successor, that it was a client nation then.

History shows that folks like John Knox, who taught James (he of King James Bible) were active in Scotland, England, etc.

Moreover, it looks like maybe the ellipsis is 560 after Matt 24:51, but not in one piece. It looks like above my prior post, but the total ellipsis is 560. Whether those last two units are meant to be the specific elisions I don't know, I was playing off meter repetition in the passage. Paul prominently stops submetering at 343=217+126, so maybe not subdivided, but I'd bet money it's intended by Christ.

DANG! Could I be dumber? OF COURSE Paul tags 92nd-581st syllable for his From Christ Birth timeline -- 91 stands for when the Trib was supposed to begin doctrinally (as Lord's Age), AS WELL AS begin the (now even more apt) cross-ref Matt 24 parashah for his own meter! SORRY!

Film at 11. But on what day, I don't know.

Anonynomenon | 12 Mar 2016, 05:37

Ok, I need to map out the 70, and try to lock in some historical benchmarks, but I probably wont be able to post results until Sunday night. I have to render unto Caesar tomorrow, get my truck fixed, plus some other obligations, but 1640 is going to be driving my crazy all day. I think you're right about the 56 and 14, but I need to test it first.

Scotland is exactly what's on my mind...

brainout | 12 Mar 2016, 06:58

Yeah, take your time (heh). There are at least 2 timelines here, plus one retrospective, plus the generic trends with the 2100 having an ellided 560 at the end. I edited my just-prior post too, which at the end should make you smile. I get what Paul's doing, now, and it's a doozie.

Pretend:
Timeline 1, full monty, full 1687 + ellipses of 14, 56 (Paul reverses these, so they are real), then 217 and 126 (=343, which Paul also plays on) = 2100. Could be annual, could be literal. Could be starting at Christ's death OR Birth.
Timeline 2, same but used generically for trends.
Timeline 3, starts at verse 4, picks up where Mary leaves off, Christ Age 56 (57th year) hence aligns with Paul's usage but he counts the 56 backwards to epi in v.3, to align, title, and play on the preceding '91'.
Count then is 1687-147=1540=1050+490, and Paul's text is elaborative for same period, BUT starting at that first 21 in Matt24:4, aka 57AD. So covers the same years, TWO COMMENTARIES on them, annual and literal.

Just guessing.

So Timeline 3 is a layered one, kinda like how Daniel piggybacked his meter atop Isaiah 53 to create that Man of Time line to 238 BC which Mary used for her Magnificat. I suspect the 364 in Rev1 piggybacks here in Matt24 also, but I've not yet figured out what if any timeline, is in Rev 1.

Anonynomenon | 13 Mar 2016, 01:18

Ok, so I had a massive change in plans today...completely out of my control, so I guess God wanted me to work on this.

I added to the timeline post above, so you can look at it. If it is correct, then it means that Pope Gregory deleted 2 years from our calendar system. I can't make sense of the benchmarks without subtracting 2 years after 1582/1584 AD. This seems to confirm my initial suspicions about Pope Gregory, but let me know if you see better dates to benchmark.

I'll continue later, I'm too burned out right now.

brainout | 13 Mar 2016, 23:25

Okay, well I looked at your ongoing revision so far, here http://brainout.net/frankforum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=512&p=2134#p2118. Keep at it. I'm wondering whether those clauses aren't ALL satire, because even the Protestants were spiritual morons. The only one who shows any spiritual growth, seems to be James. I know that statement sounds arrogant, but these guys are all into ritual and state religion, still.

Anonynomenon | 14 Mar 2016, 01:10

Well, I'm not sure if its all satire, I think its a mixture of dual entendre. The Covenanters were mostly goofy Presbyterians, but the National Covenant and Solemn Covenant where designed to allow theological freedom from the Anglican authority. So as a result, many believers gained temporary freedom under Oliver Cromwell.

King James was a mix too. His Bible, while flawed, supplied the pivot with an alternate translation. His Five Articles of Perth are a mix of Legalism (bishop confirmation, holy days, and kneeling during communion) and doctrinal principles (baptism in privacy, and private communion for the sick).

So far I'm seeing how God works all things together for His plan...even our stupidity.

brainout | 14 Mar 2016, 01:44

Okay, well again, keep going. He gave this to you. I'm working on how Paul is using the timeline 3. Not sure what I've posted so far here, is wholly correct.

EDIT 3/15/16 at 3:00 Am Central Time: PAUL'S DOING TWO annual timelines on Matt24. It's a "Row Row Row Your Boat" kind of antiphonal insertion of his text into Matthew 24. WITH 62 as the theme!

Father, please kill me. But You won't, oupw.

Recovering...

FIRST timeline is synchronized exactly to Matt24:1, starting at that first Kai. Paul links 'eulogia' the 30th syllable in Eph1:3, so Paul's text ends at syllable 404 in Matt24, which is its verse 13 (copied from your revised whole chapter pdf), ὁ δὲ ὑπομείνας εἰς τέλος . Paul's ending clause is eis epainon tes doxes autou. See the eis chaining to make a full sentence? Kill me now.

It's really biting sarcasm, at least through Domitian, how Paul's text interlaces by clause, with Matt24's same 'year' syllable. I've not tested it further. Am too shocked.

That was syllable=year (AD) 30 through 434 in Paul, and 1-404 in Matt24.

SECOND timeline, starts at Matt24:3's cum (from v.1) syllable 92, which is v.3's
ἐπὶ τοῦ ὄρους τῶν Ἐλαιῶν προσῆλθον αὐτῷ οἱ μαθηταὶ κατ’ ἰδίαν λέγοντες Εἰπὲ ἡμῖν, πότε ταῦτα ἔσται,
+
(3b.) καὶ τί τὸ σημεῖον τῆς σῆς παρουσίας καὶ συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος

= 56 syllables = Eulogetos..exzelexzeto hemas in Paul (his first dateline).

Cuz his next clause is 21, lining up with Matt24:4. From then on it's a straight shot, and the first 91 in Paul, aligns with Matt24:4-6.

So Matt24's syllable 92-30=62! Clever, huh. Just like the song Row Row Row Your Boat, for Groundhog Day 62, same trends replay but in different sections of time and different regions.

So what's important about 121 AD (30+91)? I don't know. That's when Hadrian's travels started, and it did have an impact on the Empire, on the development of his antisemitism. Short article, here.

• Paul does benchmark it in Ephesians, tou thelemetos autou, and that's important: it's one of the anaphora. Trajan dies at the eta in thelematos. Next occurrence of thelematos, Macrinus dies; and the final thelematos, Diocletian dies.
  
  Key similarity in all three, is that the WILL of the deceased is essentially UNDONE by the successor. Ouch.

I need to proof all this, it's just a preliminary hypothesis for now. I'm still not sure what to make of the dual aligning 147's. It's clearly deliberate, as you suspected!

Anonynomenon | 17 Mar 2016, 02:29

Ok. I've completed the mapping of vs 47-51 and updated the timeline post. Sorry it took so long to post it. Based on the timeline, I'm pretty sure your ellipsis theory of 14+56 is correct. So this is how I'm seeing the consecutive timeline from 30 AD forward (ellipses in red):

(84+42+21)+(21+70)+84+(28+105)+105=560

then

14+119+168+189=490

then

56+(14+112)+308+70=560

then

147

so 560+490+560+147=1757

brainout | 17 Mar 2016, 06:37

Oh, good shot. I forgot about the last 217 being 70+147. That might help me understand why Paul doubles his text at two different sections in Matt24. West and East Empire, I got that much, but in the FIRST use (where eulogia pegs to Kai in Matt24:1), he's tracing the origin of the Exodus to protect Bible (Paul's theme).. to the US.

Have much more to do!

Anonynomenon | 17 Mar 2016, 07:08

Yeah, there is much to do. I'm going to take a break from the Timeline and finish metering Matt 25. It is definitely metered. I made some progress with it tonite. I want to have the entire panorama available so we can zero in on the minor details. We have a good start with the 14 and 56 ellipses. I'm pretty sure they're locked in, but I suspect another ellipsis.

brainout | 17 Mar 2016, 21:11

Okay. I'm sure Luke 21 http://brainout.net/frankforum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=521&p=2145#p2145 will interleave. He interleaves text with Matthew, so maybe meter is filled in, too. Paul didn't get the reversal of the 56 and 14 from nowhere. Maybe it's in Luke.

As for the 147, I'm still baffled. If Jacob's age, and in combos of 56+91, 63+84, 70+77, why? I don't know, but the equidistant 147 is deliberate, that's for sure.

Anonynomenon | 19 Mar 2016, 04:44

Well, I got Matt 25 done. The Parable of the Ten Virgins totals at 364 syllables. I found that interesting.

The total count is:

(63+49+70+77+105) + (98+42+126+84+182+35+35) + (112+119+91+49+112+98+28) = 1,575

I am burned out. Hopefully, the metering part is over for now.

brainout | 19 Mar 2016, 11:04

Okay, all three paragraphs are playing to TEMPLE. Datelines work well,

63 prior is Augustus beginning (2nd Triumvirate ended 33BC, so war with Anthony began, which Israel needed for Temple rebuilding, Herod switched sides after Actium); 63 post at end of year would have been pre-Church scheduled Mill Start.

49 prior was when Herod started to rebuild Temple (same dateline Peter uses), 49 post would be end Vespasian's reign (who took down temple, initially then really through his son Titus).

Total 1st Temple standing time was 364 years, same as Noah in Das Boot.

Second paragraph on the slaves is more subtle: 602 is 616-14, and 616=586BC to 30AD which was the 980th anniv of 1st Temple had it always remained standing. Christ's life is cut short 7 of His Allotment, and then remains Trib, hence the deduction.

That deduction for His Life, is made up during the last paragraph, of 609. Then remains Trib.

LOL Total 2nd Temple time including Diaspora was the 616+40, so 656 but -54 Abraham credit also =602!

So Christ is balancing the books re Temple Time, showing how Church will be used to do that. Implication that Church will LAST that long, as a 'repayment', though spiritual growth is free so maybe it won't take that long. Rapture is still unpredictable, for you can always repay a time loan early.

Whether this Matt25 is a second timeline, remains to be seen. Clearly Matt24 is one, historical of the development and Persecution of Church by Authority (whether secular authority or those fakers who are Niko-Laus, trying to be the Conquerors of the People).

If Matt25 is a timeline, it would perhaps be the flipside, how Church DEVELOPS. But all this is preliminary guessing. God will know what steps you need to take next.

I'm still working on Luke21's parallel to Matt24. Luke is a lot more straightforward. My only problem is whether he's INSERTING time into the Matt24 timeline the way he inserts his text into Matthew's at key junctures. He might be tagging, rather than inserting. Or, he's doing EASTERN 'Rome' whereas Christ did Western. Not sure that's an apt characterization. Cuz get this: 1687-1085 is .. 602!

Here's a killer: Luke 21:23 benchmarks the 616. Verse content ties to Matt24:19 (syllable 561 at beginning), which begins at 590 AD. Luke uses the same starting point, 30AD for his (seeming) chrono, but in him it's syllable 595 at the end of the first clause (gastri) and almost the same syllable count (23 syllables rather than 24 in Matt24:19). At the end of Luke 21:23, +21 syllables=years later, count is 616. I think that's a deliberate reference to Matt25, but not sure how. Somehow he's bracketing warning periods like Peter did on Paul.

Anonynomenon | 19 Mar 2016, 18:46

Ok. So I agree that Matt 25 has its own dateline, but at the same time, its really a continuation of Matt 24....in fact it appears that Jesus transitions from birthpangs to separating the people by using the 70+147 to introduce Matt 25's meter.

Therefore, I believe that Matt 25 continues the year/syllable timeline started in Matt 24....HOWEVER, we can not predict the future (only audit history), so we need to go retroactively.

My idea is to complete the 490 that is initiated by the 147 with an ellipsis of 231.

147+231=378 taking us back to Genesis 1's use of 378 (separating the land from water, and each tree with fruit of its own kind).

Then 378+(63+49 from Matt25)=490 to complete the first 2100 of the Church Age.

so, 1610+147+(231)+364=2352

4136 YoW-2352=1784 YoW, Which is around the time of Peleg.

brainout | 19 Mar 2016, 19:34

Okay, run with that if you want. I do know now, that Luke 21 is keying off the same data to make a history of the first Mill of Church, to show how it plays, in lieu of the one scheduled. So he's not but tagging Matt24 and maybe 25, at various places. Paul keys off Matt24, dunno if he keys off Matt25, but in Paul's case he's showing a kind of prequel.

So if you think Matt25 is a tackon 1575 then have at it.

Anonynomenon | 20 Mar 2016, 19:21

What is your take on this benchmark?

Is Jesus saying that the Colonists were stepping out of line by challenging England's authority to collect taxes?

Anonynomenon | 20 Mar 2016, 20:48

Ok. So the Peleg thing might have been a mistake. I thought he was born in 1785 YoW, but that was the year his son was born.

However, if you use the 1757 from Matt 24 and (ellipses included), and tack-on the 364 (ending the Ten Virgins Parable), counting back from 4137 YoW, you get Noah's death in 2006 Yow (Matt 25:13--you know not the day or hour of death).

Then subtract 350 years (98+42+126+84), it takes us to the year of the flood, 1656 Yow (Matt 25:23--Put in charge of many things).

I'll have to see if I can find more benchmarks.

brainout | 21 Mar 2016, 00:21

Well, I still don't see how it is a timeline tackon. Or even a timeline at all. Seems like three mnemonically-tagged parashot . It's still a major find, because the meters imply that ALL the Bible is metered.

But you keep playing 'your' way with it. God gave that to you.

BTW, it might help to see how the prophecy 'sandwich' works with Matt24/Eph1:3-14/Luke21: maybe Matt25 is also a sandwich, which I just learned over the weekend, viewtopic.php?f=36&t=521&p=2150#p2150

Anonynomenon | 21 Mar 2016, 01:31

Could you elaborate on "mnemonically-tagged parashots"? Are these common in other meters? Do you think its deliberate or just coincidence?

I mean I don't want to follow a dead end if its not a true pattern.

Yeah, I was looking at the new thread. If Matt 25 is a "sandwich", would its starting point be 30 AD too? Like stacking the meters?

brainout | 21 Mar 2016, 03:29

Well, I'd think you'd start it at 30 AD if a standalone timeline but if it's a tackon as you're surmising, you should run it starting at the end of the last year in whatever you think the Matt24 timeline, is.

As for parashot, cleary the 364 evokes Temple and Noah in Boat as doctrinal 'tags'. There would be other 364 passages, too, maybe. I know Rev1 uses the same meter, maybe as a tag back to Matt25?

602 and 609 are new meters to me. Luke 21 uses 616. Is it a tag, too? It IS IS IS a year, namely 646 AD So what does that mean? I don't know yet.

brainout | 22 Mar 2016, 09:04

For sure Luke is filling in the missing 14 at Christ's 476 in Matt24: total syllables at that point are 1036, so notice how Luke benchmarks 1036 (http://brainout.net/frankforum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=521&p=2150#p2145) and then his next verse phrase parses at 14 syllables more!

28 ending is in ellipsis (same as he started, with 28 and 35).

Anonynomenon | 23 Mar 2016, 04:29

Sorry, time has been an issue for me lately. I am watching your videos on the Matt and Luke meters and following your progress. I'm going to go back to working on the Matt 24 chronological timeline and maybe seeing how Matt 25 fits in. I'll be updating the timeline periodically.

brainout | 23 Mar 2016, 07:01

Well, dunno that you need to watch the videos. I'm just documenting what I learn as usual. Point for a general audience is to see the text is ORGANIZED by SYLLABLE COUNTS, which is unknown to scholars. It's a vital tool of textual criticism, and isn't getting any attention.

Always the naysayers claim we don't have real Bible (i.e., Bart Ehrman), and that it's edited. Really? Then how is it, a syllable-counting meter NO ONE KNOWS is perfect? And, that same syllable counting, was provably used by OTHER BIBLE WRITERS to craft their own stuff?

This is revolutionary. When we are long dead, the scholars will be putting all this together in the mainstream. My worry is that it becomes front-page news before we die. I'm not fond of being in the limelight. But we can't hide this under a bushel, either. So for now, just doing the grunt work of counting the syllables and for FREE putting the material 'out there' prevents it from being hidden, yet not dominating the news.

Anonynomenon | 26 Mar 2016, 04:30

Yeah, I'm not too excited about the getting the spotlight for the meter either, but it would feel wrong to keep it secret. I think this stuff was suppressed by certain "πιστὸς καὶ φρόνιμος" Medieval church leaders. How else do you explain the fact that not a shred of evidence exists to indicate that the early Church ever knew what meter was, or how it worked. Something's wrong there.

I have a question for you. Why does the Ephesians meter start at verse 3 instead of verse 1? I noticed the same thing with Daniel 9.

brainout | 26 Mar 2016, 09:45

Well, re the starting points for Daniel 9 and Eph1, to be honest (and sound like a goofball): I just 'knew' meter started at those verse points. I suppose you should test them, to be sure. I've not done that, given the symmetry of the results. One day I'll have to go back and test, now that I see the 'sandwich'. Could be a NESTING of the meter, so yeah maybe starting at each verse 1, yields an enclosing sevened 'paragraph'. After all, we saw it happen in Matt24, with and without Matthew's padding. I still can't tell if the Christ-only portion is packaged quotes, or if He metered while He talked.

We're all in the beginning stages of this thing.

As for Matt25, I bet the Lord is tagging 602 and 609 passages in OT. Oh, and 1036 where the 476 ends, - 434, is 602. So also the difference between Luke 21 syllable total and Matt 24, without adding in the ellipsis. Oh: and at the 560+476=1066 AD, the NEXT paragraph is the fig tree parable, and guess what? FIVE SYLLABLES into the verse (1071!) the word 'fig' begins (when Seljuks took over Jerusalem). So the 14 we see, stands for the 14 we didn't see, and we are reminded of the fifth year of the one we didn't see, that the Fig Tree was Overrun by Muslims. Proximate cause of the Crusades.

Still can't see a timeline, but if there is one, God will alert you to that and to the OT tags.

But here's another thing: Gen 1:19 benchmarks Jacob at 560, but it's dual-entendre. He would have also been 560 years old at the Exodus, which began a new 490. Jacob was born 2106 from Adam's fall, implying the 7 year lateness (counting from the start of 2100) began THEN. So that's how the Jewish 2100 is measured, also. From Jacob's birth, so that's why the original schedule for Christ's birth was 4106.

Temple is dedicated 1050th year from Jacob's BIRTH (3156-2106 YoW from Adam's Fall).

So the 105 meter, might be reconciling to that pan-Bible.

OKAY, I GOT IT. The relevance is that Jacob is the third, line of MESSIAH. 💡 So the Temple the Temple depicts, is first the BLOODLINE. And it's Jacob's birth, cuz that was the promise to ABRAHAM, who didn't live long enough to see the grandkids, have kids.

AND THAT'S NOT ALL! How did I miss this for so long? Ahh, because I stopped measuring from BIRTHS!

Look: Noah is BORN 1056. So Temple is dedicated 2100 years later, 3156. Jacob was born 1050 years after Noah, in 2106.

PROOF POSITIVE THAT GOD NEVER USES LUNAR YEARS, FOR YOU MISS YOUR BIRTHDAY ISRAEL, AND SCREW UP ALL TIME AND YOUR HOLIDAYS TOO. For 1000s of years. Wow, how embarrassing.

Also, on the 63 sevens=441 as Moses' dateline for Genesis 1 and Psalm 90. It's 390 years contiguous slavery beginning 40 years after Joseph dies minus 3.5, plus 10 years for the time Joseph himself alone was enslaved, plus 40 years after that when Moses writes.

So they were indeed 430 years in Egypt, Exo 12:40-41, but not all those years were slavery. Tack on the 10 to the 390 to get the slavery 'promise' of 400 years fulfilled. But the 441 (start of year, when Moses writes) measures 40 years after the 390 (all contiguous) +the 10 (which is not), so the 63 sevens are NOT all contiguous. It's an accounting balance.

So: Moses writes 470 years after Jacob entered Egypt (1400 vs. 1870 BC). But 40 of those years weren't slavery, minus 10 of Joseph's enslavement, which were not contiguous. So, 440, with Moses writing at the beginning of the 441st year.

I say all this, because your meter in Matt25 is in three pieces (364, 602, 609) which might also be accounting pieces, esp. because Luke 21 is 1085 syllables, which is 602 short of the 1687 in Matt 24. So if Matt25 is a timeline tackon, the differential with Luke might be an interpretative key. WHAT kind of key, I don't yet know.

Anonynomenon | 28 Mar 2016, 00:35

Ok. I counted Ephesians 1:1-2. I got 63 syllables. What I found interesting was that Paul pronounces Jesus' name as Ieisou (3 syllables), which differs from Matt and John who seem to run shorten it into Yeisou (2 syllables).

verse 1 is 39 syllables, no elisions
verse 2 is 24 syllables, 1 elision: καὶ εἰρήνη

63 syllables for the first dateline. That brings it to a total of 315 by the end of verse 10 and a total of 497 by the end of verse 14.

Maybe that will help you some more. I have an idea to test with Ephesians. I'll get back to you if it takes me somewhere.

brainout | 29 Mar 2016, 16:48

Well, in the original, the recipient name is blank (added in the margin for Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, the latter being easier to read, in Bibleworks 9). So I don't see how you can meter verses 1-2. I get 32 or 33 with verse 1 absent en Epheswi (32 if dia pronounced dya and Iesou as two syllables). For verse 2, including the same krasis you show, I get 22 syllables, so the pregnant 54, not near 63.

Only if I count I-e-sou and di-a and en-Epheswi and ku-ri-ou, I get 39 for verse 1 and 24 for verse 2, to equal the 63. The number makes sense, but it's not consistent with the syllable counting in the rest of the letter. So either the rest of the meter is wrong, or the first two verses are not part of the meter, and the count is different. But if I count dia as two syllables and kuriou as three, I get 56. That might matter a bunch, as you'll see below.

Just the same, I've new balancing to your hypothesis about the 147 at the end. Also, I just learned some other interesting numbers, which might explain why Matt25 is metered as it is:

Pretend the Lord is finishing off the 7000, to 'what should have been the final millennium if the 2000+2000+2000 Talmudic refrain were true'.

Matt24+Matt25=3362-3150=112. So if Paul uses 56 twice... BTW, 112 years before Paul writes.. was Crassus.

Eph1:3-14+Luke 21:1-36 = 434+1085=1519. Ring a bell? JUST the text Jesus spoke in Matt24? Or, if 23 add verses 1-2 of Eph1, then 490 Eph1:1-14, plus all of Luke 21 @1085 is .. 1575, same syllable total as Matt25!

There's more, but the point is the Eph and Lukan numbers deliberately interface with both chapters. BEFORE we look at the Eph1:1-2 meter of 63 OR 56, which itself might be an enveloping dateline (same as Luke's in Luke 1 and 21).

Look: In Matt25, 364 is over 21 (takes the timeline to 2151 for Church) but shorted 14 next following in the 602 (s/b 616). That leaves a net overage for the new 1050, as 56 (616-560). Then 609 rather than 616, 7 short. For Trib (490-56 to close, then should be 616 to = 1050, but instead 609). That total with Matt24, then balances.

I wonder if the overages stress that someone won the 490 so that's why time goes over, just as happened in the past with Noah, Abraham, etc.

But there's more. I have to play with the many ways these numbers all interface, but something's deliberate, that's for sure.

PLUS, over the weekend, I pretended that the parable of the virgins was a tackon timeline. Made videos I'll post on April 3 (real Crux date) and each day after (April 6 post-sundown, being real Easter). Upshot is that each occurence of 'bridegroom' lands on a Pres who abrogated the Constitution in the name of the common folk (Andrew Jackson, Teddy Roosevelt, FDR), and the last one coincided with Hitler's rise to become Chancellor (ending at 1934, last syllable in numphios, Matt25:6). Next occurrence of 'bridegroom' is at 2061-65 AD, if this timeline is really of US history.

Gives new meaning to why Paul used 364+70 for Eph1:3-14.

Anonynomenon | 30 Mar 2016, 06:01

Ok, I was metering Ephesians 1:1-2 in a hurry, so I didn't know en Epheswi was not part of the original text. I use Bible hub for my manuscripts, and it usually brackets textual variances. But I'm glad you caught it, because I think vs 1-2 is 56 syllables, and I agree with your parsing of the rest of Ephesians. If vs 1-2 is indeed 56 syllables, then vs 10 "To Result in the 'Filling-Up of Times' Dispensation." ends at 308.

Right now, I'm testing something with Daniel 9, and if I can prove its consistent, then it might tie Daniel 9 and Ephesians 1, in with Matt 24 & 25, and therefore Luke 21. So far I'm seeing Daniel 9 tagging the fall of Holy Rome and the Napoleonic Wars. Seems significant, but I found the pattern by accident, so I need to go further before I can be sure. If that is the case, then maybe Ephesians sandwiches with Daniel 9 in Matt 24.

brainout | 30 Mar 2016, 15:20

Well, again the problem in treating Eph1:1-2 is that ousin kai has nothing between it, in verse 1. It's something of a stretch to make kai asensive. There is no 'ousin kai' construction in any of the mss I've got, OT or New.

Also, the breaches in Matt 24, like 1036 (sum of 560 and 476) might be personal time grant deadlines, accounting for the 364 in Matt25's virgins parable. So the personal 490 went past the historical by 21 years. The 1036 might actually be PAUL getting the 1000 in 66 AD (part of 'crown', maybe, 2Tim4:7-8).

I can't prove all that out, yet. But it might have an impact on interpretation.

BTW, the euthews at the end of verse 15 doesn't belong there. It belongs to verse 16, starting it. The versifier screwed up. So your verse 15 is over three syllables and verse 16 is short 3.

brainout | 06 Apr 2016, 12:48

You might want to recheck your elision assumptions for Chapter 25, and maybe for Chapter 24. There seems to be a lack of consistency?

For example, in Matt25:12, seems like it shoulod be ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν Ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐκ οἶδα ὑμᾶς

Which, then ends at syllable 343, not 344. Which, then dovetails as the addon you expected to Chapter 24, since the last 147 in Chapter 24, when added to 343 is 490, ending that 2nd 1050. Which also makes more sense, as it ends the textual paragraph, with Matt 25:13 being an epilogue and introduction to the next section.

In fact, it would be a better idea to just meter from 25:1 as continuing syllables rather than starting the count over? For then the sevening might change.

Moreover, you need to parse by clause. So verse 13 would end at 363, but verse 15 instead of then ending at 434, should MAYBE end at 431, since euthews MAYBE begins the next verse, which becomes 102 syllables and the total then is perhaps 461.

I say perhaps, because I wonder if the kai_ek elisions are proper. What if they shouldn't be elided, since kai +ek sound would end up ka-ye?

There also seem to be more elisions in the end of Matt24 than are shown, in the 126+308 and in the 70+147 paras. So if you're having trouble proving the addon in Matt25, that may be why? For if I make the change bolded above, then I get more sevening showing up, in Matt 25 which seems more consistent.

Here's what I mean about the 126 para, pasted from your revised reparsed Matt24 pdf, underlining elisions to coincide with elisions made before:

32a. Ἀπὸ δὲ τῆς συκῆς μάθετε τὴν παραβολήν·(14) -- this could mark the end of the first 1050, or be a pun on the missing 14, to start a new 1050. We've been assuming the latter. Luke 21 has the same construction.
14
32b. ὅταν ἤδη ὁ κλάδος αὐτῆς γένηται ἁπαλὸς καὶ τὰ φύλλα ἐκφύῃ, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγὺς τὸ
θέρος·(33) That's if ekphuei is 3 syllables.
33οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς ὅταν ἴδητε πάντα ταῦτα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἐπὶ θύραις.(28)
34ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη ἕως ἂν πάντα ταῦτα γένηται.(28) That's if I count ews as two syllables.
35ὁ οὐρανὸς καὶ ἡ γῆ παρελεύσεται, οἱ δὲ λόγοι μου οὐ μὴ παρέλθωσιν.(22)
111

Now, let's look at the 308, where you have no elisions. I think maybe the new ones below should be accounted?

36 Περὶ δὲ τῆς ἡμέρας ἐκείνης καὶ ὥρας οὐδεὶς οἶδεν, οὐδὲ οἱ ἄγγελοι τῶν οὐρανῶν οὐδὲ ὁ Υἱός,
εἰ μὴ ὁ Πατὴρ μόνος. (39)
37 ὥσπερ γὰρ αἱ ἡμέραι τοῦ Νῶε, οὕτως ἔσται ἡ παρουσία τοῦ Υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου. (26)
38 ὡς γὰρ ἦσαν ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις ἐκείναις ταῖς πρὸ τοῦ κατακλυσμοῦ τρώγοντες
καὶ πίνοντες, γαμοῦντες καὶ γαμίζοντες, =34
ἄχρι ἧς ἡμέρας εἰσῆλθεν Νῶε εἰς τὴν κιβωτόν, =15
39 καὶ οὐκ ἔγνωσαν ἕως ἦλθεν ὁ κατακλυσμὸς καὶ ἦρεν ἅπαντας, οὕτως ἔσται καὶ ἡ παρουσία τοῦ Υἱοῦ τοῦ
ἀνθρώπου. (86) =37 so revised total is still 86, if ews is counted as two syllables.

40 τότε ἔσονται δύο ἐν τῷ ἀγρῷ, εἷς παραλαμβάνεται καὶ εἷς ἀφίεται· (22)
41 δύο ἀλήθουσαι ἐν τῷ μύλῳ, μία παραλαμβάνεται καὶ μία ἀφίεται. (24)
42 γρηγορεῖτε οὖν, ὅτι οὐκ οἴδατε ποίᾳ ἡμέρᾳ ὁ κύριος ὑμῶν ἔρχεται. (25)
43 ἐκεῖνο δὲ γινώσκετε ὅτι εἰ ᾔδει ὁ οἰκοδεσπότης ποίᾳ φυλακῇ ὁ κλέπτης ἔρχεται, ἐγρηγόρησεν
ἂν καὶ οὐκ ἂν εἴασεν διορυχθῆναι τὴν οἰκίαν αὐτοῦ. (52)

44 διὰ τοῦτο καὶ ὑμεῖς γίνεσθε ἕτοιμοι, ὅτι ᾗ οὐ δοκεῖτε ὥρᾳ ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἔρχεται. (31)

So three fewer in the 308 para. 111 +305=416. If ews is only one syllable, then total goes down to 414, so maybe there is yet another elision. Notice that through v.43, if ews is two syllables, your new sevening ends at verse 43, and is 385 (55 sevens). So then the final 217 might really be 217+31 (for verse 44), and then you'll find new elisions. Perhaps..

45 Τίς ἄρα ἐστὶν ὁ πιστὸς δοῦλος καὶ φρόνιμος ὃν κατέστησεν ὁ κύριος ἐπὶ τῆς οἰκετείας αὐτοῦ
τοῦ δοῦναι αὐτοῖς τὴν τροφὴν ἐν καιρῷ; (43)
46 μακάριος ὁ δοῦλος ἐκεῖνος ὃν ἐλθὼν ὁ κύριος αὐτοῦ εὑρήσει οὕτως ποιοῦντα· (26)
70 69
47 ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι ἐπὶ πᾶσιν τοῖς ὑπάρχουσιν αὐτοῦ καταστήσει αὐτόν. (25)
48 ἐὰν δὲ εἴπῃ ὁ κακὸς δοῦλος ἐκεῖνος ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ Χρονίζει μου ὁ κύριος,
49 καὶ ἄρξηται τύπτειν τοὺς συνδούλους αὐτοῦ, ἐσθίῃ δὲ καὶ πίνῃ μετὰ τῶν μεθυόντων,
50 ἥξει ὁ κύριος τοῦ δούλου ἐκείνου ἐν ἡμέρᾳ ᾗ οὐ προσδοκᾷ καὶ ἐν ὥρᾳ ᾗ οὐ γινώσκει, (83)
51 καὶ διχοτομήσει αὐτὸν καὶ τὸ μέρος αὐτοῦ μετὰ τῶν ὑποκριτῶν θήσει· ἐκεῖ ἔσται ὁ κλαυθμὸς καὶ ὁ βρυγμὸς τῶν ὀδόντων. (37)
147 145 , so 31+69+145=245 (35 sevens) , which may help justify the tackon claim for Matt25, since the meter isn't over yet. Because, the new total becomes 385+245=490+70+70.

Not saying these changes are right, but we have to be consistent about elisions. We can't use the same elision assumption in one section then abandon it in another.

And maybe we don't have ellipsis for the 56? Cuz look: the virgins parable is 364, which is meaningful, and +70 in prior chapter as cliffhanger, then completes the Daniel 9:26, 434. So now we need 56 more in Matt25, not 24, to finish out the 2nd 1050. But the elision changes will make a difference in whether that 56 can be 'found' or not.

Your call. You've really come up with something major, and my comments are just that.. comments.

Anonynomenon | 06 Apr 2016, 17:52

Ok, I'll take another look at the elisions.

I still think Matt 25 is a tack-on, but I also think there is an ellipsis between Matt 24 and 25. I'm working on that now, but its taking more time than I expected....but results are looking really good so far.

I'm usually hesitant about eliding 'de' because I'm not sure if the grammar is coherent when the text is recited out loud. Maybe Matt 25 is wrong?

I'll take a second look though. Thanks, you're comments are always helpful.

brainout | 06 Apr 2016, 19:55

Okay, whatever you come up with, I'm sure will be important. :)

Anonynomenon | 06 Apr 2016, 20:55

In Matt 24:40, don't you think eliding 'tote-esontai' is making the speech rhythm a little awkward?

Which sounds smoother to you?

Tote-sontai dou...

Or

Tote, esontai dou...

"Tote" introduces a new clause, like saying "then", so wouldn't that put a syntactical comma or pause between tote and esontai?

I really don't how the speech rhythm is supposed to work, I'm just going off of principles that I use in spanish and english.

What's your opinion?

brainout | 07 Apr 2016, 15:40

Yeah, that was one of the extra ellisions. I think your totals are likely right, but the elisions are different. Tote esontai probably is Tot'esontai when read aloud. Usually it's the particle or conjunction whose ending vowel gets swallowed, as in apo, kai, etc. But like you said, if the sense of the word is lost by swallowing, I'd think we're supposed to read it without ellision.

The other big thing: maybe there's no 70 in ellipsis after all. Maybe also, in Matt 25, that last para about the 2nd Coming, is not a timeline. Maybe the timeline ends with the parable of the talents.

Look for doubled 70's; or, 126's (63+63). Or, your favorite, 133 (70+63). Maybe that's what Isaiah originally meant, though the DECREE significance is still obvious, too. Decree, then VOTE.

For I think that the Lord is reconciling the pre-Church 1050 schedule with Church. Since He actually dies 64 years prior to Mill (at beginning of sacred year), the VOTING PERIODS overlap. So instead of the voting period post-Cross being 520-590 AD, it's ALSO (historically) 584-654. Or, maybe the 1050's don't change post-Cross, and I have to redo GeneYrs.xls post-Cross. In short, what you've discovered can radically change how we analyze the timeline!

What I'm trying to say is, Church has its own 1050 superimposed atop the historical 1050. That's what the Lord and Luke seem to be enumerating.

I think to show the meter you need to go by CLAUSE. You can try by verse, but notice the pattern in the Luke 21 meter (http://brainout.net/frankforum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=521), for I think he gets it from Matt24-25.

Luke first counts to Mill and then starts a new 1050, so that the 'old' calendar is preserved. Total in Luke is 1085, which is the sum of 35, his years-to-Mill when writing, plus the 1050 on the old pre-Church schedule. YET he also COUNTS that 63 opener as being part of the 1050. At Matt 24:32, 'Learn the parable of the fig tree' clause, which is 14 syllables, Luke marks a clause of same length, so you could COUNT it and end at 1050 rather than 1036 (just before v.32 begins). So we're looking at TWO 1050 mappings, pre-Church and Church!

Seems like the Lord did that, first, treating Matt24-25 as you suspected as one whole, starting with 63 then 1050x3 then ends with 49. For the syllable count then is the same as your total count. So if you break by clause, you might 'find' the 63 in the first two verses, and 'find' the breakpoints of each 1050, and the final 49.

In short, He seems to be playing out the Talmudic 7000, but with the real 1050's, not merely 2000 each.

63 then becomes the first dateline, meaning at the end of the year it's 63 years to Mill (still 30 AD), and 63 years prior was 33 BC when Augustus was still Octavian and just coming into power over Anthony (when 2nd Triumverate died).

The final 609 para on eternity, might instead be not part of the timeline. In which case, the timeline ends at 63+1050+1050+490.

Anonynomenon | 09 Apr 2016, 21:46

Ok. I'm looking over Matt 24 again. I got rid of the elision in 'Tot-ean' in vers 23. I was always hesitant about that on. Again, I feel that there should be a brief pause after words like tote and de.

So far, only one elision change, I would not be comfortable with the phonetics in the 308 or the 70 if I made any elisions there.

Still got more to look over, so I'll let you know.

brainout | 10 Apr 2016, 07:23

Roger your post. Do the parsing by clause, then it will be easier to see where the ellisions go. You should end up with 63 as your first sevening, then still your 84, then most of the other ones, but the style is years-to-Mill (which is 63) plus 490+70+490 taking Matt24-25 as one chapter; so your sevenings will change, even if the same syllable counts. The total will be the 63 over plus 2100 + 490 plus maybe a 70 ellipsis, by the time you get to the end of Matt 25:30 (now your syllable 966, which total will change if you lump the chapters together). By the time you end the chapter, you should have 3 1050s plus an overage of 49 + 63 and/or maybe the ellipsis of the 70.

You should find that the 490+70+490s break cleanly, if you do by clause rather than by verse. Totals seem right but elisions change the subsevens. I can tell it's deliberate, either playing on the Messiah 2000 or the whole Enochian 7000 (really 1050 per, but you know that). Christ is reconciling the old pre-Church Timeline to the 'Church' superimposed 1050 changeover, so the extra 63 is to count up to the old Millennium deadline, first. But it just runs over in the totals, at the end.

Anonynomenon | 10 Apr 2016, 09:33

Understood. It'll be a while before I can look closer at matt 24. I've hit a few snags in what I'm working on now and had to fix some mistakes I made. But so far this is really blowing my mind.

Look at Daniel 9:25

מִן־מֹצָ֣א דָבָ֗ר לְהָשִׁיב֙

You have that portion listed as 7 syllables, but I counted 8. If you add the 6 (weteda' wetashkel)+ 8 (min mozsa dabar lehashiv), you get sub-sevening (6+8=14). By the time you reach "Yerushalim" its a total of 84 syllables (starting from vers 24). The decree to restore Jerusalem.

You have: 6+7+7+21+10+6=57

So far I've got: 6+8+7+21+9+6=57

I think that your ellipses of 14 and 56 in Matt 24 is correct, because so far Daniel's 231 is picking up where Matt 24:51 left off. The 84th syllable (Jerusalem Decree) from Dan 9:24-25 seems to be tagging 1869 AD, when Nahalat Shiva becomes the 3rd major settlement out side of the city walls in Jerusalem. It was funded by a Jewish money pool.

The "Decree to Restore" (לְהָשִׁיב֙) is the 77th syllable from Dan 9:24 corresponds to Moses Hess' publication, "Rome and Jerusalem" in 1862 AD. It was a call for a Jewish homeland in Palestine with Jerusalem as the capital. That publication fueled the modern Zionist movement.

This is crazy, I never expected to see and tagging related to the modern Israeli state.

brainout | 10 Apr 2016, 09:52

Okay, well I don't think that's how God's reply to Daniel works (forward timeline into Church Age, since God's reply regards Jewish Time only), but hey: run with it, who knows.

Anonynomenon | 10 Apr 2016, 10:14

That's exactly what I was thinking too. First I tried the 231+7 from Ephesians, but really couldn't lock on to anything, so I figured I might as well try Daniel. When I was looking at Ephesians, I was looking at American history. I think that's why I couldn't get a pattern, I was just about to give up on Daniel too, but then I noticed a lot of trends between Napoleon, Holy Rome, and the Ottomans. I need to see how far it goes, then maybe Ephesians will click. Since the Church is just an indefinite extension of the 62nd Week, it might work.

What if the numbers are like universal puzzle pieces? Like maybe any 133 can be transplanted from one meter onto another 133 meter to develop a more detailed timeline?

brainout | 10 Apr 2016, 22:53

Well, it seems more like the Enochian Timeline idea but there ends up being an overhang (past 7350) of 49. So not exactly interchangeable puzzle pieces, but it's strange how you have to take the first clause of the fig tree parable to complete the second 490 (really 63+ to reconcile to pre-Church, but the recon isn't until the end).

So the 434 you had, becomes 420, and then that 70 piece completes to 490, so the 147 remaining becomes 70+77 (which is why I want to see it reparsed by clause, as I think those benchmarks will show up). End Chapter 24.

Chapter 25 then has the 364 appended but needs another 49, which is taken from the parable of the talents at beginning, closing the second 1050. Again, parsing by clause ought to show these benchmarks.

So now its 602 becomes 553, starting the 3rd and last 1050, which when added to those before Christ, would end at 7350. So remaining, take 7 from the last 609 (which is even more strange, as its text is about 2nd advent and eternity), leaving again.. 602. All you need of it, is 490, so then 112 left over, which is our 63 equidistant ending, and then an overhang PAST 7350, of 49. Clearly making up for the REAL lost sabbatical years back during Rehoboam through 1st Temple.

Now, there still could be some ellipsis, but it doesn't look like any is intended. The above scenario is EXACTLY structured like Luke 21, but for a longer time period. Luke aligns precisely to Matt 24 at 63, 1036, 1050. All the Matt 25 text is covered in EARLIER Luke chapters, so I don't know why (well, the virgins parable isn't presented as virgins, but similarly sitting and waiting for a master at midnight).

In sum, I think the timeline is saying that although the Rapture could occur ANYTIME, it can also continue (and seems implied likely to continue) until the end of the Enochian 7000 which is really 1050*7, plus the credit owed on the 49 missed sabbatical years which Israel 'spent' so the Gentile Time must get that credit.

So AT LEAST that long to 'balance' to some other original timeline, which kinda baffles me, given how Moses didn't meter it that way in Psalm 90 (unless the meter really is double entendre, 7 fifties as well as five 70's). So were there TWO TIMELINES FOR HISTORY pre-Church? Or is that last 1050, supposed to be the Mill, and the previous 2100 is for 'Messiah' just as Talmud Sanhedrin 97-99 claim? In which case, the Rapture is unpredictable for a different reason: because we FAIL as Church, so God has to call us home. Just so happens that when we fail, we are complete in Bodies, just as Christ paid, on time.

So maybe it's as simple as a Time BUDGET similar to what Israel had, but NO TIME GUARANTEE it will complete. Just a schedule. Which, is not very different from pre-Church, in that the goyim were to get 2100 years, then the Jews 2100 years, then Messiah gets His Own 2100, just as we see in garbled form, in the Talmud. EXCEPT that 'our' 2100 is NOT guaranteed to complete. Maybe THAT is why the end of the 1036 doesn't textually end well, but requires that next verse on 'learn from the parable of the fig tree', which is 14 syllables, overlapping the text meaning. And so on, to the end of Chapter 25.

Multiple Time Books being balanced. But this is the first instance of the Enochian 7000 idea I've found in the Bible.

If so, and Rapture happens early, did God not keep some old TIME promise? DID it become abrogated? Does it include some Angelic Time? Questions, questions.

Anonynomenon | 11 Apr 2016, 01:13

What do you mean by Enochian Timeline? I've heard people claim a time period of 5,500 years from the Book of Adam or one of the books of Enoch, but I'm not into that stuff.

So far, my hypothesis on the Rapture is one of 'potential imminence' rather than 'random imminence'. What I mean is, the Rapture seems to be contingent on three factors:

1. Volition and maturity of the king(s)
2. Allotted growth time for the king(s)
3. King-to-citizen ratio

So, if too many citizens, then a new king is needed. If too many kings, then more citizens are needed. In either case, time is needed for the maturity of the kings or the salvation of the citizens.

When all three of these factors line up, then Rapture can happen.

I also wonder if the meter shows exit points like on a highway. If you're driving down the interstate, you can't just get off whenever you feel like it. You have to watch for the next exit. So what if Paul's "what if's" were more than that? What if he was laying out potential exit points that the Church missed due to spritual stagnation/atrophy?

Anyways, that is one hypothesis that I'd like to test. I've never given Enoch much thought, but he was taken from the earth, so it might be significant.

Anonynomenon | 11 Apr 2016, 02:53

Ok, I would not elide Νῶε εἰς in Matt 24:38. It doesn't sound right to me, and it brings the count down to 85. I already have ἕως as two syllables. Try counting that again.

However, you can elide καὶ ἦρεν in verse 39.

So for Matt 36-39b, ending at Υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, I get 150 syllables, which is the number of days the flood waters persisted. I do like that.

Ok, I applied the elisions you suggested with a few modifications of my own to correct a mistake I think you made in your counts.

32a. Ἀπὸ δὲ τῆς συκῆς μάθετε τὴν παραβολήν•(14)
14 syllables

32b. ὅταν ἤδη ὁ κλάδος αὐτῆς γένηται ἁπαλὸς καὶ τὰ φύλλα ἐκφύῃ, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγὺς τὸ θέρος•(32)
33οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς ὅταν ἴδητε πάντα ταῦτα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἐπὶ θύραις.(28)
34ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη ἕως ἂν πάντα ταῦτα γένηται.(28)
35ὁ οὐρανὸς καὶ ἡ γῆ παρελεύσεται, οἱ δὲ λόγοι μου οὐ μὴ παρέλθωσιν.(22)
36Περὶ δὲ τῆς ἡμέρας ἐκείνης καὶ ὥρας οὐδεὶς οἶδεν, οὐδὲ οἱ ἄγγελοι τῶν οὐρανῶν οὐδὲ ὁ Υἱός, εἰ μὴ ὁ Πατὴρ μόνος.(39)
37ὥσπερ γὰρ αἱ ἡμέραι τοῦ Νῶε, οὕτως ἔσται ἡ παρουσία τοῦ Υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου.(26)
175 syllables

38ὡς γὰρ ἦσαν ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις ἐκείναις ταῖς πρὸ τοῦ κατακλυσμοῦ τρώγοντες καὶ πίνοντες, γαμοῦντες καὶ γαμίζοντες, ἄχρι ἧς ἡμέρας εἰσῆλθεν Νῶε εἰς τὴν κιβωτόν,(50)
39a.καὶ οὐκ ἔγνωσαν ἕως ἦλθεν ὁ κατακλυσμὸς καὶ ἦρεν ἅπαντας,(19)
39b.οὕτως ἔσται καὶ ἡ παρουσία τοῦ Υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου.(16)
40τότε ἔσονται δύο ἐν τῷ ἀγρῷ, εἷς παραλαμβάνεται καὶ εἷς ἀφίεται•(24)
41δύο ἀλήθουσαι ἐν τῷ μύλῳ, μία παραλαμβάνεται καὶ μία ἀφίεται.(24)
133 syllables

42γρηγορεῖτε οὖν, ὅτι οὐκ οἴδατε ποίᾳ ἡμέρᾳ ὁ κύριος ὑμῶν ἔρχεται.(25)
43ἐκεῖνο δὲ γινώσκετε ὅτι εἰ ᾔδει ὁ οἰκοδεσπότης ποίᾳ φυλακῇ ὁ κλέπτης ἔρχεται, ἐγρηγόρησεν ἂν καὶ οὐκ ἂν εἴασεν διορυχθῆναι τὴν οἰκίαν αὐτοῦ.(52)
77 syllables

44διὰ τοῦτο καὶ ὑμεῖς γίνεσθε ἕτοιμοι, ὅτι ᾗ οὐ δοκεῖτε ὥρᾳ ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἔρχεται.(32)
45Τίς ἄρα ἐστὶν ὁ πιστὸς δοῦλος καὶ φρόνιμος ὃν κατέστησεν ὁ κύριος ἐπὶ τῆς οἰκετείας αὐτοῦ τοῦ δοῦναι αὐτοῖς τὴν τροφὴν ἐν καιρῷ;(43)
46μακάριος ὁ δοῦλος ἐκεῖνος ὃν ἐλθὼν ὁ κύριος αὐτοῦ εὑρήσει οὕτως ποιοῦντα•(26)
47ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι ἐπὶ πᾶσιν τοῖς ὑπάρχουσιν αὐτοῦ καταστήσει αὐτόν.(25)
126 syllables

48ἐὰν δὲ εἴπῃ ὁ κακὸς δοῦλος ἐκεῖνος ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ Χρονίζει μου ὁ κύριος, 49καὶ ἄρξηται τύπτειν τοὺς συνδούλους αὐτοῦ, ἐσθίῃ δὲ καὶ πίνῃ μετὰ τῶν μεθυόντων, 50ἥξει ὁ κύριος τοῦ δούλου ἐκείνου ἐν ἡμέρᾳ ᾗ οὐ προσδοκᾷ καὶ ἐν ὥρᾳ ᾗ οὐ γινώσκει,(82)
51a.καὶ διχοτομήσει αὐτὸν καὶ τὸ μέρος αὐτοῦ μετὰ τῶν ὑποκριτῶν θήσει•(23)
105 syllables

51b.ἐκεῖ ἔσται ὁ κλαυθμὸς καὶ ὁ βρυγμὸς τῶν ὀδόντων. 14 syllables

Ok, so this is what I came up with. I pushed for more elisions and found more subsevening. However, I'm not comfortable with some of these elisions;
καρδίᾳ-αὐτοῦ
δὲ-εἴπῃ
αὐτοῦ-εὑρήσει (I really don't like this one at all. I don't like to elide H's) ὁ-οἰκοδεσπότης
ἐκεῖ-ἔσται

At the same time, I do see what you mean with Matt 25. I'll have to reparse the beginning of Matt 24 and all of 25 before we can make any further assumptions. So far, a total of 7 syllables have been elided, so maybe more will disappear.

brainout | 11 Apr 2016, 14:03

My replies are within yours, but in green.

brainout | 11 Apr 2016, 14:26

Again, my replies are within yours, in green. But these proposed changes may be different if per-clause parsings and cumulative totals were run, because those latter two mechanics reveal where ellisions belong.

Anonynomenon | 12 Apr 2016, 05:21

I decided to look at Matt 24:1-2 to see if I should change my elisions. It doesn't feel right to do so. I found a rhythm to the text once you separate Matthews padding from Jesus' words.

This is verse 2 transliterated without Matthews padding. The elision will be in red, but try to see the rhythm. The dashes will show how some syllables piggyback each other to form a rhythm.

"Ou--blepete panta--tauta?" (8 syll)
"Amein lego humin (6 syll), ou-mei aphethei hode (6 syll) lithos epi lithon (6 syll) hos ou--kata-luthei-setai." (8 syll).

Try drumming on the desk as you read it; 8+6+6+6+8.

If you elide δὲ εἴπῃ in verse 48, then you have to be consistent in eliding δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς in verse 2. If you do that, then you can't elide μὴ ἀφεθῇ in verse 2, and you therefore lose the poetic cadence of our Lord's words.

brainout | 12 Apr 2016, 07:58

Yeah, definitely a rhythm, like marching, 'foot' classical Greek*. Dia touto, here's what seems to be a better metering for Matt24:1-2. Syllable totals the same, but ellisions not:

1 Καὶ ἐξελθὼν ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἀπὸ τοῦ ἱεροῦ ἐπορεύετο (pronounced epo-ruWEHto), 16 The first seven syllables coincide with Paul's Eulogetos ho theos, and krasis still means a ka-ye sound, so no ellision.
καὶ προσῆλθον οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ ἐπιδεῖξαι 14/30
αὐτῷ τὰς οἰκοδομὰς τοῦ ἱεροῦ. 10/40

2 ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς 9/49 First dateline. 49 years prior, Herod started Temple rebuilding. 49 years later, Vespasian (guy in charge of Jeru siege), dies. So too Pompeii. Those would become famous and poignant dates. Of course, 'God speaks' when you die or natural disaster. Ouch.
Οὐ βλέπετε ταῦτα πάντα; 8/57 He was supposed to die 57 years prior to Mill.
ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, 6/63 Christ talks here AND dies BOY 64 yrs pre-Church Mill on sacred, but 63 on civil. 63 years prior, ended the 2nd Triumvirate. Ties topically, cuz had this not happened, there'd have been no Herod to rebuild the Temple, he was on Antony's side.
οὐ μὴ ἀφεθῇ ὧδε λίθος 9/72 Balances to first clause, same rhythm.
ἐπὶ λίθον ὃς οὐ καταλυθήσεται. 12/84
Poignant again, the 12 tribes will go into diaspora or as slaves, accompany Titus to his Dad Emperor Vespasian, in Rome during the latter's first year of reign (Vesp crowned Dec 22 '69).

I don't agree that de-eipe must always be the same as de apokritheis, such that if one elided then the other must be also. However, often they both should be elided. Also, eta is not usually ellided unless the next sound is the same kind; but the epsilon often is, since it's short.

*Re that rhythm you notice, You'll remember this from Thieme's classes on Titus 1:12. Seems like Matthew and/or the Lord is composing both Bible meter and sometimes (as here) partial classical Greek meters?

• http://www.aoidoi.org/articles/meter/intro.pdf This one is really helpful.
• https://slate.com/human-interest/2014/09/iambic-pentameter-and-other-terms-from-ancient-greek-poetry-why-does-english-use-them.html
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dactylic_hexameter
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexameter

Anonynomenon | 13 Apr 2016, 06:13

Ok. I reparsed Matt 24 by clause. The portion highlighted in yellow is what I had the most trouble with, so take a look at it, and tell me what you think.

The total is 1680 syllables, which is 7 shorter than we originally thought. The 14 in verse 32a marks the 1050 point. That is pretty blunt.

Have at it. I'm exhausted yet again. Good nite.

brainout | 13 Apr 2016, 11:34

It is exhausting, alright! And apparently you thought I meant legal clause rather than grammatical clause? In my just-prior post I separated verses 1-2 by grammatical clause, whether it sevens or not, because non-sevening has doctrinal meaning as well.

A grammatical clause begins with a preposition or a kai, and the commas though not part of the original text, help you spot clauses which terminate. When a nominative terminates with a verb, then another nominative, that next nominative begins a new grammatical clause. A sentence may have one or more clauses in it, but the clauses are natural 'subsets' of the sentence.

Now, if you think the grammatical clauses are different, then do what you think is better, but it's by CLAUSE where the sevening shows up best. Note how the clauses for 49 and 63, are on something God (or Christ, since He's also God) SAYS.

The whole chapter needs to be done that way, with cum totals per grammatical clause, as in my prior post, though you pick the style you want, to show it. Same for Matt 25.

As for the yellowed paragraph from Matt24:28-31, I thought you didn't want to elide rough breathing? Agreed that you shouldn't, so that whole section's numbers need to be redone as well. Doing by clause helps you know where ellision is to be used, as well. Also, spotting dipthongs, like in eporeueto. The eue is a weh sound. So it's not an ellision, but a dipthong (where combined vowels are pronounced as one syllable).

Take a break for awhile.

Anonynomenon | 13 Apr 2016, 15:15

K. I'll have to brush up on my grammar and look it over again. I guess the problem is that I keep second guessing myself

I didn't want to elide the hard breathing, but look at verse 14.

Vs 14 kai tot-heixei to telos.

If I elide, the paragraph is 77. Do you consider "kai tot-heixei to telos" a clause of its own? Like a tagg along clause? If it is, then its 70+7 (the "end" being tribulation).

brainout | 14 Apr 2016, 07:48

yeah, a clause begins with kai, but I'd not elide over rough breathing. However, look at all the prepositions which elide their last vowel IN WRITING just before rough breathing, like met' heautou. The apostrophe is in the text. Even so, I've not elided with rough breathing following. So I'd use kai tote heixei to telos.

brainout | 14 Apr 2016, 16:51

EDIT: Corrected and replaced 4/15/16. Provided in both the same Word and now pdf.

Hey, Anony: I thought I'd run both chapters together to see what happens.. Attached is a WORD doc draft.

Version is Word 2002, so compatible backwards with Word97 if you still use that, and forward to all versions of Word, though you have to maybe use the special .reg fixes for old Word files you can fix or download from MSFT.

Not saying my red-underlined ellisions/dipthongs are right. But instead of using a logical paragraph, I just parsed by clause where the line was too long, and by verse where it wasn't too long. Since the Lord or Matthew is mapping meter to reconcile pre-Church 1050 to post-Church 1050, there's a 63 piece at the end, which keeps on running through. But the Church 1050 clearly started also in 30 AD rather than the pre-Church 1050 which would be hit 63 years later (counting from 31 AD).

This means the logical paragraphs per the text, overlap, i.e., the parable of the fig tree line in Matt24:32, starts at syllable 1037 in the text. Cute, since Church time overlays Israel's time, and even 1000 years later, that shouldn't be forgotten. Also, the year is 1067ff, which is the time Israel was yet overrun again, by competing Moslems (Byzantium in 1071, Jerusalem in 1073).

The text includes the variants, and there are rather more than I knew. So the text may slightly differ from what you had. Most variants I eliminated, because a) they weren't in Sinaiticus but Vaticanus or neither, and b) they were grammatically redundant. The variant shows with a strikeover.

Anonynomenon | 14 Apr 2016, 20:41

Lol, I see you elided 'ouai'.

I'm not comfortable with some of those dipthongs. For example, euangelion I count as 5 syllables. You must be pronouncing it 'euangel-yon', but in order to get that you have to treat it as two separate word. If you say it fast as one word, the 'i' stands separate from the 'o'.

Same goes for 'mia'. I count two syllables.

Then there's ἐκεῖ-ἔσται. If this is a legitimate ellision, then so could be 'kai-ek'.

I don't think Nwe is one syllables, and I'm not sure of how I feel about 'ews' yet either. Maybe if they were spelled with an O-micron or upsilon, it might be different, but in my opinion, O-MEGA is too long of a vowel to be ellided in that manor.

brainout | 14 Apr 2016, 22:27

Well, ekei estai is not the same as kai-ek-whatever. The latter produces a ka-ye sound. But just ignore what I ellided or treated as dipthong. Do the meter first WITH NO ellision or dipthongs, see what happens. The clause separation will show you where the ellisions go, and frankly the benchmarks will become obvious.

I think the key to the ellision is the benchmarks. Nwe and mia might be two syllables after all, but remember Hebraisms will abound, so Yesous not I-E-sous. Question is, where they are: is it himat-yon, euangel-yon, since Jews read the text?

Solution: I suspect there is a 'theme' to the sevened benchmarks, where the lines which seven separately serialise a precis of THE LORD SAYS as the theme. That first 49 tipped me off to it.

I'm going to redo the meter as if all i+vowel constructions were y+vowel, see what happens. I didn't do that uniformly, but maybe I should. It would still mean ekei+estai is 3 syllables, but a kai-estai (not a real phrase) would be three also.

Film at 11. Well, later than that, this will take time.

Anonynomenon | 14 Apr 2016, 23:06

Yeah, I would expect Hebraism to carry over into the NT meter. At this point, the only thing I know to do is to try comparing some variation of the new ellision assumptions vs my older model. I have seen instances where historical bench marks have corrected some of my ellisions, so I'll just have to go by the bench marks.

I do see how the new ellision you posited create a more attractive pattern, but I don't know that the subsevening is that prevalent in this meter. If Church is failing, then wouldn't the meter lack subsevening? Same for Israel in the first 84...Israel failed, so maybe no subsevening.

I don't want to jump to any conlusions, so I'll start a timeline from verse. We should start seeing results immediately.

brainout | 15 Apr 2016, 00:27

I should clarify: the sevening at the historical benchmarks like dateline, 490, 560, 1050 plus the leading 63, will all have a serial 'theme' where you link the words together for each benchmark and they make a LORD SAYS precis. The subsevening that results 'below' that, yes -- very little after some initial explosion of growth -- means little positive volition. But you'll notice, that near the ends of the 1050's, there are a series of sevens. Each time. So there is a pattern. However, the pattern changes depending on our ellision assumptions, so I want to figure out WHAT those assumptions should be. So I'm picking 'classes' of assumptions, like dipthongs (which technically aren't ellisions) and cases where a word ends with the same vowel as the next word starts. See what happens.

What you decide to do may be different. It's all painstaking, since there is no computer program we can write to just change the meter for us, but it still helps to see whether we can find the BIBLE's formatting, however long it takes.

Anonynomenon | 15 Apr 2016, 05:25

I noticed you had this in verse Matt 24:40, τότε δύο ἔσονται.

Nestle GNT 1904, which is what's available to me has the words in a different order: τότε ἔσονται δύο. Which one do you think is accurate?

brainout | 15 Apr 2016, 05:52

Well, it doesn't matter for syllable counts. Use what you think best. BTW, I just search-checked Matthew, and he abbreviates dia to di when the next word begins with a, so dia is always two syllables.

Matthew uses the i as a yod, often. So I'm testing which times he DOESN'T do that. See Matt1 for how he Hebraizes the i, here: MatthewMeterR.pdf.

Anonynomenon | 15 Apr 2016, 05:53

αὶ ἐξελθὼν ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἀπὸ τοῦ ἱεροῦ

If we elide as shown above, there are 11 syllables.

30 AD + 11= 41 AD--Caligula dies, and the Jews are spared from persecution for not worshiping Caligula's statue. So Caligula's planned abomination exits the Temple. He died before the statue could be build from what I can tell.

brainout | 15 Apr 2016, 05:57

Again, kai-exz would be ka-yexz, so you don't shorten the syllable count. Paul's Eulogetos ho Theos matches Matt 24:1 then exactly and wittily: Jesus left the building to Heaven, praise God Who He also is (Theos hits Yesous spot on).

Anonynomenon | 15 Apr 2016, 06:26

So what do you think those 12 syllables would be tagging. I see what you mean, and Matts eporweto lines up with Paul's kuriou heimwn, but there also has to be relevant historical tagging.

Anonynomenon | 15 Apr 2016, 07:03

Looks like the 49th syllable (εἶπεν αὐτοῖς) Matt 24 could by tagging Vespian's death in 79 AD. His last words where, "I think I'm turning into a god."

Did Paul tag Vespian?

brainout | 15 Apr 2016, 07:56

I don't think the first 12 syllables are a dateline, but it helps to see Paul's text line up.

Yes, Paul did mark Vespasian, at 'katen' of 'katenopian autou', since after all, Vespasian died an unbeliever, NOT QUITE BEFORE GOD after he died. Paul tagged all the Roman emperors so deftly, each ETA in thelematos anaphora (three times) marks the death of one of them (Trajan, Macrinus, Diocletian). Get the pun? The WILL of the dying Emperor is undone by the successor (and it's true, Hadrian gave back all Trajan gained, the Severan mothers undid all of Macrinus' brief reign, Constantine reversed Diocletian by aping him).

BTW, in Matthew, ouai is really two syllables, but himation is only three. o-wai, and himat-yon. Doesn't alter the sevening.

Anonynomenon | 15 Apr 2016, 08:26

I reparsed chapter 24 by clause this time, some of my clauses are smaller than the ones you had, but so far, Im getting the same counts as you. I'll have to continue tomorrow.

I agree that himatyon works as three syllables. I don't think it works in all cases, but you have to say the word quickly to see how the "iota's" come out. From my experience, an 'I' coming after a rolled 'R' or an 'L' will likely produce its own syllable.

brainout | 15 Apr 2016, 09:28

Right, the r and l are liquid, just like in Hebrew, so vowels naturally congregate. BTW, there's a huge counting error in Chapter 25, I'm fixing it now, and the fix is astonishing. NO GROUP GROWTH until Thieme started teaching (wouldn't have only been him, Matt25:10-11 if the counts are right) -- for 273 years. Just know the meantime, that all of Chapter 25 is being redone.

And kurie is two syllables, so too numphios. Will revisit Chapter 24 after I see how 25 turns out.

brainout | 15 Apr 2016, 13:20

I redid the doc, made corrections but left 24 mostly alone (minor fixes). It now balances with your 147 to Luke 21's singling it out at the end as 70+77, but the total ending is 3150+77 (63+14). 63 is carryover from 'old' pre-Church 1050. I didn't change the doc name, but only the new version is in the same link: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=512&p=2219#p2219

Anonynomenon | 25 Aug 2015, 22:51

Wow. Ok, I'll have to take a closer look at your parsing of Matt 25 this weekend.

brainout | 16 Apr 2016, 05:06

Well, I don't know if you should look at it, but you can EDIT what I did to your own liking with less effort. Right now, I'm just trying to find how Matthew is crafting the two chapters. Now, thanks again to you, I'm sure they are meant to run together. But is Matthew treating the i's Jewish-style like he did in his own Chapter 1, as yods? And what TOTAL is used? It should be at least 3150+63, as Luke apes that style, must have gotten it from Matthew. Formula for the total, is years to Mill plus x number of 1050s. Plus some remainder to show that it's not 'over', necessarily, even then.

For just as you said, it's a Church Mortality Table (likelihood of Rapture due to apostasy). So the remainder helps one remember that this isn't a PROMISE of Time as in Israel's covenant, but yet uses the 7000 idea to convey the future of Apostate Church.

Anonynomenon | 16 Apr 2016, 05:16

I need look at it to try an alternate parsing for Matt 25. Because, you treat kurios (and its variant forms) as 3 syllables in Matt 24, but then as 2 syllables in Matt 25. I firmly believe that kurios is three solid syllables. That would be the case in any language that uses a rolled 'r'. Or maybe I'm wrong. But if I'm right, then there might be sub-sevening in some very interesting places.

I won't have time to do it tonight though.

Edit:

WHAT IF...syllable 1993 is really 1995? Since you treat kurios as 3 syllables in matt 24, you have to do the same for matt 25. The rolled 'r' excites the 'I', making it its own syllable. Then, if you treat δύο as one syllable (pronounced Hebraically: dthwo).

it would give verse 15 a nice symmetrical rhythm.

καὶ ᾧ μὲν ἔδωκεν πέντε τάλαντα, ᾧ δὲ δύο, ᾧ δὲ ἕν.

It would change the sevening, but I need to see how far it can go.

EDIT!

Then in verse 15 ἰδίαν (pronounced idthyan)...puts it right back on track on 2100.

AND!!! the rest of verse 15 has the same rhythm.

καὶ ᾧ μὲν ἔδωκεν πέντε τάλαντα, ᾧ δὲ δύο, ᾧ δὲ ἕν.

ἑκάστῳ κατὰ τὴν ἰδίαν δύναμιν, καὶ ἀπεδήμησεν.

Ok. I need to sleep now. I have a very long day of work ahead of me, and I don't know how Im going to keep my mind off the meter long enough to sleep.

brainout | 16 Apr 2016, 09:15

Thank you. I didn't mean to treat kurios as three syllables, missed reparsing those. The liquid r REPLACES the 'i', which is why two syllables. So kur-yos not kur-i-os, IF Matthew is continuing the Hebraistic use if the i as a yod.

Okay, redid and still get 1673 at the end; mia and Nwe are back at two syllables each, plus anomia is 4 syll, because Matt uses dia as two syllables elsewhere (di' as abbreviation means he accounts it as di-a). So any dia endings, should be two syllables, never mind it has a Yah sound. So now will recheck and repost the revision later.

Bonus: that change helped prove the amen leyw humiv phrase (sometimes with hoti) is a benchmarker. Now I balance to 1540. Matthew is using it anaphorically, which will mean the syllable counts between each such phrase (counting their syllables or not) will SEVEN or be evenly divisible by 3.

Paul does that in Eph1 (eudokia..thelematos, epainon, then alliteratively with proeto, prothesin, proelpikotos). So maybe Matt24-25 is where he gets that rhetorical device, though it was long common in classical Greek. So the Lord, whose mother knew classical Greek, would know that and have taught Him. The anaphora is the smoking gun to meter correctness. So once we can find it, then we can know FOR SURE where the ellisions (if any) should be.

And yes, the rhythm of the same phrases has to be the same throughout. If you want to treat all uses of of kuri- as three syllables, then do. I'm not asserting that 'my' tally is right. I know it has to be 3150+63, at minimum. I don't know the maximum. I do know it has to be consistent, for the very reasons you're stating. But I don't know for sure what is the consistency intended. The Hebraistic 'yod' usage is in Matt 1, so I'm trying it out in the parsing provided so far.

💡

Last edited by brainout on 16 Apr 2016, 16:25, edited 1 time in total.

Anonynomenon | 16 Apr 2016, 17:45

K. I'm glad to hear about the anaphora as it will help us lock in some of the parsing. Can't wait to get home and get cracking.

brainout | 16 Apr 2016, 19:31

EDITS are highlighted. I figured out the sevening, now.

Okay, in each case the difference between the amen leyw humin clauses is divisible by 3 or 7, but the reason for the anaphora is to center on a key turning point IN HISTORY. So now I gotta go find what that is. It will be very noticeable. Dunno when I'll come up for air! When Paul did this, it took me 100 pages of writing in REPARSED to explain, and I really never finished!

Paul used the anaphora on two 'tracks' 1) playing on the 231-x in Daniel 9:24-27 and Magnificat; 2) playing on Noah's 308 or 315 or 364.

Am fainting now.

First amen leyw humin starts in Matt 24:2, syllable 57 prior, 63 at end (no hoti). Remember, Nwe, mia, and anomia now aren't dipthongs. Meter count is 6 syllables.

Next is verse 34, syll 1110 before, 1118 after (includes hoti). Trinity meter at 1110-63 OR 57. So is the first amen leyw humin occurrence included or not? Enquiring minds want to know. 💡

Treat the count as from 1110-57, so the total meter count is 1053, or 351 threes.

3rd is v.47, syll 1532 before, 1540 after (again includes hoti); Anaphora therefore, 3 times. 1532-1118 is Trinity meter, excluding the clause, so you exclude it from the totals, too; count still stands at 1053. Else, no meter. So the 63 includes the first occurrence; the 1532 excludes the 2nd.

4th is 25:12, syll 2000 before, 2006 after (no hoti). 2000 OR 2006 -1532=Trinity Meter. So assume 2000-1532. So now the third occurrence is included. So add to the count, 468, so 1053+468=1521, or 507 threes.

5th is v.40, syll 2960 before, 2966 after (no hoti). Get this: 2960-2000 (or 2006, but presume 2000) =Trinity meter, but 2966-2000 SEVENS. So if I include BOTH the fourth and fifth occurrences, it sevens. First time I could find this happening! As if to make up for the 2nd occurrence being left out, in Chapter 24:34! Roman snub? Like Matthew leaving out Athaliah's line from Chapter 1?

So add to the count, 2966-2000=966+1521=2487, 829 threes.

Last is v.45, 3169 before, 3175 after (no hoti). 3169-2966 SEVENS at 203 (Temple Down).

So the new threes' total is.. NOT. For the 203 addition, is not divisible by 3. HOWEVER, if instead we take 3175-1540, which was the THIRD anaphora of amen legw humin, ending Chapter 24, we get 1635 as the difference, and THAT is 545 threes.

SO: there is an OVERLAP at 1532-1540. Correlates to 1562-1570 AD, during the voting period which occurs during the REFORMATION. Because, 1540-63= 211 sevens, but 3175-1540, is 545 threes. So if counting by threes, I can't finish but the period gets overlapped. If STOPPING at 1540, it sevens; then picking up at 1540 going to 3175, no overlap, it threes. Why?

Now, Paul built his anaphora of Time based on the BETWEENS, creating a nexus in the middle. Here, that would be the 3rd one. The one which EXCLUDES the second occurrence of amen leyw humin. Why?

Finally, the sum of the anaphora must seven. It doesn't, all the way. It sevens from 1540-63. It only threes, after that; putting the hoti on the next line doesn't help.

I gotta think about that, because it's been awhile since I worked on how Paul did it. Suspect he's aping the Lord, so now gotta go figure that out.

🕺💃

YIKES! There IS an overlap, and it's a doozie!

1540 (end of 3rd amen legw humin, last in chapter 24) -63 = 1477 years, = 211 SEVENS.

3175 (end of last amen legw humin in Chapter 25) - 1110 (when 2nd amen legw humin of Chap 24 starts) = 2065, 295 sevens, total of 506 sevens, and the overlap is 430 years (same as the time Israel was in Egypt, 400 of which at the end, were slavery)! The 430 is neither divisible by seven nor by 3.

Now when Paul did this, he used the overlap to show a turning point in history (centered around Constantine after he beat Licinius and then started NEW ROME), Eph 1:12. And so it was: that's when Church officially became political, uniting Church and State.

Well, Paul denoted the CAUSE, for in our overlap HERE IN MATTHEW, during 1110+30 to 1540+30, the Catholic Church had everyone in thrall. 1540+30 was when (on April 21), the POPE excommunicated Elizabeth I, and England finally did have HER Reformation, lasting until (ding ding ding) the end of the historical voting period none of them even knew, 1640 AD (Matthew 25 benchmarks 1607 rather than 1610, if I did the parsing right in that section). BIBLE FREED FROM SLAVERY AT LAST.

BTW, the diekonesamen in v.44, is now 6 syll (nee: 5). Again, because it seems the di sound is separated by Matthew in writing (de remains swallowed when post-positive particle de).

RonEzboulder | 16 Apr 2016, 22:19

Boy! You two are busy little beavers! Having only found you a couple of days ago, I still am very lost! Question: Why are you metering Matt.24? Is the END-ALL an attempt to find the day of the Lords return? Or, are you trying to chart ALL history until that time? IF a syllible=year you've got a WHOLE LOT OF WORK AHEAD! What's your "end game"?

Anonynomenon | 25 Aug 2015, 22:51

@ Ron I'm particularly interested in knowing about the structure of the Church Age. I don't expect Matt 24-25 to provide the date of our Lord's return, but I do believe it might show some recurrent 'time window' potentials for the end of the age. Where are we now on that timeline? What historical trends can we expect to see in the near future?

Jesus' disciples asked Him,"when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Jesus replied with Matt 24-25. To fully understand His answer, we have to understand His meter.

brainout | 17 Apr 2016, 00:43

Hi, Ron, sorry we seem so confusing! My answer is like Anonynomenon's. Think of it as a Church Mortality Table. The OT provided those for Israel, but Israel was promised set time. Church is not. But still, a mortality table is useful to know likelihoods, for times are bad when the likelihoods rise. As in a regular insurance actuarial table, there are certain 'ages' when you're more likely to get sick or die, though there's no guarantee you WILL in that year.

God is Omniscient, and knows all the WHAT IFs. WHAT IF the Rapture DOESN'T happen? He foreknows what history will look like, but that doesn't mean we'll actually BE there. So say the Rapture happens tonight. The history would still be the same, but it would be playing during Trib or Mill.

For the Rapture is based on FIXED BODIES, John 17:20ff. However many CHURCH-TIME bodies Christ paid for on the Cross, was up to Father's discretion. We don't know and can't know WHO they are. So can't predict the Rapture. When Christ spoke Matt24, He'd not yet GONE to the Cross, and it was up to Father THEN how many souls' sins would be paid for, and Son would be accepting each time. So post-Cross He knows (see the clever wording in Acts 1:7, where He no longer says He doesn't know), but pre? And we still don't know.

Now think: does SATAN know? Presume he does. The other reason for the Rapture is a negative one, just like the Temple went down: due to apostasy. So Satan's angling to make believers so apostate we have to be recalled. Then he'd win in his gambit against God, who Foreknows it won't happen, but it CAN.

So the 'end game' is to learn what Jesus meant, so to be better informed Scripturally. Since all the NT plays on Matt24-25, and since we can prove the meter which creates that timeline (which Moses started, back in Genesis 1, so the meters are doctrinal and well defined) -- it seems kinda important to do this admittedly arcane syllable counting. It wasn't arcane to the audience who got it: they memorized by syllable counts already.

No scholar knows about this in Bible yet, but it's funny how long known and documented, is the ISSUE of syllable counting to develop meter, in classical Greek. Problem is, Bible meter doesn't require long or short syllables, stress, doesn't create spondees or dactyls, etc. One consonant sound and one vowel sound whether Hebrew or Greek, is a syllable.

Does this help?

Anonynomenon | 17 Apr 2016, 01:13

@ Brainout

I found a counting error at the end of Matt 24:28. You have that ending at 850 syllables, but I found that to be the 840th syllable. Everything after that seems to be off by 10, and it throws the 1050 off. I'm working on fixing it now.

brainout | 17 Apr 2016, 01:53

THANK you! You don't have to fix it, that affects all the numbers after. You keep on doing it your way...

Anonynomenon | 17 Apr 2016, 02:15

I'm fixing it my way. So far I'm getting very good results.

Its looking like δύο is supposed to be one syllable.

brainout | 17 Apr 2016, 04:10

Okay, I was just wondering about that. So then mia also one syllable?

Going back to square one, here.

Anonynomenon | 17 Apr 2016, 04:40

I would not elide mia or dia. It doesn't sound right to me. Duo is different, because as an off-shoot of the Canaanite language, the Upsilon, Omicron, and Omega all originate from the Paleo-Hebrew uou (modern vav). If you pronounce the Delta, Koine style (which is the same as Hebrew style 'lo dagesh'), then dou is really dthwo. Therefore one syllable. The fricative form of the Delta/Dalet allows for smooth elision, in my own opinion.

If the elision is not smooth, then I don't like using it. Kurios does not sound smooth to me. Resh has no fricative form therefore it has a stopping effect that makes the 'I' stand separate.

ἀφίεται seems ok to me, because the ph sound is the fricative form of Pey in Hebrew (lo dagesh). Do you see what I mean?

Also, Im seriously considering not eliding δὲ εἴπῃ in Matt 24:48. Seems like it would sound like δὲ ἴπῃ. The εἴ seems longer than the ῃ. In fact, I think I might leave all of Matt 24:44-51 completely unelided. In verse 49, the Theta in μεθυόντων, in seems to thick to work the same way as δύο.

Ill let you know what I get.

brainout | 17 Apr 2016, 04:52

Well, I edited my post after you made yours. I'm gonna look at the whole thing de novo.

AHA I was correcting the 10 too low in the first page at verse 12, but skipped to 28 to add it back and make sure my 1082 was still preserved, forgot to edit the other totals in between! So the 1082 is still right. Whew what a relief!

Will redo and will attach the revision, later.

You know, I wouldn't ask God where the error was until just now. Won't wait so long next time!

As for ellision with prepositions, the actual ellision is AGAINST the preposition, not against the next word. So de-eipen becomes d'eipen in pronunciation. It's not like krasis.

Not sure I agree on the fricatives, but I see your point.

Anonynomenon | 17 Apr 2016, 07:02

Lol, well I'm glad to hear that you found the error. Ive started over again. Im getting a pretty consistent pattern two with stricter elision. I don't thing the counts differ much from yours. We will have to compare them when I'm done.

brainout | 17 Apr 2016, 07:06

Okay, good. Looking forward to it. Thank you again for noticing v.28, since I forgot to fix 13-17!

Anonynomenon | 18 Apr 2016, 05:27

Hey, I finally got Matt 24 parsed to a point that I'm (for now) satisfied. Once I get Matt 25 parsed by the same elision rules that I used to parse Matt 24, I'll post it.

I chose not to elide anything at all for Matt 24:47-51. Based on the rest of the meter, κύριος can not be considered 3 syllables, so δὲ εἴπῃ in verse 48 would be the only good candidate for elision. However, in this case, I do not think it would be grammatically correct since the beginning of the clause is ἐὰν δὲ εἴπῃ. I believe the presence of ἐὰν calls for a grammatical pause between δὲ and εἴπῃ. If you look at all of the occurrences of δὲ in Matt 24's interlinear translation, verse 48 is the only one placing a comma after δὲ. I realize that the original text did not use commas, but I think the grammatical pause does belong there, else it will sound like a run-on sentence.

Matt 24:48 Interlinear.

We have to take both phonetics and grammar into account when eliding. The text has to make sense when its read out loud.

brainout | 18 Apr 2016, 05:57

Well, it's not right for a comma to be after ean de. We don't even pause in English. For example, 'even if it were true' would be a clause at 'true', not at 'if'. The way they spoke de was to append it to the prior word, since it's post-positive. So the 'd' sound's vowel gets swallowed if the next word has the same vowel. Again, the way ellision works with articles and prepositions, is to omit the ending vowel of that article or preposition, so the clarity of the noun or verb following, stays intact.

There's also no verb or noun in Greek with deipen sound. Closest is the verb to DINE, deipnew. Can't be confused with the common legw.

BTW, I edited my post here re the anaphora, viewtopic.php?f=16&t=512&p=2243#p2243 . It balances, but I still don't know why.

Anonynomenon | 18 Apr 2016, 06:10

I don't know, I cant get verse 47-51 to work with any combination of elisions, without screwing up the rest of the chapter. Hopefully, chapter 25 will reveal more.

brainout | 18 Apr 2016, 06:39

Well, look at the dipthongs. I only elided d'eipen and ekei-estai. Am treating kurios as two syllables, esthiei as two syllables (es-thye), and methuonton as three syllables (meth-won-ton). See if that helps?

I'm almost 100% certain that Chap24 should be 1673 syllables, because Luke uses the same style.

It's Years-to-Mill when writing/talking, plus even division of 1050 and 490 or 560 (here 1050+560), to reconcile the 'old' timeline pre-Church with the new 1050 that starts at Crucifixion. So Luke did 35+1050, so at the end it's 1085, since Church started the same year as Crucifixion, but by the time Luke writes, it's 28 years later, writing 63 years (heh) AFTER Zecharias got the announcement (hahaha, dateline meter in Luke 1 when story starts with Zech).

Anonynomenon | 18 Apr 2016, 07:04

Ive got 1673 syllables, too, but if I count kurios as two syllables, then I lose a ton of subsevening and I lose the 455=105. It doesn't sound right to me, and it messes the whole meter up as well.

Unless ἐάν is really one syllable, that might change things. Gotta sleep now. I'll see what changes can be made tomorrow.

Edit:

The syllables counts between my anaphoretical clauses are divisible by 7, but not 3. Is that still a good sign.

ok. going to bed for real this time.

brainout | 18 Apr 2016, 09:33

EDIT: redid the doc, attached here as pdf. Lemme know if you want it in Word format.

Well, don't do kurios at two syllables if it sounds wrong to you. I don't see how you can count ean at one syllable, as the ea construction is long used as two syllables, i.e., the play Medea. The ae is one syllable, but not ea.

I finally FOUND the overlap, and the whole thing now sevens. Search on 'YIKES!' in this page, to go straight to it. Overlap is actually a mirror: 1540 (1570 AD, beginning of the second mid-1050 voting period and English Reformtion, that very year Elizabeth I was excommunicated). So the sevening is from 63 (93 AD end year when the Mill was supposed to start) to 1540, and from 1540 to 3175, w/overlap from 1110 (1140AD) to 1540 (1570 AD). The sevening only works WITH the overlap: because (ding ding ding) the overlap period itself does NOT seven, being 430 years long (sound familiar?), heh.

Same mechanism as in the epainon counting here. So now I know where Paul derived that style! Whew! As you'll see, the count started AFTER the first epainon CLAUSE ended, and stopped with the last epainon clause, with only the distances between clauses, used. The count for the second epainon clause was from the beginning of the second clause to the end of the third, creating an overlap.

AS HERE IN MATTHEW!!

DANG, I owe you so much. You've been bugging me about Matt24-25 for a long time, and I kept on kicking and screaming, not to look at it. YOU WERE RIGHT. It's my smoking gun for Paul's style. Until now, I was beginning to think I was hallucinating the results I got in Ephesians, since I couldn't find the style elsewhere. WHEW AND THANK YOU!!!

Anonynomenon | 18 Apr 2016, 17:53

Sorry, I forgot to tell you the other day, but in Matt 24:34, you elided hard breathing, genea haute.

And you forgot makaryos in verse 46, if you're going for the 2 syllable kuryos. You can get more subsevening with a 3 syllable kurios.

Sorry, I don't mean to be so critical. This chapter is just driving me nuts.

brainout | 18 Apr 2016, 20:18

Okay, well I'm sticking with genea haute because it's the a in genea which gets swallowed. Ellision occurs only on the ending vowel of the first word, never the second.

As for makarios, lemme think about that. See, the problem is that accent is normally on the penultimate syllable, and in the original mss there were no accent marks (no diacritics at all). Only in the much later manuscripts, and by then pronunciation changed a lot. So I have to test rhythm, since makar, not merely one syllable, precedes.

The other issue is that autou is a significant variant added in the Byzantine family for verse 45. So that would add two syllables. In which case, hoti in verse 47 belongs in the next clause not part of amen legw humin. If I have to add a syllable prior, I'd probably de-couple ho ouranos in verse 35, to offset a claim that makarios is only 3 syllables.

For now I'm sure that the amen legw humin clause terminates at 1540 (=1570AD), just not sure which way it does. JUST IN TIME WHEN THE 3RD 490 CLOSES, AND THE HISTORICAL 70-YEAR VOTING PERIOD BEGINS...

It's just too rich: the very year the Pope who THINKS he speaks for God excommunicates the only ruler in the West who actually CARES about Bible being free for the people, GOD speaks instead to protect her from all comers, and it's a miracle England and OUR Bible survived. Absent this, we'd have no English Bible, and the KJVO people would have no King James rewrite, either. America would have no common Bible in English. Remember, Roanoke was only 9 years after the KJV. If the common people couldn't have a Bible, then would America have existed? Interesting question to ponder.

For as mistranslated as the KJV is, it was almost instantly (by law, okay) COMMONLY TAUGHT. That was a new thing, and only England was really doing it. For had there been no Elizabeth I with her Walsingham to stop the Catholics, there'd have been no King James to commission a Bible for all England to READ (not just the Book of Common Prayer, the BIBLE).

Remember how the Colonel first taught us from the KJV versus the mss -- until he got too tired of all the translation errors and switched to NASB?

And here's another irony for you: the Catholic plotters in light of the excommunication planned (like in the movie) to murder Elizabeth, with the Duke of Norfolk planning afterwards to marry one of my ancestors (through adoption, at least, per my adopted family) -- Mary, Queen of Scots. Ironic, huh. If my adopted mother is watching occasionally from heaven (for if angels watch us, why not the humans), I bet she's laughing her head off. How many times she showed me that paper claiming she was descended from Queen Mary!

Oh and by the way -- that 1110 start equals 1140 AD, and stands for the Cistercians, notably Clairaux, which is kinda the grand-daddy of all modern monasteries. VERY popular. They were known for making BIBLES as well as manual labor, and in 1145 one of their number became POPE. See the topical tie? Begins with BIBLES, ends with BIBLE, starts with a POPE, ends with one. Can't be coincidental. But the syllables in between 1110 and 1540, might be off, and have to be reassigned, ellision versus dipthong, or variants which we're not using but should, etc.

As usual, you bring up excellent points. And yeah, it's mind-wracking, all because our ancestors didn't pass on teaching the meter to their kids, or we'd be doing this as easily as multiplication tables or ABC's.

Anonynomenon | 18 Apr 2016, 23:40

Are you saying that αὐτοῦ in Matt 24:45 doesn't belong there?

brainout | 18 Apr 2016, 23:56

No, not saying that. The CNTTS apparatus shows a TON of later mss of the Byzantine family which ADD 'autou' after 'kurios'. Some are Aland Category II, so it might be valid. This is one of the many benefits of the meter, to help sleuth out which variants might really be part of the Autograph.

So in the final analysis, still the amen legw humin phrase ends at 1540, just not sure which adjustments will actually be needed.

Anonynomenon | 19 Apr 2016, 00:06

I don't know that hoti should be part of the anaphorical clauses, I mean, doesn't the anaphora have to be uniform?

Anonynomenon | 19 Apr 2016, 01:47

Matt 25:3 αἱ γὰρ μωραὶ λαβοῦσαι τὰς λαμπάδας αὐτῶν οὐκ ἔλαβον μεθ' ἑαυτῶν ἔλαιον.

What do you think about the highlighted word above? Nestle GNT 1904 does not include it, but the rest of the biblehub manuscripts do. Do you believe it belongs their? Why or why not?

brainout | 19 Apr 2016, 02:38

Looks like autwn should be included, though there is a lot of variation; many manuscripts don't even have the verse. Some substitute heautwn but that looks like dittography, since the same word is later in the verse.

Grammatically, it's needed. That to me is the strongest argument for autwn. The whole point of the passage is YOUR lamp, YOUR oil, not just anyone's.

Anonynomenon | 19 Apr 2016, 03:02

That's good, because I really need it to be there. I'm about a third of the way through Matt 25. Hopefully I can have it finished tomorrow.

Anonynomenon | 20 Apr 2016, 02:26

Brainout,

You might have a second anaphora going on there!!! It looks like your parsing is probably right, though I'm still uncomfortable with some of the elisions, but that's my problem.

Matt 24:2 ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν ends at syllable 47

Matt 25:12 ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν ends at syllable 2000

The clause is 7 syllables long, so there are 1993 syllables between the end of the first anaphoretical clause and the beginning of the second. so 1993-47=1946, which is 7x278

What does it mean???????

brainout | 20 Apr 2016, 02:50

Funny you posted this. I've been waiting for you to come back. Am looking at the VERY SAME IDEA, while waiting for my clothes to dry! And I wish I knew what it meant!

Don't just accept my ellisions. Do what your heart tells you after talking to God. I'm not sure what I'm doing is right, but rather it's a WHAT IF. For example, in all my other metering I've almost always treated kurios as three syllables. But MATTHEW might not be doing that.

Somewhere between Matt 25:24 and :40 I think my assumptions are wrong, for I should get 2590 even, but get 2594. But at the same time, what about the amen legw humin that still seems so right at 2960-2966? Maybe it's not right.

My 2000 ends at the same place as yours, so far. But when you play with the distances between the amen clauses, some of them seven or three, where I didn't expect them to.

Here's what I do know: there must be a sevening, and the OVERLAPPING one(s) are stressed periods of history. Then when you look up that period, there's something intensely Biblical about it, esp. on a theme of freeing up Bible for the common man to get and read. That's what Paul's epainon meant, and with our hindsight into the history, we should find it first here in Matt24-25, which I'm now convinced is the 'source' for Paul's style of using anaphora.

But maybe I'm completely off. Ask God, see what insight He gives you, since He surely hired you to do this Matt24-25 metering, for which I'm eternally grateful. Will have to hold a lot of banquets for you in heaven, or something else of major celebration!

Anonynomenon | 20 Apr 2016, 03:07

Ok. What if the ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν in Matt 24:47 really ends at syllable 1532, not 1540 like you initially thought?

We both seem to agree that the ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν of Matt 25:12 ends at 2006.

So 2000-1532=468 or 156x3.

So instead of Matt 24:47 benchmarking Elizabeth I's excommunication in 1570 AD, it really might be benchmarking the Edict of Saint-Germain in 1562 AD; providing limited tolerance to the Protestant Huguenots in the Roman Catholic realm. Its a back-handed edict of toleration. Didn't RBT talk about the Huguenots as the pivot to a client nation?

An edict is supposed to be an authoritative decree, like saying ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν.

Anyways, that's the only way I can get the anaphorical clause of Matt 24:47 to work without including hoti.

BTW, I think God hired the both of us for this job, because there is no way I could have made it this far without your help. Thank you so much.

brainout | 20 Apr 2016, 03:16

Well, the argument more in favor of 1540 is that it begins the historical voting period, 1570-1640 AD being the exact same period as the English Reformation. That period wouldn't have happened without Elizabeth being excommunicated. However, yeah she hired Walsingham to first free the Huguenots back in 1570.

That doesn't preclude the importance of 1562. Its period is smack dab in the amen legw humin text. But you keep going with your hypothesis 'your' way, see if it tests out in the other ways.

As for hoti, I don't know it should be on the same line. The conjunction works like our English "that:" (with colon) to introduce a list or quotation, in which case it belongs to the prior clause (and a new paragraph or clause begins with the first list item); or, it can be like our English 'that' as the beginning of a clause. My natural instinct is to put hoti on the next clause, but I'm not sure the Greek requires that.

BTW: my blood ancestors were allegedly Huguenots. Ironic, huh.

I really don't know what the final results should be, but surely these distances with the phrase are intended and important.

Anonynomenon | 20 Apr 2016, 03:56

Ok. I tested both 1570 AD and 1562 AD as amein bench marks. I didn't find much with 1570 AD, but if you add 1562 AD +59 syllables/years (vs 49 καὶ ἄρξηται τύπτειν τοὺς συνδούλους αὐτοῦ), we get 1621 AD, which is when Louis XIII tried to eradicate the Huguenots in the First Huguenot Rebellion. So king Loui XIII began beating his syndoulous.

The whole thing depends on whether or not hoti belongs in the anaphorical clause. That will determine which elision and parsing technique is correct.

I didn't get a chance to do any metering today. I just "accidentally" stumbled on the ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν anaphora, so I think God wanted me to see that before I continued metering. Of course, there are no accidents with God, lol.

Anonynomenon | 20 Apr 2016, 04:31

On GeneYrs, you flagged 70 AD as a "Revised-Scheduled Trib beginning". Was this a possible Rapture window? Its interesting that the first anaphorical ho d'apokritheis eipen is 7 syllables after the Temple destruction.

brainout | 20 Apr 2016, 05:09

Yeah, it was.

I also just did a worksheet on some threes and sevens which you can modify for different syllable counts, attached here. It doesn't test all the possible combos, but it helps get a sense of the flow. The even/3 or /7 numbers are highlighted in yellow. Feel free to revise it as you see fit. I just got tired of recalculating the numbers by hand. The worksheet is Excel 2002, for most compatibility. (I usually still use Lotus DOS 1-2-3, but it can read Excel 2002, which is native, here. I don't know the conditional formatting formula to blank out results with remainders, mea maxima culpa.)

Anonynomenon | 20 Apr 2016, 05:19

Wow, thanks.

What is the difference between the εἴ diphthong and ῃ? I doubt they're purely identical.

brainout | 20 Apr 2016, 06:23

Well, re-download the xls (which I just now replaced), because I just created some Custom Views (an option in View of Excel 2000-2003) which hide the Threes or the Sevens so you can only see one set. There's also an 'AllShow' Custom view which resets the worksheet so all columns show.

Most of the threes and sevens SEEM to occur between 1110 and 1540, still. But your comments about the 1118 and 1532 ended up being validated, too. As a kind of top of a bell curve?

As for ei being a dipthong, it's treated as one vowel sound. Originally all vowels were short. They used to be pronounced separately. But over time the two vowels together elongate into what we now call 'long' vowels. They are really dipthongs.

Anonynomenon | 21 Apr 2016, 05:52

Hey, still metering, but I just wanted to alert you to another possible anaphora in Matt 24:47 and Matt25:30.

ἐκεῖ ἔσται ὁ κλαυθμὸς καὶ ὁ βρυγμὸς τῶν ὀδόντων

I don't have numbers to play with right now, but I'm working on it.

brainout | 21 Apr 2016, 06:38

Yeah, that would qualify as an anaphora. Simple de apokritheis doesn't, because it's not a refrain. Anaphora always has the quality of a refrain.

Which, of course, takes us back to hupostasis' thread on outer darkness, here http://brainout.net/frankforum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=342#p683. The anaphora will help us interpret it.

Anonynomenon | 21 Apr 2016, 07:00

You don't think ho d'apokritheis eipen is anaphorical? I think it definitely is.

Or do you mean just the short phrase d'apokritheis?

What do you mean by refrain???

brainout | 21 Apr 2016, 07:26

When a book frequently has dialogue, to say 'he said that' is not a refrain. Think of a song or repeated slogan.

The 'Hickory' phrase is a refrain. In really good literature, you PACE a key sentence or refrain at intervals to serve as a paragraph, roping off what is in between. Poets do it a lot, but so too in speeches. Such as, the one we have here. Each repetition of the phrase links to its prior use and elucidates or applies what went BEFORE the current use, to make a new application or meaning out of it.

Key phrases repeated in Bible we already know have meaning, but we forget their walling-off function when they are placed close together. I too forgot that 'weeping and gnashing' is a phrase repeated here in these two chapters, so they qualify as an anaphora, if three times.

Here, we don't have it three times, but it's a refrain in Matthew (he uses it 6 times, Luke only uses it in Luke 13:28, NOT in Luke 21; the other gospels don't use it at all). So maybe it's important to measure the syllable distance.

Anonynomenon | 23 Apr 2016, 06:27

I noticed that in your reparsing of Matt 25, you didn't elide ἐξέρχεσθε εἰς (in verse 6), or any of the other similar sounding diphthongs. Could you explain why?

Also, you mentioned 28 indicated spiritual stagnation. Is that because its 7 short of 35? What does 91 indicate as far as spiritual growth?

brainout | 23 Apr 2016, 16:34

It doesn't elide, because there's a pause between the verb and prep; to concatenate them is not a dipthong but ellision; here, eis is a purpose clause, separate from the command to 'come out'. It's repeated, the erchomai eis construction, like in Matt 25:21 and :23; but those aren't purpose clauses; they are clauses, though. While I couldn't find any eis endings to erchomai verb forms, it's often a participial ending (as in apochritheis, Matt 25:12), so I'm thinking eis should not there be elided.

I don't recall saying 28 meant spiritual stagnation. If I did say that, I was wrong. It means growth under pressure (21+7) everywhere, so far as I can tell.

Subsevens are all GROUP numbers, even with the datelines; individuals maturing, won't show directly (but you know individual maturation happens, because a 490 or 1000 cannot complete, else). So a 49 dateline in Matt24 means not only 49 years from x (when Herod started to rebuild 2nd Temple), but also that the believers were so negative it was Diaspora quality (ties in neatly with what He'll say about the Temple going down).

Take the example of Matt 25:10, which in the meter (I've redone it, but there it's the same) ends at 1946 (1976, when the Colonel was at the height of his teaching); the difference between the last sevening is 273 (prior sevening was end Matt 24, 1673). So during that 91x3 years, since it's a 91x3, seems like there was good individual but not group, growth.

Also, the first way you did the Matt24/25 parsing by logical paragraph might still be an ADDITIONAL valid way to parse the text. But for the timeline, we have to do cumulative totals by clause.

But if you disagree, do what you think best. We're all kinda still winging it here, learning from the text where these ellisions/dipthongs are, what the numbers mean. We've no 'scholarly' info to go on. The scholars don't know of this meter, they keep on looking for poetic meter (for 300 years, since Robert Lowth, it's a raging debate among scholars every year, where Bible meter exists).

Anonynomenon | 23 Apr 2016, 16:58

I agree with you on not eliding eis. I just didn't know how to justify it. Every time I elide an ei sound, I get all sorts of problems in the meter. But it can still be parsed, just differently.

brainout | 23 Apr 2016, 21:17

Ellisions are mostly done with articles and at the end of prepositions. My basic rule of thumb is that if I can't pronounce the sound without seeming drunk, then it must be elided. :)

Anonynomenon | 24 Apr 2016, 02:21

Ok. I finally finished the entire meter. I have to color code everything to keep my mind organized, but I uploaded it in a word doc so you can edit it and change the coloring to make it easier to read if needed.

You might disagree with some of the elisions, but this is the only way I could get the anaphorical clauses to line up and maintain consistent sevening.

let me know what you think.

I also attached a pdf version just in case you need that.

brainout | 24 Apr 2016, 02:43

Okay, thanks. The shades are way too dark for me to read the text in pdf. So I'll download and convert the docx (which you can only do in XP, lol) and then change the colors so I can read the text. So give me a bit of time to do that. Thank you !

BTW, I don't use Word 2007. Didn't know they removed your ability to use Borders and Shading, but now you are only stuck with 'Highlight', which is almost always too strong.

Anonynomenon | 24 Apr 2016, 02:58

yeah. Sorry about that. I tried to use the most legible colors, but I have windows 8, and it really sucks. It was the only alternative to windows 10 aka the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth. Ill have to see if I can edit the highlite colors.

brainout | 24 Apr 2016, 03:02

Don't worry, I've got it in Word 2003 now. BTW, Word 2003 Professional (retail, don't get any other kind) costs $60, and works just fine in Win8. But I don't know if fileconverters.exe (which enables reading later versions of Windows) will work in Win8. It won't work in Win7, but will work in XP.

Most law firms and accounting firms still use Word 2003.

Okay, I got a problem with eliding de+autos, since de+a is not at all the same as de+au. When you say the latter you still pronounce the 'de' sound no matter what, so you can get your lips ready to round for the 'u'. But de+a easily becomes d'a.

But would you plug your own values for the anaphora starts and endings, into column A of the attached REVISED AmenAnaphora.xls worksheet, and see where it sevens and threes? That might justify your ellisions. The default you see there is my latest version of the parsing, I've not yet uploaded it, as now I need to complete a new "Notes" section.

The total must at least be 63+3150, or 3213. For Christ is reconciling pre-Church 1050's with the effect of the new 1050 beginning at His Death two months from when He speaks. Matt24-25 is like Genesis 49, His Dying Blessing (when the future is foretold). YOU figured that out, and I bucked you. You were right. So that's how I know the total must be 3213 or higher, since He's talking 64 years before the Mill begins, but it rounds to 63, if using the civil calendar (since Nisan is month 7).

Here's how to access the worksheet 'Custom Views' for Excel 2007: https://www.google.com/search?q=Excel+2007+custom+views

Here's how to access and use Borders and Shading (the shading is much better than highlight) in Word or Excel 2007: https://www.google.com/search?q=Word+Excel+2007+Borders+and+Shading

Sorry they changed it. I hate that ribbon, but some like it, so I'm not familiar with the other changes.

Anonynomenon | 24 Apr 2016, 05:39

Ok. I traded out δὲ αὐτοῦ in Matt 24:3a for ταῦτα ἔσται in verse 3c. Same principle as H'elohim in Psalm 90. But I'm not sure what to do about Matt 25:10a.

Ok. So this time I'm going to follow your parsing and try to make changes to get that amein lego humin separated from that hoti.

First, there are some problems that we need to resolve.

1. Does kurios work as two syllables in any other meter?
2. How can ἕως be counted as one syllable, when Ephesians counts Θεὸς as two syllables.
3. Then in Eph 1:7, you have ᾧ ἔχομεν, which is like trying to elide καὶ ἄρξηται in Matt 24:49. Doesn't the iota under the omega give it a hoi sound?

I just think there should be a sort of uniformity between the meters.

edit

I changed the δὲ αὐ to ἀγοράσαι ἦλθεν in Matt 25:10.

brainout | 24 Apr 2016, 06:39

Well, what happened to the threes and sevens originally? Maybe you don't need to adjust 25:10 if the threes and sevens work.

Anonynomenon | 24 Apr 2016, 06:51

I adjusted 25:10, but it was just a trade out within the same clause, so the count didn't change.

Could there be a 21 in ellipsis?

Because to go from the current 3192 syllables to 3213 is an additional 21 syllables. I don't know how that can be worked in the text with my elision assumptions. Either kurios is two syllables and your parsing is more correct, or kurios is three syllables and my parsing is more correct. However, with your parsing, we have the hotiproblem, which doesn't feel right.

Anyways, I need sleep. Parsing Matt 25 really burned me out today. Just see if an ellipsis is justifiable. So far there are no ellipses that I know of, which I think is a bit odd. Don't most meters have at least one?

Last edited by Anonynomenon on 24 Apr 2016, 07:03, edited 1 time in total.

brainout | 24 Apr 2016, 08:44

Yeah, now I agree that there are no infra-chapters' meters in ellipsis. The 63 at the end and beginning serves the equidistant purpose. Paul and Luke do the same thing. Here, the 63 is nested already, since under the pre-Church schedule, 63 years remained to the Mill, so the total to end 'even' must be a 1050 plus that same 63, which on the PRE-Church schedule, would not be an overhang. But on the post-Cross schedule, the new 1050 starts at His Death here, so the ending 63 'echoes' the dateline 63, just like Luke does in Luke 21.

So to justify an extra 21 ellipsis at the end, you need a 21 at the beginning. So what is 21 years before Christ talks, to balance? It would have to be well known and related to the text, to qualify as a kicker for the ellipsis at the end.

I don't know whose meters are more 'right', but like you I'm exhausted, and I've got legal document amendment deadlines on the 30th I must attend. Thanks to technology it will only take me a few days to do, but I can't work on this again, until May.

So: I uploaded the latest revisions to brainout.net. The doc, is Matt24-25ParsedR3.doc. Just replace 'doc' with 'pdf', if you'd rather the pdf.

BTW, now Adobe Reader cannot read watermarks in pdf files, but pretends it's a font embedding error. so the doc/pdf are both drafts, but I can't watermark them. Will see if I convert the doc to Word2003 (it's in Word2002 right now), whether that problem continues. But it's not watermarked as 'draft', though it is a draft.

Also AmenAnaphora.xls is uploaded, since it's a pain to scroll here to find where the uploads are. Lemme know if you want me to upload to brainout.net any of the versions you're working on, in case that makes it easier for you.

Anonynomenon | 24 Apr 2016, 20:23

Ok. I see what you mean about the Luke meter. However, looking at Luke 21, there are some elisions that I think should be changed, and some that you may have missed. The 63 is still there, but its solid. I don't see a 28+35.

Would you be able to upload a version of Luke 21 that I can alter? The pdf is read only. Take your time doing your legal documents first. No rush.

Also, if Luke 21 is still 1085 after an elision review, then Matt 24-25 would be 2100+7 years longer than Luke 21 (by my results).

1085+2107=3192 (my present results for Matt 24-25).

brainout | 25 Apr 2016, 01:03

Sure, here's the link to the doc: Luke21Meter.doc. It's the same file. Since Luke uses 28 and 35 and 63 in Luke 1 as datelines, I'm pretty confident of those values as the meter. But have at it.

Anonynomenon | 25 Apr 2016, 03:14

K. Thanks.

Going back to the 47 years post cross in GenYrs xls, how could the rapture have potentially occurred at the Temple fall, if Abraham's reimbursement of 54 years had not been fully paid? Did our Lord's early death abrogate the need for Abraham's reimbursement?

brainout | 25 Apr 2016, 13:54

Well 47+7=54. So in that what-if, the remaining TRIB time due Israel playing, 'pays back' the 54. So Christ dying seven years early needed to be reimbursed, too.

Alternately, 40 years Temple falls, then Trib, treats His Dying early as an offset to the 54.

Anonynomenon | 25 Apr 2016, 15:56

I don't understand.

If rapture had happened at Temple fall, then 40+7= Second Advent 10 years early and both Abraham and Israel get shorted.

If rapture happened 7 years after Temple fall, then 47+7= Second Advent 3.5 years early, and Abraham is paid back, but Israel is still shorted.

So either our Lord's early death cancelled the need for time reimbursement, or 40+7 and 47+7 could not have been plausible what-if's.

Do you see what I mean? It seems like the earliest possible what-if had to be 30AD+7+50=Rapture...basically the old schedule.

brainout | 25 Apr 2016, 17:33

No, the 3.5 early was to be on time relative to David. Christ dying successfully 10 years prior to the 2100 relative to Abraham's maturation, is never made up. So in that accounting, 47 becomes the leftover.

There are several accountings one can use, hence the Rapture couldn't be securely estimated even based on Abraham's credit. Just as you've been saying, POTENTIALITY and LIKELIHOOD are alone mapped.

Anonynomenon | 25 Apr 2016, 17:47

Ok. So because our Lord was born 3 years early (3.5) and died 7 years early, those early 10 years + 40 years of Temple standing made up for Abraham's 50 (followed by 3.5+3.5)? Am I understaning that correctly?

If I am understanding that correctly, then Jesus early birth meant that He had to die 7 years early to balance that reimbursement.

So then the 7 that historically played after Temple fall, wasn't that a sort of tribulation too? 3.5 years for Gentiles, 3.5 years for Jews?

brainout | 25 Apr 2016, 18:14

Well, actually the original balancing was that HE live the 40 years. That would have been 37AD, followed by 57 years, which is 3.5 + 3.5 +54. That scenario still would have put His dying relative to Abraham's 2046 YoW maturation, at:

• 4143, dying at the outer limit of time due to the inner limit of David's death year +1000;
• 2097 years after Abraham's maturation. Assuming it was on Passover, since Noah's Bday was then and he got his 490 then and Abraham matured in the last year of Noah's 490 (maybe on the last day, who knows), then mid-year per the civil calendar, hence 3.5 not 4 or 3. So the 2097 would be presumably exact.
• So EXACTLY 7 years would remain for Trib, and EXACTLY 50 years for Jubilee, but also accounted as 3.5 and 50 +3.5, owing to the lateness of starting Temple after David died.
• Temple was dedicated 1050 years after Jacob was born, so there are two sets of books being reconciled when Christ actually dies: I'm not sure of all the connections, yet.

Anonynomenon | 25 Apr 2016, 20:31

Ok, so if Temple had been dedicated on time and therefore Christ born on time, His scheduled death and return would have been 4146.5+50+3.5=4200. So the original Tribulation was only supposed to be 3.5 years. But that would be part of Abraham's so how could it be Jacob's Trouble?

However, because of early birth, Jesus would have been 40 at 4143, so then it becomes 53.5 for Abraham, but where does the last 3.5 years come from if all debts are payed???

It seems like His early birth required and early death. And Church was needed becaused of early birth and therefore because of early death.

So Daniel must have know something would happen since 70 Weeks where disclosed to him rather that 69.5 Weeks.

brainout | 26 Apr 2016, 02:41

1. Jacob's trouble was long taught by the Colonel as 3.5 years. I don't know where he got that. I get it, by realizing the GENTILES are owed 54 years (really 53.5), and so the extra 3.5 has to be due to Temple construction delay. Maybe there is another reason.
2. One can argue that the latter delay is offset by Messiah dying successfully, since He was born earlier to make up for the delay. (That of course implies that David's birthday or deathday was Pentecost, but I digress.) For the times are DEADLINES, so they can be paid early, and Messiah paid for ALL TIME (Hebrews 10, first half), so then the entire calculation of 'owing' can be argued as reset.
3. the 70 weeks to Daniel would still be the same, since Messiah had NOT yet come and paid.

Does this reply help?

Anonynomenon | 26 Apr 2016, 04:23

Yeah, I agree that Abraham's 53.5 years is the source of Jacob's Trouble.

But wasn't our Lord born 3.5 years early specifically to offset the Temple delay (which also ties to David's death)?

If that was the case, then the delayed Temple's debt has been paid, therefore it can't be the origin of the extra 3.5 years of Trib.

Lets say Jesus did die in 4143 versus the old Temple schedule of 4146.

_______

Ok, I'm just noticing this;

3096--David crowned in Hebron
+7
_______
3103--David rules all Israel
+33
3136--David retires
+7
3143--David dies
+3.5
3146.5--Temple construction begins
+10
3156.5--Temple dedicated

so Abraham's credit is reflected from David's rule over Israel through the Temple Dedication. 33+7+3.5+10=53.5

The 7 years in Hebron would then correspond to week 61-62.
Why 7 years in Hebron???

brainout | 26 Apr 2016, 04:46

7 years of civil war (really 7.5 at Hebron) so David wasn't crowned over ALL Israel until after that civil war ended, see 2Sam5 and keep reading.

Christ paying early paid off the old debt, but now there's a debt owed on HIM. So Trib repays for HIS time, which is why the earliest Rapture date could be ANYTHING, hence Philippians 3:10, ei pws the Lord can come while Paul even lived. But Paul in Ephesians picks what-ifs at first by reimbursing-time dates, like 66 reimburses the 33 then Trib 7 reimburses the extra 7 owed CHRIST.

See where this leads? There are several sets of books, but when Christ successfully paid, it all got vested in Him, Romans 10:4, Hebrews 2, etc. So you also can't tell when the Rapture is supposed to happen, cuz you don't know which set of books Father will select, and He might not select ANY.

So to account time for learning sake, Christ in Matt24-25 selects both the old books and the new books, with the 1050 starting at His death. Paul started a 490 at His Birth, which as we know wasn't actually true. But the point is, once He's successfully PAID (since Paul is writing post-Cross but Christ is speaking just pre-Cross) -- it's anyone's call. To teach that, Christ doesn't cast in stone the old rules, yet uses a rhetorical device everyone could understand, to show why Rapture cannot be predicted.

BTW, nothing I've said or come up with is necessarily right. It could be some other explanation. My goal is at present to prove DELIBERATENESS in the meter on an ACCOUNTING basis, and that the results so far are at least PLAUSIBLE. The actual answer will be better than whatever I've contended, if what I've condended is somewhere wrong. I'm not 'married' to any position.

Anonynomenon | 26 Apr 2016, 05:22

Thanks. I'll have to take a look at 2Sam5. I get what you're saying about the Rapture accounting being unknowable, I'm just trying to understand how 53.5 becomes 57 in the old schedules at this point. It doesn't add up for me yet. I see where Jacob's trouble comes from, but I don't see where the first half of Trib comes from.

Maybe it has something to do with Hebron, or some credit due between the transition from Saul to David, or maybe something between Temple construction and Temple dedication. I don't know.

brainout | 26 Apr 2016, 06:51

Okay, well there are several 3.5 year pieces, but the latest one I found was the delay in starting 1st Temple. For Christ to die ON TIME, would thus require He be born 3.5 years earlier, so to be born in the 1000th anniversary of David's being crowned King over all Israel (3103+1000, which the AmenAnaphora.xls plays on), AND having 40 years to live so to die by the 1000th anniversary of David's death in 3143.

Dying early, He died 980 years after the Temple was DEDICATED in 1Kings 9, so somehow that's an issue still. Dying on the original schedule would be 987, so plus 57 still means 1044th anniversary after Dedication, so 7 years short of 1050. Because, construction started 3.5 years late, and then after Temple was built it wasn't dedicated until 7th year AFTER the 3150 closed. So it's no coincidence that 3150+63+x (I'm thinking 7 right now=x), is used in Matt24-25 meter.

But going back to pre-Church, you first have the 53.5 from Abraham's maturing in 2046 from Adam's fall. So the extra 3.5 makes the 57. Is it the 3.5 of Temple late construction start, since 2 Sam 7 said its construction would start after David's death (not promising right away after, but promising not during his lifetime)? Seems so.

brainout | 30 Apr 2016, 19:35

Okay, I'm REALLY convinced that Christ or Matthew is ALSO using the anaphora to play a prophetical satire on how we'll all have a BC/AD problem due to the Varro error. Whenever I correct for it, I always come into the middle of legw. Even when I add hoti to the amen legw humin line.

I gotta play it out. If you're gonna pursue a musical theme, you have to know the ancient pattern, not our modern ones. I don't know their 'scale', for example. But maybe syncopation (definitely antiphony) are also used. I can't pursue that line, cuz I never much learned music.

Will do the TIMEINE adjustments for Varro as well, to see what happened. It was not a law in Christ's day, but was in Luke's, so is that why Luke made the 1082 into 1085? (Varro's error added 4 years to Rome's founding age. Christ was born end-year, so our BC/AD discrepancies always resolve to 3.)

But that will have to wait for tomorrow. I still got 10 docs to do (not hard, but tedious).

Anonynomenon | 01 May 2016, 02:06

Is it possible that the eporweto in Matt 24:1 belongs to the next clause?

Instead of:

Maybe it should be:

To me, it looks like either case I plausible, but rhythmically, the second option seems to work better.

brainout | 01 May 2016, 05:37

No, it's in the imperfect tense and is for Christ. The kai separates the clauses. Usually if the kind of thing you're looking for is done, it's done before the person's name or subject is mentioned. If I recall correctly!

Anonynomenon | 01 May 2016, 06:48

Thanks. I don't think Matthew's padding shows any particular rhythm, however, there might be rhythm in Jesus' speech, but I need to test it further. If there is a pattern, then its not one continuous time signature.

I do have a question though. What does the 'stand-alone' sevening represent?

Like syllables 194-201 καὶ πολλοὺς πλανήσουσιν

Or syllables 901-915 ἰδοὺ ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ ἐστίν, μὴ ἐξέλθητε

And syllables 1993-2000 ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν

Are these 'stand-alone' numbers supposed to balance to other accounting books?

I ask that, because the three examples I posted all seem to be balancing to 70-77AD. In fact, in the whole Matt 24-25 meter, these are the only three 'stand-alones' that I could find that balance to Temple fall. Like syllable 201-47=154 (22x7).

I haven't tested the other 'stand-alones' with other accountings yet. Have you seen something like this before?

BTW, I think your parsing of Matt 24-25 is correct. I can't find a better alternative.

brainout | 01 May 2016, 07:17

Well, I wonder about the standalones too, but I think their purpose is to warn of Tribulation-quality times in history, when it will be really bad.

Remember the start of the fig parable, Matt24:32? That first clause (ending with parabolen) is 14 syllables. So Luke, who also ended at the Matt24:31 total of 1036 syllables, 'mapped' his first clause to the SAME 14 (cuz 1036+14 is 1050, which is why I stopped thinking there was a time ellipsis).

So it's important to parse a TIMELINE by clause, to find the benchmarks.

And I'm not yet sure the parsing I did is right. One of the singular benefits of your parsing is that you did it contextually, thinking that the total must seven at the end (i.e., from Matt 24:1-31).

Fig Tree starts at v.32, should be its own sevening, but I'm no longer so sure. Christ is doing THREE reconciliations: pre-Church, post-Church, and (just figured out today, not yet finished) for the VARRO 4-year error (same as and source of, our BC/AD problems). So for one compilation the sevening works one way, and for another compilation it works a different way.

Point is, how you did it might be right, too. I just don't know more to say, yet. Ask God. He'll know.

Anonynomenon | 02 May 2016, 05:08

ok. I went through your parsing of Matt 24-25 and tried to find connections between the 'stand-alones'. It looks like they might be tracking alternate accounting books, though I haven't taken the time to try and find which ones. Perhaps they might link to Paul's what ifs.

Anyways, if the 'stand-alones' are indeed tracking other accounts, then Matt 24-25 might be read 7 different ways(including the obvious 490 starting from 30 AD).

Or maybe its just a coincidence. I don't know yet.

I'm uploading your parsing with the 'stand-alones' highlighted, underlined, boxed, parenthesized, circled and underlined in zig-zag. Its the best I could do with my program. Just match the boxed with the boxed, highlighted with the highlighted, circled with circled, etc. You'll find that they reflect alternate sevening from the standard meter.

Edit: I updated the 'stand-alone' notes.

Last edited by Anonynomenon on 03 May 2016, 06:54, edited 2 times in total.

brainout | 02 May 2016, 05:15

Who's Sarah? Abraham's wife? I'm not understanding what you're matching.

For example, first match is gold highlight syllable 201, to next occurrence at 915, then 2000.

915-201=714, a seven factor. 2000-915=1085, another seven factor.

Text benchmarked is (respectively): many deceived, heavens shaken, 'and answering He said'.

Sorry to be so dense. I'm not getting the import of what you mean. Care to elaborate?

I sorta get what you're saying, but not enough. It is true there are multiple subtimelines here.

I know of three: pre-Church, post-Church, Varro adjustments. But so far my brain keeps going out (and I DREAM about it too) and I can't get all the pieces together.

Here's what I mean:
The PRE-Church sched goes 63 (to Mill), then 1113 (amen leg split, playing on Varro, picked up prolly by Hebrews 10:5, the Lord SPEAKS when Born); could also go 60 (same split but in the first occurrence) to 1110. That's 1050, either way, but it BALANCES if 63 then 1113 split.

So the next split should be 490 syllables later, at 1603. But I got 1607. Moreover, there's an intervening amen legw humin I can't balance to. But THAT one is POST-Church alignment, so maybe that's why the extra four. I can't see how to elide four syllables between 1540 and 1607. So at the moment, I'm stuck. Maybe it's a game on the 4-year Varro thingy, though, so I'm right now playing with alternate connections.

Alternatively, if the 1607 corresponds to 1610 but a Varro game, it 'matches' the 1540 on the POST-Church schedule. But I have this awful feeling (which I dream about) that the 1610/1607 represents a CONVERGENCE of both reconciliations (balancing to both). At moments I think I see how.. and then my brain goes out.

If there are SEVEN not merely three, in a way that wouldn't surprise me. Like historical trends or bracketed periods of history to watch out for.

Anonynomenon | 02 May 2016, 05:50

What do you mean Sarah?

I just started matching the numbers up and posted it for you. I haven't actually gone through all the possibilities yet, so the pattern might be completely random. I was just making the observation and sharing it in the event that you or I find that it takes us some where.

Anonynomenon | 02 May 2016, 06:35

What I mean is, look at kurye anoixon humin. Those 7 syllables end at syllable 1993. Then 1993-47=1946 or 278x7. Then the following clause, ho d'apokritheis eipen is also 7 syllables taking us to 2000. So are these tracking the 70-77 AD Accounting?

Ok, then look at, horate mei throeisthe. Again its 7 syllables totaling at 225. This time, 225-64=161 or 23x7. So would this be balancing to the 94 AD Mill (30 AD+64)???

brainout | 02 May 2016, 06:43

There are comment markers everywhere in the pdf saying 'Sarah' and nothing else. I don't see how a 7 at 201 'matches up' to a 14 at 915. Nor to another 14 at 2000. Sorry to be so dense.

brainout | 02 May 2016, 06:46

My brain must be completely out. I have NO idea what you're saying below. If you want to rephrase, I would appreciate it. I'll try to sleep. Doc deadline got met, maybe it's a problem of shifting gears between legal documents and these numbers? Whatever it is, I have absolutely no idea what you mean below. Mea maxima culpa!

When I look at the meter, 1993 means AD 1993+30. By itself, it means 1993 years after Christ dies, so 1050+943. So it's nowhere close to 70 AD. Now, if you're measuring 1050's from 70 AD, why do that? But if so, it's 1953 years after 70 AD, and would be 1946 years after 77 AD, but why benchmark 1050's or anything else after those years? I'm not getting it.

Anonynomenon | 02 May 2016, 06:53

Its ok. I sent you a personal message about Sarah. Just ignore Sarah, it was a mistake.

201-47=154 or 22x7

915-47=868 or 124x7

2000-47=1953 or 279x7

Why 47? Because Temple fell 40 years after Christ died (earliest possible Rapture). Then 7 years later would have been earliest possible Mil.

My thinking is that these 'stand alones' could be tracking from 77 AD. Does that make sense?

brainout | 02 May 2016, 07:00

Okay, understood your message. So the Abraham reference doesn't belong there (go with me on this, k).

As for the standalones tracking from 77 AD, I don't see why. That is John's dateline meter for his Gospel. As for 77 being the earliest Rapture date, well it really wasn't. The earliest, coulda been the very next day after Christ died. Schedule is not promise. All bets were off when Israel rejected Christ. You'll hear the Colonel explain that often later in the Rev series.

But IF IF IF IF God wanted to 'balance the books' to the pre-Church schedule, then there are what-ifs you can play, but the whole point of this timeline and Paul's, is to regard the timeline for if the Rapture DOES NOT happen. For if it does, it won't matter when. You'd be GONE. But if no Rapture, then matters a bunch, for you still have to get through your spiritual life down here.

In short, since Israel was so used to counting time for 2000 years, the old habit now has a new and REVERSE use: if He DOESN'T come. You use the time rules to remember God buys time only through the believer, and so long as YOU are still down here, that rule is operating. So the upcoming character of the time is mapped, and it would be the same if the Rapture happened or did not -- but if it happened, then its relevance to YOU no longer applies, as you'd be gone. Better, then, to assume you're NOT gone.

Anonynomenon | 02 May 2016, 07:10

Well, the reason I say 70 AD as earliest, is because Jesus did foretell the Temple falling, so I assumed that had to happen 40 years after death. This is also assuming that He knew that He would die 7 years early.

The reason I started looking at 77 AD is because of the ho d'apokritheis eipen at syllables 47 and 2000.

I know that you said it's not a refrain or anaphora, but its placement still bugs me. That's what got me looking at the 'stand-alones'.

brainout | 02 May 2016, 07:24

Well, you might have discovered something important, but whatever it is, needs further 'something' to piece together a coherent line that converges. What that might be, I don't know. I'm still just trying to understand why 1607 not 1610, whether I need to reparse or whether a Varro adjustment 'pun' is being made. What you're thinking of might well be true, but it implies a much higher sophistication which requires spoking doctrines. What are they?

Anonynomenon | 02 May 2016, 07:39

What do you mean by "spoking"? I don't understand that.

I don't know, maybe I'm just seeing things that aren't there. This meter has really got me questioning a lot of things. I didn't expect things to turn out the way they did, and I'm trying to understand why its more elaborate than I expected.

I cant think anymore. I need to sleep it off.

I don't see how 1607 could be made 1610. Even in my parsing, your 1607 was my 1606. I would think that you have it right, so maybe there is a Varro pun.

brainout | 02 May 2016, 17:47

BTW, the 77 and 70 are important, but I'm not sure they stand for 70-77 AD, given that is our modern system of dating, not the ancient one. So maybe you're onto something else important..?

Spoking means to hook different sections together to show how doctrines interrelate. Example of a spoke: if you look at the amen legw humin contexts, you'll find that the middle one (1532-1540 in my latest meter you have) is nice, about happy is the slave whose master finds the slave faithful when the master comes. The others are all predictions of disaster or judgement (no stone on another, 1st, right at the door, 2nd, I don't know you, 4th, with 5 and 6 both judgments for eternity nice/nasty).

Now, if any of the other DIFFERENCES between OTHER clauses seven, or SEVEN TO the amen legw humin clauses above, then that's a spoking, if the WORDS tie as well. And that well may be.

The Varro thingy is maybe only played on the first time: in the middle of legw (splitting the word). For there are 1050 between first and 2nd in the anaphora (60-1113). I don't think that is a coincidence. So if I assume 1113 is the next 'baton' in the relay race, then 490 +1113 should be 1603, but it's not. I can't walk back 4 syllables, there's no amen legw humin to 'complete' the one started from 1110-1113. But there is a pointed 4-year OVERAGE.

By the same token, if I could find a way to add three syllables to 1607 (and I can, but it throws all the meter off), then 1540-1610 balances, and if I could find by the end of Chapter 24 another SUBTRACTION of the same 3 after 1607, then 1610-1673 also balances to that same 63 being used as the reconciler between pre- and post-Church.

I can find three elisions, but they seem forced. Worse, I can't play with the legw split between 1540 and 1110. So either I've parsed the meter wrongly (a distinct possibility), or there's some other wry point being made over this 3-4 year shortfall playing on Varro, that I'm not yet grasping.

Anonynomenon | 02 May 2016, 20:51

Well, I'm not playing with 70 or 77. I'm playing 40 and 47, which translates to 70-77AD.

Notice that in Matt 24, ho d'apokritheis eipen is followed by autois, yet in Matt 25, its only ho d'apokritheis eipen does not include autois.

It seems like aoutois isn't really necessary, so why is it there in tge first one? Maybe to indicate that 77AD (30AD +47) would be over-shot???

There seems to be another timeline tracking from the 57th syllable, which would be tracking from 87 AD.

I'm away from my computer at the moment, so I really cant elaborate any further right now.

brainout | 03 May 2016, 03:35

Greek economy of words. When a phrase is mentioned fully prior, then a repeat of it truncates the words. Here, I'd bet also the aim is to get the syllable counts to hit targets. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Still can't figure out why the deliberate 4 overage from 1607 forward. Unless it's not deliberate, which threatens the sevening.

Anonynomenon | 03 May 2016, 05:21

How does Varros error normally appear in the meter? Is it always a variance of 4 years, or 3? Or does it alternate?

brainout | 03 May 2016, 06:04

Well, that's just it, I don't know. Looks like Paul uses 3 years (the 56 dateline plays on the original 4106 but adjusts for Varro), Luke uses 4 yrs (kai eipen Maryam in Magnificat); but if they are writing BEFORE the Lord's birthday, it would be 4; if after, then 3. For the Roman new year starts the week after His Birthday.

But now I think that adjustment in Matt24 is only the first occurrence, since every meter after is an ADDITION to the start. So all the numbers would be, WITH the walk-back, adjusted. Else, 'official' to balance to Roman calendar, so 3-4 higher, depending on whether the meter count is before or after His Birthday (depends on the fiscal year used, all the meters are precise about fiscals and change them during their timelines, going all the way back to Moses).

But I'm still testing this. Problem is, I could have an undetected parsing error which looks like the Varro error being adjusted. Yikes.

Anonynomenon | 03 May 2016, 06:07

What is the significance of 57 versus 58 in the meter. I know that 57 is can be 50+7, but what about 58?

brainout | 03 May 2016, 06:12

58 means LATE, used by Daniel in Daniel 9:11-12, specifically for King Manasseh. I've seen it elsewhere too, but can't remember right now where. In NT.

Anonynomenon | 03 May 2016, 06:30

Does 58 have any relation to 100? And what is the significance of Luke 21 and Matt 24 tying at syllables 100? Maybe the stand-alone 21 of syllable 324 of Matt 24 is tracking that 100.

brainout | 03 May 2016, 06:45

I don't know why 100. Bugs me. Might stand for two 50's, the doctrinal meter for Pentecost, but why in THAT place, and what's the meaning? I don't know.

Anonynomenon | 03 May 2016, 07:03

Ok. I edited my comment a few posts back with an updated copy of the Matt 24-25 Anaphora with the stand-alones.

I just mathematically balanced the numbers to possible benchmarks in the text (like syllables: 40, 57, 100, 116, 283, and 335). I don't know if it means anything at all, but maybe it can somehow help you with the problem you're facing. If there is and spoking, this would probably be the place to start.

On the text convergence in syllable 100

Luke says, "when therefore will these things happen?"

Matt says, "As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives".

Doesn't the Mount of Olives split when Jesus returns? Maybe that's the connection.

Let me know if you find anything. I'm going to bed.

brainout | 03 May 2016, 22:36

Yeah, He returns and splits the Mount of Olives. Thank you for the brainstorming. I don't know if there's a connection either, but it's driving me crazy.

Anonynomenon | 04 May 2016, 03:28

In Matt 24:1, could the highlighted portion be considered a clause of its own?

Καὶ ἐξελθὼν ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἀπὸ τοῦ ἱεροῦ ἐπορεύετο, καὶ προσῆλθον οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ

I would say its a dependent clause, since it still has a subject and verb, right?

brainout | 04 May 2016, 03:46

Yeah, true.

Anonynomenon | 04 May 2016, 04:04

Ok, so that 14 syllable dependent clause brings verse 1 to its famed 40 syllables. That would make it the first 'stand-alone' in this meter, but it is in alignment with syllables 201, 915, and 2000.

syll 40--ἐπιδεῖξαι αὐτῷ τὰς οἰκοδομὰς τοῦ ἱεροῦ. (14) To point out to Him the buildings of the Temple

syll 201--καὶ πολλοὺς πλανήσουσιν (21) And many they will mislead

syll 915--καὶ αἱ δυνάμεις τῶν οὐρανῶν σαλευθήσονται. (14) And the powers of the heavens will be shaken

syll 2000--ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν (7) Moreover answering He said

These are just observations. I see a pattern forming, but I don't see meaning.

brainout | 04 May 2016, 04:25

Yeah, it was already 40 in the writeup. What do you mean 'in alignment'?

Anonynomenon | 04 May 2016, 04:26

I bet we could sqeeze more stand-alones out of this meter if we break the clauses into smaller ones. For example, syllables 1968 ends with καὶ ἐκλείσθη ἡ θύρα. That alone is 7 syllables, so how would the years 1991-1998 AD have a Tribulation quality to them?

1968-57=1911 or 273x7

Anonynomenon | 04 May 2016, 04:29

(text for this post was corrupted)

brainout | 04 May 2016, 04:36

Okay, but that will happen a lot. So what's the point of it?

Anonynomenon | 04 May 2016, 04:57

(text for this post was corrupted)

brainout | 04 May 2016, 05:12

Non-sevened numbers aren't datelines, unless in context with sevened numbers, in which case the sevened numbers are still the datelines, and the non-sevening is in their context. John does that, but building on his first letter (his Gospel), which had a dateline of 7 (years after Temple down). So his other letters did use non-sevened datelines to reference the one which was seven.

At least, that's the only one I've found so far using non-sevened datelines. Haven't found any in the OT. Closest is Daniel 9, but he did the same thing: first dateline was 49, and second was 73, but in the context of the 49, as 73 sevens, to tie back to Psalm 90.

Anonynomenon | 04 May 2016, 05:24

Well, isn't 40 in context of a sevened number, like 49, 63 and 84?

I mean look at 10 BC. Herod the Great's Temple expansion is inaugurated. In the 40 syllables, the Disciples are trying to brag to Jesus about Herod's work. Then, in 70 AD, then Temple and all of Herod's work is destroyed.

So maybe the 40 is a sort of padding, and there is an alternate meter here. I need to break the clauses down smaller to see if there is. This was your idea back in page 2 of this thread.

If so, then 57 might me another non-seven dateline, in context of 63. I haven't even looked at that yet, but there are a few stand-alones that tie to 57.

Ok, going to bed for real this time, I'll try to work on this tomorrow.

brainout | 04 May 2016, 05:28

Okay, well the only non-sevened meters I've seen were AFTER a first dateline which IS sevened. Sleep well.

RonEzboulder | 08 May 2016, 20:41

SORRY for not thanking you guys for your kind replies! My internet has been down for weeks, and since it got it back up, I've just been hunting around the website for more info. SOOOO MUCH to see! I get lost jumping on the "click here" 's! So when I see something interesting, I just read (or watch) that. (I actually forgot to check and see if either of you had replied to my question!)

I have Hebrew & Greek bibles, but where do I look, HERE, to ACTUALLY figure out your kind of "counting/metering/syllablfication"? I have "PCStudy Bible" software on my desktop with the interlinear Hebrew & Greek bible modules. It has a built-in "pronunciation integrated transliteration" which MIGHT help me. (The Tablet I'm using for the internet is running the Android OS, so your BibleWorks PROBABLY won't have a version for it.)

Again, thanks for your replies!

brainout | 09 May 2016, 00:17

Oh, the 'here' are clickable links. It's really something of a minefield now. Tell me specifically what you're looking for at the moment, and we'll give you the link to THAT each time. Would that help?

Anonynomenon | 09 May 2016, 03:07

@ Ron

When I first started, I tried using biblehub's interlinear transliteration for Zephaniah 1 in Hebrew, but its not the same. The best thing to do is to learn the Hebrew Alphabet and how to read the vowel point system under the words. Some letters in Hebrew have two forms (stopping quality, fricative quality, and sometimes a combination for consonant doubling as in the word Abaon). Learning when apply the appropriate consonantal form will help you understand the flow of the text.

These videos were particularly helpful in learning (what I believe) is the closest pronunciation of the Ancient Hebrew Alphabet:

and

Now, I had a LOT of trouble learning how to pronounce Ayin, so for that I turned to Arabic:

To learn the vowel points, I used https://hebrew4christians.com/

RonEzboulder | 09 May 2016, 19:32

@ Anonynomenon AND/OR brainout (@ brainout: I'll get back to you just as soon as I figure it out. Your asking an infant: "What do you want to eat?" How in the #!$^!*&... would I know? haha.)

. . .

Anonynomenon! OH MY GOD! I didn't want to BECOME Hebrew!

Though I REALLY thank you for the info about Hebrew (which I WILL make good use of), I've been of the opinion (for the last 35-40 years) that the ORIGINAL, continuos string ("scripta continua") of Hebrew letters, in the scripture, had NO VOWELS (vowel points). IF it was the ORIGINAL method GOD used (the meaning being in the consonants), then how could anyone ass-u-me that dividing it in the manner of the LATER added vowel points would be correct? I would think (as a non "Hebrew scholar") that the method would more likely be SOMETHING to the effect of separating the two, or three, letter root from any affixes. It's just that attempting to sound-out something that, they say ORIGINALLY had no vowels, simply doesn't register in MY brain. The adding of the vowel points for HUMAN verbal communication purposes and memorization DOES make sense though. But how would that relate to "TIME Orchestration"? Wouldn't the ORIGINAL text make more sense for THAT purpose? (SORRY, I'm just beginning to think this stuff through, as I write it, applying MY background. [See more in what follows.])

By the way . . .

Do either of you have an opinion on what the ORIGINAL purpose of the Hebrew "finals" was? I've always thought that they MIGHT have been intended to separate sentences (complete thoughts), or perhaps clauses, because of those "scripta continua" aspects. (I was never good at grammer, so please try to keep any answer SIMPLE). MY studies have always been in individual words and the semantics of WESTERN languages. (Where as Hebrew is an "Oriental" language, it's much harder for me.) I could say much more on this, but I know the internet "leaks", so I'll just stop it here.

[. . . Am I just wasting your time?]

brainout | 09 May 2016, 23:35

Okay, Ron -- well it's true that the original mss has no vowel points. The Massoretes added them. So the meter is governed by the consonants. One consonant one vowel (latter not being written), so the next consonant begins a new syllable. HOWEVER, some consonants form a single sound, much as our sh and ay (aleph yod in Hebrew, both considered consonants). But first you parse ASSuming no concatenations like that, and the resultant pattern will make it clear where you ASSume running the consonants together as one syllable instead of two.

See my for examples live on screen and downloadable docs.

Of course, if you're not already familiar with Hebrew/Greek letters, you'll have a tough time of this. Maybe just look at the math. Underlying math primer videos: . Then when going through Psalm 90, just ignore the Hebrew, use only the numbers, and a translation. Gradually, then, you can learn to read the letters and count the syllables, yourself.

Same for the Greek.

Anonynomenon | 10 May 2016, 03:28

@ Brainout

I'm reparsing Matt 24-25 into smaller clauses. I noticed in Matt 24:29, you counted ἥλιος as 3 syllables rather than two. Did you have a specific reason for that, or did you over look it.

I can kinda see why you did the same for δυνάμεως in Matt 24:30. Was that to accentuate the middle vowel?

Take a look at syllables 470-499. Something with the count is off there.

brainout | 10 May 2016, 04:14

Helios is a long-attested pronunciation. Similar to heli in Hebrew, which means suffering, so I don't see concatenation there. But have at it, if you think it should be lower.

as for dunamis becomeing dunamews, it's to prevent confusion.

As for what might be wrong between 470-499, I need more detail as to what you think might be wrong.

Anonynomenon | 10 May 2016, 04:23

15a. Ὅταν οὖν ἴδητε τὸ βδέλυγμα τῆς ἐρημώσεως
I get 15 syllables here, but I can see a possiblility for 16 or even 18. How are you counting Bdelugma? 3 or 4?

15b. τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Δανιὴλ τοῦ προφήτου ἑστὸς ἐν τόπῳ ἁγίῳ,

Here you have 20 syllables, but I get 18. It can be stretched to 19 syllable if you count Dan-i-eil, but I just read it Dan-yeil.

Anonynomenon | 10 May 2016, 04:30

Nevermind, my apologies, I see exactly what I did wrong.

Anyways, how are you counting βδέλυγμα and ἐρημώσεως???

brainout | 10 May 2016, 05:09

Bdelugma=3 syll. It's counted correctly at 15, but I forgot to adjust the '16' showing there, so 16 is a typo. The totals reflect 15.

brainout | 10 May 2016, 05:11

I'm using Dan-i-el because the Hebrew would separate them: Dan=Judge, i=My, el=God, so God is My Judge.

Anonynomenon | 10 May 2016, 05:20

K. thanks.

I've got another.

Matt 24:29 καὶ οἱ ἀστέρες πεσοῦνται ἀπὸ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ,
You have 15 syll, I count 13, maybe 14.

That might effect your Varro's problem.

Fixing verse 29 places 1050 syllables between the first 2 Amein lego humin statements. It is both divisible by 7 and 3.

First Amein is of course syll 63, second is syll 1113. So far, your elisions are working very well.

brainout | 10 May 2016, 05:35

Yep, that's a mistake. Should be 13 syllables. I don't have time to fix it now. Do you?

Verse 31 has an extra twn which is in 2 Vaticanus and Tregelles (who was looking at Vaticanus, his memory of it is his version). So that leaves one more to find, before 1036.

Anonynomenon | 10 May 2016, 05:40

Yeah, I'll fix it and hopefully have it posted sometime tomorrow. Im going through the entire thing one clause at a time. It looks there is a meter within a meter, and maybe even two. Im just getting the primary meter sorted out for now.

I edited my comment above too. Be sure to look at it.

brainout | 10 May 2016, 05:58

Yeah, I'm sure there is a meter within a meter. Several. Notably, you were able to seven the TEXT topics. What I hope we find, is the meter which still allows that to happen.

Anonynomenon | 10 May 2016, 06:02

Have you seen or documented any meters within meters before?

brainout | 10 May 2016, 06:24

Yeah, I've seen them often, most notably in Psalm 90, quick handwritten sheet .

The other blindingly-obvious one is . Note how the TEXT is balanced to the METER so it's real obvious which TEXT matches which METER as bookends each time.

, I didn't treat as dipthong (obviously, for pistis becomes pistews), but I didn't count properly in Matt 24:24 and 26. So I corrected the count, and now by the time you get to the corrected 13 in Matt24:29, it's okay again, still 901.

The sevening changed to 863-905 AD. for a chronology, but it's not what I'm looking for.

for a list of monasteries established in 9th century. I think that's what's stressed. There were a lot of Viking raids on them, too. So the combo of actually being able to SEE a Bible plus the raids pressure should have done much to aid spiritual growth. It's all pre-Cluny (which started in 910).

Uploaded the corrections on pages 1 and 2 as http://www.brainout.net/Matt24-25ParsedR4.doc and http://www.brainout.net/Matt24-25ParsedR4.pdf (if you don't).

Anonynomenon | 10 May 2016, 18:53

Ok, well those fixes put the Amein lego humin at syllable 1116, which eliminates the need to include hoti. I think that's a good thing. So 1110-57=1053 or 351x3. 👍

Anonynomenon | 10 May 2016, 19:02

I'm going to update this comment with more variants as I find them. Maybe you should wait till I'm don't so your not constantly scrambling to fix the meter. Its up to you.

Matt 24:38 καὶ πίνοντες, γαμοῦντες καὶ γαμίζοντες,
I count 12 syll. You have 13.

brainout | 10 May 2016, 20:42

Well, it is 13. Gamew, like pisteuw, has the 'e' in the stem, so gam-o-untes is how it should be pronounced.

But feel free to do what you think best. I'm just disclosing why 13. It's doctrinally poetic, too, since one of the memes is Church as 13th 'tribe'.

Anonynomenon | 10 May 2016, 21:57

OMG!!!!

I FINALLY, FINALLY, FINALLY, got Matt 24 to end in 1673 WITH your two syllable kuryos', AND while balancing the Anaphora without including hoti.

So I'm pretty confident that the rest of Matt 25 is correct given that there are no other mistakes. I still need to audit the rest, but I REALLY need a break.

brainout | 10 May 2016, 22:11

Good, get some rest! Gotta tell ya, I'm bushed!

PS: from the middle of the first legw in amen legw humin to the middle of the second legw in the second occurrence, is 1050. That's what I meant by the Varro adjustment, since Christ isn't SPEAKING until BORN, Heb 10:5.

Anonynomenon | 11 May 2016, 03:54

Ok, I got to the amein lego humin in Matt 25:12, and its not working. I'm thinking that maybe hoti is part of the last two. Do you think the two hoti's (total 4 syllables) could be there to because of Varro's error?

brainout | 11 May 2016, 06:36

Yeah, it's not working for me either. But it sevens and threes, see row 12 of AmenAnaphora.xls.

So maybe only needed adjustment for Varro once.

Or maybe the meter is still wrong. Drives me nuts.

Anonynomenon | 11 May 2016, 07:01

I don't think the meter is wrong. I mean, there are two duplicate statements of amein lego humin , whereas the rest of them don't use hoti.

Is hoti even grammatically necessary?

I kinda feel like it is meant to stand out for a reason.

I'll try to work on it some more tomorrow. If I can get all the hidden meters to work, then maybe we'll know if the parsing is correct.

brainout | 11 May 2016, 07:05

Yeah, I think hoti's supposed to stand out, also. What is uncertain: should it go on the next line, or be at the end? That's why I did the AmenAnaphora.xls (link above), to see if I could spot a metering. Seems there are some.

You remember how it's used grammatically, right? Sometimes it's SILENT, like we use quote marks, or like a bullet to introduce a point. Sometimes it's to be translated. I'm not sure which, in those verses. But it seems definitely to be counted.

brainout | 15 May 2016, 12:00

Hey, I think I found an error in Matt 25:45, my error. Looks like epoiesete is only four syllables. In Matt 25:44, diekonesamen should be 6 syllables. That, in keeping with the Hebraisms excepting dia, which in other parts of Matthew he doesn't elide out fully, but abbreviates with di (so considers dia=di+a).

If I do that, then 3149 becomes 3150, as expected, but the total at 3220 doesn't change. Hope this info helps you.

I'm still bugged by the 3 or 4 overs and unders at what should be the 490+70+490 benchmarks after 1540, but am working on it.

Anonynomenon | 15 May 2016, 19:17

Thanks, I was going to try and finish up matt 25 today.

Anonynomenon | 15 May 2016, 22:06

I'm only counting 25 syllables in Matt 25:22a. You have 26.

But, in Matt 25:24c, I count 21 syllables, where you have 20, so that fixes the count. I think you miscounted δσκόρπισας.

Matt 25:30b must match Matt 24:49b, so 14 syllables there.

Is there a reason why you didn't elide δὲ ἔλθῃ in Matt 25:31??

Anonynomenon | 16 May 2016, 01:17

K, I think I resolved the problems. In order for the anaphora to balance in the last three sections of matt 25, αἰώνιον must be counted as 4 syllables. That's the only way I could find without screwing up the total. Gonna take a short break, then I'll be finishing up.

Anonynomenon | 16 May 2016, 06:36

Ok. I got the meter to balance with the Anaphora, without changing the total. I was also able to find much more subsevening, and two other meters-within-meters or as I call them crypto-meters.

I'll post this as a word doc and pdf so you can alter it if you want.

brainout | 16 May 2016, 06:40

Yeah, aiwnion four. But Matt 25:22a is 26 syllables, am sticking to that. Duo as two syll each. I know we differ on that.

Re Matt 25:24 and 26, the elisions stand or fall together. I can't say oupw ouk without running them together, hence elision. Also, the double consonant in dieorpisas makes the ie run together no matter how you try to say 'i-a'.

I don't understand how you can get Matt 24:49b (which is what phrase?) to be 14 syllables, and why you think it must be the same as Matt 25:30.

Matt 25:31's de elthe combined (krasis). should say 27 syllables..

But you do it your way. That's the beauty of this. Okay, downloaded the pdf. I see you now show 3227, so you found 7 more syllables than I used. That will be interesting, as I was thinking over the weekend, whether I could reparse the clauses and hit the right benchmarks with more syllables, but couldn't see where to justify increasing them.

But I won't be able to do much for the next week or two, maybe.

Anonynomenon | 16 May 2016, 07:11

(text for this post was corrupted)

brainout | 16 May 2016, 07:56

I got 'em both at 14, maybe you have the wrong doc? Matt24-25ParsedR6.pdf or use .doc.

Peri dieskorpisas, parse it as you see fit. I'm not comfortable with my results, cuz seems to me they should benchmark on both timelines. But how to fix, I'm not sure.

In other words, I'm looking for the clauses to benchmark at 490, 560, 1050, 1540, 1610, 2100, 2590, 2660, 3150 plus 63 plus x. They're not. And then the second (pre-Church) benchmarks should each be 63 higher, ending at the same total. But they don't. Maybe that expectation is wrong, but it seems so close that the more likely problem is, I misparsed syllables.

Anonynomenon | 16 May 2016, 08:11

I might have an older doc. Anyways, I'll see what I can do with those benchmarks, but so far, most of your elisions work pretty well. I just made a few changes. I got ALOT of sub-sevening in the crypto-meters. Im not sure how significant that might be, but I think its an indicator that the parsing is pretty close.

brainout | 16 May 2016, 09:36

Crypto-meters? Sorry, my brain is out, I don't know what that means.

Anonynomenon | 16 May 2016, 14:44

Meters within the meter. Its shorter to say crypto-meter and sounds way cooler.

brainout | 16 May 2016, 16:51

Oh, okay

brainout | 18 May 2016, 07:55

Okay, your 3227 total fits with Luke's use of the 77 at the end. Think some of what you disagreed with, you're right. I found the extra 7 syllables so that all but the 1607 tally to 1050, 490, 560 benchmarks. The 1607 looks deliberate, as it's a nexus between the pre-Church and post-Church timelines (with play on Varro, so 1607 SEVEN balances to 1110, balances to 1113 sevening backwards to 63 and 1673, plus the 3 haha shortfall vs. 1610 is obvious).

But can't upload the changes for some days...

Anonynomenon | 18 May 2016, 16:04

Take your time. I'm still working on the other potential crypto-meters.

The most obvious crypto-meter starts after the 26th syllable, which I believe establishes the first 26 as a crypto-dateline. I think it ties to the temple somehow, I'll have to look at my notes.

But look at the crypto-meter, it benchmarks your 1610, and I think a few others.

I'll post more as I find it.

brainout | 19 May 2016, 02:21

Dateline is years-from and years to, or either. 26 years prior, is what? 26 years after, is what? 26 is not sevened. No non-sevened dateline is used except when a PRIOR seven has been tagged or referenced. At least, not in the NT and not in the OT chapters I've parsed so far.

Anonynomenon | 19 May 2016, 03:02

Ok, so maybe 40 is an alternate non-sevened dateline rather than 26, since the first sevening after 26 is a 14 syllable clause (26+14)

So 40 years before 30 AD:
Circa 10 BCE – The newly expanded Temple in Jerusalem was inaugurated.

From Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_the_Great#10s_BCE

40 years after 30 AD is obviously the destruction of the Temple.

I know that datelines are traditionally sevened for the MAIN meter, but what about the HIDDEN meter?

brainout | 19 May 2016, 03:21

The 40 is meaningful, but you go by FIRST dateline, and it MUST be sevened. 2nd can be non-sevened. Daniel did it that way, John does it that way, maybe Paul too (still need to test that). FIRST dateline is always sevened.

There can be as you call it, crypto-meters, but they wouldn't be for datelining when the book/chapter is written.

Anonynomenon | 19 May 2016, 03:41

I understand what you're saying, but what if 40 is a dateline for a SECONDARY meter? Not to establish when the chapter was written, but to indicate that this second meter is counting from 70 AD forward. I mean it functions just like a dateline: 40 years forward, 40 years back. I don't think we should rule out the possibility.

Anonynomenon | 16 Jun 2016, 15:59

Well, the key is the midnight cry....the central focus in the parable. Manifest Destiny.

What is that Manifest Destiny???

For Christ, it is maturing His royal family for the Millennium.

So for the Cosmic messiah, Manifest Destiny is universal utopianism and equality...like in the Network (movie).

So the foolish will be advertised as fools via their pseudo-millennial doctrine. Its already evident as all of our diplomatic measures fall apart.

Anonynomenon | 16 Jun 2016, 20:18

Ok. This is a big piece of the puzzle.

Virgins trimmed their wicks in 1882. Thats when "the Standard Oil Trust is secretly created in the United States to control multiple corporations set up by John D. Rockefeller and his associates." (per wikipedia).

So the virgins are waiting for their lord who has an agenda for the world. The virgins have oil, but are trimming the wicks to use the oil wisely. They do this to be prepared for their lord's return, and his agenda.

Standard oil was America's first major multinational corporations. It gave us the boost we needed to rise to the top of the future oil market.

brainout | 17 Jun 2016, 04:43

Um, I don't think so. Your post about Mill resonates, but this has nothing to do with Standard Oil, just cuz they use oil (Holy Spirit) in their lamps.

So the actual text, even without timeline, could mean the foolish are shut out of the Mill, so are 'outer' (elsewhere in universe) during that time. You did speculate that, and I think Thieme did too. Problem is, the text of the 2nd Coming in Heb 12 and Rev 'seems' to imply all of Church returns with Him. Maybe not permanently?

Well, the coincidental similarity between petroleum and the oil in the lamps are not my focus and to be honest, I didn't notice it at first. Trimming the wick, is what I interpret as concentration, application, and preparation for what is to come. So what is coming? The Lord and His kingdom. Use that template to interpret the satire.

The Standard Oil Trust marked the explosion of America's oil industry. In order to achieve the American Dream (more perfect government....all men created equal), America would have to rise to the top of some global market. Over time, that market became Oil. Economies boom and bust because of credit and debt which is tied to the Petrodollar. Everything that happens in the Middle East is a result of our relationship with the Saudi's.

Standard Oil itself is not significant, nor is J D Rockefeller. The significance is how petroleum became literally BECAME the fuel of the industrial revolution, and now it fuels our wars. It became our point of concentration, application, and preparation for the global economy.

Anonynomenon | 17 Jun 2016, 05:30

Matt 22:1-14 shows that the foolish are shut out of the Wedding. So I think all of Church returns with Christ, and the Outer Darkness could simply be a place in the wilderness. I don't know yet.

brainout | 17 Jun 2016, 05:32

Okay, but that's not the focus of the passage. It's about wise and foolish, therefore fake or real Bridegroom. Oil is a tool used by a ruler or a nation, not the actual belief system of it.

As for your later post, 'outside somewhere' is about all we can say right now. But it is a smoking gun. Thieme focused on this in 1992 SD, speculating that the 'losers' would be 'sitting on the sidelines', 'just watching'. I don't recall him ever firming up that vague speculation.

It makes sense to say all Church is Bride, but not all among Bride have equal privileges. Esther was part of the King's harem, but only she was Queen. So the rest of the Lord's 'harem' vary as to whether they can even get in for the Supper. Only the 'wise' get to enter; which implies, that within the 'wise', there is also variation in rank.

Rank would depict closeness.

Anonynomenon | 22 Jun 2016, 12:52

Do you think the oil in 1788 could have something to do with the ratification of the Constitution?

I'm thinking Federalism vs Anti-Federalism, but I don't really know at this point, but it seems to be the impetus behind the Monroe doctrine.

Edit:

So now I'm thinking the Foolish are the expansionists (French and Indian war 1758), and the wise where Anti-Federalists like Samuel Adams (speaking out against the Sugar act of 1764).

That would line up with the Constitution's ratification in 1788, since it was mainly a Federalist effort to replace the Article of Confederation, rather than simply fixing them. The Bill of Rights was a compromise between the Federalists and Anti-Federalists.

brainout | 22 Jun 2016, 22:29

I don't know. It should be broader, wise=with MD, and foolish w/o it. Going by Tuesday's meeting between DT and the DEFINITELY foolish Xians, we have a clear demo of what 'foolish' means: yes, expansionist but esp. trying to politicize Christianity. Full-blown Rev17 harlot.

Transcript (I'm still listening to it, only 20 mins in): Transcript: Donald Trump’s closed-door meeting with evangelical leaders

PS: we need to parse Rev17. See where it keys off Eph1:3-14 (should be at verse 9) and here in Matt24-25. In particular, I want to see when the harlot is introduced. But I wonder if ALL of Rev is now metered, since Rev1 is, and Rev17 should be.

Dunno if I'll live long enough to parse it!

Anonynomenon | 23 Jun 2016, 00:30

My internet is down for the moment, but I'll look for Dominionism in early America on my cell.

If you can post a copy of Rev 17, I can start counting. Your manuscripts seem to be more accurate than mine. That way we can have another reference point for Matt 24-25 and Luke 21.

brainout | 23 Jun 2016, 05:13

I can't post that much now. Use whatever text you have. So far none of the differences have altered syllable counts.

As for Dominionism in early America, it's not known by that name. Catholicism, Calvinism, all preterism, Methodism, etc. The 'classic' denominations are all Rev17, but the principal movement to go political was the 'Moral Majority' under Jerry Falwell (the dad) which you've heard Thieme excoriate many times. The term 'Dominionism' was invented then, held by Ted Cruz' dad, and many others. Just google "Dominionism Jerry Falwell Pat Robertson Oral Roberts Liberty U Ted Cruz Donald Trump"

But DON'T do it soon. I have a ton of work to do now. I can't really spend time on it until after October (and need surgery in between).

brainout | 23 Jun 2016, 16:03

Okay, here's a tentative idea about the kind of satire Matt25:10-11 might apply: 😈 false Rev17 bridegroom (political AND religious, i.e., Pat Robertson in 1996 or an alignment between, hence the source of Rev17's duality); the rise of the (vile) 'Moral Majority' movement in 1976-77! (which Thieme excoriated often; note 40 years after Falwell Sr is courting Reagan to get political power, fails then with Bush -- 40 years after that initial 1976, Falwell Jr. drools over DT this year);

⚠️ vs true Bridegroom, the 'sealing' (setting apart, developing) of Jeshurun (not necessarily mature, but on track and in Doctrine).

Audio says Matt25:9, but it's v.10-11, still from Matt24-25ParsedR5.pdf. Sylls 1946-1993 (1976-2023).

Audio (26 mins): Anony5.MP3

Anonynomenon | 24 Jun 2016, 05:09

Surgery? Hope everything goes well.

I heard your audio. I think you're right about the politicization of Christianity. I was born in 87, so all I've ever known about Christianity (aside from RBT's teachings) was "Southern-Baptist-Ronald-Reagan-Republicanism". I didn't realize that 1976 was such a pivotal year in the formation of that ideology.

You mentioned 2016 being 40 years from 1976. Those 40 years have to be especially significant. In 1976, we have the arrival of the "bridegroom", then in 2016, the foolish making their final call to the bridegroom. So if that particular 40 is significant, it would pertain directly to the Moral Majority harlotry.

Also I'm hesitant to write this, but I can't help noticing how this was REALLY applicable to my personal life. The door was closed in 1998, yet that was the year I was SAVED. The door to salvation was opened to me. Sadly, I wasn't serious enough about doctrine until late 2009 (other virgins returning). The year that Thieme passed was the year that I really woke up, and things started changing. So in my particular case (and I cant be the only one); while the door was closed, it was open to me, while the foolish where returning, I (being foolish too) was returning to doctrine. If I remember correctly, 2009 was also the year that I found your youtube channel (you might remember my first email).

Not to trying to make this a personal thing, but maybe the satire has a positive element too. Something that cannot be seen in political/historical herding. I really didn't expect this when I started metering. 😱

brainout | 24 Jun 2016, 11:05

Funny you should say that, I did make another audio about it BEING personal, but was loathe to post it. Hitting me hard just like you. The audio went through the confluence. Marking people for Jeshurun (not yet developed, but forming). I might send it to you as a PM.

40 years after Falwell Sr. backs Reagan to politicize Christianity, his own son backs DT. I think it's gotten VERY personal.

And not just here: Brexit just now, is 446 years after the English Reformation started, Matt 24:47 in the meter, just after the prior amen legw humin.

40 years ago, was the referendum whether to BE in the European Community. Heh. Seems like the 50/50 split in our voting for our 'bridegroom' and that of Europe has some resonance, too. Doors shutting all over the place.

EDIT through end of this post:

Rethinking your post. So then God in part caused me to know the meter in time for you to find it. And yeah, I remember your email. Probably still have it.

BTW, the Jeshurun series starts at Lesson 1054 of Series 376 1992 Spiritual Dynamics.

I'm getting the impression now that:

'Bridegroom' is a) the Real One, b) the pastor (Eph4:16's wedding-night verbs and 'haphe' means husbandman), c) some political leader deemed 'savior' by the Rev17 harlot Christians trying to politicize Christianity (i.e., the 7 Mountains movement which backs both Trump and Cruz, including Dobson and Jerry Falwell, Robertson, Roberts, etc).

'virgins' means believers. Foolish=carnal, no MD or reversionist, and wise=Jeshurun. But the foolish consider themselves wise, so when the text talks about wise, it has that sarcastic dual entendre.

Guessing therefore, that the next 30 years will still be marked in US by carnal Christians trying and failing, to get their political agenda installed, with even the c) 'bridegroom' using them to get power, then discarding them.

Anonynomenon | 25 Jun 2016, 04:15

K, so I need to order the Jeshurun lessons. Thanks for posting the lesson and series numbers.

What's bugging me now, is, why the 40 ending in 2016? I mean, we have the obvious Temple 40 in Matt 24:1, so why no other 40s until 1976-2016?

There is a 120 between syllables 1826-1946, so 120 years between going out to meet the bridegroom (year 1856) and the bridegroom's actual arrival (year 1976).

The Know Nothing Party nominated their first presidential candidate in 1856. They were an anti-Catholic political movement. You had to be a Protestant to join. Reading through the wiki page, the Know Nothings sound like a bunch of Trumpsters to me. What a fitting name. Maybe you can tweet it. #KnowNothingTrump. 😆 🤣

brainout | 25 Jun 2016, 06:08

Yep you can! Voici, KnowNothingTrump

As to the other 40's, I'd bet it's not the only one. BTW, 2016-1976 isn't an even clause measure. I just noticed the 40 distance between the two numbers. So test for any 40 you think fit.

Anonynomenon | 27 Jun 2016, 04:43

So it looks like the theme for the Parable of Virgins is Bible Doctrine vs Christian Harlotry.

1856--Go forth to meet (the bridegroom). The Know Nothing Party nominates their first Presidential candidate Millard Fillmore in hopes that they can win the election and control him. One of the founders of the Know Nothings was Lewis Levin, who very much into temperance. He seemed like a Moral Majority kind of guy.

1903--Give us from your oil. The Lincoln Legion is established to promote the Temperance movement. They basically tried to get people (children especially) to sign life long pledges to abstain from alcohol. So could the oil represent volition/commitment???

1914--For our lamps are going out. The Flying Squadron of America is formed. They start a nationwide campaign to spread and promote Temperance.

1927--The wise replied: The Voluntary Committe of Lawyers is founded to repeal the (Temperance backed) alcohol prohibition laws.

1940--lest we run out of oil. Too be continued...

brainout | 27 Jun 2016, 05:09

Yeah, I've been thinking over the same basic theme but from different angles. FOR SURE legalistic, politicizing Churchinanity is in view. Going from Matt25:10 starting in 1960 AD to 2016 is 56 years (!) and of course from 1960-2001 (depending on the fiscal used) is 40. So another 40 to 2041.

Maybe a 3-year hiatus is between sealing of Jeshurun (counting all who are gonna be in it, akin to Rev7) so 1998-2001 was an interim period.

BECAUSE, in 1960's Christianity started to turn religious, goofball, and legalistic, as you'll hear Thieme excoriate during those very years. I remember it personally, but you can hear him talk about it or ask your parents. The Jesus Freak thingy occupied the 1970's, but the tongues crowd got started in the 1960's. So too the legalization and hypocrisy (i.e., prejudice against Jews, blacks, Latinos, Asians in full swing).

The 1960's was an era of dressing up to look nice, to outdo your neighbor, to live like Ozzie and Harriet, etc. I lived that life, and hated it. ALL SHOW AND TELL AND NO GENUINE HEART.

Anonynomenon | 27 Jun 2016, 05:32

Oh yeah, I started off with Thieme's 1963 tapes. I remember him being very clear about the legalism and nut-job theology in the 60's. That's why I was so receptive to him, he stood out from the rest of Churchianity.

What about 1940? I cant really pin down a religious-political movement there. I know that during 1940, the Holocaust was going on, and USA was arguing between Isolationism and Interventionism. So Jews were being exterminated, while the world (more importantly America) stood on the sidelines. But I don't see how that pertains to religion in politics.

Maybe the silence from the Religious is the point. They were more than happy to force religious morality down people's throats, but they wont stand up for the Jews???

What do you think?

brainout | 27 Jun 2016, 05:44

Funny you mention that. We didn't want to go into WWII but Hitler started bombing Britain in 1940, and at the same time, the America First Committee (pro-German) was started.

It's related to the Know Nothing movement, and was in part anti-semitic.

FDR was thus accused of using Pearl Harbor to get us into the war (not protecting it enough, liars said).

As for the religious nuts, well there were many. SDA, Aimee Semple McPherson and her nutters, Billy Sunday, John Birch and their nutters, many 'evangelical' movements during that time which were in large measure the anti-semitic precursors of the KKK.

Not to mention the KJVO movement, which started as a kind of SDA offshoot in the 1930's.

As for the 1960's, one nutter group calls it the 4th 'Great Awakening', here.

Anonynomenon | 27 Jun 2016, 07:03

I cant really nail down any specific movements between 1940-1976. The Know Nothings, the Temperance movements, America First Committee, Moral Majority,, all those are pretty specific, but between 1940-1976, it gets pretty broad.

I do know that Billy Graham was at his peak in the 50s and 60s, and he stuck his nose into a lot of political issues...specifically the events surrounding MLK Jr. That might be significant, and actually, MLK was pretty significant too, since he used religion as a way to push Socialism.

Edit:

The year 1950 is marked by the wise telling the foolish to go to those who are selling oil. So who is selling? R. B. Thieme started his ministry at Berachah in 1950. Like you said, its no coincidence that we both study his material, so maybe Thieme and similar pastors are in view here?

brainout | 27 Jun 2016, 09:42

Yeah, that's an interesting question. The 'sellers' would be 1950. Sellers of oil, spiritual bridegrooms (haphe in Eph4:16, which should be translated 'husbandman' since Paul uses WEDDING NIGHT VERBS sunarmologew and sumbibazw). Yeah, they are supposed to tell us how to get the Oil of the Spirit (1John1:9 and then between sins, learn and live on Bible under one's own right haphe.

So the wise are telling the foolish to go get Doctrine so to be filled with the Spirit. Or get teaching to know how to be filled (cuz you learn that from a teacher, though it should be common sense). Or both, cuz once filled if you have no doctrine, you've no resistance to sin.

And, lol -- pros -- face-to-face teaching!

That we happen to be under such a 'seller' for that year, is just 'extra' help in deciphering all this, and yeah I really doubt it's coincidental. WHO was teaching Bible from the mss in 1950ff? THOSE GUYS would be the focus.

EDIT: all throughout these chapters, the Lord depicts Himself in 3rd person. So by satirical analogy, the same references should mean HIS REPRESENTATIVES: teachers, and by extension, rulers (as in Romans 13, 1Tim2, the rulers are appointed by God ruling in His Stead).

So what's the DISTANCE between each 'master' or other reference to the Lord? I don't know if that will mean anything, but it might yield results like the anaphora does.

Anonynomenon | 28 Jun 2016, 04:56

I'll have to look into the "Lord-to-Lord" distance when I get more time.

Can you elaborate on the face-to-face teaching? A lot of churches make a real issue out of it. Is there any spiritual benefit to being taught face-to-face over being a taper. I wouldn't think so, other than having the ability to ask questions in class.

brainout | 28 Jun 2016, 05:08

Face to face versus tape/online used to be an issue because people considered themselves more disciplined if they WENT physically to the church. Thieme for awhile held to that, but clearly it's more an issue of what makes you learn better. For just as many go to church, to be SEEN and don't care about learning, at all.

Point is, in the old days you had to physically go to the home where the teacher taught. Letters existed but weren't as common. So pros is clever there but also in light of the controversy OVER face-to-face teaching in the very 'year' the word pros is placed.

brainout | 30 Jun 2016, 07:57

PS I still haven't synchronized the meter between Matt24:51 and 25:30's weeping/gnashing clauses. They need to be the same count, but I can't yet figure out whether it's 14 OR 15. The latter is epic Greek meter. But so is 14 (at 3-3 and 4-4).

Since this is an anaphora from Chapter 8, it will matter a bunch to get it right. So the sevening apparent, might be something else.

Am trying to back into it by seeing what elisions I can make or remove just before the phrase, but nothing's jumping out at me right now.

Anonynomenon | 30 Jun 2016, 20:28

Looking at the meter now, looks like you can elide kardia-autou in Matt 24:48, and get rid of the krasis in ekei-estai (I never liked eliding there).

My question is, does that iota hanging of the end of kardia make it sound like kardiai

????? Could you explain that?

From what I've read, iota subscript was a Medieval practice to indicate that the word in question was originally spelled with an iota for grammatical purposes, but the iota was not pronounced by the NT Koine era.

That would fix the first weeping/gnashing without screwing up the anaphora.

Everything I've studied tells me that the Outer Darkness is a place or an exclusion from a place (the kingdom). That's just my opinion for now.

brainout | 01 Jul 2016, 19:07

Yeah, it is kardiai. So even if you run it together, the y sound makes it split syllables so you save none.

But what do you think of using krasis instead, in 24:49's κ αὶ ἄ ρξηται . I'm not sure it's a valid thing to do. If so, then someone should say something about it in 'krasis' articles. I've not yet looked them up in Google.

B-Greek would be a good place to ask, but they don't allow you to be anonymous, there. So we're stuck figuring it out for ourselves.

WAIT: I'll ask in twitter.

Anonynomenon | 02 Jul 2016, 04:26

Not sure that will work. Sounds a little weird for me.

How about this?

We can try Matt 24:50, kai en. If we use krasis there, it would be kan? I've read that krasis is used a lot with small words like conjunctions, prepositions, and pronouns. Of course, I don't know how the meter styles differ between Attic, Koine, Classical, etc.

brainout | 02 Jul 2016, 07:14

Yeah, that's a good point. So now I've got to search on whether that same construction is elsewhre in the passage for consistency.

PROBLEM: kan is kai+ean, so might be confusing, even if no subjunctive verb.

So we're both agreeing that in 25:30, 15 is the correct value? 4-3-4-4?

Anonynomenon | 02 Jul 2016, 18:08

I would not feel comfortable with changing Matt 25:30 from 15 to 14 syllables. That will throw off too many patterns.

In all of Matt 24-25, the only occurrences of "kai en" are Matt 24:50 and Matt 25:43, if we use krasis in both cases, then we can undo the four occurrences of "se eidomen" in Matt 25:37, 38, 39, & 44. So that leaves us with 3 syllables to lose to balance the anaphora, so lets try: "kathisei epi" in Matt 25:31, "ta ethnei" in Matt 25:32, and "de erifya" in Matt 25:33.

That balances the anaphora, and it brings Matt 25:34a to 2765=105+(2100+560).

brainout | 03 Jul 2016, 13:15

Okay, well I'm going with krasis instead at Matt24:49's καὶ ἄρξηται due to flow of text. It's natural for krasis to occur vocally mid-sentence. Done a lot when kai and the next verb begins with a, so pronounced κ'ἄρξηται .

Very common in all languages. Like modern Surf 'n' Turf to say surf and turf.

Then the total becomes 1606 (now short 4 in both directions). And, it's 490 higher than 1116 (after 2nd amen legw humin but w/o hoti).

So then totals change to 1635 (divisible by 3), 1658, then same 1673 when the elision is removed. So the only sevening is from 1540, so now diff is your 133. Pretty pithy statement, and the opposite in meaning versus the 77 diff in the R5.pdf draft.

But I still think there are self-cancelling errors afterwards, to 1946. There should be some sevening in between 1673 and 1946. Might be that we have to break the clauses more, since several of those lines are multiple clauses. I didn't break them for convenience, but maybe should.

Anonynomenon | 03 Jul 2016, 18:25

Yeah, maybe we can break those clauses down further and find more subsevening. However, if you think καὶ ἄρξηται is proper, then that would resolve problem, right? At least for now anyways, so I don't know what you mean by 4 short in both directions. Do you mean 4 syllables short?

brainout | 03 Jul 2016, 18:57

The 1540 should be followed by 1610 but it's 1606 (nee: 1607). Must be deliberate, as it balances to prior amen legw humin from 1116 (diff is 490, can't be a coincidence). But is 4 short of when the voting period ends. That voting period IS 1570-1640AD, which is exactly the same as the English Reformation. Can't be a coincidence, either.

So why the 4 short? Varro error play? I don't know, but it could instead signify someone's time grant runs out before the voting period ends. Similar weird anomaly in the 3153 (extending past 3150, why).

Unless there are other errors, of course. 😛

brainout | 03 Jul 2016, 19:57

BTW, I found someone noting krasis for kai en, here:

Search on 'crasis' when you load the link.

Not sure I agree, as anything Chrysostom contends, is worth much. The guy was as antisemitic as they come.

Anonynomenon | 04 Jul 2016, 00:04

Well, from the link I provided, they used "kan" as krasis for "kai hen". I suggested it for "kai en", and you're saying it already exists for "kai ean", so we have two established possibilities, and maybe a third one from myself (who knows very little Greek).

So was it a matter of context clues to determine what the krasis actually meant (kai hen vs kai ean), or is it a matter of dialect vs dialect?

brainout | 04 Jul 2016, 03:42

Well, the Textkit thread uses kai en like you wanted to do. But it's using Chrysostom's quote of Scripture. Still, if that construction existed, maybe there's justificaiton. Chrysostom used kan for kai en. So I posted a query about it.

I only joined today and am not allowed to post links, so it might be awhile before I get an answer.

brainout | 04 Jul 2016, 13:31

Interesting article on how things were in 1976... It’s not our leaders who make America great: By John Podhoretz

brainout | 04 Jul 2016, 15:47

Take a look at this guy's syllable counts, and the dipthongs: http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=65215&p=183770#p183770

Someone just started a new thread there specifically on the topic of syllable counts, so I made reply, http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=65227&p=183786#p183786

You can join with anonymous username, but they want real address, and you're not allowed to post links for the 1st 10 posts. I'm just past that now, but am chary of posting links there until someone says it's okay. Those are their rules to prevent spammers.

Anonynomenon | 11 Jul 2016, 04:53

Haven't had much time to spend on the meter this past week, however there is something I've wanted to look into for a while now; Magna Carta.

In the Revelation series, Thieme has been going on and on and on,...and on, about Magna Carta for about 4 lessons in a row now. At first, I was starting to get a little annoyed, but I do see the parallel between the Millennial kingdom and the old feudal system. Now I'm wondering if Magna Carta had something to do with the Meter in Matt 24. It took place around 1216, which is syllable 1186. That is right smack in the middle of Matt 24:36. Given our recent stand-off on this issue, I find the timing ironic, in a way, especially with the timing of Thieme's nearly obsessive emphasis of Magna Carta.

I'll see what I can find tomorrow.

brainout | 11 Jul 2016, 09:06

Sure, look into it. Kinda strange, the context in Matt 24:36. I've not gotten that far in analyzing the text, but whatever takes place during those years would have to seem like a 2nd coming, politically. Or a Rapture.

Anonynomenon | 12 Jul 2016, 05:09

I couldn't find much with Magna Carta. If that is the focus, then I can't connect the dots properly.

What I do see is the Catholic Church ramping up its totalitarian authority over Europe, starting with the Crusade against the Carthars, resulting in the establishment of the Dominican Order as the driving force behind the infamous Inquisitions.

1177+30=1207AD knows no one—Count Ramon VI is excommunicated for supporting the Carthars, as an attempt to assert Catholic authority over the Carthars. Excommunication was based on the "sovereignty" of the Catholic Church.

1187+30=1217AD not the angels of heaven--Pope Honorius III issues Gratiarum omnium to recognize St. Dominic’s followers as an order dedicated to study and authorized to preach. This authority was previously reserved to local Episcopals. Followers of Dominic considered messengers/angels

1192+30=1222AD nor the Son—Basilica of St. Sabina is transferred from Honorius III to the Dominican Order, in order to make it their official Stadium Conventuale (headquarters). By this time, Dominic had just died, but the Pope (playing role of Father) is transferring authority and dominion (inheritance) to Dominic (playing role as Son)

1199+30=1229AD only the Father—Catholic Church permanently establishes the Inquisition. It is charged by the Dominican Order in Rome. At this point, to challenge the Pope/Catholic Church resulted in torture and even death.

What do you think? Biting satire?

brainout | 12 Jul 2016, 21:31

Could be. But I'd be looking for chiliastic movements during this time, see how the Church wanted to stop them. Cathars were chiliasts, Cathars chiliasm

brainout | 13 Jul 2016, 07:12

Here's an update on the crasis of kai en= kan as you suspected, this time citing the venerable Liddel-Scott, http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=64657&p=183776#p183776

Anonynomenon | 13 Jul 2016, 07:26

He said that 'kan' for 'kai en' is popular in Attic. Do you think maybe Matthew was borrowing from Attic? I don't see why that would be the case for a simple conjunction and preposition. Ask him if that particular krasis was used in Koine.

If 'kan' is legit, then we could probably use the changes I suggested unless you see something else. The problem is, what other kinds of krasis could we be overlooking? That could be a very big variable, though it seems like we do have some very solid benchmarks.

brainout | 13 Jul 2016, 11:33

Exactly. Attic was common enough. Just as you'll mix slang and highbrow talk in the same Spanish or English sentence, so too the Greeks. Similar to how one uses movie phrases, to switch to Attic (the language of Greek drama) adds color. Paul switches from Attic outhen in 1Cor13:2, to koine ouden in verse 3 (you'll hear Thieme cover that in 1992 Spiritual Dynamics, I forget where, maybe also in 1Cor exeg). Titus 1:12 is Attic famous quote, mixed in with koine words.

I suspect Hebrews 11:1 is actually some kind of Greek drama meter, but have yet to ask. Dramatic points often suddenly appear via dropped verbs, conversions of verbs to participles and verbal nouns, dropped prepositions (all Attic Greek drama styles).

We do the same in English, when changing the tone of discourse to a brief dramatic point. Or, just in speaking any sentence, you'll find a mix of casual and formal English.

So as for kai en, whether or not it originally was used in Attic, it would easily infuse into koine. It's in Matt24:50 and 25:43, so is convenient for the first, but overkill on the 2nd, requiring de-elision as well.

I'm not sure this is what should be done, but at least now there is more justification for trying it...

brainout | 15 Jul 2016, 17:37

Remember our earlier discussion on 1976? Well here's a graphic on the history of #abortion politics which just showed up in my twitter feed from Washington Post:

This link is relevant, too, for our meter: I helped start the Moral Majority. Trump is the opposite of what we wanted.: By Michael Farris

brainout | 26 Jul 2016, 00:21

Read this article to see the significance of how apt, Matt25:10-11 is, if we interp it as Falwell father-to-son politicizing, Falwell doesn't know if SBC's Russell Moore is 'closet liberal' or conservative (July, 2016)

To me it's a smoking gun. Parallel post here: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=478&p=2838#p2838

Anonynomenon | 26 Jul 2016, 03:59

Yeah, I listened to Falwell Jr's very dull RNC speech. I don't get why Christians want to be associated with that guy.

brainout | 26 Jul 2016, 05:45

Political Christianity will take anything to get its goals. You discovered Matt24 just in time. I never would have guessed those ties so deeply, had you not done it. Surely God will use the discovery to help others, too.

It's like, ever since you did that, all the pieces are clicking together in my head from way back in my International Relations classes from 1971-75, during which time I learned of the Col.

Anonynomenon | 26 Jul 2016, 06:17

Yeah, well this meter came at a very strange and uncomfortable time in my life, so I guess God was giving me something to focus my attention on. I'm just now starting to make sense of the past decades now too (as you saw in twitter). I always knew there were financiers behind our presidential candidates, I just could never make sense of the whole thing. Now its starting to click.

brainout | 26 Jul 2016, 09:56

Well, we gotta grow. 2Chron7:14. So if it takes this disturbing meter discovery to do it, then even if we're the only ones, God will bless perhaps enough to stave off the war that is coming. Or better, to wake up others so the Jeshurun increase.

brainout | 09 Aug 2016, 07:41

Okay, I think I understand what Christ is doing as a timeline 'theme':

• tracking Church as Bridge of Time from His Death (theme from Matt16:18 following) toTrib and End of Time.
• tracking how the Man of Time on Roman Model, 'moves' during time FOLLOWING RISE IN BIBLE cuz Satan always politicizes religion.
• so the Gentile anti-christ CHANGES POTENTIAL depending on where in history, Bible interest has risen; politicizing it when it rises, to reduce/kill its rise.

Right now, the politicizing is occuring in Russia (Putin claims to be religious), and in the US (under Trump).

Idea is to warn believers of the trend pre-Trib, but also to warn them where if Rapture happens, the Gentile 'anti-christ' will likely be. So they can avoid it.

That might translate into a 'move' order for some, so would have to be known in advance. Conversely, it might translate into a 'stay' order for some, to grow more as a bulwark. Again, though, it would have to be known in advance. Pattern of Jeremiah, he was of the 'stay' crowd.

Thieme's last letter cited Jeremiah 29:11. I knew immediately he was forecasting diaspora. That of course is exactly what happened to Berachah. Split in two, and both successors don't ...

Anonynomenon | 09 Aug 2016, 08:39

I'm also focusing on Turkey. Russia is getting closer to Erdogan now, and EU is seriously considering the merger. I know that Erdogan is all about Islam, but I think he'll start with the Chrislam propaganda to smooth things over in Europe.

Remember, that the Rev 17 harlot is not real Christianity at all. It comes after the Rapture, therefore it is not started by believers or for believers. It must be something entirely different that plain Poli-Christianity. Like Constantine's integration of Pagan gods with poli-christianity. So just as in Constantine's day, I would expect to see religious blending for diplomatic reasons.

Probably a move order for Christians in Turkey (if the crackdown wasn't obvious enough), parts of Europe and Russia. And probably a stay order for America...unless Brexit sets the stage for a new exodus, but things would have to get really bad first.

brainout | 10 Aug 2016, 05:49

Maybe. Right now Erdogan is too weak. He's got Russia at his head. Putin pretends to be religious, so maybe something will happen there.

brainout | 17 Aug 2016, 11:01

Will start doing the R5.pdf vids next week. I get the whole meaning now. It was no coincidence that you found the meter in February. We'd need the events from then onward to have a plausible interp, and yeah it ties to Thieme's Jeshurun thingy. I get that now, too.

Anonynomenon | 18 Aug 2016, 00:01

Can you give me a short summary of the theme? Is it US-centric? Or Global?

brainout | 18 Aug 2016, 05:00

US-centric, but with impact globally. Idea of tracing how the 'salt' moves over the world through history, and when it impacts positively or negatively. I realize now that's been the theme of all the Bible timelines from Genesis forward. Of course absent the meter, Thieme taught that for a long time, as 'Blessing or Cursing by Association' from the Bible text itself (i.e., Lev 26 and Deut 28).

So Matt25:10-12 shows the denouement of the negative believers, times it, then shows in Matt25:14 and following a higher percentage of positive (2/3) versus the prior epoch (50/50). Helps explain why bad times are allowed to happen to believers, in aggregate, the 'harvest', macro playout of the seed parable.

I don't know whether the new epoch is still in the US or somewhere else, or is in a larger portion of the world geographically, etc. But seems clear now the message is like Pharaoh's plagues, how others learn and grow and convert as a result of seeing the bad stuff happen (here, to the negative believers and their nastiness).

Specifically, that US Christians implode now, and get punished over the next 25 years (to 2041), as a result of their politicizing Christianity beginning in 1960 (start of Matt25:10). We're at 56 years now (1st Lord in Matt 25:11), so it makes a lot of sense.

Notice how your idea of embedded meters is actually represented too, so now I wonder where the others are.

brainout | 21 Aug 2016, 00:50

Here's a proposed intro to Matt25:10-12, 1hr 6 min (!) audio, http://www.brainout.net/downloads/wma/Matt25-10-12Intro.MP3

I had planned to make the video just a static screen of page 4 of Matt24-25ParsedR5.pdf which shows Matt25:9-23, but only center on the gist meaning (with some context for nubies) of Matt25:10-12.

Seems too much for the nubies in Youtube? Was trying to figure out if I should instead make a shorter video, and differently. What say you?

Rtomassi | 21 Aug 2016, 19:14

You know, I'm leaning toward the opinion that if someone comes across your postings and they find the information compelling, then they'll do whatever leg work necessary to fill in any gaps they may have. At least that's been my experience. So, not sure something shorter will help. I'm watching much of your Twitter TL, and can't miss the fact that A LOT of the idiots that respond to you seem to be beyond any sense of reason.

I have about 10 minutes left to listen to on this audio, and it seems pretty straight forward.

Anonynomenon | 21 Aug 2016, 20:52

I agree with Rtomassi here. I think the video was an excellent introduction to the subject. You mentioned the prophetic hook, "bible's prophecy from the years 1960-2041", within the first 13 seconds. You explained the basic principles behind the meter, and covered the politicization of Christianity from the 60's to present. If people can't take the time to pay attention to the intro, or don't care enough to learn the meter, then the video simply isn't for them. People spend more time on blood moon tetrad videos than on the Bible's own timeline.

brainout | 22 Aug 2016, 02:18

Okay guys, THANK YOU. I'll join the audio to the video. It's now after 9pm CT, and I've got to post the next GodDeeds episode (be nice if I did it before midnight for a change), and then I'll render the audio and vid pic just as described above.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR FEEDBACK. I always hate my videos, I talk too much. Thanks again!

brainout | 22 Aug 2016, 04:06

OH SOMEONE KILL. ME NOW.

Civil War's end is Matt25:7's FIRST SYLLABLE of parthenoi.

2009 when Thieme died and Obama had his first year in office, is ALSO the first syllable of parthenoi, in Matt25:11.

In that video about the 3rd Reconstruction, it's 2009 per the guy talking. See for yourself.

Okay, so 2009-1865 is..144 !!! Trinity meter!

I need smelling salts. Am rendering the videos now on other computer.

Anonynomenon | 22 Aug 2016, 04:39

So what are you thinking? That Obama is what America gets for years of post-Civil War racism?

brainout | 22 Aug 2016, 05:43

I don't know. Something about God delivering the blacks like He did the Jews in Egypt. That 144 reminds me of Rev7, for example.

Not to say Obama's policies are right. But that God's are. Same would be true compared to any human ruler. It's awful poetic, doncha think?

Anonynomenon | 22 Aug 2016, 06:21

Yeah its poetic. Slavery abolished on Jan 31,1865, and Obama inaugurated Jan 20, 2009. From slave to leader in 144 years.

brainout | 22 Aug 2016, 06:44

Yikes. So if from beginning parthenoi start 1865 to end parthenoi end 2011 hence 147, what might be that significance? It has to be satirical, spiritual, political, wry, beautiful and big OUCH all at same time? Or am I just being too picky?

PS the Matt24 video is rendering, says it will take 2 hours. Might not stay up that long.

Anonynomenon | 22 Aug 2016, 16:09

Well the 147th syllables would be the first in legousai. Obama talks ALOT, other than that, I can't think of any special significance.

brainout | 23 Aug 2016, 08:05

Well, I'm thinking 147 is the end of parthenoi (three syllables). So that takes us to 2011's end, depending on fiscal, which we don't yet know. Not sure if it's intended, but it was an interesting 'spread'. But so is 144. Just an idea.

Anonynomenon | 01 Sep 2016, 05:02

Looking at Matt 25:33&41 I noticed that εὐωνύμων is counted as 4 syllables in vs 33, but 3 syllables in 41. I think it should be 4 syllables. To fix the imbalance we can take the following steps:

1. Expand the 3 occurrences of σε εἴδομεν to 4 syllables each in vs 37, 38, 39. +3 syllables to keep anaphora balanced.
2. Expand εὐωνύμων to 4 syllables and αἰώνιον to 4 syllables in vs 41. +2 syllables
3. Expand σε εἴδομεν to 4 syllables in vs 44. +1 syllable balancing next anaphora
4. Expand both occurrences of αἰώνιον to 4 syllables in vs 46. +2 syllables.
5. Elide ζωὴν to 1 syllables. -1 syllable.

These changes would keep the Anaphoric benchmarks stable and it would add an additional 7 syllables to the meter.

Edit.
After the 217 in @ vs 37, we get a 119=50+69, ending at vs 40. Then vs 41-44b is 154.

Then it looks like the final paragraph might be a solid 77, so 3150+77.

brainout | 01 Sep 2016, 07:58

se eidomen can't be but 3 syllables. Comes from oida, only two syllables, and the e sound elides into the ei, just like it does in modern French and Spanish.

Easier to make verse 33's euwnumwn three syllables, and treat eriphia as 4, since the 'i' naturally sounds due to ph. The same word is in v.32, diff case, so that count stays the same.

Bigger: you're gonna have trouble changing zoen to one syllable. I can't think of a single instance where anyone pronounced its nominative form as but one syllable.

If you have some other reason for changing the total to 77 versus 70, then we'd have more justification. We talked about the 14, but 7 of it is during CA, and the Trib won't occur during CA, so the 70 ending makes it look like CA is not being predicted as to length, despite completion of the Talmudic 7000.

I'm not saying what you propose is wrong. I'm asking for more justification. The last anaphora syllable count would change due to those emendations, so is the change relative to prior anaphora significant? What would it reveal?

brainout | 01 Sep 2016, 11:26

PS: I'm still trying to find out if anything significant in 1998 other than Thieme's warning about Church apostasy (and almost immediately afterwards Berachah's office caught fire, but it was put out), can explain the 'door'. Found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnett_Slepian

So maybe it's a sarcastic reference, since a prolifer shut the door on Slepian.

Oh and lookie here, for 2009: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Tiller

Anonynomenon | 01 Sep 2016, 17:47

I don't have any other justification at this point to support the changes, so I guess you're right, especially if it causes a grammar issue with ζωὴν. Plus your change is simpler.

Anonynomenon | 02 Sep 2016, 06:29

I was looking more into 1976 and found this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9BksDe4zXk (video now unavailable)

I don't know how relevant it was in its time, but it might tie to the popularization of chrislamic ecumenism. By 1976, text says that while the Bridegroom arrived, the foolish where out buying oil. They must have stopped at the snake-oil stand.

brainout | 02 Sep 2016, 17:37

Good point. Same year as the series Jesus of Nazareth.

Rtomassi | 02 Sep 2016, 20:29

Are you referring to the Franco Zeffirelli version? I was thinking that was released in 1977.

brainout | 03 Sep 2016, 10:04

Yes, I was. Okay, so thank you for the correction.

I can't tell how long it took to shoot, but the US release date would still have been in Jewish civil-year fiscal 1976, Jesus of Nazareth: Release info

Unbeknownst to the publishers, the release date was EXACTLY the anniversary on which Christ was crucified. It's always 14 days after the vernal equinox each year, when real Passover begins, Exodus 12. Note how vernal equinox in 'our' 1977 would have been April 4 in Jerusalem when the film released, https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/seasons.html?year=1950&n=110

Coincidence?

Somehow both Jews and Gentiles got wonky and forgot God never uses lunar years in Bible.

The point we're working on is the significance of 1976, which is 1946 years post-Christ speaking in the meter. We both see its significance in other ways, but are trying to expand the scope. Anonynomenon was posting The Message due to its release date, wondering if that too was partly in mind. So we're both just musing about it.

Generally, movie release dates aren't of import in Bible timelines. 😛

Yet the focus on Bible-related stuff DURING 1976 might be reflected in movies posted then. So it's a tangential question. The whole timeline is about Bible rollout/interest, how 'salt of the earth' waxes and wanes and thus positively or negatively impacts history. Negative, when Bible interest wanes; when it wanes, politicking and antisemitism rise. So that's the thing we're tracking.

Any input you care to provide, will be much appreciated! Also, any counting errors you find!

Rtomassi | 03 Sep 2016, 15:30

Principal photography was carried out in Morocco and Tunisia from September 1975 to May 1976.

Noting Anonynomenon's post re:popularization and trend toward ecumenism at the time (1976), I found this quote from Zeffirelli and Sir Lew Grade (Producer), from the book: Llewellyn, Dawn; Sawyer, Deborah F. (2008). Reading Spiritualities: Constructing and Representing the Sacred. Ashgate. p.214

'Both Grade and Zeffirelli insisted their adaptation of Jesus's life should be 'ecumenical', coherent, even to non-believers, and 'acceptable to all denominations'.

If you recall, for dramatic purposes, they incorporated some fictional characters, namely "Zerah", who conspires with Judas to betray Christ, thereby making Judas a more sympathetic character than what scripture portrays him as. Ian McShane was quite wonderful in the role. The cast was impressive to say the least.

In spite of wonderful cast and director, I do think that this profound work could fall under the category of "foolish virgins"...

brainout | 03 Sep 2016, 17:20

Okay, that's very helpful. Agreed it's too ecumenical. At the time it came out I could barely spell 'Jesus' and fell in love with the production. As soon as it came out on VHS I bought it, initial price was $150. Most I've ever paid for any media.

But now, viewing it, except for certain scenes I find it repugnant, esp. the fake Star of Bethlehem, of which there was none in the Bible and of course no 3 wise men, either.

Yeah, foolish virgins.

Rtomassi | 03 Sep 2016, 18:26

I was 11 when it came out and very struck by it as well. Some scenes are quite moving, particularly the teaching scenes in the Temple. And I have to admit, Robert Powell was the face of Jesus for me for a long time until I started to delve more into the "Jewishness" of the Bible. I dunno, perhaps Jesus did have piercing blue eyes ....😉

brainout | 05 Sep 2016, 06:19

Well, a lot of Jews have blond hair. David was a redhead, you heard Thieme teach about that. Blue eyes would be common, too. Berbers, Circassians, I forget who else. OH: Aryans. 😛

Rtomassi | 06 Sep 2016, 03:39

Saw the news earlier of the passing of Phyllis Schlafly. Didn't realize she was such an avid supporter of Trump. I know she was 92, and the death of someone that age isn't exactly shocking, but can't help but think "foolish virgins" may have some bearing.

brainout | 07 Sep 2016, 03:44

To Anonynomenon: yeah, Schafly has to figure in, the 1960's and following were a time where she was a large player.

Anonynomenon | 11 Sep 2016, 01:35

This is interesting. Someone has printed up and circulate "beast bills", riddled with secret messages, political satire and Bible references.

The one that stands out the most to me is "Lord Lord", on the side that has Hilary and Trump side-by-side. You would have to fold the bill joining the two halves of the goat head to see the message.

Not directly related to the meter, but it shows the attitude that people have for the Govt in general.

Front face.

Back face. (source image has been deleted)

brainout | 11 Sep 2016, 06:58

And verse reference of Matt25:45. And the IS312 could be Isaiah 3:12 (more apt) or 31:2 (on how God delivers).

Anonynomenon | 11 Sep 2016, 17:20

Yeah, also the Hillary-Trump side has Peace, peace in Arabic and (I think) Chinese, but right next to the Arabic is "Lo" (first half of Lord in green). 'Lo' is Hebrew for 'no', so is it saying "No peace" in Hebrew and Arabic? Maybe referencing the constant conflict between the Arabs and Jews?

Then on the back there is the Dragon siting on a fallen cross and the pages of the Constitution, rewriting the law. Could be depicting Dominionism.

A lot of elements from the Meter's theme for the last 40 years.

brainout | 13 Sep 2016, 04:28

Oh, okay. I missed that.

Anonynomenon | 15 Sep 2016, 03:15

The "Beast Bill" countdown expired and pulled up a video of some nut job pro-lifer (artist who created the bill) ranting emotionally about abortion. He's accusing Christians of being complacent with "child sacrifice", as well as calling for activism. I wont link the video, as it is very graphic (contains footage of actual abortions), but this is relevant to the meter.

Its funny how he rants about America's "sin", but doesn't present the gospel clearly or accurately.

brainout | 15 Sep 2016, 06:04

Yeah, and he forces you to watch, no controls, so you can't even hear his issues until the end. Frankly I just closed the tab before he finished. THAT is the typical problem with these people, they think they are the holy generation, that all prior generations must be evil for not forcing people the same way, total no grace no Spirit in them.

BREATH OF LIFE begins life. Bible says it so many times. They can't read it.

Anonynomenon | 15 Sep 2016, 06:55

I watched the whole thing out of morbid curiosity. He seems emotionally unstable to me, bordering on psychosis. He started a new site federalbeast.com, which I suspect he will use to expand and spread his cult propaganda.

Look at the back of his bill again.

He included the initials of the Supreme Court Justices involved in Rowe vs Wade, with Moloch siting on the steps of the Supreme Court.... Again, tying to the Meter, and again bordering on psychosis.

People like this really make Christians look bad.

brainout | 15 Sep 2016, 07:54

Yeah, they've had 56(!) years to vote and now that the vote is critical, they show up nuts. I just prayed for them to be exposed/re-exposed to Gospel, 1John1:9, common sense, awakened, etc. Strategic prayer. I will NOT make the same mistake I made back in 1984 or so when Gorby came into power. Prayer should be higher than political, yikes!

brainout | 26 Sep 2016, 14:27

Do these interim videos help as backgrounders to explain the meter? Here's the latest one I did showing how the Matt24 use of 63 dateline is later reflected in Luke, and its 49 dateline is reflected in Acts:

I have done but not posted many of these, but I'm afraid ot TL DR in the viewer. Also afraid of going too far afield from the actual Matt24 timeline theme, but on the other hand I want to provide some backup for the rhetorical style using other Bible passages which 'tag' Matt24.

What do you think?

Anonynomenon | 26 Sep 2016, 20:53

I think its a good video. It shows how meter characters work to string passages of scripture into complete doctrinal principles, sorta like a concordance/commentary but better. That way people see the doctrinal meaning as well as historical trends.

I also think 20 mins is well within reason for this subject. There is no one shot deal in metering.

Rtomassi | 26 Sep 2016, 23:50

They are an immense help! I'm still far behind, but catching up! 👍

brainout | 27 Sep 2016, 05:39

Thank you both. I always talk too fast, and worry that I make no sense. Be sure to tell me where I could do better, if you're in the mood? Thank you!

brainout | 28 Sep 2016, 06:10

You'll catch up just fine. I only just tonight realize that what Anony found is for his generation and yours. YOU GUYS are the stars of history. You, your kids, and your grandkids. TWO THIRDS in Matt25:13ff for 2062 and following, refers to YOUR generation in their 60's (as Gary and I am now) -- YOURS. And then your kids, who at that point will be in their 40's with kids of their own, in their 20's.

THAT is why Thieme back in the 1950's when I was born. To prep for this. For YOU GUYS.

Now I know why God gave me the meter thingy, and why HE caused Anony to keep at it, bugging me to look at it, but I was a stubborn fool. No longer.

Odd thing is, I've never married. Yet have a quasi- spiritual mommy role.

I gotta go faint now.

Anonynomenon | 23 Oct 2016, 19:59

I was just thinking about the next 14 years. The years 2024-2030 consist of the 7 syllable clause, ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν, in Matt 25:12. So I guess that's going to be a really bad time in America, and maybe for a larger part of the world. If the current generation is supposed to set the stage for the next 600 years of positive volition, then there has to be some sort of distillation of the believing population to form a new pivot, right? Kinda like when you reduce broth in a pot to make a sauce.

So is Matt 25:12 a 'get out of Dodge' warning, or a, 'put on your seatbelts' warning???

The following set of clauses (Matt 25:12b-13 ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐκ οἶδα ὑμᾶς; γρηγορεῖτε οὖν, ὅτι οὐκ οἴδατε τὴν ἡμέραν οὐδὲ τὴν ὥραν) suggest that if America is still Client Nation during this time, it will be judged by the year 2061. So its possible that whatever pivot comes out of 2024-2030, it will be small/short-lasting one, and will only sustain that Client Nation for a total of 31 years. That also suggests, 2062 and forward will be the rise of another Client Nation, possibly rising out of the ashes of whatever conflict destroys the preceding Client Nation in 2061...perhaps a 15-20 year long war (γρηγορεῖτε οὖν + ὅτι οὐκ οἴδατε τὴν ἡμέραν οὐδὲ τὴν ὥραν)???

So maybe the ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν starting in 2031 will be a 6+25 year Exodus window for watchful believers (6 years for the early birds).

brainout | 23 Oct 2016, 20:55

Definitely something big has to happen in the 2023-2030 window. And we're now 7 years from it.

brainout | 27 Oct 2016, 18:49

Still thinking through what you posted. What if there is an embedded 40 between 2061 and 2021 or earlier? Because, England remained a client nation yet was used to birth the US as one. So co-existing, maybe even through now..

Anonynomenon | 27 Oct 2016, 20:57

I was looking for a 40 too, but I cant find one that breaks with syntax. If I had to guess, I would say the next Client Nation would be born in 2036 where the Lord says, "I do not know you." Then USA might lose Superpower status in 2061. It might not result in a fall, but a severe demotion as in the case of WWII England. I do remember Thieme saying that England lost Client Nation status in WWII. If we look at Matt 25:9a, it lines up with the Blitz bombing of London in 1940.

brainout | 28 Oct 2016, 05:44

Trouble with our reading a black/white changeover is that God may merely be cleaning house WITHIN the client nation. So οὐκ οἶδα ὑμᾶς might instead reflect a sort of national testament that the foolish prolifers are anti-God that people recognize. So the prolifers FINALLY lose political power.

To see how sick they are, peruse this list: [twitter has since deleted this list]. It's all emotion with them. A few voices in there are sane, but most not. And daily, it gets worse.

So that's why I'm not sure how we should read its text, but am sure a 40 is playing. The text break is between the end of Matt25:12 (ending w that phrase) and just after ὕστερον δὲ in Matt 25:11 (that end is 2001 AD). Could be wrong, but it ties so fittingly with Dubya's first year in office, and with 9/11, I have to think it's intentional. For the foolish virgins are OUT until 'later on', coming back w Dubya, who refused to support the prolife agenda (saying famously in his website and which prolifers angrily repeated, so you can google this: 'America isn't ready yet').

In any event, could well mean your generation -- or your kids' -- finally pushes out the prolife agenda and goes back to God-centered Christianity. Again, the bigger issue is US is still the best place for Bible scholarship/teaching, despite the 90% plus false-teaching.

Anonynomenon | 28 Oct 2016, 15:55

Hopefully the election results will shed more light on how to interpret the rest of the parable. The suspense is a killer!

brainout | 31 Oct 2016, 08:11

Well, the point of the passage seems to be that 50% of the salt are saltless so history will prove bad no matter what, though 2041. Flipside, that what y'all learn through it passes to your kids and their kids and so on, so for the next 600 years (if no Rapture), future history will be much better.

Need to recheck the sevens. Like you've said many times, they seem too sparse.

After that, it goes REALLY bad, until the end. Keeps me up at night, thinking how important our NOW is.

Anonynomenon | 31 Oct 2016, 17:48

I keep forgetting about that ratio change. I wonder why, out of the entire CA timeline, its only during colonial and post colonial history that believer maturity ratios are disclosed?

brainout | 03 Nov 2016, 22:03

Well, maybe the ratios aren't relevant until then? I don't know why 1703AD et seq. has ratios disclosed.

Anonynomenon | 10 Nov 2016, 02:59

Donald Trump's full victory speech: Business Insider

As I watch Trump's acceptance speech, I get the impression that he will possibly be elected for two terms, to lead us into the 7 year micro-trib of 2024-2030. Maybe all the work that Trump and his Foolish Virgins hope to achieve between 2017-2023 will begin to backfire on them in 2024-2030. Maybe they are setting up their own trap...digging their own mass grave....who knows? Nevertheless, in his acceptance speech, Trump is yet again promising "only the best" for America. Its exactly what the Foolish Virgins want to hear from their anti-christ.

Given Trump's track record, the only way he can deliver on any these promises is by turning the nation against an imagined boogeyman/scapegoat, just as he has done to all of his enemies/obstacles. The Foolish Virgins desperately want the door to be opened, and the False-groom seems willing to say/do anything to appease them.

shadowimage | 10 Nov 2016, 04:29

At first I was a little skeptical if it had to do with anything (since Trump only cares about Trump), however he and his supporters are actually quite anti-Semitic, the TYT did a surprisingly good video on it: Guess Which Religion Trump Is Coming After Now?

You'll see one of the brainwashed teens talk fondly of Alex Jones and start purporting conspiracies on "zionism" equating all Jews to being evil. Except... there's no such thing.

Alex Jones, by the way, contradicts himself so much. He's a staunch roman catholic and tries to pass that off as conservative christianity, but at the same time then says the pope is wrong to say Trump is wrong. In other words, Alex Jones is a Catholic who believes in 'whatever' and runs Infowars to make a quick buck. Quite a lucrative business from so many gullible people. Just like the (now deceased) Jack Chick or Gail Riplinger.

Anonynomenon | 10 Nov 2016, 18:48

Oh yeah, I know all about Alex Jones. I used to listen to his radio show back in 2009 until he started going off the deep end. Then I did some research on him and found out he was a total propaganda opportunist. Just the kind of guy who would support Trump.

brainout | 11 Nov 2016, 04:36

Is this where I should put the 28 min audio, Anony?
How the 1st Lord in Matt25:11 depicts judgment, even though DT won: TrumpWinGodJudges.MP3

Created a full Twitter moment out of it, replete with related vids, How God Judges via 'winning' [twitter has since deleted this list]. So because of that, I can keep tweeting in twitter, as it no longer has to stay static for those posts to show first.

As for your insights, shadowimage, if the anti-semites start attacking, DT who doesn't need them anymore, might be able to divide them out and conquer: to look like a hero to the Dems and the FIFTY PERCENT WHO DID NOT VOTE AT ALL in 2016. Easy to replace one gullible group with another. That's how Hitler did it.

Anonynomenon | 11 Nov 2016, 05:58

@Brainout
Yeah, I think the audio fits nicely with the subject matter. I don't know what Trump's plans are for the USA, but if he wants to win the second term, then he will have to find some kind of boogeyman to terrorize the public with, during the first term. So term 1 might be characterized by his desperation to maintain popularity. Term 2 (if re-elected) would be the careless term, which could be dangerous if Trump has any kind of ideological agenda to fulfill. Trump seems to be driven by opportunism, greed, and power lust, so I doubt he really has any kind of political ax to grind. Its too early to tell at this point.

If (hypothetically), Trump really does have an anti-Semitic agenda, then it likely wouldn't come out until his second term. Instead, he would likely emphasize the Islamic terror threat, the drug wars, and the gang violence attributed to illegal immigration. If played right, that alone could get him re-elected. By that point, if the boogeyman is scary enough, and Trump has the borders locked down, then American citizens would be sitting ducks, and Trump would have the perfect environment to push an anti-Semitic agenda. First, the heat needs to be turned up and the borders secured to hold the pressure in. That is how you convert democracy into fascism.

brainout | 11 Nov 2016, 07:17

Well, we'll soon see. I have trouble 'seeing' DT live past 2017.

In any event, your kids will spend their formative years under a Trump Presidency style, so you will have ample opportunity to teach them what 'bad' is. Millions of kids will be thus innoculated, and I bet many of them will get serious about Bible, given how Matt25:13ff reads.

brainout | 13 Nov 2016, 07:32

In any event, yeah 2023-2030 has to be judgment, maybe even war. That's past the two terms. And it's Christ's answering, 1st clause in Matt25:12. Hope I'm dead by then, but I fear I won't be. I can't imagine living that long.

Anonynomenon | 13 Nov 2016, 21:29

Yeah, that's exactly why I believe there might be two terms of Trump, because it looks like it might incur judgment. It might mean that Trump will give more power to the evangelical dominionists, which is a frustrating thought.

brainout | 16 Nov 2016, 02:17

Well, clearly the others in the family are being groomed for public office. So maybe not DT himself, but one of them.

brainout | 20 Nov 2016, 08:06

This post is under prolonged construction. I found a handy albeit incomplete and not wholly accurate Jerusalem timeline, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Jerusalem

Background videos most relevant to this post start here: Matt24Meter Brain Outy (42 / 186)

To save you time, here again are the links to the latest versions of the Matt24-25 text and the anaphora tester: Matt24-25ParsedR5.pdf and AmenAnaphoraR.xls. The xls works in Excel/Word2003 and prior, as well. Old WordPerfect should be able to handle it.

• Purpose of the xls is manifold:
1. test DELIBERATENESS of the distances between anaphora occurrences as a way to verify we counted syllables correctly,
2. test DELIBERATENESS of the MEANING of the distances, as in Bible even syllable counts have vital doctrinal meanings designed to interact with and hence elucidate, the text.
3. FIND THE NEXUS, the key to why the anaphora have those distances. The nexus will always be the middle anaphora in a series. Here, it's 1570-1640 AD, which is the English Reformation and the 2nd official historical 70-year voting period, post-Cross. The period is a sudden-death round: if not enough are positive to Bible, Time ends. Its precedent is the Flood (120=50+70).
• So you'll need the map of Time per BIBLE (not stars or errant scholars who use lunar years tho Bible only uses solar): GeneYrs.xls and its verse list plus calcs post Gen5, brainoutFAQ.htm#6a. The math is intense, but not complex. Fifth grader could do it.
• Video explainer channel, http://www.vimeo.com/channels/howgodorchestratestime

I think I get the meaning of the Matt24 anaphora differentials in relation to the text, specifically with reference to how 'our' anaphora for 2030, will play. The idea is to know the future from the past, so that was the issue: what past is tied together, to tell us what future? To know that, you have to establish the THEMES:

• How Daniel 9's '62nd week' will stretch out FOR CHURCH, given Christ will die at the start of it, 7 years EARLY.
• Where Daniel 2's Man of Time will 'fit', in light of Daniel 10-12, relative to this new 'deathbed blessing' of prophecy through 3250AD (both Matt24-25 being one chapter in the meter and in Greek).
• Who are the potential 'people of the ruler to come' at the end of Dan9:26, since the Roman Model of Government is already tagged from Temple Down forward (and there are two Romes in the future, 2nd being Constantine's in what is now called Istanbul). That question will inform the entire text, esp. cuz all governments ended up adopting the Roman Model from Christ onward. There is not a constitution on earth today, which isn't based on that model. So ANY COUNTRY can become the country where the Gentile Anti-Christ rises.. except Israel.
• Hence, WHERE the Gentile Antichrist will be, in any given time, since Rapture is unpredictable.
• Major update to Daniel is that CHURCH will be the seed of the Gentile AntiChrist, which of course Rev17 will later reveal in more detail. So ~
• BIBLE LEARNING is traced, since Satan will try to turn that country/countries into the seed source, again given what we'll later know from Rev17 is CHURCH. Like Thieme said circa Lesson 800 in Series 376 Spiritual Dynamics when covering Matt4, 'Satan always plays to strength', so he tempted Christ based on His Strengths. Same, for His Kids.

So the themes above constitute a geographical tour over time, with the King of the North, having been defined since Daniel 2 as first Babylon, then Persia, then Greece and then 'Rome', moves progressively westward. So too, did Bible interest, esp. after Temple Down.

So as it stands now, were the Rapture to occur in January 21 et seq., the Gentile anti-christ would be Trump, if he's not saved.

Interlinked are the same historical trends that run in 490 and 1000-year cycles, as I tried to summarize here: b-out God Orchestrates Time: Pass the Salt, Bypass the Flood!

Because, if those deadlines aren't met, Time can still end just as was the rule pre-Church.. and maybe there is no Rapture.

Now we get technical. The anaphora benchmarks critical times which include all of the above themes. Looks like the clause just before amen legw humin is used to explain the nature of the time. As each of these anaphora passes, we can more easily look back at history to forecast the meaning of the next amen legw humin meaning. So for us, there have already been THREE occurrences:

After all, maybe believers would mature anyway, so the 'old schedule' would still be met in time. We know it wasn't, but it could have been, and Christ is speaking 57 years before it happens (haha, 57 days from Passover Start to Pentecost).

So we have really a trilogy, as Luke 21 maps the same syllables exactly:

➡️ 40=70AD, Temple Down, matched to Matt24:1 with the disciples drooling over the BUILDING rather than the BUILDER Who is LEAVING THE BUILDING (hahaha, considering 40 is used in syll count).

➡️ 49(dateline)=79AD, Titus who took the Temple Down, goes up as Emperor and Pompeii goes down (Romans were very superstitious, they'd interpret that as a bad omen for Titus).

➡️ 57=87AD, will end up being called Domitian's Terror (against JEWS, tho Christians were lumped in as Jews, hated cuz their non-willingness to pay obeisance to Emperors and Rome's gods, was considered unpatriotic).

Not fully sure that the above purple descriptions are apt, using them for now. In Domitian's Terror, really the focus was on how to steal your money. The guy was constantly broke. So if you didn't pay your Jewish tax, or if you had so much money it was more profitable to accuse you of being impious (atheist, not serving Rome's gods or deified Emperor, esp. Domitian) -- then you would be stripped of your property, if noble/famous BANISHED (hence John to Patmos). Or, sometimes killed. That being what Domitian did to the senators and other high-born at Rome and partly because Jews converted a lot of the high-born, obviously elsewhere in the empire it was politick to do the same, even absent any Imperial Mandate (of which we find none).

So persecution has that pecuniary flavor to it. Else more or less don't ask, don't tell as Trajan would later tell Pliny.

So now look how apt, Matt24:2c (first occurrence of the anaphora), d: ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν (2nd dateline, again 30AD,syll count 63 meaning yrs pre‐Mill had there been no Church), 'believe it when I tell you'

Luke 21:6 'covers' the anaphora with καταλυθήσεται, in order to also end at 63 syllables, sure sign Luke is MAPPING to Matt24:2c,d while he writes.

Cuz Matt24:2d uses the same term,
οὐ μὴ ἀφεθῇ ὧδε λίθος ἐπὶ λίθον ὃς οὐ καταλυθήσεται 'not one stone will be left upon another'. Which of course ends at syll 84=114AD, just in time for the rebellion to start in Libya over the Temple NOT being rebuilt, inter alia.

Since the 63 takes us forward to the end of what was supposed to be Israel's history and the beginning of the Mill absent Church (Trib completes), now we know why Rev 11 mocks whatever structure is there, God telling John to use a 'reed' not a rod (for measuring a foundation PRIOR TO BUILDING, so if Dome/other structure is there, it's treated as non-existent).

So no, unlike some who claimed to have studied under Thieme, the Bible NEVER authorizes the Temple to be rebuilt.

But oh, Abominations will be attempted, and regularly!

Israel started wanting to replace the Temple, see, and even rebelled (as you well know) 115-117 AD, when Trajan died (first eta in thelematos in Eph1:5), and Hadrian who'd come to hate the Jews, took over. He said no, the Jews kept rebelling, so presto chango we have Matt24:3's sardonic meter for Bar Kochba rebellion in 132-135; resulting by 140 AD and after Hadrian's death.. in Aeolia Capitolina, with a pig temple atop the Temple Mount. Just like under Antiochus IV Epiphanes, about 44 sevens prior.

490 years after Antiochus, would be Constantine creating the first unity of church and state, 325 AD, Matt24:9 syll clause ending 295, Τότε παραδώσουσιν ὑμᾶς εἰς θλῖψιν, 'Then they will deliver you over to 'tribulation', which is exactly what happened as a result of the Council of Nicaea. Laws here. There were plans to rebuild the Temple or put something else 'Christian' atop it, as the pig temple was in disrepair; but nothing I can find, actually happened.

I'm newly convinced that Rev17:10's 7th king is patterned like the King of the North in Daniel 11, where actually a series of kings is depicted, ending with Antiochus IV in Dan11:34, and then as PARALLEL the final real KON in 11:35 et seq (or 36, with 35 as changeover in parallelism), is the one for the Trib. Similarly, since even by Domitian's day more than 5 Roman Emperors had lived, the angel is selecting five as prototypes, with Domitian (esp. as he was then persecuting to get money) as the current proto.. and the future 7th one would START with Constantine, who himself is the prototype of the final KON.

I remember you and some others interpret the five to be past big empires. That would fit, too. Big isn't necessarily territory, but can be influence. The final 10-nation confederacy is.. who knows. Tradition assigns it to the same geography as SPQR, but in what year and extent? It reached its largest extent under Trajan, and shrank after that, with a brief resurgence in size under Justin or Justinian, I forget which. Then what about the Holy Roman Empire? In short, which Roman-style governance is in view? And why do we ASSume it must cover the same territory as ancient Rome, esp. since Constantine moved the territory capital, EAST?

Rome pretty much split after he died, between his sons warring, and those who succeeded them.

So that's why the 8th is the beast itself, since the real Constantine will be dead, but started the dangerous precedent, today reflected in the 'Seven Mountains' movement of jerks surrounding Donald Trump (of whom Ted Cruz' dad, James Dobson and other big names, are big in that movement).

The seven mountains were literally rebuilt by Constantine in what he called New Rome, which today we call Istanbul.

This Rev17 connection, obviously sourced here in Matt24, thus explains a prelude, since the intertwining rules of the 490 and 1000 qualifying periods, might undo the whole timeline if not met. This is where we get the Matt24:1 war related to Jerusalem, full circle. Text denoting that 490:

Matt24:15 Ὅταν οὖν ἴδητε τὸ βδέλυγμα τῆς ἐρημώσεως 'When you see the Desolating Abomination'*
τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Δανιὴλ τοῦ προφήτου ἑστὸς ἐν τόπῳ ἁγίῳ 'spoken of via Daniel, in the Holy Place' =490=520AD.

What Abomination was that? Oh, the newly-appointed Elias (!) bishop of Jerusalem wanted to construct a temple atop the Temple Mount, to MARY. Not, to Christ. Can't be more Abominating than that, huh. But the poor guy couldn't get the money until a few years later when Justinian gave him some, and the Nea Theotokos was built over the next 20 years or so.

Aha. So by the next time we see amen legw humin, we'll know what to expect. Which is where the anaphora takes us, next.

Well, what preceded that? The 1000 qualifier deadline, which was our 1030 AD. That was marked by Matt24:31, καὶ ἀποστελεῖ τοὺς ἀγγέλους αὐτοῦ μετὰ σάλπιγγος μεγάλης, 'Then He sends his angels with trumpet'(blowing, cut mid-word), the whole clause ending at 1004. Bolded section is at 1000=1030 AD.

What about that time? Well, first the Byzantines and Persians fight over the area so much they exhaust themselves by 630; just in time, cuz Mohammed baby dies in 630, his Muslims overrun Jerusalem, take over the now-derelict, Temple Mount. The bishops didn't keep it up, felt it was meant to be a desolation (pleased their rampant anti-semitism); weren't even sure where the Temple Mount was; conquering Umar baby found it via a dream he had, built the Dome of the Rock over it.

After that, well it was in the hands of the Arabs until the Christians took it upon themselves to rebel, the Arabs beat them off, Byzantium now really full of itself, intervenes. In 1030 there's a treaty with the Arabs, and churches are rebuilt.. but not that one. So by the end of first 1000 after the Lord's death, The Temple The Temple Depicted is still Abominated under a Dome.

But not for long. There's a back and forth with the Arabs fighting the Byzantines, which prompts the latter's loss and its Emperor's death, with Arab takeover of Jeru again in 1073, followed by the 1st Crusade.

By the time the 1082=1112 AD clause ends, Jeru will be back under control by the first King of Jerusalem, Baldwin I. He has the thing reconverted into a Byzantine Church. So still an Abomination, under a different name with a paint job. So how did Christ satirize that?

Matt24:32 is the 1082=1112 clause, text reads: γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγὺς τὸ θέρος· 'Know that summer is next.' Yeah, fig tree = Israel changes hands again, put out the leaves so war put it out, new master paints over the Rock of Their Salvation, mindless except that it beats the Muslims.

Oh, and by the way: Jews can't enter.

And that is how it remains. Strongest apocalyptic language covers this period from 905-1030 AD, in Matt24:29-30; so the analogy is to the final Armageddon battle, Zech 14. Historically it's the period of Abbasid versus Fatimid wars with Byzantium interfering off and on, causing (eventually) the Crusades. Jews are endlessly persecuted, and under the Fatimids, even Christians are as well. REALLY BAD TIME to be in the Levant.

💡 Now the plot thickens a lot. 💡 We've been focusing on Jerusalem, how the first and second anaphora PREVIOUS clauses, focus on Israel, the Abomination, Daniel, etc. But what about the other themes, like .. Bible learning?

That's where the second anaphora threads to highlight; for by syll 1110=1140AD=Matt24:33, the quintessential Lord-coming-to-you 'DOOR' analogy is used. It will matter a lot when we go to the next anaphora, so it's mentioned here. Door, coming to you, opening.. what? His Head in your head, fellowship, supping with you, as Rev 3 will warn. You can't learn if in a state of sin, so no fellowship and discipline instead knocks at the door. So what do you want the door of your volition to 'open'? Dinner, or Discipline?

By 1140AD, many monasteries wanted lots of Dinner. Hundreds had arisen in the West, and at this point a Cistercian had just been made Pope. His sect of monks had made Bible teaching (though bad), esp. in Britain (the star of the anaphora story, next stop).. had become common. Many Bibles copied over and over by hand, a certain amount of freedom from persecution for the Jews, so we had complete texts routinely copied by the third century or so, with Jerome's famous original Hebrew finds, verifying the text.

In the 500's you had missionary activity as well, and the monks flourished wherever the missionaries went. They had various names, often Benedictine, Cluny, finally Cistercian.. and all three of these would corrupt within a generation or three, followed up by some fresh new austere group. They made beer, wine, did carpentry, husbanding of livestock or vegetables, as well as copying Scripture, and were an important part of each local economy. They taught, and no matter how badly, they chanted and memorized and the local people got all that text HEARD.

By 500, remember, the seeds of modern Europe were forming under Clovis and his progeny, to be followed up by the repulse of those same Muslims trying to get into France.. Battle of Tours and Charles the Hammer (Martel), gave France and upper Europe a breather. That gave rise to the Carolingians, and under Charlesmagne Bible learning was a thing pan-realm. Again, poorly taught but well copied and changed, memorized, even the script and mechanism of making a Bible copy, more efficient. Which led to more monasteries: handy way to seem pious yet be independent of Rome. Finally, it led to outright political clashes with Rome, and the tables turned, with the Carolingians saving the Papacy against the Lombards: clever thing, since the Papacy wanted to worm its way into Charlesmagne by crowning him some years prior, now dependent ON him and his strange kiddies.

All this Gallic change wafted its way in all directions, and especially in England, where the Cistercians had huge influence, i.e., that first Cistercian pope (I forget his name) who due to the above-mentioned political clashes, spent most of his life outside Rome, homeless. Bible learning thus flourished with that independence from the See.

By 1054, the schism between East and West religiously, had formed well enough for both versions of institutional Christianity to go their separate ways. Christ traces it WESTWARD, not eastward. Again, we know because at 1110=1140, focus is on that Cistercian Pope and the whole order.

And we know even more, when we trace the Bible interest thread from 500 AD forward. Importantly, there is a 'parousia' anaphora triad, as well (=Appearing, 2nd Coming) which I didn't notice until Thanksgiving, and it enlightens the entire meaning of the amen legw humin anaphora.

This parousia anaphora is only in Matt24 (not elsewhere in Matt, nor even in Luke 21), in verses 4 (apostle question), 27, 37, 39. Syllable counts are 138, 833, 1225, and 1309, respectively. The center is thus 1225.

Map of the time: https://twitter.com/brainouty/status/801755293545885698

What's really interesting about the 1225=1255 AD period, is that two counter-trends are occurring: 1) LEARNING BIBLE is popular, for itself, and is conveyed mostly by itinerant Dominican and Franciscan friars, all over Europe and Russia, even China (for back in the late 800's Bible was converted to what became a common script we now call Cyrillic). 2) 'Picture Bibles' became popular among the nobility, especially Apocalypse cuz -- get this -- everyone expected His APPEARANCE (parousia) by 1260 AD, based on a wild misreading of Daniel 12. Once that year came and went, no one wanted the Picture Bibles anymore. In short: when Revelation didn't meet their drooling expectations, they STOPPED LEARNING, and never learned its real meaning. Sound familiar?

So God will have to judge that. Look at the text in the above verses, k? It's apocalyptic, and presages the Black Death.

Source text, Chapters 5 (on making Bibles popular cuz making them portable for friars) and 6 (on Picture Bibles) of The Book: A History of the Bible Hardcover – September 25, 2001 by Christopher De Hamel

Antisemitism was rife. The Picture Bibles were loaded with it (book shows the illustrations of some typical for the period). The Crusades were on again (antisemitism helped fuel them or vice versa), Crusades: 13th century

So the common people were actually getting Bible in their own languages, the friars translating as they repeated and taught; but the nobility were getting PICTURES (presumably cuz they knew the text already or didn't care). See the problem?

Of course, the Crusades would bring back plague: Black Plague from 1347 et seq. really never went away, even isolated cases still occur today. But that first one hit Europe the hardest, wiping out maybe 50% of the people.

So that's your setup prior to and obviously a baptism of fire (Matt24:39ff, remember you had to burn the bodies for Black Death) for THIRD amen legw humin anaphora, occurring precisely at the 1050+490 mark next, our 1570-1640 AD, which to historians is known as the English Reformation.

It's clear from the history of the parties involved in triggering this Reformation, that GOD orchestrated the whole thing by means of just-right births and deaths of: John Knox, the cardinal he was falsely accused of killing, Mary of Guise, Mary Queen of Scots and her husbands, Henry VIII's LACK of male births and his death, Edward VI, Mary I, Elizabeth I, James VI. Someone needs to do a movie on this. Movie can leave out the 'God orchestration' theme, it will be clear enough just to show confluence of the DATES. If I live long enough, maybe I'll get hupostasis to help me write a book...

This is the third and only anaphora occurrence which isn't a judgment against the object. Rather, it is praise. It occurs precisely during the 2nd voting period after Christ's death (1050+490). That year, 1570, the Pope put out a death warrant for Elizabeth I, who miraculously held her nation together and made it independent of the Papacy at the same time. Her dad Henry had a lot to do with that, confiscating Church lands when Rome wouldn't give him the divorces he wanted, and declaring himself the head of a new, wholly ENGLISH, 'Anglican' church. That independence from Rome shoulda killed him and his dynasty, but didn't. Was it because Elizabeth might marry? She knew how to read Bible in Hebrew and Greek and Latin, so maybe she remembered how Hatshepsut did it. The Kingdom remained at times shaky, but still in her hands, thanks also to Walsingham, I'm sure.

She sure held out the promise of maybe marrying some Catholic, or what about a Protestant (of whom there were none, but the European Reformation started 53 years prior, when Jeru had been taken yet again by the Ottomans).

As time passed and she forged new wholly-nationalistic links with the clerics, they came to realize maybe independence from Rome was helpful after all. Wasn't easy, but so long as she was unmarried, excuses could be made. So, she stayed unmarried. So, eventually her troubles with Mary Queen of Scots would nearly undo the kingdom, but what ho, James was taught by John Knox and became Protestant, so... he'd end up her heir, and England would stay independent.

So now we see the geographic shift is now England. Due to whom, there would soon become, a United States.

When a Bible timeline uses anaphora, the point is to show big-event cause and effect. The center anaphora is the key goal from which all else comes. In Ephesians 1:3-14, Paul would employ three sets of anaphora, and they all centered on the yet-future 'Constantine. I learned that passage before even knowing Matt24 was a timeline, so when seeing it here the calculations and meaning are much easier to spot. In Ephesians, there are so many measures all centering on Constantine it was more painstaking, but the meaning is the same. There, the idea was to show how Church would become apostate. Turns out Paul maps his text to Matt24, and gets his use of the anaphora from it.

Whereas Paul's focus was just the Roman empire and the effect of Church going saltless (no Bible interest), the 'parent' text here in Matt24-25, is global as noted at the beginning of this post: GLOBAL salt movements and how the Gentile anti-Christ is most potential in the nation best given BIBLE.

Ouch.

So at this point, how did we go from Europe to England? Well, the Cistercians were key. They started in France, multiplied in England, Wales, Ireland, Scotland. By the 1200's or so they'd go corrupt, as monasteries always do.. but while they lasted much Bible copying and learning had been done. By Henry's separation from the Papacy, they ended.

In between, there was the other 1378 Schism, then Constantinople overrun in 1453, coupled with Gutenberg's Bible, which really kicked off the process we today call the Reformation. Independent printing, no longer beholden to religious institutions, wow. Much cheaper now, even a middle class family could order one, or a bunch of families could save up and jointly own a copy.

That copy would change in size from great to small, the idea being itinerant monks needed the smaller size and the populus would save money on it. At the same time many more manuscripts were becoming available to check and translate into many vernaculars, what with the Papacy being so much weaker or disinclined to prosecute its monopoly on authorized translations.

Thus conflict over religion would ensue, and with it, missionary activity coupled with world exploration. For wars cost money, populations need food, so maybe by travelling an enterprising explorer could bring wealth to himself and his country.

So in 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue.. and didn't exactly end up in America, but did set the precedent. So by the time UNMARRIED Elizabeth I comes to reign, there's a rich Spain or France or some princes farther east who would woo her with gains from the ever-growing colonies. But ho, the prosperity growing in England over all that Bible teaching from the newly-emergent Calvinists and neo-Anglicans meant she started to have money too (seek ye first the kingdom of God)... so out goes Drake, in comes goods from the New World, and she can go toe-to-toe with even a Spanish Armada, meanwhile establishing routes and even colonies of her own.

Whew. And to flee all that religious strife, my ancestors would get on a boat and find refuge. One Catholic, one Protestant. Your relatives too, really. We all came from there, whether slave or free, at first. The European continent's interest in Bible quickly stultified into political wars, but those just wanting to learn it privately, packed up their Bibles and few goods.. and sailed the ocean blue.

• For AMERICA, was the new EXODUS: by 1780 it would become a nation of its own, exactly 3220 years -- the length of Matt24-25 in syllable counts -- after that initial Exodus.
  
  America still is the world's Exodus. Pity today's white nationalists, ALL OF THEM INITIALLY IMMIGRANTS, just like that initial Exodus generation of ALL COLORS had been.. but who never learn Bible.

You know the rest: American colonies form while Europe keeps fighting its religious wars, culminating in the War of the Austrian Succession, when Matthew 25 begins, with its split 50/50 wise and foolish virgins. Wise, if learning Bible; foolish, if not. All because of the English Reformation.

From there, the continuing wars make even England's George III starve for funds, so now we the colonies are oppressed, so we revolt. And that's our formation, 1776 to 1789, Matt25:3, leaving the foolish virgins without oil, to finish their wars.. on the Continent.

Of course, we newly-minted 'Americans' quickly became foolish, too. And weirdly, for who didn't know the story about Jacob and Joseph? Jacob's 'slavery' was INDENTURE, but Joseph's was via KIDNAPPING, so the latter ORIGIN to being a 'slave' was outlawed, in Exodus (21:16). Anyone bought for whatever reason had to be freed if he believed in Christ, same law in same book; thus Paul argued for freeing Onesimus, even tho he stole from Philemon (v.10). And aren't all of us slaves to Christ? By CONTRACT, since we BELIEVED?

Yet within 100 years America would 50/50 split too, and fight the Civil War over this. In many ways, most poignantly demonstrated in the 2016 election.. civil war, continues. Of course by now, Bible interest is at an all-time high but in a very small portion of the population.

So now we come to our next and ~

Ouch. That's the Roman practice of disowning. You're the kid, you disobeyed, you ran away; you come home and your own father won't even allow you in the door, claiming you a stranger tho clearly you are not.

We've already seen what happens when God has to answer. He answered Job out of the tornado, Hosea invokes it in his own Chapter 4. My people perish for lack of truth knowledge. So that turning-away means Divine Judgment, and since jurisprudence is always based on precedent, we've had three anaphora precedents to understand this future.

It's not good. We disown God when we argue against immigration and free trade, as both were core to Israel's BIRTH and hence the Mosaic Law. That's why some forms of what we call 'slavery' were legal, as they were based on FREE CONSENT TRANSACTIONS. The slave could even refuse to go free (see 1st half of Exodus). All the world's slavery practices at the time Israel was born were thus not outlawed, but once an Israeli TRADED using those practices, new laws applied, whether the Israeli was a believer or not, a citizen or not.

The world quickly took notice, since Israel got all its money from TRADE, and was deliberately chosen by God to be the nexus of three continents so anyone could IMMIGRATE there and get Bible directly. So slavery laws around the world started to change to conform to that little country's weird God's laws. And the world, gradually civilized.

Today, there's not a constitution on the planet which isn't based on the Mosaic Law. But the Exodus Country of America would rescind it all, voting in a vile, defrauding, cheating, lying, immoral, ignorant man who got elected based on promising to rescind it all?

What do you think God must 'answer'? NOT GOOD.

Last edited by brainout on 25 Nov 2016, 17:01, edited 14 times in total. Adding text on the newly-found 'parousia' anaphora

brainout | 25 Nov 2016, 01:16

Important: CNTTS apparatus in Bibleworks 9 adds 'hos gar' in front of hotan in Matt24:32. The ms is called '700', and is 11th century, Aland Category III. It's the only witness, but that was also true for tois ethnesin in Jude, so I wouldn't rule it out. Although in the same speech Christ uses hos.gar, to put both here doesn't make sense; yet gar alone still makes sense as post-positive to hotan. One of the variants lists it, but only in one 9th century ms named 'theta'.

Several manuscripts add estin but the question is which place, before or after theros.

THAT COULD CHANGE EVERYTHING by 3 years. Would be hard to prove, tho.

Would only change THAT verse. the 1110 becomes 1113 as it keeps on wanting to be, and of course 1082 becomes 1085, matching Luke 21.

So where to subtract 3 syllables after? Dunno yet. Can treat Noah as one syll each, and then in verse 43c, can cut a syllable from either εἴασεν OR διορυχθῆναι, probably the latter.

brainout | 14 Dec 2016, 16:05

Okay, there's so much evidence of the meaning of each clause in Matt24-25 that I'm just gonna make single entries for relevant clauses and their backup data, as I find them. The backup data will largely be from Wiki, only cuz they usually have a bibliography at the bottom. Do your own research.

Here, we're looking at the pivotal period of Charlesmagne and his kiddies, Matt 24:27, the first instance of the parousia anaphora, which I'm trying to track.

The numbers after the phrases are syllable counts, still using Matt24-25ParsedR5.pdf. That's the latest revision. More revision is needed, but I'll not do it until I'm sure what else extra anaphora do.

What's significant here:

• Charlesmagne, who had been ruling the Franks since 1768, is as a consequence of helping the Pope defeat the Lombards, crowned 1st Holy Roman Emperor in 800 (-30, to get same year in the meter). He dies 14 years later.
• Louis the German, an heir, conquers Moravia in 846 (816 in the meter), and as a consequence orders their Christianisation. The guy he puts in to do that, is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastislav_of_Moravia. I can't find the ref which said the Christianization started in 847 (817 in the meter), right now. But you can see from that link that by 863 (833 in the meter), our boy Rots got Cyril and Methodius there; THEY TRANSLATED BIBLE into a new alphabet they created so the Moravians could read it.
• THIS WOULD GIVE BIRTH TO THE EVANGELIZATION OF THE SLAVS, and eventually the Rus adoption of Christianity. So it's a big deal, and fundamental to tracing what happened to Byzantium after it effectively died.

Of immediate importance besides the Bible going out, was the fact that Rots would later rebel against Louis the German amidst a theological controversy known as the Photian schism (link below). Thus the takeover of Moravia would become the instrument whereby the final split called the Great Schism in 1054, satirized in Matt24:31b as collecting the elect.. would occur.

So look: by this point the Latins didn't know Greek and the Greeks didn't know Latin, and they hated each other. But those POSITIVE TO BIBLE would need the Greek and even Hebrew mss (tho Charlesmagne and his kiddies fostered learning them all, briefly), so this conflict would have people changing sides. So those defecting to the Latin side would bring their Greek texts, and vice versa. So the TEXTS end up being COLLECTED, get the pun in v.31, which has three clauses (ending 1034, 1055, 1066 AD respectively)?

For the theme of these Matt chaps is Christ tracing the 'salt' future rise and fall of Bible interest, distribution, freedom. Here, 'parousia' (Appearing) is metaphor, since BIBLE is appearing to people who never saw it before.

I don't yet know how parousia anaphora relate to amen legw humin clauses.

Related links:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravia
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photian_schism
• The Historians' History of the World: A Comprehensive Narrative of the Rise and Development of Nations as Recorded by Over Two Thousand of the Great Writers of All Ages, Volume 11

brainout | 14 Dec 2016, 17:17

As for the kurios keyword reference (Christ uses specialized names for Himself in paragraphs), which run from Matt24:42-50, all these refs appear to be of BIBLE TRANSLATIONS undertaken by reformers, thread list: [twitter thread deleted]

Bible editions: Historical Catalogue of the Printed Editions of Holy Scripture in the Library of the British and Foreign Bible Society: English (free download)

Chronological History of the Bible - 17th Century

The Matt25 kurios refs are POVs, with numphios maybe replacing THE Lord in Matt24. Not sure, needs more testing. Obviously can have significance of one falsely calling Lord someone NOT 'the' Lord.

Refs are in Matt25:11, 18-20, 22-24, 37, 44. The last two have JSC and GWTJ language.

IF each kurios ref means Bible disseminated via translation or mss, then there seems to be a massive upgrade coming after our generation, given the above refs. Implication is that nations outside the US and Europe, who are the centers for the mss, will then become interested in them. I do know that there are many missionary societies today who are busy translating the Bible into the tongues of small isolated groups (search on Tyndale in vimeo for their vids on this).

brainout | 16 Dec 2016, 13:44

By contrast, the παρουσίας references, which start in Matt24:3, seem to talk about when folks ENCOUNTER missionaries and convert. So He 'appears' to them via the missionaries, they learn the doctrines enough to convert (even if often for secular reasons or monetary gain).

• Really important: this accounts for why the distances between parousia clauses always seven. I didn't notice that when we parsed through revision 5, but I did notice that the sevening was out of place, not at the end of a paragraph as is normal in Bible meter I've found so far. So I thought I miscounted the syllables. But now that I see EVERY parousia clause is a seven-factor distant from the prior and next one, it means the distances are deliberate, no matter whether they end the paragraph textually.. or not.
  
  The other implication is that I didn't think to make parousia follow the YA sound, so it's always counted at four syllables. So then maybe my YA assumptions for sound on similar endings, is wrong. Will have to revisit. For how else can I explain the consistent sevening of parousia clauses I didn't want to see sevened?
  
  Finally, note how clever: Christ's theme throughout is you don't know when He's coming back, and He will SUDDENLY INTERRUPT when He does, and it will be OBVIOUS when He does. So, He uses the imminency of Rapture (and hence 2nd Advent, in that you can't know when Trib STARTS).. to piggyback on the sudden appearance of MISSIONARIES and BIBLE TEACHERS and BIBLE to a person/people. So that's why the parousia clauses don't come neatly at the end of a paragraph, yet seven.
  
  So if we've erred in counting syllables, the error is dual: one word is over counted and another, under counted. BETWEEN the sevens. Handy way to know how to audit the text and fix our elision assumptions!

That first Matt24:3 ref is by the apostles to Christ, so that's your big clue that parousia will be analogized to Word Represented. Next time the term shows up is in Matt24:27, followed by 37, 39.

Closely related and embedded, tho, is the expression ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου. which is in the above verses and Matt24:30, 44. I don't know how to interpret its embedding.

What I do know, is that Matt24:27-30 are periods of intense Viking migration and conversion, including the first time (847ff) that Bible is translated into a new alphabet for Moravia. This led to the Christianisation of the Rus, who are also a Viking related people as well as the seemingly-already-established, Slavs.

Matt24:27 covers 823 (subtract 30 for the meter benchmark) through 863; with 847, being when Louis the German conquered Moravia and then Cyril et Methodius created the alphabet for translating Vulgate into Moravian.

• Luke 21:27 maps to Matt24:26 at 780, using ho huios tou anthropou starting at Luke's syll 756 (which is divisible by 7, lol). Luke will use the phrase again in his last verse, 36, ending at 1085, which of course also sevens back to the phrase at both ends of his verse 27. Cute: 1085-7=1078, the syll count including ellipses, in Isaiah 53. So now I really suspect Matt24:32 should end at 1085, not 1082 unless Luke is adjusting for Varro's error.
  
  Not only that, but he creates a biting commentary on how the believers were NOT listening to Christ. Cuz, the Daniel 7:13 meaning is not only savior, but Judge...
  
  Match the syllables to each other as you read.
  
  Matt24:26 sylls 751-780
  ἰδοὺ προείρηκα ὑμῖν. 8 758
  26 ἐὰν οὖν εἴπωσιν ὑμῖν· 8 766
  ἰδοὺ ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ ἐστίν, μὴ ἐξέλθητε 14 780
  
  Luke 21:27 sylls 751-780
  [kai] τότε ὄψονται τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐρχόμενον ἐν νεφέλῃ μετὰ δυνάμεως καὶ δόξης πολλῆς. 31 780
  
  Which is a concatenation of what Christ says in Matt 24:30. QUOTING MATT. So bookends EARLIER to 24:26.
  
  That's not all. Matt24:32, sylls 1072-1082 read
  γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγὺς τὸ θέρος
  Luke 1:36, end, same sylls+3, read
  καὶ σταθῆναι ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου.
  
  Cute, huh.

Matt24:30 covers 945 to 1015, when most of the stuff I've read on Viking conversions, occurs. This is the period of Erik the Red; 988 is called 'the baptism of the Rus'. This is deemed start of Kievian Rus as a polity, tho its people started converting in the Matt24:27 period as a result of the Bible being in a language they could read. It is also a period of extensive monastic reform that had significant teaching and economic impact wherever it expanded.

What's distinctive of this period is the independence from the Church. Given the new monastic separation (beholding only to the Pope, which meant autonomous), it's easy to see how that independent style would attract plunder, yet also endear the Vikings, whose political culture was much more familial so independent so federal, therefore the idea of some all-ruling pope never caught on. How ironic.

Then again, if you wanted Bible but didn't like the Papist trappings, retreat to a monastery was THE ONLY way to get what you wanted.

But the later ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου refs don't seem to focus on them, but back to Europe?

Matt24:37 spans 1229-1255, a period of those little Paris/Italy Bibles being so popularly used by the many itinerant friars of the Dominicans and Franciscans of the period, as noted in DeHamel's book. People were well enough acquainted with Bible to misread Daniel 12 on the 1260, so they were expecting the world to end in that YEAR.

One big reason they WERE acquainted, was the sack of Constantinople in 1204; its massive library was sacked and taken back to Rome, who with Paris had long exchanged Bible mss between their universities. So the mss the East had, came to the West, who ransacked the Greeks passim ever since the Great Schism of 1054.

With the Mongol hordes still invading Russia and Eastern Europe (finally stopped at Warsaw I think, in 1294), and with the last Crusades going on (which stopped in the Middle East in 1291), it's easy to see how they would misinterpret Daniel 12. But the point is, they were familiar enough with the Bible TO misread it. As DeHamel records, they lost interest in Bible when the expected 2nd coming (clever, given how 37b reads) .. didn't happen. So they didn't want Christ His Word, but a thrill. Picture Bibles were also developed during that time, to help speed comprehension, and fell out of vogue after 1260 (ibid).

Next, is Matt24:39, which spans from 1305-1339, and is a warning. 1315-1317 was the Great Famine period, which (see wry context of the verse re Noah) was caused by TOO MUCH RAIN. The harvests wouldn't dry, so no fodder for animals nor food for man. It would keep on repeating in short bursts from this time onward. The Medieval Warm Period was ending also, meaning it was now too cold for crops to grow well, too. Leviticus 26, Deut28 warnings, then. For folks HAD those small Bibles, KNEW enough of what was in them to MISREAD Daniel 12.. and didn't grow spiritually. They had from 1170 when those Bibles first started coming out of Paris and going to the intinerant monks, so that's 4 generations...

Matt24:44 could be broken up into clauses, but I didn't. Spans 1463-1495. It's a closing lesson: for this reason you should LEARN, make ready: as you can't calculate the hour, when the Son of Man comes.

So did they? No. They turned the crusades inward from 1291 onward, picking rich pockets of Jews or others by calling them heretics. The Popes offered indulgences now for anyone who went after someone deemed a heretic, INSIDE one's country, or in a neighbor's. But by this time we had Gutenberg's method of printing, which rapidly became popular for all books; prior, we had the Italian Renaissance which began when Hus was just learning about Wycliffe, thus famous, his translations out and hoarded, as were Wycliffe's; there were a few other translations. The mss had come out a bit owing to the folks fleeing from the Middle East from the Crusades, especially in 1204 when the Latin Crusaders sacked Constantinople. So 'making ready' was thus done by some, and the idea of rejecting the RCC was widespread by many.

Meanwhile, Constantinople had been definitively ended as a 'Christian' location, its Byzantine Empire by then shrunk to a few small spaces; now, since 1453 (same year as Gutenberg started his first printing but not yet published), the erstwhile New Rome (name Constantine gave it).. was finally under the Ottomans. So only the WEST remained, as a major place you could find Bible.

But the West, was in various stages of war, both civil and international. 1469 saw the renewal of who's-the-rightful-king-of-France, so the Hundred Years' war which allegedly started in 1337, didn't end 100 years later. You had rival popes, which started in the West really a bit before the official 1378 'Great (or 'Western') Schism', between Avignon and Rome. You had civil wars within the countries owing to these greater competitions, with groups of people picking one side or the other. Of course, the Black Death would resurface again and again in smaller sections, notably leaving OUT, most of Poland, Milan, Pyrenees.

But you also had renewed interest in the Hebrew, Greek, and translations. Lorenzo Valla of Italy, shortly before he died, compiled Greek mss he called Collatio Novo Testamenti, in it seems 1442, which Erasmus would later use. The Jews were expelled from England in 1290, so went to the continent where they had successive expulsions from France (of course, Henry called himself King of Normandy even then), in 1305 and following. So the Jews went to Spain and Portugal, who finally threw off the Arab yoke and shortly thereafter expelled the Jews too. But meanwhile, the Jews brought their OT in Hebrew with them, and so the West had access. After each expulsion, the area expelling plunged into internal 'crusades', civil war, and declined economically. The Jews finally found a more permanent home in Poland and Milan, just in time for the Black Death. So one could vote with his feet to find Bible.

Missionary activity went seaward during this time. Gold and God, in that order. So in that sense, the prior meanings we saw for the Vikings of ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, but this time in Matt24:44.. now continue with the mostly Spanish and Portuguese, sailing outward.

So are you surprised that v.44's ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ends at syll 1462 aka 1492 AD? In 1492, Columbo sailed the ocean blue.. maybe with a newly-minted copy of the Hebrew text, just then being published in Lisbon and Italy.

Oh: and the syll distance between the NEXT syll and the syll just BEFORE the ho kurios in Matt24:45 is (drum roll please).. 21! Divisible by seven! And of course THAT ho kurios is.. the Reformation.

So now we see two key facts relative to historical prosperity/adversity:

1. If you want Bible, you want to favor the Jews, if only for the selfish reason they have at least initially, more knowledge of the Hebrew.
2. If you want Bible, you want to learn to read. In fact, most folks even through the 20th century learned how to read, from learning Bible (i.e., even in the Dust Bowl they learned to read from KJV and from Sears Catalogue).

So notice: if you want Bible, you find someone who has one and can read it, and essentially contract with them formally or informally, to learn to read it yourself. That makes you a better worker, as you're motivated; that makes you a more valuable employee especially once you learn to read; so you get promoted. God promotes what you're attached to, so you can get the Word (seek ye first the Kingdom of God), so what you're attached to, is prospered even if they are not as interested.

Multiply that over a whole region, and it's easy to plot how increase in Bible interest resulted in more monks, missionaries, Bibles and better treatment of the Jews, hence agriculture and other economic and political increasing prosperity; how when the Jews are expelled, there is a contravening (tho maybe not universal) hostility to Bible.

Just as Lev26, Deut 28 say. In the patterns we know from history, which so far, Christ wryly annotates by year.

The Son of Man title used, has often been mistaken to mean only 'prophet'. It should be translated son of ADAM, cuz in Dan7:13 the Hebrew is different, son of man (Aramaic bar enosh, generic nature).

Son of Adam term is literal, but comes to mean 'prophet', as the prophets were all fallen like Adam was. First obvious use of it this way, is in Ezekiel 2:1, though prior uses of Ben Adam are many. It's the exclusive title used for Ezekiel throughout his book. Noteworthy is Eze40:4, where Christ in theophany is called ISH in the Hebrew. But not Adam. And of course, Eze40 is about the Millennial Temple, and Christ WILL BE AGAIN manifest as MAN then.

Interestingly enough, the last Son of Adam usage is in Daniel 8:17, with God addressing Daniel as Son of Adam. Same vocative style as used for Ezekiel, who was his younger contemporary.

So we can infer it means someONE discoursing on the Word of God.

Christ always inserts articles, ho huios tou anthropou. Two-article usage is a title, not merely monadic, same as for official calendar dates in the OT (same in Luke 1:26 versus :36). THE Son of MAN (not Adam, but the Last Adam). Really clear in the Greek versus OT, dunno why there is so much confusion.

Really boring videos demonstrating all this live in Bible, start here (b-out NT 'threads' (quotes) LXX).

. 🤓🤓🤓 .

So now, back to Matt24-25 and the anaphora. Notice the interplay between amen legw humin, kurios, parousia, ho huios tou anthropou (which in Dan7:13 LXX omits the articles, just as other LXX refs do). They are meant as anaphora in some kind of causal sequence. I don't yet know how to describe it. What I do know, is that this sequence is in descending order of intensity, and is thesauretical. Notice also that numphios in Matt25, is used as a synonym for kurios, but obviously the relationship is restricted to BELIEVERS (parthenoi).

So Christ EQUATES yet RANKS His 'appearance' or 'coming' to people with the coming of His Word in the mouths of sons of men who expiate, explain, translate and transcribe it.

We'll see the most interesting interrelationships between these anaphora (term is neuter in Greek), from now on, as now we enter THE REFORMATION.

Last edited by brainout on 27 Dec 2016, 11:53, edited 2 times in total. Luke 21 inset paragraph which uses ho huios tou anthropou

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brainout | 20 Dec 2016, 02:02

I'm not sure how to read the text as it might relate to the rise and fall of the Byzantine Empire, which impacted the development of the Balkans and Russia. Portal link is here: Portal:Byzantine Empire

Text seems to favor concentration on the West, not the East, and traces the parousia of Word to the West from the East. So far, none of the Eastern dates seem benchmarked by the text?

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brainout | 22 Dec 2016, 22:03

Okay, now I'm officially creeped out. The DISTANCE from one kurios to the next, is divisible by seven. Sometimes you start the count at the beginning (including the article) and sometimes at the end, through the NEXT full occurrence, and sometimes between them.

ALSO, the count from the last kurios to the next numphios (exclusive to Matt25) is also divisible by seven, viz the last ὁ κύριος in Matt24 is at verse 50, and it runs from syll 1610-1612. Add 30 to get AD, and it's 1640 (end of the historical voting period after Christ's death 1050+490+70) and the end of the English Reformation, per historians. So then 1640-42.

First τοῦ νυμφίου ref is in Matt25:1 and ends the verse at syll 1719.
1717-1612=105, here counting BOTH FIRST SYLLABLES of each term.

Please kill me now.

1. ὁ κύριος in Matt24 is at verse 42, sylls 1373-1375. Stands for Wycliffe&JanHus when you add 30 to convert to our AD.
2. Matt24:45, sylls 1485-1487. So 1487-1375=112, 16 sevens. Stands for Zwingli, Erasmus, Luther from 1515-1517. And also, for their 'houses' of Bible translations, at least in English, based largely on what these three did ('houses' phrase is wry, huh): 1. From Wycliffe to King James (The Period of Challenge)
3. Matt24:46, sylls 1520-22. So 1522-1487=35. Stands for 1550-1552, John Knox after he got out of prison and went to England teaching, at least; could stand for Calvin, as during those years Calvin faced Geneva opposition while teaching. During these years, both were foreigners with new teaching positions, arguing for ONLY BIBLE. This is when Stephanus mss and the Geneva Bible come out, too.
4. Matt24:48, sylls 1581-83. Here it changes: 1583-1520 (so now includes BOTH instances), is 63. Period AD is 1611-1613. Easy to see why: 1611 was the KJV made official English translation, and it was revised each year thereafter. If you count the oddly proleptic ἐλθὼν for HIS COMING prior, then you go back to 1609 when Douhay-Rheims done (see above link).
5. So v.50, noted above, from syll 1610-1612, stands for 1640-1642. Its distance is more sophisticated. Historically, the 1611 KJV was developed directly from Erasmus. But Erasmus, got some of his Greek text from what Zwingli had. So now notice: 1611-28=1583, which are syllable counts, not AD years.

Or, you can count from 1610 syll back 28 and get 1582, counting the whole year before the prior ho kurios starts. Other Bibles were then printed, here's a free download of the editions, Editions of the Bible and Parts thereof in English, from the Year MDV. to MDCCCL: With an Appendix containing Specimens of Translations, and Bibliographical Descriptions.

The 'Royal' listings are KJV Bibles, as that was the printing company authorized to print ('authorized' had to do with the publisher getting the license, and the KJV is still copyrighted to this day; publishers get around it by adding stuff to the Bible and thus publishing the same text with additions as a 'new edition').

As each print run was limited, the annual printings of the KJV were updated each time to fix prior errors. So there is nothing special about 1611 except it was the first print run.

But there was something special about the Bible publishing in 1640: it was really only part of a Bible, but was the first published in America, the Bay Psalm book.. and it was METERED. Toward the bottom of that Wiki page there's an example of Psalm 88 being metered. So, I checked versus the Hebrew we have. They didn't meter the title (Bible always does, but maybe they didn't know that).. but the Hebrew syllables in verses 1 and 2 AFTER the title, match the ENGLISH syllable counts.

A longer sample of it is in the Appendix of this book recording the initial 1640 edition, here (free download): Editions of the Bible and Parts thereof in English, from the Year MDV. to MDCCCL ~ page 177

The longer sample is hard to search for; it's on page 371 of the book, called the 'New England' edition rather than 'Bay Psalm', and begins at left-counter '28' on that page, Editions of the Bible and Parts thereof in English, from the Year MDV. to MDCCCL ~ page 371

So now compare to the Hebrew. It's clear they are counting what they think are the HEBREW SYLLABLES and then making English to FIT their counts.

Someone please kill me. I've been looking for a smoking gun like this since 2004.

Cuz 364 years after 1640, I first realized Isaiah 53 is metered, and started trying to figure out what words might be missing from the Great Isaiah scroll. You can see me do that in Isa53.htm. I had first learned the 1050s not by meter, but by the begats. My pastor suspected the 490 was a recurring thing, in his last two classes on Daniel, but I didn't hear them until 2008 or so, when I'd already done the Isaiah meter, which is in Youtube (b-out Isaiah 53 Meter Hypotheses) and vimeo (final version, Isaiah 53 Meter of Time: 1st David's Birth to Last David's Scheduled Death)

But that's not the first time METER was employed! If you search on 'metre', 'meeter' (Dutch spelling) and 'meter' you'll find earlier metered sections, mostly on Psalms, but guess what? JOHN KNOX metered Deut 32, Song of Moses! I can't find a pic of it, but found the listing here, Catalogue listing 738: Catalogue Sotheby, Wilkinson & Hodge, 1908

It was printed in 1615, but Knox was long dead by then, so I don't know when he wrote it.

Or maybe the syll counts are wrong between verses 48 and 50? Or there's a shift in fiscal, or we're looking ad mid-years (so .5 on one side or the other but you can't use half a syllable so the total is one off a sevening)?

It is true that the historic importance of the KJV to newly-forming American colonies was vast. Ironic too, that if this is an intentional 28, that the KJV-onlyists YES have a prediction of their Bible.. but not in ENGLISH, lol. A prophecy they couldn't read, unless reading the inspired Greek which is CLEARLY preserved, for the syllable counts.. SEVEN.

If you look at that whole paragraph from verse 42 on, it's so wry a commentary on 1386-1703 AD, you lose breath.

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Anonynomenon | 24 Dec 2016, 04:23

Wow, you just made my Christmas. I don't know if there are variances in the Hebrew of Psalm 1, but in Psa 1:1a, I get 14 syl, and Psa 1:1b-2a I get 28 syl.

[ אַ֥שְֽׁרֵי־הָאִ֗ישׁ אֲשֶׁ֤ר ׀ לֹ֥א הָלַךְ֮ בַּעֲצַ֪ת רְשָׁ֫עִ֥ים =14 ]

[ וּבְדֶ֣רֶךְ חַ֭טָּאִים לֹ֥א עָמָ֑ד וּבְמֹושַׁ֥ב לֵ֝צִ֗ים לֹ֣א יָשָֽׁב כִּ֤י אִ֥ם בְּתֹורַ֥ת יְהוָ֗ה חֶ֫פְצֹ֥ו=28]

Then I get a 49 in Psa 1:2b-3, so a sum total of 91 (seasonal pun).

[ וּֽבְתֹורָתֹ֥ו יֶהְגֶּ֗ה יֹומָ֥ם וָלָֽיְלָה׃ = 12 ]

(12 hour days/nights)

[ וְֽהָיָ֗ה כְּעֵץ֮ שָׁת֪וּל עַֽל־פַּלְגֵ֫י מָ֥יִם אֲשֶׁ֤ר פִּרְיֹ֨ו ׀ יִתֵּ֬ן בְּעִתֹּ֗ו = 21]

(12+21=33 Christ baring fruit in season)

[ וְעָלֵ֥הוּ לֹֽא־יִבֹּ֑ול וְכֹ֖ל אֲשֶׁר־יַעֲשֶׂ֣ה יַצְלִֽיחַ׃=16]

14+28+(12+21)+16=91

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brainout | 25 Dec 2016, 14:41

Okay, so the datelines are 14 AND 28. Doesn't matter the meter doesn't suit our verse names. Sum is 42. Have to think over what that means. For sure Psalm 1 isn't the earliest Psalm (which we know, cuz Psalm 90 is by Moses).

How about this idea,

I'm 42 when I write, was anointed king by Samuel 28 years ago when I was 14, have been king 12 years; 14 years from now, I will have 21 years left to live.

Not sure what the 16 references. It's not sevened, but may have to do with his offspring.

So now let's all kill ourselves. Look at the Last Words of David, 2Sam23:1-3, count the syllables there.

Happens that, at our first numphios which spans 1748-49, two metrical translations were made, one of Job and another of those same last words, the latter being 1749 and available for sale at Amazon, here: The Last Words of David, Divided According to the Metre. with Notes Critical and Explanatory. by Richard Grey

Listings of those dates are here: Editions of the Bible and Parts thereof in English, from the Year MDV. to MDCCCL ~ page 92

Here's a more-easily-searched and downloadable version, Full text of "A list of editions of the Bible and parts thereof in English, from the year MDV. to MDCCCXX : with an appendix containing specimens of translations, and bibliographical descriptions"

So I made an 8-part subseries showing this book and the arrogant reason why the 'scholars' did NOT pay close attention to the wider purpose of the meter, Proof of Meter known, survey 1505-1820 Part 1 (of 8)

Kill me now. Lemme know what syllable count you get in 2Sam23:1-3, cuz it's our smoking gun, been looking for this kind of thing since 2004-2005 when I learned David died at age 77 from 1Kings 6:1.

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Anonynomenon | 25 Dec 2016, 18:35

K. Here is 2 Sam 23:1-7. The meter didn't break evenly at verse 3, so I just did all 7 verses. I think I got all the elisions marked, but double count behind me and let me know if its off. Also, let me know if you think it should be elided differently.

Verse 1
20 וְאֵ֛לֶּה דִּבְרֵ֥י דָוִ֖ד הָאַֽחֲרֹנִ֑ים נְאֻ֧ם דָּוִ֣ד בֶּן־יִשַׁ֗י
27 וּנְאֻ֤ם הַגֶּ֙בֶר֙ הֻ֣קַם עָ֔ל מְשִׁ֙יחַ֙ אֱלֹהֵ֣י יַֽעֲקֹ֔ב וּנְעִ֖ים זְמִרֹ֥ות יִשְׂרָאֵֽל׃

Verse 2
15 ר֥וּחַ יְהוָ֖ה דִּבֶּר־בִּ֑י וּמִלָּתֹ֖ו עַל־לְשֹׁונִֽי׃

Verse 3
15 אָמַר֙ אֱלֹהֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לִ֥י דִבֶּ֖ר צ֣וּר יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל Paragraph Total: 77
14 מֹושֵׁל֙ בָּאָדָ֔ם צַדִּ֕יק מֹושֵׁ֖ל יִרְאַ֥ת אֱלֹהִֽים׃ Paragraph Total: 14

Verse 4
13 וּכְאֹ֥ור בֹּ֖קֶר יִזְרַח־שָׁ֑מֶשׁ בֹּ֚קֶר לֹ֣א עָבֹ֔ות
11 מִנֹּ֥גַהּ מִמָּטָ֖ר דֶּ֥שֶׁא מֵאָֽרֶץ׃

Verse 5
7 כִּֽי־לֹא־כֵ֥ן בֵּיתִ֖י עִם־אֵ֑ל
16 כִּי֩ בְרִ֨ית עֹולָ֜ם שָׂ֣ם לִ֗י עֲרוּכָ֤ה בַכֹּל֙ וּשְׁמֻרָ֔ה
13 כִּֽי־כָל־יִשְׁעִ֥י וְכָל־חֵ֖פֶץ כִּֽי־לֹ֥א יַצְמִֽיחַ׃

Verse 6
12 וּבְלִיַּ֕עַל כְּקֹ֥וץ מֻנָ֖ד כֻּלָּ֑הַם
7 כִּֽי־לֹ֥א בְיָ֖ד יִקָּֽחוּ׃

Verse 7
15 וְאִישׁ֙ יִגַּ֣ע בָּהֶ֔ם יִמָּלֵ֥א בַרְזֶ֖ל וְעֵ֣ץ חֲנִ֑ית
11 וּבָאֵ֕שׁ שָׂרֹ֥וף יִשָּׂרְפ֖וּ בַּשָּֽׁבֶת׃ פ

Paragraph Total: 105
Sum Total=196

Last edited by Anonynomenon on 25 Dec 2016, 21:57, edited 4 times in total.

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brainout | 25 Dec 2016, 20:37

Okay, well I got the 91 by the end of verse 3, in part cuz I counted neum as two syllables. Got 77, the first time it sevened, in the middle of v.3, by the end of אָמַר֙ אֱלֹהֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לִ֥י דִבֶּ֖ר צ֣וּר יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל

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Anonynomenon | 25 Dec 2016, 21:41

Ok, I got the 77 if I treat ne'um as two syllables and une'um as three, but remember, that Zephaniah seems to treat ne'um as one syllable.

And, we have to treat דִּבְרֵ֥י in verse 1 as diverei instead of divrei, in order to reach 77.

I'll have to see how the rest of the meter works before I can know for sure.

clause 1= 20
clause 2= 27
clause 3= 15
clause 4= 15

Total=77

Edit

I went back and change the meter post on 2 Sam. I got 77+14+105 now, though I don't know its really correct. Before, I had the 91 ending at verse 5 (making salvation and desire grow). It seems like a seasonal thing, like bearing fruit. I'll have to think it over.

Last edited by Anonynomenon on 25 Dec 2016, 22:04, edited 1 time in total.

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brainout | 25 Dec 2016, 22:00

Okay, well if you can get 77 some other way (maybe other words have a +1 so you can still say divrei), lemme know. It has to be deliberate, and it has to be by clause.

I still suspect the 42 occurs, just not sure where. Cuz Isaiah 53 breaks 52:13-14 as 42, then 35. So maybe either it's also in Psalm 1 or 2Sam23, the meter would have to be in Isaiah, something the reader would already know. For Matthew 1 uses the 42, and Luke 3 uses the 77.

I'm so excited I can't see straight. Been looking for proof in the meter BY David for a long time.

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Anonynomenon | 25 Dec 2016, 22:17

So what do you think is the doctrinal significance of having a 91 one at the end of verse 3, over ending in verse 5? I just need to reconcile that before I can be comfortable with either version. Cuz I really had a problem with some of my old elisions too, so I am split right down the middle.

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brainout | 25 Dec 2016, 22:27

Look at the text of verse 3, for your answer. Really pretty clever. If not clear, then I'll elaborate, but I bet you'll have a bigger enjoyment if I ask you go ask God and guess...

HINT: compare the text of Psalm 1 to the same 91 here.

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Anonynomenon | 25 Dec 2016, 22:44

Yeah, I see it now. A righteous ruler is as a fruit bearing tree, firmly planted by the stream of God's word. Its about the work that God does through us.

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brainout | 25 Dec 2016, 23:03

BINGO. Notice how 2Sam23:3 'answers' Psalm 1:1-3.

MERRY CHRISTMAS, huh!

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brainout | 26 Dec 2016, 02:09

PS it's not a problem that Zephaniah, written some 500+ years after David, would smoosh syllables. So in David's day maybe two syllables ne-um, but by Zeph's, a dipthong of one syllable. Just as Deut 6:4 should be pronounced SHE-MAAH, but modern Jews say SHMAAH.

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brainout | 28 Dec 2016, 00:45

You did it again, Anonynomenon: yep, I see the Eph1:1-2 meter now. Verse 1, 33, same as Christ's age at death; verse 2 (standard formula which Peter and Jude use, lyrical), 23 syllables, the number of years' elapse after Christ died. So maybe this is the earliest use of non-sevening for dateline meter, rather than how John (who also uses it that way). So Paul's writing in 59 AD by our timing, since we use Varro's ab urbe condita which has net 3 too many years in it (really four, but Christ is born at the end of one of them, hence we are all stuck with saying end 4 BC).

My hangup was the insertion of the en+Place, but grammatically it's not needed. Isaiah 57:19 LXX uses the same ousin kai structure, somewhat poetic. The mss leave en Ephesw out or include it IN THE MARGIN (i.e., Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, Bibleworks has indexed those mss).. which wrecks the meter if you include it in the text. But the mss don't include it in the text. AHA.

Hi, I Paul write after Christ Died at age 33, which was 23 years after Judaea became a Roman province, which is 109 years after Crassus sacked the Temple, though due to Varro's error we have to say 112 if measuring from ab urbe condita; which error also reflects the fact Christ shoulda been 56 when I write, had He been born per the original Abrahamic schedule of 2000 years after Jacob, in 4106 after Adam's fall.

Whereupon, in v.3, Paul neatly starts with Christ's birth and then his second dateline is 112 really (but the new 56 is in its own new subsevened package of 434, playing on Daniel's 62nd week BECAUSE He died at 33, and BECAUSE He was really born 4103). So Paul just minuses 3 like we do, to start the AD clean. THAT is why it tracks so perfectly to the Roman history (then future) which we HAVE.

Added bonus: Daniel 9 left out 56 from his ending meter, using only 742 sylls (think 5x1050 minus 56, cuz there are 750 sevens in 5250). Cuz he's praying for the finish of history, knowing that all but the 56 (which is post-Messiah) can be reimbursed based on past time, just as Moses wrote in Psalm 90:16-17 (which is 56 syllables rather than 70), and just as Isaiah calc'd (using 42 not 56, as the 14 was already past Israel's deadline pre-Messiah).

PS this is why I call 56 'Vote Critical', whereas if 63 and time's up, it's Vote Short.

So what about that 91? Well, now it stands for the remaining 7 to Mill, cuz under the old AND new Schedules, Christ was supposed to be 91 when it would start. But it starts 3 years EARLIER due to Him having to be born 3 years earlier, and that in order to align with the 1st Temple starting late, 1Kings 6:1. Its own next 490 ends 30 AD, so if He's not accepted by Israel by then, He'll have to die (and will).

Golly, I've been looking for this smoking-gun proof since 2010. And all along YOU gave it, but again I was stubborn, and wouldn't LISTEN. Mea maxima culpa!

Crow sure tastes good!

I need an ambulance to restart my heart, it's overpowered with happy shock.

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brainout | 31 Dec 2016, 08:03

That answer on the 91 still isn't good enough. Still piecing more stuff together.

For example, now we see Paul's theme is quite wry:
starts with Crassus, a Roman general who will later be sacked, sacking the Jerusalem tample.

Paul's endpoint is 434 AD when a sacked Roman general extracts sack money from BOTH Western and Eastern Rome as ransom for not sacking them (Aetius, see here, here, and here).

Christ's start point was when Egypt was defeated by a general, too. 30 BC, she became a province of Rome. Of course at the end of Matt25 He is the Conqueror.

Cute. Any Roman would have gotten that immediately of course. They knew their history like we know the latest sitcoms, TV series, sports or pop songs.

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brainout | 06 Jan 2017, 01:58

Still working on the 91, and will now hypothesize that Paul's getting it from Luke (thread here http://brainout.net/frankforum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=521), not Matt24. Why? Clever addition of 28+63 in Luke's two datelines equals 91, which is a play on the content of the chapter, the upcoming Tribulation.

Season of Church due to Trib not yet. Christ was supposed to be 91 when Trib began, had there been no Church. So it's the season of Church, not the Season of the Last Seven Daniel 9:27 years.

Another significance to 91 I didn't spot before: Chanukah is always the 85th day after autumnal equinox. 25 Chislev is the 85th day at sundown on the 84th day, which is the day forecast in Haggai 2 to Zerubbabel. So now if we counted 8 days from the 24th, we get the 92nd day, but it's piggybacked on the 91st day at sundown.

Luke's playing a very particular game with his syllable counts versus Matt24, and ends up sevening more, but I'm still not sure WHAT game. So a) Luke KNOWS Matt24 sevens at each anaphora and keyword occurrence, and b) does the same (but less often), ON the Matt24 syllable counts, RELATIVE TO HIS OWN syllable counts.

Still trying to figure out Luke's handle, but look:

Quote:

Matt24:4, ending at syll 169, βλέπετε μή τις ὑμᾶς πλανήσῃ·
Luke moves it up to end at syll 112, Luke 21:8, βλέπετε μὴ πλανηθῆτε

Here's a wiki partial list of claimants, but it's slapdash, List of messiah claimants

199 AD: Septimus Severus is in power, and the chiliasts were expecting the Millennium to begin, falsely counting from ab urbe condita (753+199), which caused problems in Rome and fostered a bit of backlash against Christians. Also then was the rise of the claim that 'bishops' were vicars of Christ, and by 217 Demetrius of Alexandria for the first time 'helps' Julius Africanus claim Peter is on a bishop's list for Rome, in part to make Origen look less important (who will then (217) be courting the Severan mothers to get them to convert to Christianity).

Raw end-to-end distance is 57, ring a bell? However, if you count from the first syll in Matt you get 160-56=104, the last syll before Luke's 'requote' begins.

At 112, the focus is Bar Kochba aftermath. Depending on who you read, the rebellion was quelled in 135 AD, 7 years prior; with Jews thereafter being forbidden to enter the city; it's renamed Aeolia Capitolina, but it's not then finished in reconstruction. Judaea becomes Syria Palestina the following year, first time the name is used.

So what's the tie? Seems like the end of the world; plague (189), burning (190), Commodus going nuts so then assassinated (192) so civil war (Year of the Five Emperors, ending with Septimus Severus). The other tie? This is the heyday of that vile anti-semite, Tertullian, who couldn't read the Bible if it bit him, Chapter XIII.—Argument from the Destruction of Jerusalem and Desolation of Judea.

False christ, him. Why anyone praises him I'll never fathom. The guy was a total spiritual retard.

Quote:

Matt24:32, Ἀπὸ δὲ τῆς συκῆς, sylls 1037-42.
Luke 21:20, Καὶ εἶπεν παραβολὴν αὐτοῖς· ἴδετε τὴν συκῆν, sylls 821-34.

Note the τῆς συκῆς in Matt ends 1042. Note it begins in Luke, at 832. Distance? 210!

Now, the event Luke flags with the term is the same as the ending parousia clause in Matt 24:27, παρουσία τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου· which we know is an anaphora in Matt which Luke omits. But the end of the clause in Matt is 833, sevened. So Luke's use of τὴν συκῆν EXACTLY MEETS IT IN THE MIDDLE (so one syll on either side).

Import? Well, the Matt use of fig tree exactly coincides with the takeover of Jerusalem in 1071-73 as part of the Arabs warring with Byzantium.

But 210 years prior, 863, when Luke's in the middle of his use of fig tree, thus corresponding to Matt 24:27's 833: three years after Russia raided Byzantium (860), she converts; in the very year the Moravian alphabet was invented to evangelize the Moravians, as ordered by Louis the German. Bulgaria converts, the next year.

See the tie? Arabs and Normans were then invading Byzantium too. But 210 years later, Russia would be helping. for the 1071-73 invasion was the proximate cause of the Crusades.

No doubt that earlier raid in 860 brought with it Greek mss; so now when Russia converts, she has both translation and original script, for comparison, replete with the two guys who can read both (Cyril and Methodius).

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brainout | 10 Jan 2017, 08:24

I'm still not coming up with anything definitive on 91 in Paul. Closest thing is a hypothesis that there are two basic time meter types:

1. Accounting, no 'theme' in the meter, except its totals based on 490, 1050, etc. Examples are Gen1, Daniel 9, Magnificat, Matt24-25, Luke 21.
2. Balancing the accounting to the Plan of God. These have themes and are symmetrical around them: Psalm 90, Isaiah 53, Eph1.

The 'A' writers tag the 'B' material. Moses tags Ps90 in Gen1, Daniel 9 tags Psalm 90 and Isaiah 53, Mary tagged them also along with Daniel, esp. Daniel 9:24-27.

So does Luke tag Paul? Not sure. Seems more the other way around, which goes against the hypothesis here. Paul definitely tags Matt24-25, so does Luke. Paul definitely tags Ps90, Isa53, even Dan9, also indirectly the Magnificat, but I can't see how he's tagging Luke directly.

Stumped. 🤔 😺 😀

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Anonynomenon | 11 Jan 2017, 02:13

Ok, so lets look at Psalm 90 versus Gen 1. Psalm 90 provides the skeletal structure, while Gen 1 puts meat on the bones. Hence, it would make more sense for the skeletal structure (B) to bear the general theme, whereas the organic structure (A) goes into the nuances.

But as you said, that would be the opposite, if Paul tags Matt 24

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brainout | 11 Jan 2017, 06:42

Well, maybe it's a mix of both. And the other thing: OT timelines are sometimes dual (Ps90, Daniel 9). So what about the NT? In particular, is the Eph1:1-2 '56' a setup for a dual timeline? Luke 21 clearly brackets Matt24 to show different sevening results that are complementary. Is Paul doing that as well? Peter makes a song out of Paul; Jude, from Peter. I dunno about John yet. So what's the significance of those?

Questions, questions.

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Anonynomenon | 13 Jan 2017, 02:57

Im thinking about metering the first 4 seals in Revelation. Maybe it will tie in with Matt 24 since the Four Horsemen are Historical Trend regulators.

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brainout | 13 Jan 2017, 08:23

Maybe. I keep wondering if John updates the Matt24-25 timeline past 3250AD.

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brainout | 18 Jan 2017, 01:17

Okay, I think I got the themes now.

Christ plays Talmudic 7000 cuz he dies 4136 (which you round to 4137 to make the new total seven at 7357 by the end of the next 3220). Presumably that includes the Mill, but since it doesn't evenly end, you can't call it a true final literal calendar, just a map of the next 3220 years.

Luke then maps only a pre-post-Church 1050, to show the 1050 CIVILIZATION TREND. It's literal history, which you then use after the 1050 to know how to read the next 2 1050's in Matt. So a 1050 always ends in some kind of crusading, mass migration, etc. Ours ends 2130.

Paul then maps a 490, again same style as Luke, but only for the 490, to show how Church becomes apostate and how that affects the quality of the civilization. So Church apostatizes, life turns bad, then God cleans house during the intervening 70, and the 'Year' starts over again. So again, first literal history, but after that it becomes paradigmal.

So now we have three ways to read the Matt, Luke, Pauline text:

1. Literal for the generation getting it. So those alive 30AD would need all that text to know how to orient during their lifetimes.
2. Literal for the future generation just before Trib starts, for Matthew text. By then, they are supposed to know all the above, to know how to read the literal unfolding of the text for their own, shorter lifespans.
3. Paradigmal, to show historical trends.

So now, to Rev. Looks like Rev 6 reaffirms the trends, so its syllable counts should be interesting. Looks like a 490. Rev17 tags Ephesians 1:9 musterion to show FAKE CHURCH which Paul mapped out year by year, stressing the Constantinian takeover (I bet Rev17 tags Constantine as the trend of Fake Church, which trend will be true in the Trib as well).

The larger theme is the kidnapping of Bible, and how the few run away with it, so others can still get it; enough finally believe so it's freed up, then due to its popularity the faith politicizes, then the kidnapping begins all over again.

So now, here when the Bible even in the original mss is freely available, what kind of kidnapping trend occurs next? And when, cuz it looks like from 2062-2662, Bible is more accepted than ever before, since 1st century.

During the 1st century, there was no hierarchy, and everyone was free to get Scripture. There were occasional expulsions from an area or even from Rome, but Rome's policy was that the provinces had a right to their own religions. So after Christ died, you see a gradual increasing of politicizing Christianity, and when Constantine finally gets into power, it's CHRISTIANITY which becomes the tyrant. For awhile.

Wash rinse repeat. Each new 490's apostasy is more widespread and worse than the one prior, cuz a) Scripture is more available to more people, b) most individuals reach some maxed-out acceptance before spiritual adulthood, so go political or religious (same thing) about one's 'faith'; c) more who do not believe react against those who do more strongly, and since Bible is more available they make more arguments which center more and more on its own validity.

So each 1050 is marked by worldwide crusading of non-believers, not only believers, as this reaction progresses. That's where we are now, with Islam and others who are neither Jews nor Christians. But the Jews and Christians become more proprietary about their faiths rather than Bible too, as we're seeing now.

The English Reformation freed Bible. But now that it's freed, it needs to be disseminated, translated, studied, fought over in study.. but that always leads to politicizing and religifying. On a wider scale. So that accounts for why the US, why every country on the planet has Freedom of Religion in its constitution, why so few countries have official state religions anymore. At the same time, the arguments among the people are sharpening, though not likely will become military engagements anymore, except for what the Islamicists might do.

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brainout | 03 Feb 2017, 02:14

Wow, what a timesaver! MS Word lets you search on the Greek letters. Dunno if Adobe will, maybe. Thing is, to paint them first then use Find.

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brainout | 04 Feb 2017, 03:11

Okay, version 6 of the Matt24-25 meter is up, and it's much easier to follow, too. Total is now 3213, which is the lowest the total can be. The more I vet it, the more it makes sense, so when Anonynomenon did it at 3213, he got the right total first.

That total is more right, cuz
3213+30=3243 AD +
4106 (converter to YOW from our BC/AD, original planned Bday for Christ had Temple/David been on time) =
7349 one year SHY of 7350, which is 1050 x 7. Has to be deliberate, right?

Link: Matt24-25ParsedR6temp.pdf

CHANGES are highlighted in yucky green. I won't upload the doc version yet. Still vetting the dipthongs. It's due to the dipthongs and a few of the variants which I mislisted, that the seven syllables had to be subtracted. I strongly suspect any further changes will be self-cancelling, so if you see a syllable needing to be cut, there's somewhere near by one which is under counted.

But YOU decide.

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Anonynomenon | 06 Feb 2017, 06:38

I was looking online to see if there were more Christian organizations that recognized life at birth, and I found something noteworthy.

Quote:

In the parable of the Wise vs. the Foolish Virgins, Jesus Christ Himself tells us that fully half of Christendom will not have enough of the Holy Spirit in them [oil in their lamps] to meet the Bridegroom [Christ] when He has been late for the wedding.

Source: http://www.lifebeginsatbirth.org/index.html

I was really just skimming through their page for some more Bible verses to debunk the "pro-life" propaganda, and that really caught my eye, since it ties to the meter and our current political situation.

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brainout | 06 Feb 2017, 13:27

FANTASTIC. This really helps, thank you!

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brainout | 18 Feb 2017, 02:14

Update on the meter. I'm trying to find the prophetic historical-trend 'center', and thought it was simply the English Reformation, since that was the third amen legw humin. But I miscalculated it. There are six occurrences, so the 'middle' is not 3, but 3-4, so there are two on either side.

So Christ via Matthew is saying the nexus of history STARTED with the English Reformation, but that 'center' doesn't END until (gulp).. the end of Matt25:12.

Here's the link for the latest version: Matt24-25ParsedR6.pdf. Am still working on the doc, so I don't want to upload it yet.

Now you'll find intra-doc links. Click on the 'Notes' link, and you'll see there two center maps of the verses: first one is in anaphora order (in order of first appearance in the text), and the second is in verse order (in order of actual appearance of all references in the text).

I missed a couple in prior versions, so this count is more accurate.

First, you go by anaphora. How many occurrences? If say seven, then the fourth one is center for that anaphora. So those are shaded in the first set of links in the Notes. But then you also count the total number of occurrences and then find the center of it (i.e., the 24th occurrence is center, as the total occurrences including same-verse occurrences, is 47). The link listings make it easy to count.

The goal is to find overlap, a kind of 'nest' which contains ALL the types of anaphora sandwiched within the bookends of one anaphora. Right now, that seems to be the same amen legw humin running from Matt24:47-25:12. But parousia doesn't occur within that 'nest'. All the others, do. So I wonder if that's the real center.

Am still trying to figure it out.

Point is, like Day of the Lord and Greek drama, to find the nexus of the'play' of history, into which all prior is purposed, and out from which all results flow. That's how Revelation is written, that's how Paul did his epainon anaphora (centering on Constantine) in Ephesians, so I bet he got it from Matt.

Mark's doing the same thing, but with only three anaphora, so the centers might be easier to map. But those will be for the Byzantine Empire, not global. Matthew's, is global.

I don't know if Luke uses the anaphora nests. Paul did, so maybe Luke didn't. Have yet to test Luke.

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Anonynomenon | 18 Feb 2017, 06:55

Now, 950 is just after κόψονται πᾶσαι αἱ φυλαὶ τῆς γῆς καὶ. If you add 950+560=1510 which is just after μακάριος.

.....and, 1510+490=2000, terminating with ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν which ends the year 2030 AD.

So we are going to end a hidden 560+483+7 of some kind?

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brainout | 18 Feb 2017, 07:26

I don't know. Bible does run embedded 70's, 490s, 1050s, not merely the qualifying ones.

Qualifying ones are contiguous, every 490 years (no interrupting 70s) someone must spiritually mature enough to renew the next 490, wash rinse repeat.

Same for the 1050. The begats in Gen5, 7, 11 plot this out, so when you map the years, you see Enoch was born just when the 490 signified by Seth's birth, ran out. Noah's 490 ran out so Abraham had to mature 54 years early (and did).

Even so, Moses in Gen 1 and Psalm 90 makes a point about writing 1050 from the Flood, which isn't a historical or qualifying 1050. Christ died the 980th anniversary of the Temple had it not been razed, and the 1470th anniversary of the original Exodus. So there are other 490 trackings. We know of other 70 trackings from Jeremiah 25 and 29.

So what would your numbers be tracking? Dunno, but it's hard to believe the value is coincidental.

Then again, maybe the time plays back to some Biblical date in the past. Like, 1050 flood, tho I can't find any yet.

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Anonynomenon | 18 Feb 2017, 07:33

I don't know yet, but the 1050 starts with "and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory". That is a bold way to start a new 1050. Then it ends with our Lord's reply to the foolish: ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν. That is dramatic.

Then after the Lord finishes the discipline, its like a type of Millennium with thirds spiritual.

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brainout | 18 Feb 2017, 14:29

Yeah, could be. I forgot to include the Iesous and Christos references as synonymal with all those kurios and numphios, to find the center. Am doing it with Mark right now, but my brain keeps going out.

The idea is to first sum all the synonymal occurrences, then find its middle. Say there are 11. Then 6 is the middle, so that 5 is on either side. But when the number is even, you have to PAIR to get even on either side. Yeah, so Mark knows that, and did that in Mark 13:21 to make it easy to find. But v.20 has to be paired too, since the sum of the synonyms in Mark for Lord/Christ/son ends up being 8. Clever way to stress the HU.

How that same thing works in Matt, I don't yet know. Maybe you'll find it.

Point is, the meaning of Matt25:12 is much more severe than I'd thought. Sorry!

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Anonynomenon | 18 Feb 2017, 22:00

Here is what I hope is a complete list of synonymal nouns used for our Lord in Matt 24-25. The synonyms are numbered, but I also included other phrases and terms that do not represent Christ. I'm still working on the list, so it might grow a bit more.

1) ὁ Ἰησοῦς 24:1
2) βλέπετε 24:2b
ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν 24:2c
3)τὸ σημεῖον 24:3d
4) τῆς σῆς παρουσίας 24:3d
5) ὁ Ἰησοῦς 24:4
6) Βλέπετε 24:4b
τῷ ὀνόματί μου 24:5a
7) ὁ χριστός 24:5b
8) ὁρᾶτε 24:6
τὸ ὄνομά μου 24:9c
9) ἴδητε 24:15
10) ὁ χριστός 24:23
11) σημεῖα 24:24a
12) ἡ παρουσία τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου 24:27b
13) σημεῖον 24:30a
14) τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου 24:30a
15) ὄψονται 24:30c
16) τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου 24:30c
17) ἴδητε 24:33
ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι 24:34
18) ὁυἱός 24:36c
19) ἡ παρουσία τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου 24:37b
20) ἡ παρουσία τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου 24:39b
21) ὁ κύριος 24:42a
22) ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου 24:44
23) ὁ κύριος 24:45a
24) ὁ κύριος 24:46
ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι 24:47a
25) ὁ κύριος 24:48
26) ὁ κύριος 24:50
27) τοῦ νυμφίου 25:1b
28) τοῦ νυμφίου 25:5a
29) Ἰδοὺ 25:6
30) ὁ νυμφίος 25:6
31) ὁ νυμφίος 25:10a
32) κύριε 25:11
33) κύριε 25:11
ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν 25:12b
34) ἄνθρωπος 25:14
35) τοῦ κυρίου 25:18
36) ὁ κύριος 25:19
37) κύριε 25:20b
38) ἴδε 25:20b
39) ὁ κύριος 25:21
40) τοῦ κυρίου 25:21b
41) κύριε 25:22a
42) ἴδε 25:22b
43) ὁ κύριος 25:23a
44) τοῦ κυρίου 25:23b
45) κύριε 25:24b
46) ἄνθρωπος 25:24b
47) ὁ κύριος 25:26a
48) ὁυἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου 25:31a
49) ὁ βασιλεὺς 25:34a
50) κύριε 25:37b
51) εἴδομεν 25:37b
52) εἴδομεν 25:38
53) εἴδομεν 25:39
54) ὁ βασιλεὺς 25:40a
ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν 25:40b
αἰώνιον 25:41b
55) κύριε 25:44a
56) εἴδομεν 25:44b
ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν 25:45b
αἰώνιον 25:46
αἰώνιον 25:46

Last edited by Anonynomenon on 20 Feb 2017, 04:30, edited 10 times in total

brainout | 19 Feb 2017, 19:51

So you're counting four I'm not counting, and not counting 6 I am counting. So you get 56 versus my 67. I'm also counting the apokriteis, because they seven and are pregnant judgment preambles. So that's the diff: 9 apok + 6 amen.

You need both verbs and nouns. In verse order, the keywords alternate into precis sentences, effectively saying 'Answering (with juridical rule), Christ Believe See Sign (of His) Coming Answering See Jesus Christ See Christ the Sign' etc. I put the keywords in verse order in the Notes section of the Matt24-25 pdf (link below). Pretty amazing.

I don't count idou cuz it's an adverb. Only verbs and nouns. Not counting semeion but maybe should. If I do, all three occurrences are before v.47, and the result is still Matt25:11ab as center (total 70 is meaningful, so the 35-36th would be center). So maybe should count it, but the center result doesn't much change, drat! Paired center now starts with the prolife movement, Matt25:10, ends at Matt25:11a.

I updated Matt24-25ParsedR6.pdf accordingly, adding semeion.

older post is below.
====================
Do the 42 you counted, all seven to each other? Example, does 2nd Iesous seven to the first? Then seven to parousias? If they don't, then either the count is wrong or it's not intended as an anaphora, and there MUST be at least a pair of them.

Do the Basileus refs seven to each other (I get the distance at 210, so yes)? Do the ho christos refs seven to each other (I get the distance of 504, so yes)? Adding these makes the kurios center later and later. Adding these 4 to the 23 I have (including numphios, in verse order, count every occurrence even if repeated in the verse), makes the center Matt25:20.

Adding ho Iesous, seven to each other at 154-7.

So now the total becomes 29 (23 plus the six you found). So then 14 left and 14 right means (in verse order) the 15th occurrence, Matt25:18.

Including parousia as a synonym, then 10 more means 39. In verse order, then the 20th occurrence puts us back at the second of the pair in Matt25:11, which is our own 2017 (yikes).

But in no event do the other anaphora occurrences converge with them. The center of the prophecy is where they converge, which brings us back to amen legw humin, which has six occurrences, so must be a pair to center, which is between English Reformation (24:47) and (ulp) our Matt25:12. The only items not converging are parousia, and the above basileus/christos refs, tho they may be 'spokes' out from the convergences, I'm not sure.

Not sure to onomati mou is meant to be an anaphora either, since it's a fake claim in His name, but not Him, tho the ho christos refs might seven. It does in Mark.

I'd leave out all the pronouns, autos, su, me, etc. And why did you inclulde kleptis, since that's a thief?

If there's only one occurrence (like poimen) then it's not an anaphora, which by definition, repeats.

There are several centers to plot. One per keyword, its own center. Then the center for the sum of all the synonyms. The real center is where they all converge.

Here's an example (the big red box section), but it doesn't take into account your additions yet.

brainout | 27 Feb 2017, 19:45

Okay, all three are up now, and they coordinate with boxed cum meter totals where they are the same.

• Matt24-25ParsedR6.pdf or doc (done in MSWord 2003)
• Luke21Meter.pdf or doc
• Mark13MeterR.pdf or doc
• So too Rev, Rev17Meter.pdf or doc

DownlTips.htm now has copies, if you only want one link to keep.

It's easier to see the convergences. For Mark, since he's forecasting Byzantine history, there are many intra-doc links so you can see what rulers he marks. Uncanny how the Blepw/horaw instances EACH TIME mark someone's death.

See what you think.

brainout | 01 Mar 2017, 07:22

I finally found the link on another computer to the other guys who long ago realized Ephesians 1 was metered. It's in German, though. I don't know if Google Translate will translate the page, but here's the link: https://www.stichometrie.de/text.html

I used Google translate on the page, Stichometry in the NT

Notice what scholars call the UBS text (the formal name for United Bible Society, the copyright owner) they call 'GNT', which is the Bibleworks name and also used by scholars as the name. 'NA' stands for Nestle-Aland, a German couple who periodically update the text. In any name, this is the standardized 'critical edition', meaning a compilation of all extant mss leaving in only the text they think is closest to the original. That's what 'Textus Receptus' (which Erasmus did, and the KJV translators initially used) and 'Majority Text' are as well. So there are three major critical editions, but the most prized thus far, is the UBS/GNT/NA.

You can get older NA editions for free in Google Books (free download), but the Greek is not searchable.

You then view it with what's called an 'apparatus', which is a compilation of all the mss VARIANTS from the UBS/GNT/NA text, and that's what's in Bibleworks, along with some of the actual major mss which have long since been on facsimile and are also freely online. But Bibleworks indexes each verse, so you can see the original and the transliteration side by side.

Point is, when you get into these weeds, you have to know the nomenclature scholars use, to know what you're looking at. And these guys are scholars. But they don't know the meter of BIBLE, but instead are evaluating GREEK CLASSICAL METER and testing Ephesians 1 (among others) as fitting that meter, too.

I can't get into Twitter right now. Seems like they are refurbishing the site, cuz the signin page keeps changing then does nothing when you click on it. So I'll put the link in your Youtube comments on my videos, too.

brainout | 15 Mar 2017, 12:13

Matt24-25's Meter was updated, so use the link again if you want to see it, Matt24-25ParsedR6.pdf. Can now download en masse from the downloads directory, DownlTips.htm.

brainout | 01 Apr 2017, 17:58

Not yet updated: the same keywords for their AD years, as I did for Mark 13 and Rev17. I'm kinda pooped out right now. Might be in a month or two before I can document all the keywords now indexed in the revised pdf.

brainout | 03 Apr 2017, 15:21

Now updated, but am still proofing the explanation. New Feature: click on the keyword in the Greek to go to the note (it's green and underlined now); when in the note, click on the green underlined word to return to the text. The interlinks at the top of each page go to the text.

There are seventy whopping anaphora. Meter is the same, but the sevening is documented now and even the Amen anaphora seven, EXCEPT the one at 1110. But it's deliberately not sevening, tho I'm not yet sure why.

Should work well on mobile, too.

Again, download link is still same name, Matt24-25ParsedR6.pdf

So here's a navigation video which incidentally covers the astonishing SEVENING between each of the anaphora keywords: Matt24Meter: Witness miracle of Bible text always SEVENING 1/3

brainout | 10 Apr 2017, 18:48

For now, I'm done proofing the explanation. The doc/pdf are updated now, same name, and also in the downloads directory, along with the videos above in their originals, so you don't have to watch them in Youtube but can download.

brainout | 24 Jun 2017, 10:08

Update: I'm comfortable with the videos now on all but Eph1 and Luke 21. May have to redo some of the Matt24-25 explanation, too. I'm really stymied at what Luke 21's benchmarking. So am in the middle of revisiting Luke 1 dateline meter for clues.

Also, Rev1 dateline meters, as I think John's doing a 3-D meter Rubik's cube to tie up all the themes in Scripture. Proving that idea true will take awhile. Or, finding what is true instead. Have started but not yet uploaded the video revisit on Rev1. I will not post them in vimeo, but in Youtube, in the same playlist, sometime later.

brainout | 06 Jul 2017, 02:10

Think I know the themes:

Matthew 24-25 traces the relationship between Volition to #Bible rollout (positive or negative) and historical results (positive and negative, direct correlation). It's not expressly political.
Eph1 ties the political results to the teaching going bad.
Luke 21? I still don't know.
Mark 13, same theme as Eph1, but tracks Matt24-25. I can't tell exactly how it tracks Luke 21, tho it does track the anaphora and focuses on the same Charlesmagne period, tho for Byzantium.
Rev17 is baldly political.

Matt Mark Rev all use 'kai' to mock a dying emperor, similar to how Paul used the eta in thelematos. Rev uses it pointedly, Mark's pattern of use I've yet to determine. Matt doesn't focus that much on it? Unsure. I can't find whether it's used in Luke. The Luke 21 meter is obvious, but I can't tell what he tracks.

Anonynomenon | 06 Jul 2017, 05:18

So "Lord, Lord" and following, is a prediction of Bible rollout being rejected, not so much a direct commentary on the political apostasy? Of course, the apostasy would be the natural result of negative volition, but the Alt-Right is merely a primer at this point. Apostate Alt-Right rises as Bible rollout occurs so that people can be presented with both options.

If so, then wouldn't 2018 have to be a very public rollout?

brainout | 06 Jul 2017, 09:48

Yeah, it would. Focus in Matthew is not apolitical, we saw how biting it gets starting with Matt24:50 onward. All those refs are political. But the benchmarks (cum syll totals) aren't. Here's where I started tracing the morph to kurios from the prior parousia: Matt24Meter: Matt24 anaphora satirically morphs to kurios/numphios, 12/18

In Mark and Rev, the benchmarks seem to stress political. I can't tell WHAT Luke stresses.

Basic idea is that when volition to Bible goes negative, mankind becomes religious then political in that sequence. So yeah, 2018 onward is public. You and I have been batting around the question of intensity. Now I'm beginning to think it will be VERY intense, as the religio-political is going toward CRUSADE by 2030 (for in Russia, the parallel movement is called Third Rome, look it up); which means a 2nd Reformation to free Bible will also go on, within the same time frame or after.

I don't know how long the 2nd Reformation will last, but the 2nd Crusade Reset seems like it ends soon, about 2062. I have no idea how violent it will get, but it doesn't have to, now. We can kidnap/enslave each other via cyber wars.

Like nearly everything else I type and say, these are hypotheses or speculations, guesstimates. So yell at me if they seem wrong.

brainout | 16 Jul 2017, 18:28

Okay, going back to Luke's Meter, viewtopic.php?t=521

His Chapter 21 is the only chapter whose meter pattern I still can't prove historically per clause. The keywords fit perfectly with their fellows in Matt24 (prior), Eph1 (seems prior), Mark 13 (after), Rev17 (long after).

Meter looks sound, but I didn't break the clauses apart all the time. Will have to see what difference that makes.

brainout | 4 Aug 2017, 12:07

Quantum Bible will change to show Matt24-25 as part of a 4-way demo of Justinian, sometime maybe next week.

brainout | 27 Aug 2017, 09:42

Now I'm certain Luke 21 is charting the 'barbarians' history. I don't know their dates as well. So will update Luke21 doc/pdf after I know which dates he references.

brainout | 24 Sep 2017, 00:30

Update: still haven't had time to review 'barbarian' history, so to better map Luke 21. The other five chapters are mostly done

brainout | 07 Sep 2020, 21:45

Series will resume after October 15th, with a much-more indepth 'Quantum Bible' showing all the related passages for the Constantine-Justinian I period.