Biblical Topics

brainout | 25 Jul 2017, 10:41

Thread on the latest rapture drooling by #SevenMountains and other apostate, DT-backing Christians, and apostate #ThirdRome backing Putin Christians (who persecute anyone not Russian Odox).. oh, Christ might come back in 2030!

I'd warned about that, here:

But now, there's an actual site with wildly-wrong use of Bible (based on the number TWO), saying 2030, so you know millions of junk Christians will fall for it. He wrote a book, and yes I bought it, so I can TEAR IT APART. This thread is dedicated to that. Feel free to call me names, too.

2nd vid essentially same description, goes through that same first page in his website, quickly shredding his twisting of Scripture

Third one ends up complimenting his at least noticing that 2023 and 2030 are important, but not for the reasons he picked. (Even a stopped clock, like all of us, is right twice a day.)

These vids are all in the Matthew 24 playlist at 137-140, respectively. After 140, a new 'Quantum Bible' subseries starts, going back over Revelation 17, so you can prove in more detail, why 2030 is NOT predicted as the end of Church Age.

Now factor this in:

ISLAM has a collection of its own prophetical end-times dates. Google: the age of the islamic ummah and the proximity of the mahdi emergence

If you're willing to tolerate a guy whose native tongue is not English, this guy lays out the main verses and tafseer (exegesis by Muslim imams/scholars) in the hadith and Koran, about this eschatology:

I found that very helpful. Hope you will, too. What's unique about his account, is that Jesus (Issa or Eesa or Esa) is NOT the 'Mahdi' but comes down from heaven for the last battle (echoing Zech 14, prolly).

They don't notice the math, but you will, if you've perused GeneYrs.xls:
2130AD -7=2123-623 (really 622, year Mohammed left for Medina, called 'The Hegira')=1500.

THAT is when the 'Mahdi' (who, to Muslims, is also Jesus Christ) starts the final war to win for Islam (or ends it, accounts vary). This 'Mahdi' is supposed to 'appear' when 40 years old. So he's 47 when he wins, or 40 when he wins, but in either case notice the same numbers as used in both Talmud (Sanhedrin 97-99) and Bible (well, if you counted the dates properly) are used.

That equates to a different 'end times' scenario which also has convergence to the 490+70+490 structure (twice).

There's also the myth or prophecy of the '12th Imam', which is supposed to be the harbinger of the foregoing. Every generation seems to think it has that 12th Imam.

So now: do we spend our lives drooling over the 'end times' brother? Or (ahem) JUST LEARN GOD?

Well, many will drool, and that means from now until 2130, just as has been true every other last 120 of a 490, there will be 'wars and rumors of wars until I come.'

There are a number of videos in Youtube, and posts in twitter, claiming some variation of the 2030 apocalypse theme, none of them like the one above, but all of them goofball. In twitter, just search on 2030 to see the posts. Also, that 2017 nutter #davidmeade now claims October 15 as the updated 'end'. Just the same as my deadline for filing my client's pension plan returns (tho due to Hurricane Harvey, technically I have until January 31, 2018).

brainout | 20 Nov 2017, 02:26

I forget if I've made a thread on this elsewhere. If so, this is the new main thread, and I'll add links from the older ones into this first paragraph, as a sort of TOC.

I document the very many links of #TrumpRussia under that hashtag in twitter, so in Google just use my @brainouty name and the hashtag, to find them. Or, do the same within twitter. You shouldn't have to sign in, to do that.

THERE ARE MANY CO CONSPIRATORS, some of whom are famous authors, movie stars, etc. They have different goals to disinform Americans and Europe about DT and Putin's role in the electorate.

This thread is for anything #TrumpRussia, and I'll park some videos on it in here. You add whatever you think best.

There were some Russian-related bots from the first week this forum was open in August 2015, as members. I deactivated those I found, and will keep looking. The crawler bots which might be related to Russia are not on this board, so far as I can find. If you want a list of them, I can do screenshots.

ANONYMITY AND PROTECTION ARE THE HEART OF FRANKFORUM.

Three-part series named Zembla, done in Netherlands. In Part One, Malcolm Nance aims to convince you that DT's involvement with Russia started in 2013, same as claimed in the 'Steele dossier'. The dossier is in part, deliberate falsehood, not by Steele but by his informants, as Russians do employ 'informants' designed to feed you false info.

Nance consorts with a known Russian operative, and when I confronted him on that, he blocked me.

Here's the proof I have, in a thread of discoveries of a Russian contact who uses various names, but Nance endorsed her, as you'll see in the thread https://twitter.com/brainouty/status/932037720456749056

brainout🇺🇦 | @brainouty
The 'Gic' jerk woman is also @RobinBrenizer, who stalked to death a guy associated with KT, below. She exposes herself as Kremlin-backed, here and elsewhere, but esp here.

She has many twitter accounts with some variant of the two names, and is endorsed by @MalcolmNance

---

KT "Special CIA Operation" | @KremlinTrolls
#KremlinTrolls inadvertently expose their connections, all you need to do is pay attention. 🃏

Point is, 'controlled opposition', idea of Russia not being able to stop disclosure, but can HERD IT to some direction it wants as a decoy. Here, the decoy is WHEN DID TRUMP FIRST BECOME INVOLVED WITH RUSSIA? Per Nance, 2013, as shown in the Zembla series below (and it's false, DT first became involved in 1987):

Part One, Zembla

Part Two, Zembla (unfortunately not labelled part 2)

Part Three, Zembla

The series is something of a nothingburger, since names and innuendo abound. But the idea is, THEY knew of pre-2013 DT involvement with Russia, so why not NANCE?

Blockbuster article by politico, showing DT was likely recruited in 1987, not saying 'likely' of course, but setting that stage: The Hidden History of Trump’s First Trip to Moscow: In 1987, a young real estate developer traveled to the Soviet Union. The KGB almost certainly made the trip happen.

SO NOW ASK: how could NANCE not know all this, since the actual meeting and DT's subsequent behavior were all PUBLICLY DISCLOSED by DT himself (i.e., in Art of the Deal, and in his sudden 1987+ ads contra NATO and Central Park 5 taken out in NYC news)?

https://twitter.com/counterchekist/status/932701747251990528

Counterchekist #StandWithUkraine @counterchekist | 12:55 PM · Nov 20, 2017
Malcolm Nance was one of the biggest amplifiers of the “LM = alt-right” deza (disproven by LM = RT’s #3 enemy of Russia, and being on alt-right troll’s “hitlist.” Who else spread this deza? Cassandra Fairbanks (Sputnik) from her #provokatsiya sock puppet-account.

Just sayin’.

---

Counterchekist #StandWithUkraine @counterchekist | 1:01 PM · Nov 20, 2017
^^^^ Also worth noting: #OpBridgeBuster #OpTangoClown #OpGhostStories2

This alt-right “hitlist” was 1:1 copied from a troll spoof site of Chris Nethery’s blog; a site hosted on the same server as multiple domains registered to @/RobinBrenizer & was promoted by several “resistance” accounts.

Note th3j35t3r is absent... #OpGhostStories2 #FakeOppo https://twitter.com/911CORLEBRA777

This Post is from a suspended account.

---

Counterchekist #StandWithUkraine @counterchekist | 1:06 PM · Nov 20, 2017
^^^^ Kremlin-left meets Kremlin-right. Maybe someone should ask Malcolm about SkyHorse Publishing and their odd affinity for pro-Kremlin themes, conspiracy theorists, Putin propagandists, populism, and alt-right figures such as ROGER STONE. Just sayin’.

That is another post demonstrating that Nance consorts with and is endorsed by known Russian operative

brainout | 23 Jul 2017, 00:17

I've made a ton of posts re TrumpRussia in twitter, mostly articles and news, which need a permanent parking space, so I'll edit this post as time allows with those links. Meanwhile, here's my 7/22/17 assessment of how and why TrumpRussia came about. Takes an hour to explain, as the link goes back to the 1980s, sorry. The material is general, so if you already know it, maybe you don't need to listen. Upshot is this: DT wanted to be liked by the Kremlin since the 1980s, and really views his whole campaign and Presidency as a way to make Kremlin esp. Putin, to like him. So to him, there is no foul play. If DT is liked, it must be right to do.

Scary. Audio external link: https://www.brainout.net/downloads/wma/TrumpRussiaHowWhy.MP3

Turito | 27 Jul 2017, 13:02

This hypothesis makes a lot sense. I was adhering to the whole kompromat hypothesis. But, then, I was thinking as to how can you kompromat someone who seems to have no shame or guilt.

brainout | 08 Oct 2017, 01:54

The #TrumpRussia entries are now very many. Ties to #SevenMountains dominionism/dominionist in US (backing DT), and #ThirdRome in Russia are now so voluminous, you're best off searching on my @brainouty name plus any of those hashtags in twitter. MANY article now, lots of stuff happening.

This is the # 1 threat to the world today. Not North Korea or other usually-thought enemies.

brainout | 14 Aug 2017, 05:57

Movie was made in 1947, but applies wholly today, i.e., those Nazi rallies in Washington, Oregon, NYC and Charlottesville:

#TrumpRussia isn't Trump alone. It's a theological coalition of #SevenMountains Christians (most evangelicals hold to the anti-christ Rev17 harlot 'Seven Mountains doctrine, examples here: https://www.google.com/search?q=Seven+Mountains)

In Russia, this same doctrine is held by a large number of Russian odox, esp in the priesthood, who call themselves #ThirdRome . That name is of ancient vintage, going back to the 16th century after Constantinople fell. Russia feels it's the inheritor of Constantinople, and aims to REVIVE ROME.

Here's Putin's bid to be the Last Emperor (another myth key from the 16th century and before), showing the #ThirdRome doctrine:

This alliance between Russian and American Christians goes back to 2009, when Putin started courting them. DT, who just wants to get Putin to love him, started then aping whatever Putin said. Putin then newly rebuffed over the Manas Air Base by Hillary Clinton outnegotiating him, started his campaign against BHO and HRC, so DT did too.

DT doesn't know or care about Biblical issues. But he uses them to gain power. Pence is the guy who's into #SevenMountains, and most of American official Christianity with him. THESE are the real drivers of #TrumpRussia, and it's been going on for years.

TEA PARTY is #SevenMountains. Ted Cruz' dad is a proponent of it, just look up 'Seven Mountains' in Youtube and add 'Rafael Cruz'.

When Anonynomenon found Matt24-25 meter, I didn't know ANY of this. But the meter lead me to the research and you can easily find all this in Youtube, Google, etc.

I could say more, but right now just ponder the ideas broached here.

brainout | 10 May 2016, 23:33

NOTE: if you ever once believed Christ paid for your sins, use 1John1:9 as you read (i.e., 'I think I sinned, God'). Speeds comprehension (ergo my name 'brainout', reminds me to use the verse).

The Number 1 reason why Donald Trump is winning, is the apostasy of the pro-life crowd. This is Hosea 4:6, 8:7 and Galatians 6:7 in operation. Because, GOD says when life begins; it's a SPIRITUAL question, God's Right to Determine Life. God, never Caesar. Prolifers are busy trying to take away, God's Right to Life! So, we inherit the Trumpnado, Hosea 8:7, Gal6:7 (which points back to Hos8:7).

For Bible has always said, and for 3300 years Judeo-Christian law had reflected, the FACT that Abortion is not murder. For abortions spontaneously occur by the thousands, every day. Is God a murderer? Of course not!

Bible topic on that is here.

Videos most relevant, click here. Episodes 9-11 there are the most relevant, for they show in the original Hebrew text/Greek (and many translations, including Catholic ones) that a) abortion is a spiritual matter, and b) it's not murder. Of course, even the translations of Genesis 2:7 make this sequence clear: first body formed and outside, then God BREATHES life into it, and THEN you become a living SOUL. Not before.

So note well: to make ANY law or ANY provision pro or con abortion, interferes with the separation of Church and State. For it's a SPIRITUAL matter, not a legal one. Ooops.

Consequently, Judeo-Christian law in polities from Moses forward, alike recognize that abortion is a) not murder because BIBLE says you're not human until BORN when GOD breathes your newly-created soul into the exited fetus; and b) due to the fact it's a spiritual matter, not a legal one (which of course Bible also confirms). So even to this day, even the Roman Catholics who believe life begins at conception, have never authored a civil law claiming abortion murder.

So given this huge historical corroboration in both Bible and Judeo-Christian civil/criminal/case law on abortion, you'd think that the folks (starting in the 1960's) who instead covet Caesar's power in America, would be circumspect. By suddenly spitting on Bible and all that Judeo-Christian law, they claim SUPERIORITY over all past Jews, Christians, and even God Himself?

So, Hosea 8:7, Gal 6:7: 40 years later, in comes DT, the 'reply' to their blatant demand to DICTATE POLITICS to whomever would be the #GOP Presidential candidate: Rev 17 harlot 'prolife' movement in full thrall:

Their arrogance is unbridled. Now, we see in Donald Trump, the culmination of their bald hypocrisy: his positions violate everything in Scripture, including abortion, and they don't care. They back him anyway. For they want to take OVER the GOP. Prolife has nothing to do with it, and certainly not God or past Jews and Christians who KNEW what Bible says!

Anonynomenon | 11 May 2016, 01:14

Murder is a very serious charge. In many states, it is punishable by death as it should be. So if these retards are successful in classifying abortion as murder, does that mean that they are going to start convicting and executing anyone who takes part in abortion? That would be state sponsored murder.

brainout | 11 May 2016, 01:50

Yeah, no kidding. That's what ignorant DT was properly concluding when he had his interview with Chris Matthews:

'Properly', in that all the 40 years' political rallying that abortion IS murder, pandered from US pulpits, should therefore BE subject to punishment (yeah, if it's murder, then it should be juridicated as such).

But the power-mad prolifers don't want THAT, it will cost them votes with women. Duh. Yet more proof that God and the 'sanctity of life' is not important to them.. but rather, it's a tool to gain Rev 17 harlot political power. Fetuses are mere FOOTBALLS for these Titus 1:12 cretins.

Anonynomenon | 11 May 2016, 02:35

It's disgusting how Trump so desperately tries to talk his way around the 'abortion punishment' issue. He doesn't even have enough respect to tell us what he would do with his authority if he were to be elected. I have a real personal problem with people who beat around the bush like that. I'd rather vote for a used car salesman.

This prolife doctrine is one of the major issues that keeps the country divided. A nearly perfect libertarian candidate will NEVER get votes from the left or from Gen-x if they maintain a 'prolife' policy.

brainout | 11 May 2016, 02:50

Exactly. What's worse, is that 'prolife' is pandered in God's name, and isn't Biblical, so now millions of people associate that lie with God, and are even less inclined to investigate claims about Him!

Satan laughs his head off. It's so obvious: they use FETUSES to gain political power. And then want BIG government, in total contravention to republicanism, so to police SEX. Cuz that's what drives them: they hallucinate anyone seeking abortion MUST be doing so due to illicit sex! Whatever happened to 'God will handle it'? Gone.. with the wind.

So, 40 years later, they get Trumped: drool over the most provably-ugly, immoral, defrauding, disgusting man in political history. All because he won votes by white-supremacists or racist folks who wanna get back at Washington for working with some black guy.

Can't be more carnal than that. Breaks my heart. I've been GOP all my life. Crazy, when the Balaam's ass of the Dems, is more Biblical than what was supposed to be, the embodiment of 'Christian values'.

shadowimage | 29 Sep 2015, 03:12

Often perseverance of the saints will come up when explaining salvation, and calvinists or non-calvinists may quip: "well if you believe in eternal security you also believe in perseverance of the saints". Not quite.

Perseverance of the saints is a byproduct of predestination: so they are solely "persevered" as a result of being predestined -- and as such will never fall away. 🤢

Eternal security is also somewhat incorrectly defined, as most Christians will say something along the lines of "if you stop believing, you were never a Christian to begin with" (not being able to 'fall away'), so your eternal security is 'reliant' on the fact if you're consistently believing or being good... which allows more threshold to integrate with Calvinism.

But in an ironic way both cut out God and focus on the individual doing the actions: because it's reliant on YOU to keep hustling along, and psychologically condition yourself that you're "truly regenerated": potentially leading into a tunnel of depression as a result.

Eternal Security *correctly defined* is: when you believe for a second that Christ paid for your sins --and even IF you stop believing or blow up an orphanage, you're still saved because Christ did the work on the Cross. So Eternal Security --or-- "permanent salvation" *allows* you to 'fall away' and still be saved.

Therefore, Eternal Security is not reliant on God predestining you or "faith keeping", but the fact that you 'believed' for even just a mere second. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but that definition of Eternal Security does not jive with both predominant christianity and calvinism, which is why you often get the overlap between the two since they require the believer to "never fall away".

You can throw the "truly regenerated" and "never fall away" statements out of the window; if there was such a thing King David wouldn't have murdered Bathsheba's husband.

Anonynomenon | 29 Sep 2015, 04:55

You make some vitally important observations. I was raised to believe that salvation came by faith alone in Christ alone. No human works involved to gain or maintain salvation. For a while, I thought that the majority of "christian" denominations believed that, but now it seems that "faith alone in Christ alone"&"once saved always saved" is the minority. I guess my childhood was a bit sheltered in that aspect.

If these other so-called believers are mixing works with their faith, I wonder how many self proclaimed christians are truly saved? I suppose its futile to ask such questions in this age, but think about it...

If the Rapture were to happen today, would the world even notice?

There are so many false gospels that require action on the belivers part:

1. The faith+works gospel
2. The "salvation maintenance" lifestyle (faith+ intermittent works)
3. The "Let Christ into your heart" gospel
4. The water baptists
5. The tongue mumblers

It almost seems hopeless for so many people.

shadowimage | 29 Sep 2015, 06:39

I used to exclusively believe in works salvation because:

1. I wasn't paying attention to defined words & concepts
2. Nobody ever discreetly defined anything regarding salvation, so I never paid attention to it
3. Confused vocabulary is used along with prependisms
4. **the natural 'learned' human response** is to deny grace: "there's no way you can do XYZ and still go to heaven". Case in point, I've told people who weren't even believers and they vehemently recoiled in fury in response to grace.

As a result it hit me harder than anything else to date. Because I was so wrong, and it's so obvious.

I created one of the biggest articles going through every single contradiction and issue with works salvation here: underthebible.com/salvation.htm

Consider it a WIP since there's always something to add, but that covers *most* of it. It's funny because I always cringe when I hear key terms like: "repent" / "genuine" / "authentic" / "heart" / "faith". Repent should always be MIND CHANGE, genuine/authentic/true/actual don't exist and are prependisms to create an artificial layer on belief. Faith is not good for pistis (should always be 'believe/belief') unless we're referring to monadic pistis "THE faith".

Aha, you're either saved or not saved-- "truly" saved isn't a thing as you can't be re-saved, right? That's one problem with works salvation: there's no mention of being able to lose the holy spirit, or an imaginary holy spirit meter to determine when you're not saved / saved and what variables affect it simultaneously in real time. The problem is (and I have this problem a lot) is you hear phrases like that and you start to subconsciously utilize them (I'm not trying to be rude but to show how it starts to affect everyone--and I am no exception). It was the basis for my analysis on prependisms:

1. Actual
2. Authentic
3. Earnestly
4. Genuine
5. Real
6. Sincere
7. True

And of course these are words that are used to REPLACE 'believe' (pistis) entirely:

1. Admit
2. Accept
3. Acknowledge
4. Commit
5. Real
6. Invite
7. Trust

You can do any one of those and it is meaningless. I can *admit* Christ and not believe. I can *accept* Christ and not believe. I can *acknowledge* Christ and not believe. I can *commit* Christ and not believe. I can *invite* Christ (however the heck you would do that) and not believe. I can *trust* Christ and not believe.

The issue starts to become not so much salvation, but Bible Doctrine in your thinking. I mean, salvation is the greatest gift: but the focus isn't on it since the Christian life focuses on post-salvation. For a case scenario, let's say everyone in the world 'believed' instantly. That'd be great but instead of the lake of fire, people would be in heaven in outer darkness: retaining their original thinking. Possibly despising God or envying those who became kings.

If the rapture happened today, I would say yes. At this point right now because we have computers, loads of manuscripts and some fantastic teachings that were dug up after being on standby for so long-- the ratio of potential pleroma believers is probably higher than it has been for a long long time. I mean, you could probably count the individuals on a set of hands, but that's still a lot! When the rapture nears there'll be no pleroma believers.

I've always used the term "salvation upkeep" but I quite like "salvation maintenance". I've been meaning to get further into baptismal regeneration, but haven't had the chance yet since it's on low priority.

At any rate, perserverance of the saints is the *opposite* of permanent salvation.

brainout | 29 Sep 2015, 07:22

You both are raising some really good points. I just wanted to add re the Rapture idea that Bible nowhere says that millions of Christians will be on earth when it happens. Official Rapture term is exanastasis (sorry, still haven't reinstalled Bibleworks), I want to say it's somewhere in Phili 3:10-12, should be translated 'exit resurrection' but I think in translation, they leave out the 'exit' (exz in Greek).* It's surely not secret.

Logically, it seems like the LAST CHRISTIAN is the litmus. Last to complete whatever is the Body of Christ Father determines per Christ's prayer in John 17. Last KING, last one to mature to the Kingship criterion in Eph 4:12-13 (imo KJV has the best translation, ironically enough).

So the implication is, that there wouldn't be anyone else believing in Christ if Church Age went on one day longer; that no one who is a believer will grow spiritually one whit more, if the CA went on one day more. So that argues for a population of believers which has dwindled down to nothing, kinda like in Noah's day, and of course the Lord did draw that parallel.

If you see a better conclusion, let me know? Sorry to interrupt, please feel free to ignore my post if you want.

*EDIT: it's in Phili 3:11, have now installed BW5 again.

Anonynomenon | 29 Sep 2015, 18:17

@ shadowimage

By "truly saved", I meant whether those who believe they are saved, actually believe(d) that Jesus died for our sins. Nonetheless, I do see what you're saying. The use of certain words in place of others has a subtle suggestive power on the subconscious mind, almost like a form of mass hypnosis. Next thing you know, the hypnotized are out hypnotizing others.

Take for example, what I call the "cardiac invitation" gospel. Once I asked a preacher what exactly it meant to "invite Christ into one's own heart". The follow-up to that question was a long winded quasi-gnostic philosophical lecture. Had I not already been a believer, I would have been so hopelessly confused.

Its rare to find someone who teaches the real gospel message by itslef: to believe that Jesus died for our sins. I find it a bit scary that such a simple message is so widely distorted.

@ brainout

Feel free to chime in at anytime. I find your opinions to be thought provoking. 👍

I do see what you mean by the last Christian, but at the same time it could come down to the last maturing Christian(s). Lets say out of a roomful of believers, only 3 or 4 are actively learning and applying doctrine. Those 3 or 4 might be buying time for the inactive believers to start growing again. Even though God knows that those believers will at some point refuse to grow, the opportunity might still be offered to them. I'm just talking hypothetically here. I realize that such a situation would not be measurable from our perspective, and I do hope that there are more than a roomful of believers in this world; but seeing how rare it is to find a Church that still teaches the gospel (at least in USA), the question enters my mind quite frequently.

brainout | 29 Sep 2015, 19:42

Yes, last maturing Christian is the more likely. And yes, buying time. The calculation of what's fair and what's foreknown would be determinative, but only God knows the answer to all that. Hence Rapture is unpredictable, for we don't know when that 'ripeness' will occur.

And there will always be a few pastors who teach doctrine properly, even as 90-99% will always be apostate. But even an apostate pastor can occasionally impart Bible properly, so that buys time, too: for him, for his congregation, for those around them.

shadowimage | 30 Sep 2015, 06:06

I find that "truly saved" is used to question salvation, so it has become a polluted term. It's saved or unsaved, we don't need a third option.

The reason why that preacher started with "inviting / accepting into the heart" and then spiraling out of control into a bunch of procedures is because he never bothered to look into what it (discreetly) is, so the information in his mind has no boundaries and it spirals into chaos. I did the same thing years back, I'd end up with a mess of steps required to be saved, and say things like "accept with your heart", so the correct terms weren't even being used. I just subconsciously heard that and apparently repeated it.

When you don't have the information of "believe only = permanent salvation", it becomes a dog's breakfast and anything goes. And because anything goes, you end up with a "winded quasi-gnostic philosophical lecture". 🙄

I find there are christians who DO teach "once saved always saved even if you do whatever", but often institute faith-keeping. So soon as you stop believing, "you were never saved to begin with" so they just contradicted "once saved always saved". OR, my least favourite individuals who play the word games "you are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is not alone" <-- THEN YOU ARE NOT SAVED BY BELIEF ALONE!!!! It's a word game to say "believe only" but then quickly add the invisible strings while trying to claim they're NOT invisible strings. I know such a pastor who is arrogant like that, he talks about "grace" and then pulls the "faith without works is dead / the demons believe also" card. Of course believing without God's divine work in you is dead because you're a standby believer which has nothing to do with salvation. And the demons don't *believe* in Christ, they believe the doctrine of the trinity, there's no such thing as "demon faith". I got so sick of hearing that at one point I 1 Peter 5:7ed it to God via 1 John 1:9-- and what do you know. Awhile later he went on vacation and the whole week there was a new guest pastor each day who talked about salvation being on with belief and no works. It actually made some of the "works" congregational members upset and they left the church. Go figure.

Anonynomenon | 30 Sep 2015, 15:07

Yeah, people always use the "demons have faith" argument to attack 'faith alone'. My response to that is, demons (and some non-believers) have a total disregard for righteousness vs sin. In their eyes, their sins aren't actually sins at all, so how could they believe that Christ paid for sins if they don't believe that they even sin in the first place.

brainout | 30 Sep 2015, 20:40

That 'demons have faith' line has a different yet related meaning, when you consider that Greek pistis usually means DOCTRINE everywhere in the NT. 'The faith', we'd call it, as that's the Greek term too. So you can have the doctrine, Deut 30 and Romans 10:9-10, but do you BELIEVE in it?

Then there's the difference between believing God is One, versus believing IN Him. Sure, we all believe certain things are facts, but do we believe IN? I believe God exists, but do I believe IN Him to save me? Very different thing. Say you're married, and you have kids. You well believe you're married and have kids, but do you believe IN your spouse, your kids? Very different thing.

Hebrews 11:1 ties. We are on trial for the Doctrine of Christ, whether we believe IN it, IN His Thinking. I tried to show that in video, here.

And we all fail to believe IN what He says, de vez en cuando. But that's not a salvation issue, nor is James about how to be saved, but how to mature.

brainout | 19 Aug 2015, 23:30

There's a huge debate among Muslims, Jews, Christians as to WHERE in the Bible Christ is said to be God. It's not an easy question to answer, because the Bible is a literary work and uses clever rhetorical styles to say things. So you have to really think when you read, not just gloss over the text because you've heard it droned so many times from pulpits.

So this subforum is for that debate. To help get your thinking juices flowing, I posted a lot of videos showing how in John 8 alone, Christ says He's God over 50 times. I thought it was only 26 until someone in Youtube challenged me. The video series is in two places: click here for vimeo (quieter and easier to watch in context), or click here for Youtube (including many comments already made on the videos).

Then out of curiosity, I did a pan-OT search to prove the 'Son of Man' title He calls himself in the NT, is ONLY a quote from Daniel 7:13, whose whole chapter is a unique OT assertion of Him being God-Man, coming at the End of Time (origin, probably, of the Greek idea of deus ex machina, since Daniel was made hostage in 607BC under Nebuchadnezzar, per his own meter in Daniel 9.)

But you don't have to use that material. Do your OWN thinking and your OWN reasoning, arguing, debating. For it really seems God's more interested in YOU developing YOUR thinking YOUR way, than in whether you get the right answer. It's not that being right is unimportant, but rather Freedom is the FIRST righteousness, the sine qua non of Righteousness. That's what I'm now concluding from everything I read in Bible. Hence this frankforum!

Have at it!

brainout | 20 Aug 2015, 02:05

Christians roughly and often bitterly divide, over whether the Jews have a future in history; and particularly, whether God's Promises to the Jews in the OT, even still apply to them. Much of what has become modern history centers on this divide, especially from Constantine (when the Catholic church really began, by his fiat).. through the Reformation. Even long after the Reformation began, since its main proponents Calvin and Luther were so virulently anti-Semitic, whether in Catholic or Protestant lands, pogroms against the Jews continued to be based on a claim that God has rejected them. So you see, this is a rather toxic and important topic to analyze, especially now with all the attention focused on the Middle East.

There's a running and odd historical trend from the first-century forward: interest favoring the Jews and interest in learning Bible, correlate positively. So, when interest in learning Bible declines, interest in protecting the Jews declines as well. When this decline occurs, a rise in religious institutionalism accompanies it, which you can usually demonstrate by looking at Church History, especially the 'councils'. During such a rise, the freedom to get and read Bible for itself, diminishes. Then comes some kind of war, when the variant religionists fight each other. The wars of Europe mostly register these changes, and of course the pogroms follow or precede. Good book tracing these is the Atlas of Bible and Christianity edited by Dowley, and also Christopher De Hamel's History of the Bible.

So: among Christians, the majority, Calvinists and Catholics, many Anglican, Seventh-Day-Adventist, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and even some Baptist groups -- these generally hold that when Israel rejected Christ at His First Advent, she forfeited all the eschatological promises made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David -- so Church instead inherits those 'covenants' or 'promises'. This majority group's position, is often categorized as 'Reformed Theology' or more aptly, 'Replacement Theology', in Christendom.

A large and vocal minority, often called 'Dispensationalists' -- who also span many denominations or 'independent' groups that defy precise classification -- these 'Dispies' usually hold variants of the idea that the eschatological promise to the Jews is YES future and YES separate from the promise aka covenant to Church, an entity created by Christ postmortem based on Matthew 16:18 and ratified in John 17. Consequently, within this group, there is a debate over when the Church covenant begins and ends; and consequently when the one to Israel, recommences and finishes. The Church 'Age' or Covenant's commencement is generally agreed to begin at Pentecost, though some think it doesn't begin until the appointment of the apostle Paul (with what proof I do not know, I can't find any Biblical justification for a starts-with-Paul contention).

Ergo, most 'Dispies' would tell you that due to 1 Thess 4:17, there will be a 'Rapture' (Anglicized version of Vulgate in that verse, Latin rapiemur translating Greek harpagesometha), and this 'Rapture' ends Church and begins the Tribulation, which is the last 7 years promised to Israel per Daniel 9:27. After which, she is still 'queen of the nations' in a literal Millennium.

Sad to say, the Biblical scholarship by both Replacement and Dispie 'camps', even among their degreed folk.. is abysmal. So you end up with silly and scurrilous movies like 'Left Behind' and 'Da Vinci Code', and all manner of related print nonsense, which have nothing to do with the Bible text, or even with either side in this 'debate'.

Of course, most Jews hold they have a future promised by God too, and most believe in a literal 1000 years which Messiah starts. They disagree whether Jesus is the Messiah=Christ (Heb=Greek), so if disagreeing, think there is only the latter 'Advent'. Surprisingly, some Muslims hold that Jesus is the Messiah (as herald of a 2nd coming of Mohammed, though some don't believe Mohammed will return) -- but claim the Millennium belongs to them, rather than to the Jews.

Replacement Theology holds that it belongs to Church, if a literal millennium. For example Calvin thought it means replacing the Catholic Church of Revelation 17 (which text isn't necessarily Catholic, but definitely Roman). Many in the Replacement camp deny a literal Millennium altogether, chiefly Catholics, since Origen allegorized Revelation 7 against the plain text of Jewish tribes, to mean only Christians; so did Augustine, in other respects. (The links are searches, so you can select sources you respect.)

So this thread relates to these positions. If you want to know where I stand, it's YEAH Pre-Trib Rapture, because the timing of the Tribulation is a set of accounting books which has been tracked since Genesis 1, in the Hebrew meter; because every Chapter of the NT references it as a historical backdrop, and every Chapter 1 of every NT book continues the OT timeline: in particular, Paul creates an annual prophetic timeline for Church 62nd-week time loop playing directly on Daniel 9:26. Documented in videos (ongoing project), to wit:

• Basic math, here; master that first, or you'll not be able to follow the meter. Notice the core is built around Genesis 5, so now you know why all those Bible dates are so annoying and plentiful. BIBLE'S TRACKING TIME. Question is, why? Well.. countdown to Messiah, a promised 2100 years, which any Jew can explain (they think it's only 2000, rounding it off). Christians don't know anything about this, but it's all over Scripture.

That's the 'dispensation' the BIBLE accounts:

• 2100 years for the goyim = Adam to Abraham, and it matches the Bible timeline, which is tracked, Abram becoming mature year 2046 from Adam's fall; then
• 2100 years for the Jews = Abraham to Christ, and He's born 4103 from Adam's fall;
• then Messiah comes (yeah, and He died per the tracking in Bible, year 4136 from Adam's fall),
• with the Millennium then supposed to be 53.5+3.5 years away but instead 64 years away,
• to pay back 2100-2046 (plus a 3.5 year loss owing to late start of 1st Temple), also tracked from Moses in Psalm 90, forward. This way the shortening of 'Gentile' time is made up. So each 'group' gets a total of 2100 years.
• TWO 'dispensations', essentially.
• But Christ being rejected, took out the Time Bridge, since the last 7 of the 2100 for the Jews, hasn't played.
• For Daniel 9:26 ends at 37 AD, but He died 7 years prior, so that's why Israel is owed seven years (586 BC Temple down +70+70+483=37AD, the accounting begins with Temple down not Nehemiah's return, since the Decree is GOD's, not a human King, Daniel 9:2 reading Jeremiah 25 and 29, and Daniel 9:24. Thus the two 70 reimbursements, then 69 weeks, with the Trib supposed to follow after).
• Ergo, Church is a Time Bridge. So THREE dispensations total, prior to Millennium. How long the third one lasts, is not stated, as its completion depends on bodies, not set time, per Father's discretion, John 17:20ff.

• Moses begins tracking both 2100's in Genesis 1, here:
• Moses creates a panoramic tracking of both the Adamic and Abrahamic 2100's using sabbatical meter accounting in Psalm 90, here.
• Isaiah tracking Moses, here.
• Daniel tracking Isaiah, here.
• Mary tracking Daniel, here.
• Matthew tracking Moses' endpoint and Mary, here.
• Luke tracking Matthew and Paul through Mary, here.
• Mark tracking Luke, here.
• Paul tracking Luke through Mary then satirizing the future history of Church, here. Map of his rhetorical style, is here. It's a lot of material to slog through, sorry. Took me over a year to write.

Then, in the Year of the Four Emperors,

• Peter tracking Paul's Ephesians meter to make a marching song out of Church prophecy, here.
• Jude tracking Peter, here.
• The writer of Hebrews tracking Mark tracking Luke tracking Paul, here.
• Then, beginning 7 years after the Temple fell just after the Year of the Four Emperors (August 70 AD),
• John tracks the writer of Hebrews, Paul, Peter, Jude, Mark, and then back to Daniel, here.

In short, there's a lot of tracking using the same OT timeline system, a kind of rolling calendar, here's where we are on the time map. Now, is that material correctly interpreted? Probably not. But until I find where the errors are, I'm sticking with it. If you find any, let me know!

Else, debate as you will. I won't jump in unless you ask. Frankforum's supposed to be about YOU, as my stuff is already 'out there'. Enjoy!

Anonynomenon | 26 Aug 2015, 01:16

Hi there.

I'm a fellow pre-tribber. You've done alot of studying on the subject. Very impressed :mrgreen: Since nobody's debating yet, I'd like to ask you about Acts 2:17's citation of Joel 2:28. Joel was talking about Israel's reception of the Holy Spirit in the Millennium, right? So was the prophecy duplicated for the Church? Surely Israel will still recieve this blessing. Wouldn't that make the Church a preview of sorts for the Millennium?

What got me thinking about this was the dispensations you outlined: 2100 years for gentiles, 2100 years for Israel. So why only 1,000 years for the Millennium ❔

brainout | 26 Aug 2015, 02:36

Good questions. The actual Mill period is 1050, same as before (1050+1050=2100). So the Gog Magog begins when the 1000 years have ended, get it? From Rev? As for why it's not 2100, I don't know. The meter is always the same, stressing a 1050, not 2100 ending; even when John plays on Daniel 9, see JohnDatelineMeters.pdf or the later LukeDatelineMeters.pdf. Or 'htm' or 'doc', but the latter two require Bibleworks fonts, to read the Greek.

Many Jews see the last 1050 which they call 1000, as part of a 2100 which they call 2000, belonging to 'Messiah'. Google on 'Age of Messiah' to see that. Oddly, you might find some Muslim sites with that too. I remember finding one some years back, want to say it was haroun yahya, but maybe not.

As for the tie between Acts and Joel, yeah. Teachers vary, but the idea was that Israel's Filling would have a physical component, like it did at Pentecost, but for Church it doesn't. For Church the keywords differ: plerow and pleroma, not goofy or ecstatic. Those NT keywords are the same as for the Lord, and He was never drooling/dancing like Saul or David; the OT Greek term for them was pimplemi (like being filled after a good meal, same as Hebrew sabea).

Anonynomenon | 26 Aug 2015, 04:43

Well here's a funny idea. If the Millennium belongs to the Messiah, what if human history is actually bisecting a hypothetical 2,100 year Messianic reign? Pre-trib theology is dependent on the Church acting as a spacer between the cross and the Trib. I've seen some of your clips on the Genesis restoration, the possibility is thought provoking. Jesus is King of kings, surely He must have ruled over Lucifer and friends as such before they fell into sin. According to the Genesis restoration theory, the Cosmos were destroyed and rebuilt (I think it was literally flooded with water), we know that the same thing will happen with fire after the Gog and Magog revolt at the end of the Millennium. Water first then fire. Maybe the kingdom of God is like a Millennial sandwich, lol.

brainout | 26 Aug 2015, 05:58

Possibly. The thing is, what if any is the relationship to the fact that now history is almost 2000 years post Cross? Maybe it's just coincidence, or wishful thinking, but if there's some kind of balancing to Jewish time, then we're due for something. Maybe not the Rapture, but.. I don't know. Rapture cannot be predicted, as it's based on bodies, not time, John 17:20ff being the criterion, echoed in Eph 4:12-13, idea of the 'destination of life', katantaw being the fullness of the maturation of Christ (which seems like a corporate thing, since no individual will mature as much as He did).

Paul measures the new 490 from Christ's Birth, which shocks me. His dateline picks up where Mary left off, in Ephesians 1:4 at 56 (age of Christ=syllables), so that would be our 59 AD. Paul and the NT writers have their own Anno Domini which coincidentally tallies with our own because Varro made the same mistake in reverse as Dionysius made in retrospect; but to the NT writers, the A.D. is measured based on how old Christ should have been pre-adjustment for David's delay (born 4106 from Adam's Fall), or would be after that adjustment (actually born Chanukah 4103 from Adam's fall, ties to Haggai 2). I've not worked out all the details to make the conversion, but usually 6 years works.

Anonynomenon | 30 Aug 2015, 02:34

Have you found any reason to believe that the Church's present duration of nearly 2000 years some how balances to Jewish time? Honestly that would kind of scare me. I would have to reassess my understanding of the rapture if any such evidence did exist. What could that mystery event be if not the start of a new dispensation? I would think that the imminent rapture would rule out any sort of balancing.

brainout | 30 Aug 2015, 03:51

We can't predict the Rapture. It's based on Church-Body maturation, Eph 4:12-13. So if it happens to be (which God foreknows) of the same duration as Jewish time, so what? Could be, might not be. Common Jewish position is Messiah's time lasts 2000 years. But Bible doesn't say anything about a Messianic dispensation that I can find.

The only thing is, Paul newly benchmarks a 490 at Christ's birth. So the 1050's would have to be accounted that way too, although not solely that way. David had six time grants, none of which started with his birth, but all of which play to when he was crowned at Hebron, then over all Israel, then when he died. So there are 490s keyed to those dates, and so too, 1000's. His own Hebron crowning occurs on the 1050th anniversary of when Abram became AbRAHam.

So what are the benchmarks for Christ? I'm not sure. I plotted all this 10 years ago (before I knew of the Hebrew/Greek meter) in GeneYrs.xls. If you see a mistake, let me know?

Anonynomenon | 30 Aug 2015, 04:34

If Paul was tagging Christ's birth, was he indicating the start of a new 2100? Can one dispensation coexist within another dispensation?

brainout | 30 Aug 2015, 05:02

Yeah, a new 1050, anyway; that's why there is a Rapture, the last Jewish 1050 didn't end. Underlying math is here. The math I knew before I knew the meter, and the spreadsheet maps the math; some of those videos predate the meter, most are after it. The meter uses the math. The videos help you orient to the math, but it's a lot to slog through, sorry! Took me six years to even understand, lol.

CAUTION: I know there are mistakes somewhere. There have to be. I've just not found them yet. If you see any, please let me know.

Paul's reset of the meter to Christ's birth post-Cross is complicated to explain, I did several video series on it, but you'll die from watching them -- they make me barf, anyway. Just use the spreadsheet: it ASSumes that the new 490 began at Christ's death, but Paul retroactively dates it to His Birth.. if I'm reading Paul right. So the spreadsheet's AD end points are 30 years later than Paul uses. I have yet to correct that.

Still not satisfied that I'm reading it right. Nothing of what I've shown, is 100% certain. This research is in a first-pass stage, needs a LOT more testing (including the spreadsheet). The only certainty is that YES there is a pattern based on 490+70+490=1050 x 2 = 2100.

Anonynomenon | 30 Aug 2015, 14:33

Ok. Im a little confused now. You're saying that Paul was tagging Jesus' birth as the start of a new 490, when Israel was still in its last 490 according to Daniel. Was this new 490 supposed to overlap the last 33 years of Daniel's 490? It can't pertain to the Church, since that didnt start for another 33 years.

Or does Paul's 490 take effect after the 70 weeks are up? In that case, Paul was tagging Millennial time.

brainout | 30 Aug 2015, 20:42

Yeah, you're hitting squarely on the issue. YES Christ was born during the last 490, see '4103' in the spreadsheet. It was a scheduled thing. Long prior, Moses listing the countdown from Genesis 1 meter forward, the Mill was supposed to begin 4200 after Adam's fall, the idea being that by then 2100 years for the goyim then 2100 for the Jews would have elapsed.. including, Messiah's lifetime. His lifetime was supposed to be 40 years. Added to that, was the repayment for Abraham maturing early, 53.5 years. So, 4200-93.5 would mean an initially planned birth of 4106. But then came David, and he died age 77 (1Kings 6:1 tells you that if you do the math from 1Kings 2:39), and then Solomon didn't start the Temple until 3.5 years later (ibid). So now 53.5+3.5, or 57. So now Messiah has to be born 3.5 years earlier, Chanukah 4103 (Haggai 2 witty prediction, 357 years before 24 Chislev at sundown would be known as Chanukah).

So now, 4200-53.5-3.5-40=4103 birth, so then He should have died 40 years later=endpoint in Daniel 9, 586BC+70+70+483=37 AD. But, He was rejected so died 7 years earlier, hence two sevens, not one, remain.

Paul's Eph1:3-14 meter addresses all this. How to make up for the 'credit remaining' on Israel's time, since due to Him begin rejected, Church had to be inserted (see also the prior Romans 9-11). Paul's meter ties also to Daniel 9, 434 syllables (62 weeks) which leaves 56 in ellipsis at the end, same as his dateline of 56 (first sevened paragraph), playing on Mary's ending 56 in her meter of the Magnificat, 56 being the sevened equivalent of that 57. The full explanation is bigger, but I'm trying to simplify it.

So in order for that to balance, Paul has to be retroactively dating the 490 from Christ's BIRTH. But the COVENANT is not tied to a beginning of a 490, even as Abraham matured 2046 from Adam's Fall, not evenly at 2100. So, yeah there is an overlap, and that's been known (in other ways) in theology for a long time: that the 40-year period starting at Pentecost 30 AD, was still part of the 'age of Israel' as modern Dispies would term it, as well as the start of the 'Age of Church'.

It's this overlap, which preoccupies the writers' meter in the NT. They were plotting it out, just as Mary was. For look:

If there's a 53.5 credit owed the goyim on Jewish time, then DURING Jewish time, that credit has to play. For JEWISH time started 53.5 years early, owing to Abraham maturing 490 years after Noah got his 490.. so time could continue. So now how does the overlap get paid? That's why Mary ends the Magnificat with Abraham, cleverly ending her meter at Christ's Age 56. Why? That's 16 years after He was scheduled to die. Yeah, but He was scheduled to die 57 years before the Mill was to begin. So like all the OT writers, she's doing an equidistant pun. Sample of that punning style is partly shown here, but I'm not yet done with the piece. It might be more easily seen in htm.

So look: He really dies 64 years prior to the Scheduled Mill. So everyone wondered how that extra 7 years would be made up (and it is, we know with hindsight, during 64-70AD). So the writers were working that accounting into their Chapter 1 meters just as the OT writers did, just as Mary did, as a kind of spiritual/prophetical GPS (here's where we are on the old Jewish TimeMap, even though we are Church and Rapture can't be predicted). Because the Rapture's varying possible balancing deadlines were still of doctrinal value. So Paul charted them.

Notice it's a WHAT IF the Rapture happened charting, which he continues throughout the meter until it ends '62 weeks' later in a Groundhog day: showing that AT ANY TIME the Rapture can happen, starting with balancing to the Abrahamic credit. And, by the way, if the Rapture doesn't occur, here's a satire on what happens in Church during those specific years. Really biting satire. So biting, I had to do a video series explaining that doc, so folks could test the data first hand.

What creeps me out, is that Peter turned that passage into a marching song at the start of the 'Year of the Four Emperors', interpersing his text with the Pauline text. I've not worked out all the cadences, but enough is shown so you can see interleaved cadence is intended. Jude then patterns off Peter, then Mark upon Jude and Luke, and then the Writer of Hebrews on the foregoing, all within 12 months.

So there will be errors, can't be wholly right. Yet, the basic design of the meter is also certain, once you crunch the numbers from Genesis through Rev.

Anonynomenon | 30 Aug 2015, 23:55

Um, wow. I'll have to re-read that a few times before I can begin to grasp that.

But what if Paul was tagging a new dispensational age at Christ's birth, like the Age of the Living Temple. I doubt those 33 years before the Church had any Millennial quality, and we know as you said that the Church began with Pentecost, however the common factor between the birth of Christ and the Church is that they are both the Temple. Jesus was born on Chanukah and Paul said that we are being fitted together as the Temple. Where exactly (chapter and verse) did Paul tag Jesus' birth? Was he talking about the Temple?

This goes back to Joel and Acts. If the Church was never opened, would Israel have been called the temple? We know the stone temple was destined for destruction so what would take its place in that situation?

brainout | 31 Aug 2015, 00:42

Yeah, well my pastor had classified (and he wasn't the only guy) Christ's Lifetime as a separate Dispensation. That's distinct from the 490, which he didn't know about, and the covenants, actually. A dispensation is the time period over which a particular covenant, spans. So my pastor inter alia, was thinking there was a special short dispensation for His Lifetime, after which comes Church, but the Age of Israel still overlaps for that last 40 years. The last clause is a commonly held one. Bible seems slightly different from all of them.

Problem is, I can't find yet if Paul's doing that, accounting Christ's Life as a separate dispensation. Maybe he is. I just don't know. All this is original stuff based on the SOURCE TEXT so there is a ton of testing to do, of the results.

As for what was to happen absent Church, that we know: 2100 years for the Jews, and then Mill begins. So had Israel accepted Him, He would have died on time at age 40 seven years later, then the 'times of the Gentiles' of 50 then 7, then Mill. Of the 7, half belonged to the Jews, 'time of Jacob's trouble' as well. So the 7 is split. For the Temple was 3.5 years late in starting, so it was Jewish time in effect given to the Gentiles, so now reversed in the credit.

That's not how you meant 'Temple', but that's the accounting in the OT, all based on Time. There was no Temple=Body of Christ promise to Israel. She was promised Bride, but playing Vashti, refused to come when He came and called. But just as Vashti was never divorced, so Israel will still be Queen of the Nations during the Mill (to use Jewish terminology).

Anonynomenon | 31 Aug 2015, 01:27

You must be talking about hupostasis. Clarence Larkin wrote about that in his book The Dispensational Truth. I've been of the opinion lately that we are currently still in hupostasis. No, Christ is not here in the flesh, but we are His body and in Him we are the Temple. Daniel 9 says that the Messiah must be cut off AFTER the 62 weeks, but you're saying He died 7 years beforehand. Well, it's well after the 62 weeks, and we are still here until the rapture. That must mean that we are still in a hupostatic state. I'm not saying that we are God in the flesh like Christ, but we represent Him here in a way that no priest has ever been able to. Daniel 9 called for hupostasis, and Israel's rejection of Christ called for an extension of hupostasis else Daniel 9 would be violated, hence the Church.

As a result, since Jesus died at 33 rather than 40, the quality of hupostasis was expanded from individual to collective.

brainout | 31 Aug 2015, 02:01

Now, I don't know what Larkin said, I only know what Bible says, so if you want to go into more detail, please use Scripture?

Using Scripture: Hupostasis is His Nature being God-Man, Daniel 7:13. It's a keyword, Psalm 40:6 quoted in Hebrews 1:3, 3:14, explained in 10:5, quoted again as a nickname for Him in Heb 11:1 (metered) versus the covenant applying during a period of time="dispensation". So in Bible, the term represents His Nature.

Yes, Messiah was to be cut off at the end of 62 weeks, but instead died at the end of the 61st week, successful, so still on time. And that's why there is Church, as a TIME BRIDGE back. Paul documented it all in Ephesians, yes we represent Him as Body, 2 Cor 5:20 inter alia. But it's another legal term for BRIDE. Yes, we get the same spiritual life He had, and will have a body like His at death, 1John 2:26-3:2, Ephesians 5. Nothing mystical about it. So if you're calling that 'union' hupostasis in a figurative sense, okay -- but the term in Bible and theology technically only refers to His Nature.

Daniel 9 didn't call for hupostasis, it's a Greek term and Daniel wrote that chapter in Hebrew. It was always forecast that Messiah would be God taking on Human Nature, ever since Adam, Gen 3:15. But the term hupostasis is born much later, and means one nature standing under another one (hupo under, stasis standing).

Now, maybe you mean something else and I'm misreading you?

Anonynomenon | 31 Aug 2015, 02:50

I meant it in a figurative sense, but it was probably a misuse of the word. Larkin didn't say much about hypostatic union other than identifying it as its own dispensation.

My concern is that Daniel 9:26 doesn't say that the Messiah is to be cut off BY the 62nd week but AFTER (we'achera) the 62nd week was over. If Jesus was killed 7 years early, that sounds like a Satanic attempt to violate Daniel 9:26. With the Church still here, we are His body/representatives, He is in union with us on a Spiritual level. I see that as the Messiah still being here AFTER the 62 weeks until the Rapture.

I see it as a legal loop hole.

brainout | 31 Aug 2015, 03:03

No, it's at the end of; after in the sense of expiry of a SCHEDULE, not a law. Yeah, and sure Satan tried to end it early, but Matthew 16:18, Christ unilaterally contracts to make Church AFTER His Death, per Father's Discretion, John 17:20ff.

Yeah, a loophole. For there was to then follow 50 for the Gentiles, then 7 for the Trib anyhow, then Mill. But the 50 gets elongated by Matt16:18, NEW COVENANT to pay for NEW PEOPLE, namely 'whoever believes in their word', John 17:20ff. So the untold billions of new sins Christ must agree to pay for in advance, only He can authorize. Then Father determines how MANY. So not a time deadline, but a new bodies criterion.

So in modern terms, it's a way to avoid Mistrial. New covenant of promised future BODIES, which if Satan can defeat fulfillment, God loses and Satan wins. For bodies have to be born, have to be saved, have to mature.. the meanwhile, the Sword of Damocles Time Rule of someone needing to supermature by every 490 else Time Ends, continues to favor Satan in the Trial. Couldn't be more dramatic. Couldn't be harder to accept or believe. 🙀

I tried to cover that issue beginning here, and then trying to ferret out the MisTrial issues, here and here. Search on 'Mistrial' (with or without caps). Too much reading, but I was thinking out loud. You're already thinking in that vein, so you don't need to read it.

brainout | 11 Sep 2015, 10:47

In Text Crit forum I started a thread on Daniel 9, since its focus is meter, which is a function of whether we have the right words. It demonstrates how Daniel 9 is the raison d'etre for Pre-Trib Rapture. It's an ACCOUNTING issue: Israel had seven more years due than could be played during her time, because Messiah died seven years early. So-called 'Christian scholarship' is so bad with the math in Daniel 9, this extra seven years gets misaccounted century after century. Waste of man hours, money, angst. For it's just a simple problem of time allotted which did not play. Provable. Mathematical.

So if you want, you can debate that thread's contents, here or there.

brainout | 25 Sep 2016, 15:28

From thread started here: https://twitter.com/~/status/779941379178889216

Upshot was we went in circles, when Dan12:11-12 were clear all along. So here, am reconstructing. If one had time, it would be fairly easy to turn this into a realistic, Biblical movie or novel.

But for now, just the timeline...

Day 1 Rapture/Trib Question is what day that is, whether a Jewish holiday to alert Jews/converts. The Two Witnesses appear in Temple grounds, keeping everyone away. Presumably they explain. If memory serves there is also some pair of angels flying at noon in every time zone, right now I forget where that is in Rev.

Day 1095.75 (so Day 1096 at noon) Three Trib years have elapsed. Revelation 9 opens, Satan gets key to Abyss, 200 million DEMON ARMY then punishes all the unbelievers for the next 150 (or 155, if Elul in there) days.

1461 days remain to End Trib.

Day 1185 Folks who miscalculate the exit window 1335 in Daniel 12:12 using lunar years (2520 days in 7 lunar years) will mistakenly think the window opens first, here. So they will try to leave. It might be rough going.

1371.75 days remain to End Trib.

Day 1221.75 (so day 1222 at noon) Exit window for the end of the FLIGHT phase opens. It will last until the Abomination is set up on Day 1266.75. (Count backwards from 2556.75 to each of the two numbers in Dan 12:11-12 to get these values, remember Hebrew day starts piggybacked on day before, at sundown.)

1335 days remain to End Trib.

Day 1230 Jews who miscalculate using lunar years but otherwise 'get it' that the 1290 is to be counted BACKWARDS from the end of the 7 years, will think their exit window ends here. So they still get out. Problem is, if any remain afterwards, they will think they cannot get out, though they still can.

1326.75 days remain to End Trib.

Day 1245.75 or 1250.75 The five-month Rev 9 Demon torture of unbelievers ENDS. Now they are no longer restricted.

1311 or 1306 days remain to End Trib.

Day 1260 Two Witnesses are killed by Abaddon leader of those demons (Satan? Rev 9 sounds like it's someone else who was chained up with the others.) Earth must see this on TV or something, cuz the celebration is worldwide.

1296.75 days remain to End Trib.

Day 1261.75 Some kind of Jewish holiday? On which, what happens?

1295 days remain to End Trib.

Day 1263.5 (so around dawn on 1264th day), Two Witnesses resuscitated, astonish and anger world, God calls them to come up. World sees, is ticked off. They go up, big earthquake.

1293.25 days remain to End Trib.

Day 1266.75, So noon 6 days after their death, despite whatever is the earthquake damage, Abominating Talking Statue is flown in (or arrives some other way, likely flamboyant), to be put in the Holy of Holies.

• THIS 1266.75 IS THE LAST EXIT DAY, END OF THE FLIGHT PHASE. Get caught in Jerusalem after noon, and you can't get out. So you stay to fight, awaiting that general Thieme talked about (Zech 12:6, mistranslated, Hebrew is et-aluph 🤠).

1290 days remain to end Trib.

Day 1275.75 or 1280.75 Rev 11:2's 42 months must include the long months; so instead of 1260, 42 months ends at 1275.75 or 1280.75, if one of the remainder 6 months includes Elul. Does a holiday occur here?

1281 or 1276 days remain to end Trib.

Day 1278.375 Exact Trib midpoint on solar calendar.

1278.375 days remain to end Trib.

Day 1280.75 Is this a Jewish holiday of some kind?

1276 days remain to end Trib.
Perhaps Rev 11:2's 42 months occurs here, not in first 3.5 years;
instead of 1260, 42 months ends at 1275.

Day 1295 Some kind of Jewish Holiday? On which, what happens?

1261.75 days remain to end Trib.

Again, this is only the bare bones timeline. Feel free to amend, add, complete, etc. Anony's goal was to see what Holidays bookend it at start and 1295. But Daniel 12:11-12 are pretty unequivocal about the Abomination entrance date, so at least that's likely resolved.

What's creeping me out, is that this story is starting to write itself. It makes so much sense to me now. I used to hate prophecy with a passion. But after seeing how DT is, how goofball and WILLFULLY BLIND his adherents, all bets are off: can't deny this stuff plausibility, anymore.

Something about facing prophecy makes the reality of God and His Word so palpable, it hurts and I want to faint. It's hard to type.

I did a very early and poor version of this back 15 years ago, SatSpin.htm

A better more technical piece but still (like everything) in need of massive edit, is RevPlay.htm. It has an outline doc in it which is sometimes helpful. My memory of Rev was much better then too.

Anonynomenon | 25 Sep 2016, 19:26

What if the Two Witnesses die after the Abomination has already been in the Temple for 30 days? 1290-1260=30

After the Beast's intro in Rev 13:1-5, he blasphemes the tabernacle (first), then makes war with saints (starting w/ Two Witnesses).

The Beast's 42 months could actually be 1275 days if you factor in the long months. So perhaps the first 15 days of Beast's 42 months are nested in last 15 days of Two Witnesses' 1260.

1245+(15)+1260

So going with my idea of 35 days calm before Two Witnesses minister:

35+1245+(15)+1260

This way, Two Witnesses die 1295 days into Tribulation, 30 days after Abomination is set up (1290 days before Second Advent). Depending on Tribulation start date, this would make the death of Two Witnesses relevant to Maccabean Chanuka or end of Unleavened Bread, leading into Feast of Weeks.

brainout | 26 Sep 2016, 01:58

No, the Abomination is put into the Temple after they are dead, see Rev13.

Anonynomenon | 26 Sep 2016, 02:37

Yeah, I see what you mean now.

I'm still concerned about how the Feasts might have a part in the Tribulation. After all, Talmud says Millennium starts with Yom Teruah. That makes perfect sense if Yom Teruah is the Rosh Hashanah (being the start of Adamic year). Since Millennium was scheduled to happen 4200 solar years post Fall of Adam, it would only be logical that the Millennium starts on Rosh Hashanah.

So if (maybe/maybe not) the Rosh Hashanah Theory for the Original Schedule is correct, then Daniel 12 must have been crafted to fit Rosh Hashanah.

brainout | 26 Sep 2016, 03:21

Well, you blow the shofar for other holidays, too.. I forget which ones. Yom Kippur? Passover? Booths?

Anonynomenon | 26 Sep 2016, 03:29

Ok, So for the moment, I am focusing on the Talmudic Rosh Hashanah Theory, since it does relate to 4200 schedule. My assumption is that Dan 12 is crafted to fit Rosh Hashanah.

So Rosh Hashanah/Feast of Trumpets/Yom Teruah, on the Bible's solar calendar is the Autumnal Equinox. Usually Sept 22.

Day of Sept 22 -1335 days= Jan 25th. This is the day that Jesus was presented in the Jerusalem Temple (Luke 2:21-33). Jesus was born on Dec 24/25th +8 Days for circumcision +33 more days for purification= Jan 25th.

It seems important, but it cant really be tied to the Abomination, which would logically come 45 days later.

If we instead calculate Sept 22 -1290= Mar 10th or Adar 20th. I don't know if Adar 20 is significant.

brainout | 26 Sep 2016, 03:31

Another thing: 1295 - 365.25x3 leaves 199.25. Were it 185 or 180, you'd have an equinox. So if Rapture started 199.25- one of those prior, wouldn't you hit an equinox? OR.. Passover? OR.. Booths

Or updated.. Chanukah? Surely they blew the shofar for that.

And be sure to match even character. For example, the big mistake Dispies make, is to call Daniel 9:26 'fulfilled' at Palm Sunday. NO. Text says clearly Messiah is CUT OFF, so DEATH is the event, and the hanging chad 7 they explain away by using lunar year calcs. SLOPPY SCHOLARSHIP and you can't balance your checkbook that way, either.

So BIRTH to BIRTH. DEATH to DEATH. CROWNING to CROWNING (except when BORN king, so then crowning and birth align).

There's no parallel between Mill and circumcision.

Anonynomenon | 26 Sep 2016, 03:36

Here is a good one. If Talmudic Jews are looking for Messiah on Rosh Hashanah, then a Passover Rapture would be deadly.

April 4 -1290 days= Sept 22 aka Rosh Hashanah. In this case, the Abomination would be standing on the Feast of Trumpets when Jews would be looking for Messiah. The Beast could use this to call himself messiah, but first, Jews would have to get their calendar right.

brainout | 26 Sep 2016, 03:53

Well, Satan's even more cheeky than Trump, could CORRECT the calendar to make his propaganda, even as he CORRECTED the woman after she added the 'touch it' fake criterion.

So look (going back to your 1295):

1. Pretend Rapture actually happens on vernal equinox.
2. 14 days after that, Passover Begins. By then, Satan&Co. have announced correct cal to the world, and they all scramble to celebrate passover. We're all Jews now. That marginalizes those real believers who can SEE it's Satan&Co. ruse (i.e., the 144K).
3. Three years later, on anniversary, it's now 1095.75+14=1109.75. Demon boys are still persecuting real unbelievers who if we all are Jews, are pegged unfaithful Jews. Like Donald Sutherland at end of Invasion of Body Snatchers.
4. Real Day 1221.75 still occurs, so exit window opens. But now it's (get this) 112 days later. So Pentecost+56, 9th Av.
5. 45 days later, after the 2Witnesses dead and risen, Abom flown in. It's the 24th of Elul. Elizabeth conceived on 25 Elul, maybe at sundown prior. HERALD. Statue as HERALD like John the Baptist. For they never pretend it's Christ. Satan would know what even a brainout could learn from Luke 1:26-36, that Elizabeth conceived 25 Elul.
6. 11 days later is Rosh HaShanah, and your count is now 1277.75.
7. 10 days later is Yom Kippur, and your count is 1287.75.
8. By 1295 you're in the middle of Booths.

Or, count back from some event you think ought to be a holiday.
Like, Abom flown in/set up. What holiday ought that to be? Chanukah seems most apt. Temple the Temple Depicts. Or, even better for the HERALD value and propaganda: Pentecost.

Count back 70 days, it's vernal equinox. 100 days prior, the 3rd anniversary of Rapture, for 1266.75 is 1095.75 (3 years' elapse) +171.

Gives new meaning to 'the first 100 days'.
Of course, you're using Rosh HaShanah as the Abom setup, which then 171 days prior was Passover, which is then exactly 3 years from a putative Rapture date on the real calendar. And that's pretty powerful.

But think: Christ rose 3.5 days later. So why not use FirstFruits?

Point is, there are many ways you can fit to important dates that can be used. Trying to figure out exactly which way WILL occur, will make you old and gray and frustrated.

Anonynomenon | 26 Sep 2016, 04:03

Do you think Dan 7:25 means that he will try to change the calendar? Or maybe not the dates, but the meaning of the Feasts?

brainout | 26 Sep 2016, 04:12

Both of the above, but better if he uses the real calendar, since God will. Makes it harder for the real believers to say no. None of that stops him from pulling a Nero by renaming months, adding holidays, etc.

In the example above, he could say hitting the middle of Booths was to mean Christ Risen 3.5 days later (when the midpoint hit), so now Harvesting has a new midpoint holiday.. right?

Anonynomenon | 26 Sep 2016, 04:16

That's true, but at least we know that Dan 12 works with some Feast Dates, especially Passover. So maybe Feasts are more than just poetic.

brainout | 26 Sep 2016, 04:20

Oh sure the feasts are more than poetic. They depict trends of history. David knew that, hence the 1Chron24 priestly course names are all prophetic of history. I could only quickly demonstrate that in HebCal.htm. (It's also in PassPlot.htm).

Israel's enemies have long used the Feast days to attack her: final assault on 2nd Temple, began ON Passover. And let's not forget Yom Kippur War.

And if you really wanna get creepy, 2667 FAF is divisible evenly by 3 AND 7. So if God made Passover Month a new year, then our counting it by math as 2666 would equate to the start of 2667.

2667-1267 (solar day Abom set up)=1400, year Moses began writing Torah.

Anonynomenon | 26 Sep 2016, 05:56

Why so many crazy "coincidences" like this? Is it Satan messing with the BC/AD system? I've seen so many things like this in the past 4 years that its almost frustrating.

brainout | 26 Sep 2016, 06:10

Well, first there are many important events in Israel's and world history to reconcile or connect. So there should be a lot of weirdness like this. Problem is more to decide if you connect the RIGHT events the seeming 'coincidence' or 'revelation' signifies. That's why matching event character matters so much.

Here in the example, the writing of Torah begins 40 years after the Exodus (really at start of year 41), and technically doesn't match Exodus itself. But Moses is the key guy in both. So I can just see Satan, who wanted Moses' body anyway (per Jude), mouthing some connection to him, even if not quite apt.

brainout | 26 Sep 2016, 08:14

I just realized it's also deadly in reverse. As in, they read the 1290 as START rather than backwards count from end...

So statue really goes up 1266.75 as Daniel 12:11 actually says. BUT at that point there do remain 1290 days, so voila!

• CALL it the 1290th day and announce the Mill is HERE! After all, that's what the text says, right? (Wrong: but since 1290 is in the text, and most people won't READ, the text is effectively masked.)

Then

• CALL most blessed, those 45 days prior to the now-totally-obfuscated real Rapture date (which was 1266.75 days prior, but now that 1290 is accepted, why not 1335)!

Aha,

• so now that the actual Rapture Date count is advertised as occurring 75 days EARLIER than it occurred (like Catholics say Good Friday to Sunday is three days and nights) -- AHA, now a) anyone disputing that (i.e., based on real knowledge of Bible and competence), can be rounded up and jailed/killed; b) can be silenced in fear, so the truth is masked.

It's not like we don't see the same thing happening daily, in and outside of Christendom.

So notice, if the Statue IS INDEED put in Temple ON RoshHaShana and the demon boys want to CLAIM Rapture started on Passover (even though they are counting the wrong way)...

RHS - Passover is 194 days (solely if counted from RHS to Pesach, not the reverse) Add 1095.75 and you get a way to see how that Statue is put in HOH on RHS, on the newly-minted claim that it's really 1290!

So now, all those people who correctly calculated the exit window and left, are confused. For if the Rapture really did occur on Passover and they left by 1266.75th day, they will think they left AT THE WRONG TIME. So now they will start to doubt what time it is, and think they should have stayed, and might then seek to come BACK to FIGHT.

Note well: The holiday picked to do this back-count obfuscation, does not have to be RHS. It only has to be any famous Jewish holiday where the numbers 'fit' to make the claim. So of course they could put it up ON Passover, claim the Rapture occurred on RHS, even though it didn't!

This is so realistic, I'm shaking.

Anonynomenon | 08 Oct 2016, 05:36

I found another deadly one. My original theory placed the Abomination on Passover so that the False Prophet could present himself as a lamb (Rev 13:11). This blasphemy would then be thrown back in his face when the Two Witnesses would be resuscitated 3.5 days later (Rev 11:9) to kind of mirror the death and resurrection of our Lord. The Two Witnesses resuscitated rather than resurrected to show that they are servants of the Lord.

The problem with my original theory was that I was placing Rosh Hashanah on Sept 16th and using 35+1260+1260 for the Tribulation. Now with the dates adjusted, there is a different picture painted.

So here it is:

Rosh Hashanah + 15 days= Sukkot +8 days = Shemini 'Atzeret (8th day celebration)

So, Shemini 'Atzeret would fall on Oct 14th. If we subtract 1290 days from Oct 14th, we get Passover Day (Apr 3rd). This scenario would place a 6.75 day hiatus prior to the 1260 days of Two Witnesses' ministry which could work with Rev 7:1 (especially if the Two Witnesses are really part of the 144K?). Hence, the Tribulation would be 1267+1290 days to fill 7 solar years.

This scenario would be deadly for people drooling over the Abomination, but would also deal a humiliating blow to the Beast and False Prophet. Therefore anybody paying close attention would suddenly realize what is happening.

brainout | 08 Oct 2016, 13:58

Okay, but where is the confirming Scripture? You'd need wordplay on the holidays (and I'm not saying there is none), plus that extra seven isn't shown in Daniel 12, so where do we see it?

Point here, is that we've all come up with several timelines but 'there can only be one'. So where's our Highlander?

Anonynomenon | 11 Oct 2016, 05:00

Still trying to figure out exactly when the Two Witnesses start their ministry. I kinda feel like there should be a hiatus of some kind before the first 1260 days, per Rev 7:3...

But for the time being, I noticed something else.

The woman flees to the wilderness, so this must be the 2nd half of Trib. So here it looks like the 1260 days of nourishment is counting back from Second Advent (like Daniel 12).

Since early escape window opens at 1335 days till Mill, 1335-1260=75. So that confirms there are a total of 75 days to escape: 45 days Pre-Abomination and 30 days Post-Abomination.

So now the question; Is the first half of Trib a mirror image of the second half? 1260+36.75+1260. That would be very symmetrical, but is it correct?

Also:

I don't know if there is phonetic word play involved, but what about this:

What if it is hinting at Passover?

1. Foreigners could be coming to Jerusalem to celebrate a Feast.
2. Same city where our Lord died. Again, on Passover.
3. Two Witnesses rise 3.5 days later.

brainout | 11 Oct 2016, 11:18

Oh yeah. Window 1221.75-1266.75 can be also seen as 1260+36.75+1260, in same idea as 147 can be 70+77 but also 84+63. The different packagings can reference different but overlaying timelines. Just as, 365 days, but you can instead denote the same period as 12 mos or 52 weeks.

For crops, the monthly denomination would maybe be most important to follow. For your Daytimers, maybe 52 weeks.

So different purposes, as well maybe as different events, can warrant denominational differences overlaying the same seven years.

So if you wanted one of the denominational subdivisions to 'tag' the holidays, like you were doing with Passover and Yom Teruah...

So look: 1221.75 early window start 'within' 1st 1260. At 1230, the demon boys' five months are up, and at 1260 the Two Witnesses killed, then 1263.5 they resurrect or resuscitate (I forget which), then earthquake, and during the next 3 days, last chance!, thus closing 1266.75 (day 1267 at noon). Statue then in, and of that 36.75, only 30 remains. Then Rev 12 running to wilderness for presumably those not around Jerusalem (maybe the other window, but the 45 would be subsumed?), and then 1260.

It's awful precise, so I'd not be 😱 if it were also keyed to the holidays, but you'd have to know them, as I'm sure the authorities will 'change the times and seasons' to prevent accurate daily accounting.

Anonynomenon | 11 Oct 2016, 17:46

Heres what creeps me out with the Passover scenario with Two Witnesses.

If 1260 days starts after a 6-7 day hiatus, then Trib starts and end on day after Booths week.

But if 1260 starts immediately and ends on Passover, then Trib starts/ends on Oct 22.

October 22 keeps coming up in my various calculations, but the scary thing is that William Miller's failed prediction (1800s) stated that Christ would return on Oct 22....and he was using a Lunar calendar. That's just weird.

brainout | 13 Oct 2016, 02:02

So 10/22 is equivalent to 1 Bul. I think I remember the mene mene tekel upharsin date being 10 Bul, per ISBE? I'll go look it up, but that means a reference to Daniel 5, which then has to be tested for its dateline (groan). How can we get exact date? I've never done that in OT. John does exact dates in at least one of his books.

I can't find the 10 Bul I found years ago in Bibleworks' ISBE, but found something close, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Babylon#Invasion Search on Marchesvan. The source of the date is apparently the Babylonian record.

brainout | 09 Nov 2015, 01:41

Really need a thread on the sequence. What follows below I typed as a comment, here (video has since been removed). Video should be titled 'Mark of the Beast' with Craig Schaeffer and Eric Roberts, and is viewable in frankforum, here. But you can ignore my comment, just come up with what you think the sequence is, BACKED UP BY Bible verses. For surely the Rapture movies are bad, and need better information, for all we know the Rapture can happen now or 1000 years from now. Folks will need to know ideas on how to read the sequence, once it happens.

This sequence comes from reading the Greek after hearing Thieme teach Rev line by line for four years. I have all the tapes in multiple sets (reels, maybe some cassettes).

Anonynomenon | 09 Nov 2015, 02:53

My parsing of the Tribulation is as follows:

1. Seals are the Grand Summary: Cliff Notes of the Angelic Conflict (Thanks to RBT's spiritual gift).
2. Trumpet Judgements are for the 1,295 days: Before Abomination of Desolation.
3. Vial Judgements are for the last 1,260 days: After Abomination of Desolation.

Based on my interpretation of the Wedding Feast in relation to the Darkness Outside;

• 144K are saved/sealed first, as God's servants (Rev 7:3).
• 144K invite the world to the Wedding Feast but world rejects invitation (Rev 9:20-21).
• After mid-point, the 144K extend a second invitation (on God's behalf) and are martyred for it. This time many are saved, and many still refuse (unto death). See Rev 11:11 & Rev 14:1-7.
• Then Jesus returns on an 'unknown day and hour'.

We have 2,556.75 days (7 Solar Years) of Tribulation to account for here. My opinion is as follows:

• The 144K are sealed in first 35 days.
• 1st wedding invitation is sent in the first 1,260 days. >Day 1 of first 1,260: Flying angel gives the "three woes " warning. Then the Fifth Trumpet announces the advent of Apollyon.
• 2nd wedding invitation is sent piggybacking the Abomination of Desolation for the duration of the final 1,260 days.
• Jesus' early return (early by a matter of hours), makes room for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, before the 70th Week completely ends, and the Millennium begins.

brainout | 11 Nov 2015, 07:14

Okay, where are you getting 35 days? The difference between 1295 and 1260? At the end of the Daniel series, Lesson 45 I think it was, Thieme was playing with the Daniel 12 numbers of 1335 and 1290. Are you factoring that in?

There's an overlap, yes, but it might be at mid-Trib -- due to the earthquake, as a result of which the statue is flown in/made? -- and the 144K sealed/saved might actually be saved much more rapidly or maybe more slowly, but theoretically it's a prediction that they will be saved at the beginning, so they can have a ministry. Else I don't see where the 35 days comes from? Do you feel like elaborating?

Anonynomenon | 11 Nov 2015, 15:53

Right now my outer darkness theory is my strongest support:

35+1260+1260 days = 7 Solar years (take up to a day for the Second Advent and Wedding Feast).

I'll try to elaborate more later.

35 days for announcement of the Wedding Feast to come.
1260 days for 1st invite
1260 days for 2nd invite
Overlapping 1335 days is for early-bird exit.

Now that I think about it, I'm leaning towards the Sealing of the 144K being limited to the first 7 days of the 35 days. This would be the short time that the 4 winds are held back for the sake of Sealing the 144K. Then immediately, the first 5 trumpets are blown every 7 days. Thats just my assuption for now. I feel that the equidistant intervals makes the most sense.

Four Trumpets blast every 7 days (chronologically) after the 144K are Sealed, then the flying angel announces the "3 woes". The 5th trumpet would then start the first 1,260 days.

So the first four Trumpets are to gain the world's attention to announces the coming Wedding Feast.
The 5th Trumpet kicks off the first 1,260 days while the 144K extend the first invite.
The Abomination of Desolation kicks off the second 1,260 days and the second invite.
The Trumpets 5 and 6 are 2 of the 3 Woes, so they are separate from the first 4 Trumpets.

Anonynomenon | 12 Nov 2015, 02:37

I hadn't noticed this before, but in the Parable of the Wedding Feast in Matt 22, two separate gropus of slaves are sent out by the King to invite guests.

In Revelation, we see two groups of people sent to witness on two separate occasions.

In the first 1,260 days, its the Two Witnesses. When they are killed by Apollyon, the torch is then passed down to the 144K for the second 1,260 days period.

We know that the 144K must be sealed before any harm comes to the earth, so this must be done before the Trumpets are even blown, but they'll need time to grow/take in doctrine, therefore the Two Witnesses (I suppose Moses and Elijah) are sent to proclaim the gospel as the 144K mature.

brainout | 12 Nov 2015, 08:30

Wow, you always bring up such good points. While reading this post of yours, immediately I was reminded of how Noah sent up the raven and then the dove, and more than once.

So yeah, more than one group.

As to the 144K, they are coterminous with the Two Witnesses, if we call those two groups. But I'm not getting the connection to maturation. It's OT style, so why wouldn't God just communicate right away, and they are also maturing during that time?

They don't have to be mature to repeat what He says, even Balaam could do that. How many times have we known God was using us to 'say' something and we didn't even understand its import until later? God even used an ass (Balaam's) to communicate, so it's not necessary to be even human, for God to communicate through you; so not necessary to be mature, either.

Anonynomenon | 12 Nov 2015, 16:26

Do you remember how shy Moses was when God first asked him to speak?

brainout | 12 Nov 2015, 16:32

Toucher. in the fencing sense.

Anonynomenon | 13 Nov 2015, 04:50

I decided to reply to the above here, as not to derail your other thread. I like to keep things organized.

We know that earth can't be harmed until 144K are saved (Rev 7:3), so they are believers for sure, but Rev 9:20 tells us that after the 5th and 6th Trumpets are blown, mankind still refuses to believe.

I'm looking at the Tribulation Sequence through the Matt 22 lense.

The Two Witnesses are given 1,260 days/42 months to minister (Rev 11:3). When we compare that to the Wedding Feast Parable of Matt 22, these are the first group of servants set out to call those who have been invited. They are ignored. Therefore in the first 42 months, no one believes.

The people who are alive on earth are the ones invited by the servants. So the ones left in the outer darkness (at least in Matt 22) are alive.

So here is my latest model for the Tribulation:

7+28+1,260+1,260+1= 7 Solar years
7 Days = Sealing of 144K
+
28 Days = Trumpets 1-4 (blown every 7 days to gain the attention of the world). Then the angel gives Three Woes in Rev 8:13.
+
1,260 Days = Two Witnesses start their ministry, marked by the advent of Apollyon (notice how Apollyon rises at the beginning of the Two Witnesses' ministry, and Apollyon ends it. Sometime within the first 42 months the 6th Trumpet is blown. No one believes.
+
1,260 Days = Apollyon kills Two Witnesses to mark the end of their ministry, and the 144K go out as the second set of servants (per Matt 22). This time, many are saved, and the 144K are mature enough to die in Christ. The Beast is given authority to harm believers for 42 months.
+
1 Day = Jesus returns to shorten the Tribulation for the sake of the elect. Just like in Matt 22, His return will mark the destruction of non-believers (who killed the servants). Then the Marriage Supper begins.

brainout | 13 Nov 2015, 07:29

Wow, that's a really different sequence. Never heard of it before. Need to think it over. How do you account for the Petra verses, Rev 12, if no one believes during the first 3.5? How do you account for Daniel 12, which is a warning about when there's an escape hatch during Mid Trib, to get out of Jerusalem, clearly intended for believers? How do you account for the Lord warning in Matt 24 about when you see the abomination, to get out? Those are all directed for believers during the first 3.5 years...

Anonynomenon | 13 Nov 2015, 17:15

Lol, you're absolutely right. I didn't think about Daniel's early exit. That absolutely debunks my theory. And that rules out Matt 22 as pertaining to the Tribulation since clearly there are people saved during the first 42 months.

This is why I love this forum, if you hadn't mentioned that, who knows how long I would have gone believing it.

I still think the 7+28+1,260+1,260 makes the most sense though, at least until I find something better.

brainout | 13 Nov 2015, 17:56

Well, not trying to debunk. Have you heard Thieme's exegesis of Rev, line by line? Took 4 years. You can get it on DVD or mp3. I have maybe three sets of the four-year series on reels. But I have class notes, so if you start listening and you want to talk about a specific class, let me know. Maybe should be another thread, if you want.

In those classes and you can see how from Scripture (but it takes some playing with the math in Daniel 11-12), the first 3.5 years are The Two Witnesses (killed at Trib midpoint by Apollyon in Rev 11), AND the angel flying (maybe only at Year 3), AND the 144K. So those are the 'signs', in addition to whatever Exodus-like plagues are imposed.

I don't get where you see the first 35 days to save/seal the 144K (though the number is interesting, doctrinally means half-vote, God's Vote, but I didn't test to see if those passages were metered).

Each Trumpet is its own period. Actual intervals aren't stated, but 5th Trumpet is Year 3, Rev 9, baldly in the text. Going by Rev 12-13, the third angel sounding in Rev 8:10 would also be Year 3. So that implies Year 1=Trumpet 1, and Year2=Trumpet 2.

What underscores that interp, is that every New Year the trumpet is blown, Rosh HaShanah. But the seventh is AT the Mid-Point, hence the seven vials. So now we've got the problem of accounting for why so many trumpets, 3rd-6th are all in Year 3.

Anonynomenon | 13 Nov 2015, 18:30

Yeah, I'm in the Rev series you're talking about now, but he goes off into so many political tangents that progress is pretty slow. Don't get me wrong, I always learn somthing new. I'm somewhere in Chapt 2 right now and I'm also alternating with his James 4 lessons.

Could you explain how the 5th Trumpet is in third year? I'm interested in knowing that. I just get the feeling that Apollyon marks the beginning and end of the first 42 months. Thats why I fixed the 5th Trumpet at day 36, (which would begin the first1,260 days.)

Also, my model has the 144K being sealed before any Trumpets are blown, so that limits it to the first 7 days of the 35 days before the first 1,260 days.

Basically:
7 days for 144K sealing
28 days for 4 Trumpets at equidistand intervals

Anonynomenon | 13 Nov 2015, 19:07

What I gather from Rev 12, is that Satan is the falling star in the 5th Trumpet who lets Apollyon loose. This lines up with the Three Woes after the 4th Trumpet.

Again I dont see where you get the third year from. I see the sign in heaven which predicts the Great Tribulation and the vision of Satan falling which summarizes the first 1,260 days.

brainout | 13 Nov 2015, 19:59

For the third year meaning, look at Rev 9 and read it through Chapter 13. Any translation will do. Think over the timing of the events as you read.v

As for Thieme's frequent meanderings in Rev series, yeah. I had been a taper prior but during those years was actually at the Church, and my notes are full of all the divergences. It was during Reagan so that's why. Thieme hadn't grown out of the politics bug yet. In 1992 Spiritual Dynamics, you see he has. Difference is shocking.

James 4 is just before 92SD, so you are probably seeing the transition now. I have a notebook for that, too, and all the classes. Really important series as a transition. 1991 Israel is part of it, too.

Anonynomenon | 13 Nov 2015, 20:59

One-third of mankind dying at the 6th Trumpet?
One-third of the stars falling from heaven?

Is that what you mean?

I don't think that indicates timing. My guess is that the 1/3 fallen stars are the 200 million demon army that are led by the four angels from the Euphrates bed. They fell with Satan when he released Apollyon. I know that's not how Thieme taught it, but thats how I connect the dots.

1/3 of angels killing 1/3 of mankind. Similar to believers replacing fallen angels.

brainout | 13 Nov 2015, 22:51

Rev 9 begins at Year 3. First five months, fifth angel's sounding, Satan comes doen, keys, then Tartarus release, Apollyon etc. Then the pause of Rev 10. Then Trib midpoint, killing of the Two Witnesses, everyone celebrates for three days, and then they rise, then a month in hiatus, presumably for the events of Rev 11, when the earthquake hits. Then the war in heaven, Rev 12, ending with Satan standing on the earth, Rev 13.

Anonynomenon | 13 Nov 2015, 23:23

Yeah, I understand the chronology, I just don't see the whole 3rd year thing. I feel like Apollyon's release begins the first 42 months.

And why a hiatus in the middle? Where is the indication for that?

brainout | 13 Nov 2015, 23:35

Okay, well let's look at the verses. There's no translation issue here, I don't think, so I used NASB:

• Rev 8:7 is the first day of the first year.
• 8:10-11 = Satan comes down, picture-in-picture, split-screen TV during Rev12, occurs at the third year but before he's thrown out of heaven so during the Rev12 fighting;
• 9:1, Satan petitioned for that key and uses it as part of the Rev 12 sequence of fighting God in heaven, so he gets his demand;
• Rest of Rev 9, first five months are reserved for torturing by the 200 million demons, again p-i-p for what's happening in Rev 12;
• Rev 11, Apollyon who came up from the Abyss in Rev 9, and after the Rev10 dramatic intermission (to set up the themes for the last 3.5 years).. in Rev11, he kills the Two Witnesses at Trib mid-point, which has to be a month after the first five months.
• Which is, when Satan gets thrown out of heaven, Rev 12.

So it looks like AFTER the five months ends, at the beginning of the sixth month, he kills them. So then the earthquake after the three days, then in the ensuing melee there's an escape window for at least the rest of the month. This fits well with the end of Daniel 12 difference between 1335 days and 1290 days, da? Forecasting, you'd better start obeying Christ's stricture on leaving without packing (in Matt24), beginning about 1221 days after the Trib starts, and no later than 1290 days after it starts, since the statue goes up on the 1290th day, when believer egress will be closed.

So it ends up being more than a month, really, sometime maybe mid 7th month of 3rd year, that statue is flown in or something, picking us up back at Rev 13. For they need time to reconstruct due to the earthquake, to make and fly in the statue from Rome, to establish communication: for starting at that 75 days, Satan indwells whoever is the western Anti-Christ, takes over, gets photographed as Messiah to wow people, makes treaty with the false prophet aka Jewish anti-christ of Daniel 11:35ff, etc.

Would make a great movie but awful time to be alive, if only Hollywood would tell the story as Bible does...

Anonynomenon | 14 Nov 2015, 00:22

Yes, I see what you mean now, but I don't know if I agree.

Why does it have to be one Trumpet per year? If your thinking Yom Theruah, then that would be 7 Trumpets in 7 years.

Wormwood is described as a falling flaming mountain (not a star). Seems more like its a meteor or something.

Now in the the 5th Trumpet, a falling star unlocks the Abyss. Notice its a star and not a mountain. So this looks like Satan's exile from Heaven.

The locust that rise with Apollyon have a slightly different description that the army of 200 million. So I think the 200 million are the 1/3 of stars that fell with Satan.

So my model places Trumpets 1-4 within the first 35 days (God's vote to scare earth straight). Then Apollyon's 150 days of torture start the first 42 months. Sometime after the torture campaigns comes the slaughter of the 6th Trumpet.

Then at the end of the first 42 months, Apollyon kills Two Witnesses.

So like I said, 35 days to let people know the Tribulation is here, then it gets real as 5th Trumpet starts the 1,260 days.

brainout | 14 Nov 2015, 00:55

It doesn't have to be one trumpet per year. But Rev 8:10 forward is definitely the third year, has to be at its start, because Rev 9's 200 million are let out, torture for five months, Apollyon is among them, so not out prior, and at Trib midpoint kills the Two Witnesses.

Whether there's more than one set of 200 million or whether the description is appositive of the same 200 million, we can look at later.

For now, you've got some hurdles. In every Dispie sect I know and Scripture too, Wormwood is universally understood to mean Satan, Rev 8:11 depicts him as a star, not a mountain, same as in Rev 9:1; falling from heaven is not the same as being CAST OUT (Rev 9:1's piptw for fall, but ballw = cast out in Rev 12:9).

So you got to explain how you can reverse those Scriptures or find others which override them to agree with the position you're taking..?

Anonynomenon | 14 Nov 2015, 01:48

Lol sorry, I confused the 2nd and 3rd Trumpets. So yeah, I can see Satan being Wormwood (bitter because his time is short).

But the locust from the Abyss had stingers on their tails, and they aren't numbered, whereas the 200 million have snakes on their tails. Thats just one of the differences, that seem pretty significant.

So you think Apollyon has to be released 150 days before the Two Witnesses are murdered. (By the way, does that 150 correspond to Noah's flood?)

Now I see why you think it has to be in the 3rd year.

I always thought Apollyon would terrorize people for 150 days (5 months), then hang back for 37 months until the time came to kill the Two Witnesses. Meanwhile, some time within those 37 months, the 6th Trumpet is blown.

I get you now. Don't know if I agree yet, but I get you.
That gives me something more to work with.

brainout | 14 Nov 2015, 05:51

Okay, well I'm not looking for agreement, only Scripture meaning we can prove. This is all the same group:

The Colonel maintains there are THREE demon armies. This is one of them.

Next, the Tartarus army, mentioned in Rev9:12-14, 17-19.

So now, verse 16: is 200 million 'horsemen' (riders) the sum total of both armies (cavalry portion), before going on to explain the 2nd's appearance?

I forget what the Colonel concluded and what he said was the third army. I haven't yet looked up my notes on this.

Anonynomenon | 14 Nov 2015, 06:36

Why would some be in the Abyss and some in Tartarus?

I'm also interested with Apollyon's 5 months and whether or not it parallels the flood...like a flood of locust.

brainout | 14 Nov 2015, 06:41

The abussos demons of Rev 9:3-11, I'm not sure why they are there, have to go look up my notes; but for Rev9:17ff's Tartarus, it's Jude 6 + Genesis 6 revolution, 2Peter 2:4 (which uses the term Tartarus, as does the LXX); and 1Pet3:19.

Apollyon was in abussos, or is Satan. Given the syntax of Rev 9:11, it seems like Apollyon is not Satan, but was down there with them. I don't see any text identifying him as Satan (you know, like sometimes the Angel of the Lord is later identified in context AS the Lord).

Unless, abussos is the generic term and for the same place, Tartarus is the official name, but used for Hebrew mayim. For in the OT, the term is used for 'the deep' as well. Verses (LXX): Prov. 30:16; Job 40:20; 41:24.

So Abbadon is not out in the world until that 3rd year, released by Satan, tormenting for the five months; after, he and the rest of the abussos demons seemingly must be part of the Army Groups (whether its total is 200 million or not).

Since your largest human Army Group is maybe one million, even with the demons being so efficient and of higher power, assuming a total of 200 million (not more) is staggeringly more than needed. So if the 'locust' Group(s) are outside that total..?

Again, I've not rechecked my notes or what others have said, am just looking de novo at the text. So nothing said is dogmatic.

Yeah, I forgot to talk about the 150 day parallel. Maybe it applies, because Daniel 9:26 talks about 'flood' .. of troops, Hebrew sheteph (LXX uses orge to translate it). Yet five months tormenting is only part of the whole. So too was the kickoff flood, though. The Flood lasted a year, video and its description's Word doc showing the verses is here. You can instead just grab the doc in the description, and you can buy Lewis' dissertation in Amazon (which I have, and don't find useful).

Anonynomenon | 14 Nov 2015, 17:31

I don't think Abbadon is Satan either, and I'm not sure that Tararus is opened with the Abyss at 5th Trumpet. I'd like to continue this portion of the conversation in an Abaddon thread. Will open that later.

Continuing with the flood parallel, it does say the 4 angels of the Euphrates are "reserved for the year, month, hour, and day". Is it possible that Abaddon's 5 months start off the year of terror? Like Noah's flood?

brainout | 14 Nov 2015, 21:04

Oh yeah, possible. What's striking is that the trumpets seem to go Trumpet 1=Year One, T2=Year Two, then what.. 3=Year Three, but 4567=Year Three also, as if concatenating the interval to monthly. For there's that 35 or 45 or 75 day hiatus at the end. Thieme had a different interp of it in the last class on Daniel, thinking it was an extension of time after the Trib ended, if I recall, so I'm accounting it differently, same 2556.75 but with the hiatus in the middle, counting 1335 backwards from the 2556.75 to get the Matt24 exit window in Rev 11 during the earthquake.

Overall, so maybe there is a parallel to the Flood Chrono, for the 150 is subdivided, too. Again, all this is preliminary, and I didn't parse the Greek to see if it's metered in Rev9. The Rev meter itself I only barely started, JohnDatelineMeters.htm. Change extension to 'pdf' if you don't have Bibleworks fonts, so can read the Greek.

Anonynomenon | 14 Nov 2015, 22:29

Ok. So flood started on what would be Pentecost, right?

So lets try to think like non-believers during Tribulation right now. I get stung by Apollyon's thugs and am in total pain for 5 month. That may not be enough to make me believe in Christ, but Apollyon is on the Anti-christ's side. Why would I race to the line to get my 666-mark, when Apollyon just tortured me for 5 months?

What if after the Two Witnesses are resuscitated, the ones who were stung, survive to believe?...Since the Flood started at Pentecost. Do you get me?

And what about those killed by the 200 million? They aren't believers, but are they against the Anti-christ & Co? Like I said why would the world race to serve a Beast that is in league with mass murderers?

That makes me wonder if Apollyon and the 4 angels of the Euphrates are leading a world wide fascist revolution on behalf of the Beast? Can't kill the believers, but they can kill whoever tries to "make war with the Beast".

brainout | 15 Nov 2015, 03:48

Not following you through all the specifics here. The 666 mark, whatever it is, wouldn't necessarily be sought because someone likes to have it, but because you can't live without it. So think of Apollyon etc as SS, and folks cave in. Just like Hitler's Germany. That's also in keeping with the end of your post, below and above.

So now the question: Why did people cave into Hitler and Stalyin and Mao? They were all mass murderers. Here's why: go watch old Hitler movies the Nazis made, on Youtube, read the neo-Nazi comments. Click here and do that (videos since deleted). Quite chilling.

So that's one reason they might LOVE to 'race' as you say: the believers/jews are blamed, so the regime stirring up the hatred of the masses, can use that hatred like a laser canon against believers and Jews. It's not like we've never seen regimes do that before. It's not like we don't see irrational hatred of us now.

In all those dippy Trib movies, that's one theme they get right. Granted, we believers are pretty stupid, self-righteous and snarky, but we don't deserve the vehemence or the level of criticism we get, and GOD shouldn't be lumped with us.. but always is. I've always been critical of Christianity and Judaism since quite young, raised in both (child of mixed marriage). But never did it dawn on me that GOD had anything to do with what the Christians and Jews kept doing poorly. For many of us, that same 'history' is true. We don't lump God with the bad behaviors, for we know there is a difference.

But if you WANT to be able to say God is bad, you lump Him with people who are provably bad. Just as, I'm sure a few Jews and Christians in Germany were bad, that's how groups are: always a few bad, at minimum. So now, to tarnish the whole and God in the bargain, well... Kristallnacht isn't far away, and thus needing 666 or Nazi Party Membership isn't far away either.

So the vehemence is really against GOD, and when that happens, any argument or murdering can be justifiable, so long as the ones murdering are also against GOD. Happens today easily on a lesser level, Calvies banding together with other calvies no matter how goofy their arguments -- and everyone else is 'heretic', Calvie buzzword; Catholics with Catholics, same buzzword, +Inquisition; Muzzies with Muzzies, buzzword changes to najis, +jihad; atheists with atheists, buzzword changes to FSM.

Frankly, they are all quite irrational, no one stepping back to separate FACT from fiction. It's taking the fruit from the woman all over again.

FACTS: God exists or does not, Bible verse means xyz or does not. THOSE FACTS have nothing to do with what 'group' you like or belong to. But we go by the GROUP, not by facts.

Finally, I don't get why the thing starts on Pentecost. Care to elaborate?

Anonynomenon | 15 Nov 2015, 04:22

I was just speculating.

I was thinking Pentecost, because that's the day Noah's flood started.

The waters persisted 150 days, and Apollyon's campaign is 5 months long. Then you have the 4 angels from Euphrates, "prepared for the hour, day, month, and year".

If there is a flood parallel, then does it follow the same schedule?

brainout | 15 Nov 2015, 04:31

Okay, understood. I don't know if Trib is intended to follow the same schedule. Maybe yes maybe no. There has been a contention for centuries that Trib begins on Rosh HaShanah. No way to prove that, we don't know the day or hour, and EVERY generation can be the Trib generation, that's why we're all in Groundhog Day, Dan9:26c (or as Robbie Dean put it, 'time bubble').

That 'prepared' clause in Rev 9:15 is eerie. But of course God would know the timing, and we still don't.

guest | 15 Nov 2015, 04:37

Here's a short visual of normally "good" people getting caught up in the insanity of their fellow man. Its amusing yet telling. No one with Bible doctrine would get tripped up so easily in either an elevator or the Apocalypse.

brainout | 15 Nov 2015, 04:44

That's not a disputation, but an add-on.

brainout | 15 Nov 2015, 05:32

LOL good rejoinder. 🕵️

Was just reading the comments to a really boring Stalyin reminiscence video here. Notice how dead the speaker is. Imagine having a soul that small, focusing on inanities, never on the big stuff. Scary.

So now, look at all the neo-commies, commenting. So if you asked them what they were doing, wow: they'd want to shoot you.

Goes back to what you were saying in the Prez threads.

brainout | 15 Nov 2015, 11:05

Just did a video with that assumption, reading Rev8ff live onscreen, commenting on the text. But not posted, because my video is boring.

Idea that trumpets were sounded for events and times, annually, monthly, holidays, convocations, so that's why the trumpets are used here.

So as I was talking, it occurred to me you can read the third trumpet as Year 3 Month 1 (beginning, first day), fourth as Year 3 month 2 (again beginning), so then fifth -- which begins Rev 9 -- would be Year 3 month 3 (again beginning).

So look: Abib/Nisan, Ziv, Sivan (month when Pentecost begins). That plays into a different common contention about when Trib begins, but yet doesn't confirm it, as there are TWO accounting years, and the one beginning in Abib, is regnal (as well as sacred, Judah's kings dated their reigns from Abib 1).

So it wouldn't matter if the Trib began 'on time' at the beginning of Rosh Hashana. It would still be deemed the third year, but now maybe the actual month is depicted: on the sacred/regnal calendar, which still doesn't tell you whether Trib itself began PER that calendar, or the other one (or any at all).

And notice that's playing to Noah, too: whose birthday, going by the math, is likely what we now call 1Passover.

I ended the video on that idea, didn't spend any time explaining it. Not sure the video is necessary, as the idea is probably clear to you already.

Now, what if:

1st Trumpet lasts a year. So the 'advertisement' that the Trib has begun, is not a bunch of suddenly-empty clothing falling on airplane seats and sidewalks; rather per BIBLE, lot of firey hail mixed with blood, which burns.. 1/3 earth, 1/3 trees and all grass; but it takes time for the pundits to analyze and calculate the damage extent. Hence I'm thinking it takes a year. So too, did the Exodus plagues. So too, was Noah in the boat.

2nd Trumpet occurs Year 2, and is remedial, since they didn't learn from Year One: your average pundit will call it an asteroid, and claim that the sea to blood is some kind of chemical in the asteroid, and all the dead fish and wrecked shipping, take a year or so for recovery. Meanwhile of course, some have calculated and notice oh, one third again and begin to think of Bible, but most others scoff.

3rd Trumpet occurs Year 3, on Passover (Noah's Birthday). Satan comes down JUST LIKE YEAR TWO ASTEROID, does the destruction himself (that third), and many people die. Objective is to create a catastrophe and blame believers for it, preparatory to announce himself as Messiah (for of course he knows the Trib sequence, too). So he wants people to believe his version of Bible prophecy, so he can a) win over the apostate, and b) bop believers into captivity or death. Cuz, now he can use the past 2 years, to make everyone want him (well, whoever he indwells, plus some guy in Israel who'll end up as the front man).

So oh how convenient, for REAL DEMONS to come out of imprisonment, beautiful and deadly.

4th Trumpet occurs 30 days later, since if you knew your Bible, you'd know to start counting the Omer at the end of Passover week, which including Passover's start (for those who do NOT know Bible and miscount it from the beginning).. is 30 days.

5th Trumpet occurs 57 days after Passover started, which is real Pentecost.. 50 days after the end of Passover week, per Numbers 28:26 which Jews perpetually misread. Even the misreaders all know the importance of 56.. or will know, by then (it's the most common meter in the Bible, difference between Passover and Pentecost, and Pentecost to 9th Av, amply documented in the Isaiah 53 meter, here:).

Sixth Trumpet then blows. Get the pun? Kicking off the sixth month! Now the 2nd demon army (not even pretending to be human, since the fake Messiah is supposed to have angels at his command, right) -- comes up and out. Killing what? 1/3 one-third ONE THIRD of humans. In the name of Messiah, of course!

Satan wins now no matter what. If they believe HE is the Messiah, then they side with him (if only to escape death). If they don't, they learn to hate 'Messiah', which he's not but Jesus is. No doubt it will be like Hitler's Germany, where the initial targets were Jews and anyone who couldn't be used to 'help the cause', to weed them out, make the remainder easier to manipulate. Which of course, this SS de novo, would do.

We know the 7th trumpet is at midpoint. We know the Two Witnesses are killed at midpoint. All that is introduced to us during the intermission tableau/mime of Rev 10 and first half of 11. So then all of Bul ends the sixth month+ maybe 12 days, and when the six month ends it's Trib midpoint, too. (This would support those who contend Trib begins on Rosh HaShana, which maybe was the old pre-Church schedule, I've not yet found it in Bible.)

So maybe just in time for 25 Chislev, the month following Bul, aka Chanukah, the LORD's birthday, our boys the Two Witnesses, get killed, or resurrected, or the earthquake happens.. or that statue is flown in.

And someone will say, 'well that's past the midpoint'. Not necessarily, depends on when the Trib actually began. Here, the accounting year is Jewish sacred. In terms of absolute time elapse from Trib start, and whether you're accounting solar or lunar, the actual date can still be Trib midpoint, 3.5 years after it actually began: there's maybe a 15-day variance, for example, between solar and lunar at this point (so 11/12 Chislev, 30 days later, is accounted by many lunar-keeping Jews and Christians who don't know Bible.. as Chanukah).

Stopping this rough-draft scenario, here.

Anonynomenon | 15 Nov 2015, 17:58

Excellent brainstorm. 👍 Very thought provoking and if you do get around to uploading that video, I will absolutely watch it.

I happen to believe that the Tribulation MIGHT begin on Yowm Theruah for two main reasons:

1. In Ezra's day, Jews re-entered the Land from Babylon on Yowm Theruah. Whether the reference to leaving Babylon in Revelation is figurative or not (I think its quite literal), it does parallel Ezra. And that would not be the first parallel to Ezra, drawn in Revelation.
2. The Two Witnesses are killed and rise 3.5 days later. That screams Passover to me. If Passover is midpoint, then Tribulation starts in Rosh Hashana. That would still apply to the future Tribulation since Revelation was written as an update.

That's all I got for now. Need to do some number crunching.

Anonynomenon | 16 Nov 2015, 06:29

Ok. What if we reversed the flood parallel? Noah's flood started on 11 Sivan which became Pentecost.

What if Apollyon starts his 5 months on 11 Khisleu instead? If the bisected calendar is intended to mirror itself, then 11 Khisleu would be the mirror to Pentecost, right?

brainout | 16 Nov 2015, 06:51

Yeah, you can argue that, but notice how if the Witnesses are killed on Chanukah (or resurrected, or the statue flown in), HIS birthdate (and the initial dedication date of the Temple Foundation, Haggai 2), that the whole of Rev 11 is witty. For your death day is your birthday, to heaven. They are standing at the Temple near its foundation, the Holy of Holies, fending everyone off for 3.5 years.

So too, 2nd Temple foundation began construction and got completed, then got stuck, hence Haggai was sent to chide Seed of Baal who God in Haggai 2 appoints Seed of Christ.

BTW, this would end up meaning that Trib starts on Pentecost. Just like Church did. Just like Noah's entrance into das Boot. Just like harvesting the Gentiles is supposed to. For technically, the remaining 3.5 on Abraham's too early maturation has to be paid back first. So if Chanukah when the two witnesses go up, now we are on Jewish time again but the fiscal year is HIS BIRTHDAY, same as 2nd TEMPLE's.

Yeah, Chanukah mirror to Pentecost (when John the Baptist born). So then the question for you is, does the math work so well in reverse? I didn't test it, since you will be. 😱👍

Anonynomenon | 16 Nov 2015, 07:16

The math works for my 35+1260+1260 model 14 Abib being mid-trib, but I doubt it works for yours. The problem is that I just can't prove or disprove any of it yet. So I'm stuck having to juggle multiple theories. It's rather frustrating.lol

But how does Chanuka mirror Pentecost? Chanuka is 24 Khisleu. The mirror to Pentecost would be 11 Kisleu: Yowm Theruah+14+57 days. Chanuka would be 12 days later.

brainout | 16 Nov 2015, 07:56

The mirror happens when someone's using lunar years instead of solar, as you are doing. So using lunar, the 'new' year begins 5 days too early. This is why Christ died on True Passover but celebrated official Passover 4 days early, as I tried to show in PassPlot.htm. The Jews had not intercalated for solar. Current scholarship seems to conclude that they only intercalated to create Adar Sheni every three or six years. The Bible shows that only one year wasn't intercalated, so apparently it's the first of a new delay cycle by the Sanhedrin. (Compare the wit John 12:12 compared to 13:1, skip of five days (4 in-between), then end John 18 versus Exodus 12, and you'll see he concatenates 4 days, playing on the 4 days from Arrest to Crucifixion as Preparation of the Lamb versus Slaying.)

So: if using lunar, there's a five-day 'drift' by year-end, so by three years, that drift is 15 days. 11+15=26, but as you know Jewish time a new day begins piggybacked on the old day, so then 25. Technically, 24th after sundown, so if there's a leap day or some other drift in the vernal equinox then 11+15 can equal 24 or 25.

Remember, the numbers would be there so the Trib folk can calculate where they are. So for all we know, this brainstorming thread will end up having at least some right answers they will somehow find. There have always been and will always be a lot of false ideas. So here, the calculation METHOD being fleshed out, will likely help. We won't be here. They will be alone. How they will find this thread when you and I will be dead, who knows.

If I recall correctly, at the 2009 Chafer Seminary conference or maybe in his studies at that point, Robbie Dean posited a hiatus between Rapture and Trib Begins, kinda like you are doing. I am not sure of the details.

EDIT: notice that a mirror can work in reverse, so now we have either a Chanukah start or a Pentecost start to Trib. I pick Pentecost as it makes Church time 'even', starting and ending on the Harvesting of the Gentiles. Now, that plays into your posit of delay (which I don't hold to, but Robbie Dean does), for then the time between Pentecost and Rosh HaShanah is likely for the "hiatus" (Dean's term for it, as I recall, but you can find out from his church, I don't go there).

So now, back to Noah. The next benchmark after the 150 is 93 days, Gen 8:5 (use LXX, not BHS). So the gap is 93 days. It won't work, from Pentecost. By contrast, if 12 Chislev solar=Chanukah lunar is midpoint, then +93 takes you to 15 Adar, the 'sixth month' of the civil calendar, too, aka Purim.

Or something like this. For you really hit the nail on the head when you posited a comparison with Noah's timetable. ONLY GOD CAN ORCHESTRATE TIME. So no matter what excuses people come up with, if stuff that happens is otherwise explained away, then how come it's always happening on BIBLE dates? Hmmm? That, no one can invent or explain away.

Of course, our problem then will be that we've messed up our calendars. The Kaluach is way off since Josephus, 346 years too short, they cut out the Persian years (Google on that; so it's really Year 6121, not 5776). Pope Gregory cut 10 days from our calendar in the 500's (I want to say it was in 582), and I forget all the adjustments after that.

So God will be doing it likely at a poetic time for doctrinal meaning, but many who don't care to learn the BIBLE's calendar will miss it. In retrospect -- meaning, for those then alive and learning Bible -- it will make perfect sense.

This sounds like predicting the day or hour, but in fact you see we cannot: if only because, we've messed up our calendars so much.

Anonynomenon | 16 Nov 2015, 13:42

Im not using a lunar year. I'm using Rosh Hashana as the starting point instead of Vernal Equinox. So Rosh Hashana+14 days mirrors Passover+57 days mirrors Pentecost. Thats 11 Khisleu, right?

brainout | 16 Nov 2015, 13:53

RH+14=Passover start, and that's when Sukkot starts. It too, lasts a week. So if we count 57 from Sukkot start, that's 14 Tishri/Ethanim +57.. yeah would take you to 11/12 Chislev. On solar. But remember, they won't be counting solar, they will be counting lunar, so to them the SAME COUNT ends up meaning Chanukah, if not intercalated for three years (which is likely, as Judaism will be in hiding by then).

But now, how do you count the five months, and how do you justify the initial 35 day hiatus, with what Scripture? I'm not trying to dispute, but to clarify.

Anonynomenon | 16 Nov 2015, 16:40

I think the Two Witnesses would probably resolve any calendar disputes.

Im thinking Rosh Hashana starts 35 days. Then starts the Two Witnesses' 1260 day ministry, but Apollyon would rise 35 days after Two Witnesses begin.

So 35+(35+1225). Or 70+1225. That would still place Apollyon in first year, not third. I'm not sure he has to kill witnesses immediately after the 5 months.

Lets say the 5 months dovetail with the 200 million assault: 150+215=365. The 35 day warning from the Two Witnesses + 5th & 6th Trumpets combined would be 35+365=400 days total. Then at the end of the Two Witnesses' ministry, Apollyon kills them.

Again, I like the way it looks, but I cant prove any of it yet.

brainout | 16 Nov 2015, 17:05

Well, there are so many hurdles to overcome with that scenario. You'd have to contend Satan falls immediately, justify how 35 days, why not solar: because 1260 is lunar, not solar; solar midpoint is 1278.375, 2566.75/2, and Rev 11 says they trample for 42 months AFTER, and 1260+1290=2550, which is more than lunar, a week less than solar.

Did you meter Rev 9 or 11? I didn't do that yet.

Anonynomenon | 16 Nov 2015, 18:57

No, have not metered any of Rev. Even if I did, I wouldn't know how to understand it.

1260 are not lunar. A lunar year has 354 days, not 360.

But in either case, I'm using the Solar calendar, over laying the 1260 days. Either way, there is a 35 day hiatus somewhere. Its either in the beginning, middle, or end. I can't justify a hiatus in the end, and to put it in the middle seems awkward to me. I think the two sets of 1260 days run back to back. Good days and bad days (Psalm 90). First 1260 good for believers, last 1260 bad for believers. To me that rules out a mid-trib hiatus.

The point of 1260 is not to be lunar or solar, because in actuality its neither. The point is to divide the days into 7s. It fits my understanding of the Solar calendar perfectly. All segments are divisible by 7, and the last remaining day is cut by the Lord Himself.

I don't see a problem with Satan falling early. It makes sense to me. And it makes sense to me that Apollyon be released early too.

Anyways, I have prove it and I don't know how. I'm hoping my Apollyon thread will shed more light somehow.

brainout | 16 Nov 2015, 21:02

1260 is lunar. 360 day year, 12 months. There are two types of lunar, and the 360 version is what Jewish calendar uses. It rounds the 29.5 to 30, that's all.

You can't just claim that 35 is right. That's like GeneZ claiming Pre-Incarnate Soul using words which don't mean only soul. 35 is a number, even an important number, but its usage is nowhere what you're claiming for the period.

That Satan falls early makes sense to you, is similar. Gene wants the PreIncarnate Soul to be true, it makes sense to him. But where is the Bible proof? Without that, you got nothing to stand on.

I mean, you guys can believe whatever you want. But without Scripture to back you up...

As for Scripture backup for the MIDDLE, there is some.. Daniel 12.

Statue is set up by 1290 days into Trib, it says.
Blessed is anyone who's been OUT of there for 1335 days!

Overlap is 45 days. IN THE MIDDLE. So 2556.75-1335=1221.75, beginning of the exit window Matt 24 warning. You can't put it at the beginning, and since it's a true solar year (which sevens at 364, time Noah in Das Boot), the mid-year isn't 1260, either. But, 1277.375.

Apollyon is not mentioned until Rev 9, Devil is not there at the beginning, so neither is Apollyon. So now what?

Sorry to be rough here, but we can't just claim something in Bible is true because we like it. Dunno about you, but there are many doctrines in the Bible which are not at all likeable, to me.

Anonynomenon | 16 Nov 2015, 23:29

Don't worry about being blunt, I understand exactly what you're saying and you aren't wrong for saying it. I guess the only way to know the sequence for sure would be to meter Revelation like you said. I don't know if I'm prepared to do that. If I do, I'll post it. Until then, speculation doesn't mean much of anything.

brainout | 17 Nov 2015, 00:04

Okay, well I did meter Revelation 1, but I'm not sure what it all means yet. It should be an outline for the entire history (meter is 364, like Noah's year in da boat, plays on the four 91's in Eph1:3-14 structure), see JohnDatelineMeters.pdf or use htm or doc. Whatever it means, should be reflected in each other chapter, but how LONG the metering goes in each chapter, I don't know. I'm fairly certain each one is metered, given the import of knowing how to count the meter then. People then will have to be memorizing Scripture as in ancient times, for Scripture will be like Farenheit 451, then. God help us if we stop using paperbacks and hardbacks, for it will be easy to instantly kill Scripture on the internet.

I don't know when I'll have time to get back to the metering. I did vids on it, though, and will create the thread in TextCrit.

Anonynomenon | 17 Nov 2015, 05:00

I was poking around in Revelation 7 and found what looks like metering. Found some in Revelation 8 too. I was trying to focus on the sealing of the 144K. I'm pretty sure its all metered. I just wonder where a good starting point would be for sequence? Would it be with the 144K or with the Trumpets, or maybe Chapters 9 & 11 like you suggested? Not sure.

brainout | 17 Nov 2015, 07:16

Well, the idea is to parse until it stops metering in even sevens, starting with the first word in the chapter. Of course, the problem is, the 'chapter' might not be right, since the writer didn't use that, example of how Isaiah 53 doesn't start at 53:1, but in 52:13 (samex is at the end of 52:12). So you have to look at the syntax of the prior 'chapter' to see where the real chapter begins, and then start your count.

Then see what the patterns are per CLAUSE, not per verse, like I show in each of the meter videos. There will be a pattern. The first two sevenings are datelines, and the rest goes on until it totals out at some ultimate seven, and then the meter count stops, the rest of the chapter is just plain text.

Here, you've got with elisions, a potential first dateline; you have to keep going until it stops sevening to be sure that's a dateline, even. John is very precise about his dating system, and frankly he uses each clause for the date (though doesn't have to). He might not be using a dateline at all, since he's already disclosed in the text that Rev is a vision; so presumably happens all in one day, like any good Greek play's time backdrop (hahaha, Day of the Lord vision on the Lord's Day, get the pun). For his vision is a Greek quadrilogy, Chaps 1-3=Church; 4-18 Trib; 19-20 Mill; 21 Eternity; 22:6ff, Epilogue.

So here,
15 years after/before x and
10 years after/before y and
12 years after/before z,
11 years after/before aa
and so on.
John might instead use the more traditional dating system, in which case
63 years after/before n and/or
63 sevens after/before b,

So then what are the events tagged by these meters? THAT is the sleuthing needed. The answers are deliberate choices which elucidate the doctrinal meaning of the text.

• 63 years back means nothing.
• Can't go forward, he's writing only 6 years from the expected Mill =94AD=Christ age 97.
• 63 sevens back, Philip of Macedon invaded Thessaly and that didn't work out too well:
• so does John thus tag Daniel 9's meter timeline end point, so to incorporate by reference all of Daniel 9-12?
• Possibly. For his text will concern a new world conqueror who will actually be the 'son' of (the anti-christ indwelt as a son of the indweller). And of course, Rev 7:1 is still Day One of the Tribulation, so 70-7. But then, you already knew that. 👍

See? Likewise, each of the variables xyz etc. and nb if used, must be Biblically significant dates. For the numbers are always used to elucidate the meaning of the text, just as Moses, Isaiah, and Daniel do with their meters:

• Moses writes Genesis1/Psalm90 in the 1050th year after the Flood, when he's 119 years old (just before the year of his death); his total pre-Christ meter in Gen 1 is 1050, so it's played to his theme for Genesis: idea of first civilization unit, origin of the people of Messiah. Notice the equidistance: Moses' terminus leaves 1050 years until Messiah born. (2666 FAF +40 = when he writes, +350 for judges = meter in Psalm 90, +1050=4106, Christ's then scheduled birth +91+7 ellipsis=Mill then-scheduled start in His 98th year; He ends up being born 3.5 years earlier, but potentially could have still been born 4106 From Adam's Fall, when Moses writes.)
• Isaiah writes 42 sevens from David's birth and from Moses endpoint (plus 10); and, in the 42nd year of his own ministry. Metrical theme is first David's birth to last David's death, 1078 (with ellipses counted), and 💡
• Daniel writes 49 years after the Temple went down and 73 sevens from Moses' Psalm 90 endpoint (of 1050BC); Daniel's 742 sevens (x7=1050-56), subsevened into the numbers God will use textually in REPLY, piggybacks on Isaiah using the actual history of kings from David at Hebron to his own captivity then forward to the time of the the Greeks (stopping at what would become Philip of Macedon), petitioning for Temple Restoral given God's promise of the Prophesied Ancient of Days Christos winning, in the end.

So John will be metering on a theme which is doctrinally significant to the text, to elucidate what that text means. Here, the four angels told to hold back the winds (which creates a calamity on earth). If the 63 is right, it means VOTE SHORT, and of course since the Trib is 7 and that's why it occurs, you can well argue that the meter is doctrinally-significant to the text so is likely right.. but you have to keep metering, to see for sure. There has to be some discernible pattern, as noted above for Moses, Isaiah, Daniel.

Anonynomenon | 17 Nov 2015, 18:23

I'm might continue metering Rev 7. I figured the "meta touta" was a good starting place. Do you see a better starting place based on syntax?

brainout | 17 Nov 2015, 18:28

Agreed, John subdivides his text using meta tauta. Here, split screen TV, blocking off the Trib from Church age (last meta tauta was at Rev 4:1, same moment in time, so first day of Trib). So it's a great place to start.

Here are the verses using the phrase: Rev. 1:7, 19; 4:1; 7:1, 9; 9:12; 15:5; 18:1; 19:1, 20:3.

brainout | 08 Jan 2016, 11:26

Ted Cruz' father is a Dominionist, so it seemed good to make a thread on it here. You can look up a number of articles on the false doctrine of Dominionism. I'll put links here which seem useful.

Basically, it's an outgrowth of Replacement Theology, holding that Christ will not return until believers christianize the world. In this, Dominionism comes closest to Islam, for that too is the point of Islam (which also teaches that Christ will return). Therefore all eschatology is denied or recast as the eventuality of Christians making the world ready for Christ, by converting everyone. So the Jews have no national eschatological place. For Church has replaced Israel, see.

So it's an evil doctrine, totally anti-Biblical, yielding of course all the poltical activism and uniting of Church and State that God so vehemently separated in the Mosaic Law. But Dominionists conveniently overlook the massive amounts of OT and NT verses/doctrines which prove their positions, ant-Christ.

Dave Hunt writes against Dominionism, naming those involved in it, here: Kingdom/Dominion Theology - Part I February 1, 1987. Not saying I'm a fan of Dave Hunt, I don't know his stuff well enough, but the article rings true.

Will edit this post de vez en cuando as I find more useful links. If you want to know Ted Cruz' dad's horrific teaching, just type in 'Rafael Cruz' in Youtube and pick any video where his dad (white hair, heavy Cuban accent) talks.

Anonynomenon | 09 Jan 2016, 00:04

It's interesting how America tends to jump back and forth between immoral degeneracy (liberalism) and moral degeneracy (dominionism) when selecting leaders....never any middle ground. It shows that we are a nation with a weak pivot, and our pastors are delivering the wrong message.

brainout | 09 Jan 2016, 04:20

Yeah, well the truth is you live the spiritual life in your HEAD, which sounds suspiciously like the FSM or a copout. I get that. But we have almost nothing on Christ for the first 30 years, so He had ALREADY grown and the result is He walks and talks a lot. That's it.

Meanwhile, everyone is saying that doo-dooing is spiritual. Tough sell, to instead just learn and live on Bible...

brainout | 28 May 2017, 07:15

I haven't updated it, wrote its first five chapters in 2006: PDR.pdf

I don't like parts of it, but still it's a first draft for brainstorming. Write a chapter on yourself, since YOU are in this Trial!

The novel is told from the DEMONS' point of view. What all this is like for THEM. Uses all the material in my LordvSatan webpages that I wrote 2001-2006. Goal is to test the accuracy of the ideas in those pages by trying to 'play' them as a novel. So be skeptical, all this is but theorizing.

Converting PDR to audio, using Firefox addin Text2Voice software (when you convert anything to txt or html great British voices can read it aloud, up to 1.24 hours, and you can download the audio). The newer version is 'Speechify', but I can't get it to work. Maybe you can. So here's the resulting audio of the book:

Novel stops there for now.

Anonynomenon | 16 Nov 2015, 03:01

I created this to discuss the topic of who and what Apollyon is (along with his locust army), and what role he will play during the Tribulation.

***Note:Just so we're clear, this is a subject in which I somewhat disagree with RBT's interpretation. I'm still listening to his Revelation series and have not reached Rev 9 yet, so I have not heard him out completely, but comparing Revelation with OT prophecies paints a slightly different picture of the Tribulation for me. As always, I try to remain open to correction by scripture.***

ταρταρώσας (Tartarus)- This is where the fallen angels who took antediluvian wives are kept.

κρίσιν (judgement)- Those fallen angels are kept in Tararus until judgement.

ἐκρίθησαν (judged)- The occupants of Death and Hades will be judged at the Great White Throne.

Tartarus may be within the Abyss, but the angels in Tartarus are locked up until Judgement Day.

So, who/what is Apollyon?

He is called the Angel of the Abyss, and he does rise from the Abyss with his locust army (Rev 9:11), but they obviously weren't locked in Tartarus for Judgement Day.

Let's start with how Revelation identifies him.

Apollyon appears to be, "the king that was, is not, and will come." He rises from the Abyss (ἀβύσσου).

To re-enforce what I just said. See Rev 11.

Remember that it is Apollyon who kills the Two Witnesses, yet Apollyon is also identified with the 7-headed dragon. It looks to me that Apollyon is the Anti-christ.

brainout | 16 Nov 2015, 06:40

So when WAS he king in the past? For the verse says, "the king that was, is not, and will come."

So the WAS would have to mean a human king or kingdom, as angels were never kings on this earth, and we don't know why or for how long Apollyon was in there. So how do you refute that?

So that's why usually folks treat 'king' to mean RRE. for 'beast' often means a kingdom, political entity, even as 'sea' usually means 'sea of people'.

Anonynomenon | 16 Nov 2015, 07:00

We need to identify the 7 heads. Rome is part of it, but not in the conventional sense. Yes Beast means kingdom too, for all kingdoms have a king, and the Beast that rises from the Abyss is one of the seven heads....the head that was healed.

Angel could be literal or could mean messenger...or both.

I'll elaborate maybe tomorrow. For now, we need to look in OT (beyond Daniel).

brainout | 16 Nov 2015, 07:09

Okay, well I'll have to get out my Rev 9 notes.

Anonynomenon | 24 Apr 2016, 02:41

People are always whipping out fancy calculations in an attempt to unravel the mystery of the Beast's name. What if the answer is much simpler?

Some man named Adoniqam listed in the book of Ezra had 666 sons, so the number of the house/name of Adoniqam is 666.

Adoniqam (אֲדֹנִיקָם) means "my lord has risen".

If it the Beast is Apollyon, and he decides to take the name Adoniqam, then anyone who takes his name as a mark would essentially be saying, that the Beast which rose from the Abyss is their risen lord.

brainout | 25 Apr 2016, 01:06

Well, I don't think 666 is meant to spell a name. Thieme interpreted it as unholy trinity, Fake Messiah, and that to me is enough. But if you want to run with that or some other idea, feel free. God knows we'll never fathom all of Bible fully!

Anonynomenon | 15 Jan 2017, 03:09

I've been thinking some more about Abaddon, and the various chambers of "Hell" (Tartarus vs the Abyss). I'm currently reviewing the topic as part of the intro to the Pale Horse in RBT's Revelation lessons.

My current understanding is that both Jude 1:6 and 2Peter 2:4 are talking about the Sons of Elohim who are locked in Tartarus for spawning the Nephilim. These angels stay in Tartarus until the Judgment. Abaddon rises from the Abyss prior to Judgment (along with a hoard of nasty demons) so its not likely that the Abyss is the same as Tartarus.

My current hypothesis is that Abaddon is the same Beast out of the Abyss described in Rev 17:8, so essentially, Abaddon is the non-Jewish Anti-Christ/the revived head of the Beast. The revived head is said to have existed, ceased, and will be revived (Rev 17:11), so if I understand that correctly it means that Abaddon's kingdom would (hypothetically) have existed, disappeared, and will return.

So here is my thought. What if Abaddon ruled earth before its pre-Adamic destruction and restoration? What if the entire hierarchy of that pre-Adamic kingdom is currently in the Abyss. After all, Abaddon is called the king of the locusts, so its not that much of a stretch in my opinion.

If some or all of this is accurate, then the Beast is Abaddon, and he will be cast into the Lake of Fire with the False Prophet, while Satan is bound in the Abyss for 1000 years. That means Satan and Abaddon are definitely two separate individuals...again, depending on the accuracy of my hypothesis.

brainout | 15 Jan 2017, 06:51

"Abaddon is the non-Jewish Anti-Christ/the revived head of the Beast"? The head is a human, so do you mean Abbadon, not Satan, indwells the Gentile Anti-Christ?

Yeah, since Satan gets the key in Rev9 and Abaddon comes out from Abussos, seems clear they are not the same person. Maybe Satan's old adjutant or something pre-Adam.

Wish there were some OT ref to him.

Anonynomenon | 15 Jan 2017, 23:31

It's certainly plausible that Abaddon takes possession of a human leader, but I don't really see it in the text. Is there anything that explicitly states that the gentile anti-Christ must be human??

brainout | 16 Jan 2017, 03:43

Yeah, King of the North in Daniel 11:35ff is a human. Question of who indwells him, Satan or Abaddon, I guess.

Anonynomenon | 16 Jan 2017, 04:50

Ok, I see that now, plus Paul calls him the man of sin. It must be kind of like Ezekiel 28, where God speaks both to the prince of Tyre, and to Satan (as the king of Tyre).

Wouldn't Rev 17:8 then confirm that the gentile anti-Christ is actually possessed by Abaddon instead of Satan?

Its also interesting how Daniel 9:26 calls the gentile anti-Christ a prince instead of king (which is a title used in both Dan 11:35 and Rev 17:10).

Notice also that the temporary leader in Dan 11:20 is not called a king either (though his successor is). Nor does it say he is killed, but simply broken. Maybe the guy in Dan 11:20 becomes the King of the North because of Abaddon?

If this is the case, then the guy in Dan 11:20 is the 7th Head in Rev 17:10, and becomes the 8th Head (aka Dan 35:21) when possessed by Abaddon.

What do you think?

brainout | 30 Oct 2015, 06:21

Most 'end-time' movies are sheer garbage of no Biblicity. They just mention the word 'Revelation' from time to time, and one of the buzzwords in it. That's about how close some of these movies come to any relation to the Bible.

Even so, the "Final Rapture" video ending this post is very worth watching, even though like all the others, it is clueless about the Gospel. It never makes clear how you get saved. The others, state false gospels. So you wonder why anyone would waste his and your time making movies like this, if you can't know WHY the Rapture is important, and WHAT it is and HOW to be saved from it. Oh well.

Even so, it's best to purchase a movie, or rent it; ideally, after some trial view so you know you won't want to return it. Problem is, I can't find these for purchase or rental, so have to post the Youtube links.

So they serve a very different purpose: illustrating how and why what the Bible DOES say, is valid. For example, don't you wonder how so many people can be so dumb as to fall for an anti-christ, when the details are so many and so well known for so long? Don't you wonder how anyone could be anti-semitic, or could assemble by the millions in the Valley of Esdraelon, as Bible foretells?

And of course, these apocalyptic movies do try to dramatize that, but they get it so WRONG (i.e., assuming that 200 million DEMONS clearly depicted in Rev 9 are really the Chinese) -- that's how you know how realistic the Bible is. The plain warning is in plain sight -- so we can't read it rightly!

So without further ado, here's the utterly laughable, apostate Christian and Gail Riplinger fav, The Omega Code. Treating the Bible like a crossword puzzle, as if stuff God says were 'hidden' (yeah, to those who won't READ it). But the acting is worth watching, esp. how Michaels Ironside and York handle their roles:

Omega Code 2 Megiddo is an alternate version (sans the goofy Code), how the Western anti-Christ, came to exist. Again, the movie has no resemblance whatsoever to Bible. The words in Bible are bandied about but what Bible says is so different, you can't help but be embarrassed that TBN ever put its name on the production. They are dead now, and know better. So in deference to them, you need to see how terribly WRONG we Christians get it, to better understand how wrong the world will be, when the actual events occur. For we Christians are baffled why unbelievers don't believe. Well, they get it even more wrong when reading Bible, than we do!

Enter Apocalpyse 1 (aka Apocalypse), replete with cheesy music, amateurish directing and camerawork, horrible acting bordering on SNL satire, no understanding of Scripture: but again that's the point of posting. The people behind the movie are so pathetic, they can't even get the Gospel right, using a passage to apostate believers in Laodicea in Rev 3:20, as if it were the Gospel? (Rev 1:11 says TO THE CHURCHES WRITE not to unbelievers, duh; and Rev 3:14 said to the MESSENGER (angelos=pastor, here) at Laodicea, write.)

How incompetent can you get? So are the people making this picture, even SAVED? Look how many denominations (='demon nations' one S. California Baptist pastor quipped to me circa 1999) -- get it wrong: the Catholics, Calvinists, SDA, Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, the people behind this movie, countless other denoms, all of them claim you have to DO something to be saved. So then maybe none of them are saved. Wouldn't Satan want the unsaved to be considered 'Christians'? To mess up the message how you GET saved?

Bible says BELIEVE CHRIST PAID FOR YOUR SINS is what eternally saves you, John 3:16 and many other verses. The nanosecond you 'did' that, you're forever saved. Can't reverse it, can't sin some sin to undo it. But do these Impe Christians know that? NOOOOO. That's why they stay on TBN week after week spewing nonsense which curses the world. Drooling over events rather than drooling over learning Bible Doctrine. This is why the yield in the Seed parables are so low: 30 fold (meaning only 3% believers are growing), 60-fold (only 1.5%), and 100-fold (1%). The rest, are dead even while they live (carnal, topic of 1John).

But good for a laugh or a grimace. For the 'sudden disappearance' at 21 minutes, evidenced by CAREFULLY FOLDED CLOTHING ON SIDEWALKS is a nice (and deliberate) touch:

Apocalypse 2 (aka Revelation, 2nd in the quadrilogy starring Nick Mancuso) has much better production values, script, direction, acting, and some moments which are doctrinally accurate or at least plausible, thought-provoking:

Third in the series, is 'Tribulation' again with Mancuso, but now also with Gary Busey and Margot Kidder. Cheesy filming and directing, but at times has a good script. The video's 'Final Hour' title is not native to the film, so far as I can tell.

Last in the series is Apocalypse IV Judgment again with Nick Mancuso, but newly with Corbin Bernsen. Production values and script are much better, still not accurate re Gospel, but thought-provoking on the overall question of 'God' and how we humans quickly become hitlerian.. all without being preachy. The movie stands alone if you saw even only Apocalypse. You can buy the whole collection in Amazon, here.

Someone posted Judgment in seven parts with terrible resolution but clear sound, here:

Its Spanish counterpart is El Juicio, clearly spoken in 12 parts, no playlist.

Now for somewhat better (but still Biblically-inaccurate) version, watch Mark of the Beast, with Eric Roberts and some unknowns who really make the movie work. Plot is pathetic, Bible never says that Rapture means millions of disappearances which are disruptive, but hey.

This one's a keeper, worth watching over and over: Final: The Rapture. Why 'Final' I don't know, there's only ONE -- this version is offbeat, slow-burn; somehow its amateurish 'reality tv' quasi-documentary filming style works, has authenticity. It's very realistic in certain ways, uncomfortably so:

'Left Behind' is in Youtube too, but it's so bad, I can't bring myself to post it here. Might change mind and do it later.

What's so ironic: the actual story the Bible tells would be a blockbuster movie making everyone rich. So it is possible to become rich and famous yet not be corrupt. Yet no Bible movie ever made is even remotely competent. So they fail at the box office, too.

brainout | 01 Nov 2015, 03:33

First, Bible never says that there will be millions raptured up at once, creating disruption. It's left open. And it makes no sense for God to do it in a way that causes millions of deaths in the very act, since the whole point OF the Rapture, is to keep reminding people God exists and how to be saved. They've gotten bored of the current system, even as the Jews got bored in the OT, so now the announcement mechanism must be more .. ahem, abrupt. But you don't kill the people you're trying to save, right?

So it's more likely to be quiet and peaceful, in terms of societal structures. No disappearing busdrivers, cabbies, drivers period of anything while they are driving. Seriously, to claim He'd do this is to insult Him. He has proven time and again He likes subtle, for Church. Ok: we all have to stop and pee...

That quiet ambivalence, aids Satan too.

Moreover, the Rapture verb in 1Thess4:17, Greek harpazw, was used for snatching up women in a raid. Now you've seen this so often on TV, maybe you don't remember how that worked:

ONE guy sees ONE woman at ONE moment and takes her.

Somewhere else, happening possibly at the same moment, someone else does that to some other woman. But more usually, the moments are NOT simultaneous.

So repeated moments, singularly happening, THROUGHOUT the raid.

Then you've the noun apantesis, a bunch of people coming to the same place but singularly, at different times, kinda like people all going to see an opera or a rock concert. It's ONE event, but different arrivals, not everyone arriving at the same time. So you see, the droolers over these horrible anti-Biblical Rapture movies, don't do their Bible Homework. I'm embarrassed for them.

Okay, so then is it disruptive? Doesn't have to be. Some believer who's a plane pilot has just landed and gets zapped. INCLUDING HIS CLOTHING. So you don't know what happened to him, and have no reason to suspect it, right away. Or, he's asleep in bed. Remember, it's nightime for 12 hours every day somewhere on the planet.

Or, and this is more Biblical: no one left will believe, and of the believers no one left will grow, so the Rapture occurs when whoever is the last believer to GROW, stops growing. Last person who will mature in Christ, stops, completes. That would make a blockbuster movie, and it's the most Biblical, given Ephesians 4:12-13 is the criterion for the Rapture.

Like a fruit when it ripens, if you wait too long it goes sour. God will know when we corporately are ripe. Not fair to Rapture earlier or later than that.

Which means no one on earth remains, and precious few might believe or be growing. So not disruptive for that reason, either. Wish someone would make a movie depicting that more likely scenario.

Anonynomenon | 05 Nov 2015, 05:07

Oh God, I can't stand those Apocalypse movies. Just so cheesy it makes me want to gag just thinking about them. I went to see the "new & improved" Left Behind movie cuz Nicolas Cage was in it (and I kinda like him), but I was soooo disappointed. I don't think they mentioned even once Jesus dying for our sins...but whatever, that's Hollywood.

I don't see the "millions vanishing" being very likely either, but at the same time, wouldn't the Rapture have to be public in some way? I mean isn't it one of the signs that the Tribulation has started? Or maybe not, since OT prophecies never involved Church or Rapture in the first place.

Its hard to say. Just because a number of believers exist at one time, doesn't mean that any of them are growing much at all. Some could be going through the finishing touches while others are simply there to convert air into CO2.

But then you have the Fifth Cycle doctrine. If the Church must be carried by a succession of Client Nations, then the Rapture could be the Fifth Cycle event (or biggy backing it). That might be public, or the chaos of the Fifth Cycle event could mask the Rapture altogether...and the world would never know what happened :devil: . Well, I'm sure the 144k would put 2&2 together eventually.

guest | 15 Nov 2015, 21:20

But I think some Trib believers will figure out what "happened" to us. We will be missed. We really stand out you know. lol. And I think our disappearance will help them understand what time they are in.

Very interesting subject.

brainout | 16 Nov 2015, 11:32

Really was, for Europe. When you think about how the Black Death, persecution of the Jews, invasion by the Mongols (their rise and the Black Death are co-eval), Leviticus 26 and Deut 28 come to mind. Implication, MAYBE -- that before the Rapture hits, maybe this stuff does. So maybe the actual Rapture will take place amidst war already? Just thinking out loud.

brainout | 19 Nov 2015, 21:23

You've just GOT to watch this movie, at least the first 30 minutes. The script is extremely fast-read, packed with sight and sound gags, so pay close attention. Expects you to know Revelation and the stupid Left Behind apostate movies, very well...

I hope I can buy it somewhere. Watch for the talking locust at 8:40 on the kitchen floor... 🤣🤣

guest | 20 Nov 2015, 05:40

Thanks for the link. I watched this tonight. Though satire, it does make some really interesting observations, especially how life goes on whatever the circumstances may be. It was the deadpan attitude of the two main characters that made it funny for me. Last 1/3 of movie did give me heartburn though.

brainout | 20 Nov 2015, 05:55

Yeah, me too. The deadpan in particular. That style of humor is good in short doses.

brainout | 14 Oct 2017, 12:01

This Rapture movie, like the others, presumes a mass disappearance, which nothing in Bible confirms. Even so, it's not as hokey as many, so might be worth watching. Its title, is The Moment After. It screws up the Gospel, like they all do. It has a sequel '2'.

Here's its simpering sequel, The Moment After 2

brainout | 14 Oct 2017, 12:59

This one has everyone Christian dying as the Rapture. Souls exit, bodies remain behind. Makes more sense, except that Bible says we just go up, bodies changing WHILE we go up. Not death. Even so, it's an idea, nothing's 100% bad.

Anonynomenon | 16 Apr 2016, 05:07

A very popular view of the Two Witnesses during the Tribulation is that their identities are Moses and Elijah. This is also a view that RBT held. The main reasons are that Moses and Elijah were both present at the Transfiguration of our Lord, and of course, Rev 11 attributes to the Two Witnesses the authority that was granted to Moses and Elijah in the OT.

I've heard others say that the Two Witnesses are Enoch and Elijah, or even Zerubbabel and Joshua.

How likely is it that none of these people are the Two Witnesses? Could it be that the Two Witnesses are simply two Tribulation believers who are given the task of witnessing? Just as John the Baptist came as a type of Elijah, could it be that the Two Witnesses are simply types of Moses and Elijah?

Maybe their 3.5 year ministry is supposed to demonstrate accelerated spiritual maturity under pressure, with its peak at their martyrdom.

brainout | 16 Apr 2016, 09:01

Yeah, that makes sense. Actually, I seem to remember the Colonel later hedging on the 'traditional' view that the Two Witnesses were resurrected OT folk. I want to say he did this hedging in the Rev classes (1981-85), but I'd have to look it up in my notes. Or, maybe he revisited the idea during 1992 Spiritual Dynamics. In any case, like you, I don't believe they are resurrected OT folk, but current living believers, maybe part of the 144K. Definitely Jews.

To me the dead giveaway is the fact they get killed. You can't kill resurrected folk. And why would Moses and Elijah be resuscitated after thousands of years? No one would believe they were Moses and Elijah, but if they were current living believers, others would know them from birth, etc. So that would better attest their sudden 'magical' powers as from God, no?

Anonynomenon | 16 Apr 2016, 17:52

Yeah, I agree.

And what about after their mid-trib deaths? Are they resurrected or just resuscitated? I don't see why they would be resurrected before the rest of the Tribulation martyrs, yet rising 3.5 days later might tie to Christ's resurrection.

RonEzboulder | 16 Apr 2016, 20:10

You're crazy!
I searched the KJV!
I got 655 results for ". . . king of . . .", and 49 results for ". . . prince of . . ." !!
They will obviously be: Elvis, and probably Michael Jackson !!

brainout | 17 Apr 2016, 01:01

LOL Ron!🕺💃🎩

RonEzboulder | 09 May 2016, 20:18

Is it possible that, of the "two witnesses", one is of that-there fleamale persuasion?

I had always thought that there was something peculiar about Joshua and Zerubbabel in the OT books of the bible. Recently, while watching a "Revelation Seminar" program on T.V. and it was noted by a Christian college professor named Stephenovich (may be misspelled), that in Rev.11:8 the original GREEK word translated as the two English words "dead bodies" (in the KJV), is actually SINGULAR. To me, this rang a bell. To help verify it I looked at both the "Companion Bible" edited by E.W. Bullinger (with its extensive notes and structures), and the "Commentary on Revelation", also written by Bullinger. These two indeed confirmed that in verse 8 the Greek word is singular. Also, according to Bullinger, of the two occurrences in verse 9, ONLY ONE of them was plural. I thought to myself: "Somethings afoot here Watson!". To further confirm these curiosities I checked the Interlinear version text on my PCStudy Bible, and sure enough, in verse 8 the Greek word is "ptoma". In verse 9, the first is "ptoma", but the second is "ptomata" (plural, I ass-u-me, not being a Greek scholar).

In Revelation 11 the "two witnesses" are equated with the "two olive trees, and the two candlesticks", as given in the book of Zechariah. After they have finished their testimony, the beast from the bottomless pit kills them (Rev. 11:7). But with the "corrections" to the words in verses 8 and 9, you would have the effect of:

8 And their DEAD BODY [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their DEAD BODY three days and an half, and shall not suffer their DEAD BODIES to be put in graves.

In two of the instances, it is as if they are considered, by God, as ONE PERSON. Don't you find that peculiar? How about:
"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be ONE FLESH." (Gen. 2:24 KJV).
Though I don't believe that, as translated, to be the precise meaning of the verse, it did make me recall the passages concerning Joshua and Zerubbabel. In Zechariah, Joshua and Zerubbabel seem to be almost force-tied to one-another. Some examples include:

"... unto Joshua ... my servant the BRANCH ... I will give thee PLACES TO WALK among THESE THAT STAND BY." (Zech. 3:6-9 KJV), and
"For behold THE STONE that I have laid before Joshua; upon ONE STONE [shall be] SEVEN EYES: behold I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, ..." (Zech. 3:9 KJV).

"Zerubbabel ... shall bring forth THE HEADSTONE ..." (Zech. 4:7 KJV), and
"For who hath despised the day of small things ? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel [with] THOSE SEVEN; they [are] THE EYES of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth." (Zech. 4:10 KJV).

Question: Are there two stones, two SETS of sevens, and two SETS of similar eyes, OR, are the stones, the sevens, and the eyes THE SAME?

And note how the bible MIGHT be smoothly intermixing the two persons in Zech. 6:12-13 (KJV): [[Let me insert here that some scholars believe that Joshua was intended to receive the Priest's crown, and Zerubbabel was INTENDED to receive the King's crown..]]

"And speak unto him (SINGULAR), saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name [is] The BRANCH; and he (JOSHUA) shall grow up OUT OF HIS PLACE (JOSHUA), and he (ZERUBBABEL) shall build the temple of the LORD:" "Even he (ZERUBBABEL) shall build the temple of the LORD; and he (JOSHUA) shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne (JOSHUA [AS Zerubbabel]); and he (JOSHUA) shall be a priest upon his throne (JOSHUA [AS Zerubbabel]): and the COUNSEL OF PEACE shall be between them both (JOSHUA & ZERUBBABEL)."

NOTE: MY ADDITIONS ARE SIMPLY FOR TRACKING PURPOSES, AND ARE IN PARENTHESIS.

Now, tentatively accepting such insanity, you might ask: "Well; which might be which?"
"Then take silver and gold, and make crowns ("crowns" plural), and set [them] upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;" (Zech. 6:11 KJV).
Joshua got the crowns, Zerubbabel got zip. Now wouldn't that be just like one of them-there fleamale types; "What's mine, IS MINE, and what's his, IS MINE !"

Now we get to another thing, which would tie to the above . . .
"And THE CROWNS shall be to Helem, and to Tobijah, and to Jedaiah, and to Hen the son of Zephaniah, FOR A MEMORIAL in the temple of the LORD." (Zech. 6:14 KJV).
Why would you need, the crowns, to be "for a memorial"? Well, lets ignore the prophetic, Messianic "King and Priest", aspects for a moment . . .
"crown" < Heb. "atarah", Stg. #5850 = "crown" or "wreath" < "atar" #5849 = "to encircle", "to crown", "to surround".
If we tried, and without too much effort, we could get "the rings" instead of "the crowns", from those. "Wedding rings"? Modern concept? Not so! Rings have been A SIGN of possession since time immemorial. And how about:
"In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O ZERUBBABEL, MY SERVANT, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as A SIGNET: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts." (Hagg. 2:23 KJV)? "Signet" = "sign".
Lets see: "the rings" . . . "a memorial" . . . "a signet".

To conclude, I'm not saying that JOSHUA was one of them-there fleamale types. But, in that, the passages concerning two Witnesses in Revelation references BACK TO the two Olive Trees (etc.), MAYBE, just MAYBE, Zechariah is FORWARD referencing, symbolically, the two Witnesses.

Well, it WAS just a passing thought . . .

brainout | 09 May 2016, 23:45

Okay, someone's drinking a bit too much koolaid. Not you, but the 'noted' scholars. In GREEK, you have several ways of signifying plural. The actual Rev 11:8 words are ptoma autwn. The ptoma is NEUTER, lit., what fell, a verbal noun from Greek verb piptw, which means to fall. So a verbal noun based on a verb, needn't be plural, since 'what fell' is the proper translation, to signify no longer human; 'autwn' is masc genitive PLURAL, so no females, and TWO. It's the autwn which modifies the noun, clearly showing OF THEM, lit. THEIRS.

You can get Thayer's lexicon (very respected) and look up ptoma in it. You can get theWord Bible software for free, and I think they have a module for Thayer, which means you can easily see the lexicon when you hover your mouse over the Hebrew or Greek word.

Instead, here I used Bibleworks 9, as I started with that software over a decade ago (first bought Bibleworks 4 from a seminary and have been using it ever since, upgrading). The ACTUAL MSS are in Bibleworks, so you can see the original words. It costs $350. There's even a way to install it in Linux, but I've not done that, yet.

BW is better for you, if you ask God for the money: it has FLASHCARDS and AUDIO to help you learn the Hebrew and Greek. You can hear it while you do dishes. But frankly, I've never had to use them. My pastor just kept on teaching the vocabulary form of the words in each Bible passage, www.rbthieme.org . Anonynomenon and several other here, studied under him too. So I never learned it except through class. Once I got Bibleworks 30+ years later, it was easy to read.

Looks like the folks you're citing, failed first-year seminary Bible Greek. So the rest, is likewise suspect. Sorry.

RonEzboulder | 10 May 2016, 04:03

Ah, come on brainout! EVERYBODY in the WHOLE world, and in ALL past history is wrong but YOU! GIVE IT A BREAK! IT WAS A F___ING JOKE! LIGHTEN UP FOR GODS SAKE!

NOW, an addendum to my previous post of this date.

In writing the previous post I almost forgot one of the most important points.

Just prior to the introduction of the two witnesses in Rev. 11, John states:
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months. (Rev. 11:1-2 KJV).

Now, Zechariah chapter 4, seems FUSE the discussion of the "olive trees" and the "candle sticks' with the rebuilding of the Temple by Zerubbabel. Start reading at Zech. 4:1, but especially note verse 9:

"The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you." (KJV)

By combining the verses in Zechariah in the manner that it was done, seems to bind securely these portions of the two books together!
. . . and dats the truf!

brainout | 10 May 2016, 04:18

Okay, I don't know what I said to engender your strong reaction, but EVERY translation of Rev 11:8 I have in any language, translates it as their corpses. Which is, the proper translation.

As for your fusing of Zech 4 to Rev11, 'candlesticks' and 'olive trees' are never used of the Two Witnesses. Those terms refer to pastors of churches (or rabbis over synagogues).

brainout | 25 Aug 2015, 00:23

For my own videos on Genesis, demonstrating live from Hebrew and sometimes Greek what Bible says about origin, click here.

By contrast or similarity, your own ideas positions proofs are to be the substance of this topic. So use the videos or not as your framework. I won't debate this issue anymore, the proof against the young earthers is too obvious from Bible itself, and the whole topic is irrelevant.

Evolution too is a non-argument, for you can easily see it as a decree for flora and fauna in Gen 1:24-25, but not for man, who is immaterial by nature, Gen 1:26-27. If immaterial, directly created by God at birth (the 'at birth' being covered in Gen 2:7 and many later passages), then man cannot be evolved, as what makes you HUMAN is immaterial, not biological.

Now, maybe you disagree with that, which is your prerogative. But I won't debate these topics anymore. Ask questions, I'll answer; but not debate or argue. Not here to sell you anything.

Genez | 13 Dec 2015, 07:16

Its not the body that determines what sex we are. God simply provided an appropriate body to suit the souls he created. In Heaven there will be male and female souls in resurrection bodies. Just no reproduction. No marriage.

Just as the Father initiates, the Son and Holy Spirit respond. Within the unity of resurrected believers the same aspect will be reflected in love. IMHO.

brainout | 13 Dec 2015, 15:04

If IMmaterial souls have gender, why does Christ say we have no gender in heaven, but are like the angels? You don't get a new soul at death. For the soul is the real you.

Verses: Matt. 22:30; Mk. 12:25; Lk. 20:34f

Anonynomenon | 13 Dec 2015, 16:59

Angels had the ability to produce nephilim. That is suggestive of gender.

brainout | 13 Dec 2015, 17:09

BODY gender, not soul. Angels are made of light, so they can make their BODIES any way they want.

Anonynomenon | 13 Dec 2015, 18:29

Maybe, but the fallen angels lusted after human women.

So what came first, the gender or the lust?

brainout | 13 Dec 2015, 19:11

How is there lust if no body, since lust is a product OF the body that the soul gives into?

Anonynomenon | 13 Dec 2015, 19:30

Well, for us, temptation is in the flesh and we sin by giving in. But what about the fallen angels? If no body, then no temptation?

brainout | 13 Dec 2015, 20:54

Not all temptation is coming from the body. There are temptations of both kinds. LUST requires a body to fulfill it, and LUST is something felt IN the body. Angels' bodies are made of light, so they can MAKE themselves a PHYSICAL body which has gender.

Light has no gender.

The goal of taking on male bodies to copulate with women was actually an attempt to prevent the Humanity of Christ by tainting all humanity so that no pure humans would be left. So the 'lust' was secondary.

If you have the Genesis tapes you'll get more info on that, in the section on Genesis 6.

shadowimage | 20 Dec 2015, 11:06

Our souls are running on biology (it needs 'something' to run on). And if that BODY has systems affixed to it, the soul will operate around that body. For example, if someone has an overwhelming 'feeling' of emotion, typically the soul reacts to it. Women are generally more emotional due to the BODY, but not the soul.

Therefore, your body is never 'you' and your soul has no gender-- it's especially ridiculous since gender comprises of physical components when the soul isn't. And it would be unjust for God to create our sole identities based on grab-bag characteristics from our parents! And you run into problems when you have twins (although it's proven that twins can be completely different from one another mentally).

It's very difficult for people to understand that our bodies are automatons that aren't 'us', however. And so you have people that gawk over their appearance and trivial things since they believe 'it's all they've got, in this one-shot lifetime'. Okay...

Genez | 27 Dec 2015, 04:31

Look: you're not hearing Thieme's teaching rightly on that and you're not reading the Greek rightly, either. THEY DO NOT MARRY NOR ARE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE means not male or female. Why don't you understand that? God made the Eden couple MALE AND FEMALE for MARRIAGE, to depict the MARRIAGE of God and creation. In heaven, that MARRIAGE is consummated between God and creation, so marriage between creatures is no longer necessary. That's the ONENESS Christ prayed for in John 17, and that's why CHURCH is Bride. So we have no gender in heaven also, because as a GROUP we are HIS Bride.

All this is patent. Thieme taught it, too.

You know I like you a bunch, but on this one topic you are so blind and stubborn, no further discourse between you and me is possible. You and I might talk on other topics, but I will no longer reply to you on this one. You have much homework to do.

Brainout? Are you reading that accurately?

Jesus did not say that angels have no gender. Angels in the Greek always appear in the masculine gender.

Jesus never said they have no gender. He simply said they do not marry. Paul did not marry. John did not marry. Jeremiah did not marry. They had no gender?

God created (bara) man 'male and female' in Genesis 1:27. No bodies for the souls were provided yet until the next chapter. Those bodies were not created (bara). Adam's body was molded and formed (jatsar) from what had already been created, elements of the earth. In contrast to Adam's body, the woman's body was taken from the material removed of Adam's body and built up from a little, into a lot. Just like Jesus took the few loaves and produced enough bread to feed thousands.

Grace and peace....

Anonynomenon | 27 Dec 2015, 05:45

Genez has a good point. Gen 1:26 repeats three times that human souls where created from nothing (bara).

Gen 5:2 repeats the last portion of that statement. If God simply formed man to be male and female, why not use yatsar rather than bara?

brainout | 27 Dec 2015, 20:13

Yatser means to SCULPT; bara, to CREATE FROM NOTHING (though some scholars dispute that); bana means TO BUILD. So you sculpt from something MATERIAL. God is not material. Gender is material. Not a soul. A body. Something built or sculpted.

So THINK, please: Gen 1:27 is a DECREE when there IS NOTHING. So bara is used throughout. God is precise.

So would you claim God is male or female? Seriously? Like the pagans do? When the Bible flat contradicts that, God is Spirit, John 4:24? So then like the Mormons, you claim God has a body? SERIOUSLY?

I guess Bible and Thieme's classes in Genesis are confusing to you?

Genez | 29 Dec 2015, 05:10

You are confusing sexual ability with gender. A little boy, or girl, are not sexual. Yet, they are genders. The Father and Son are gender specific in the Greek. Are they not? Is the Father material?

Jesus is the husband and the church is his bride. Gender has to do with mindset. Initiator and responder. Male and female. Put them in a body and require them to reproduce? We then find male and female "sexuality."

Male and female in the spiritual realm has to do with "give and take." Which in turn, becomes "take and give." Initiation and response... and then the responding to the response of the responder. "Give and take."

In the material realm God has provided (for today) bodies that manifest this expression of one's soul in sexuality. But sexuality is not exclusively the basis for determining gender. For, the wise grandfather who is not sexually active may very well be masculine in his thought pattern... While Abraham was sexually dead? He was still being male in gender of his soul.

Genez | 29 Dec 2015, 19:17

The Word tells us that after Genesis 1 was completed? That God rested from any more "bara." No more creating something out from nothing. That is what He rested from.

Genesis 2:1-3
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing;
so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed
the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all
the work of creating (bara) that he had done.

There was no more seeing God performing "bara" to be found after Genesis 1. Starting with Genesis 2, we now find only Jatsar and Banah in regards to the bodies of Adam and the woman.

Yet? It says in Genesis 1:27 that God (Elohyim) created (bara) the souls male and female! There were no male and female bodies yet to be found when God created them male and female.

shadowimage | 10 Jan 2016, 10:24

But back up a little, if we're created in God's image (sentience), that would mean God is both male and female if our souls had gender attributed to them. Obviously our souls are GENDERLESS so too is God. If our souls were gendered then God is a hermaphrodite since 'His image' would demand both to be affixed to it.

Or-- we could take it another avenue. If God was male as a part of "His image", then all females would have to have male souls, yet somehow female souls at the same time. And you get a big cesspit of nonsensicality.

The father and son being one has nothing to do with gender, since Elohim predates mammals and planet earth (NOT TO MENTION; GOD CREATED GENDER AND WOULDN'T BE LIMITED TO HIS OWN DESIGNS SINCE HE IS THE DESIGNER AND THUS ALWAYS 'BEYOND' WHAT WE SEE AND KNOW; saying He is a gender is like saying the baker IS the rolling pin). Since us humans are so STUPID God has to create baby analogies for us. And we always turn the analogies into literal meanings (re: God being gendered, the eucharist cookie, baptismal regeneration, etc).

"oh but Jesus Christ is a man blub blub blub"-- Jesus Christ took on the role of a man, but never had a physical human body prior. That's a unique element and I would reiterate the Father (and Spirit) is still genderless.

Genez | 11 Jan 2016, 03:37

Genesis 1:26-27
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,
so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the
livestock and all the wild animals,and over all the creatures that move along
the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

The Church is the "bride." And, forever will the Holy Spirit be indwelling the Bride. The Son is not going to be married to another male. Females were also created in God's image. Male and Female has to do with response and initiation, not sexual gender.

Simply, said.. Both souls were created male and female before any body was provided. Souls, created "ex nihilio." Out from nothing. Male and female could not have been referring to the body.

That requires faith to accept. Just like Abraham could not understand how Sarah and him were to have a son at their very advanced age. Faith makes no sense to those who require concrete proof.

Anonynomenon | 11 Jan 2016, 05:06

@ Genez

I'm still undecided on the soul gender issue (I'll have to do more research on the subject), but the Bride's relationship with Christ only identies God with masculinity as the authority, and Humanity with femininity as the responder to authority.

shadowimage | 11 Jan 2016, 06:18

You're mixing two concepts together that have nothing to do with one another (like a Catholicke priest saying he can turn a cookie into the body of Christ with some magickal movements). God says mankind is to be made in His image (SENTIENCE, WHICH MEANS SOUL). This cannot have a gender since it would make God into a hermaphrodite. You haven't addressed this problem, either.

I haven't got to Genesis 27 in the Hebrew yet (taking a long time to go through all of it)-- but the soul and gender faculties are separated-- God didn't create a living soul or bodies at that point yet. So to say that the TEMPLATE God created of nonliving souls and bodies soon to be created, are actually gendereized souls, is ridiculous.

God created Soul (His image), and genderized bodies like the animals. Note that IN HIS IMAGE does not refer to 'male and female' (they're split). It would have to, to allow gender to be applied to soul. Also, as we mentioned, God would also have to be a hermaphrodite.

The church being the bride and Paul's sex analogies are... analogies. It's not literal. Christ's flesh and blood, the church being the bride? Not literal.

It's still a dead end argument because if we share what is God's, His image would also have to have both genders. But if you say that we simply share sentience then everything makes sense, and we can say the church being the bride is not literal.

To say that our souls are gender-hard coded would be like saying the Godhead roles are hard-coded. God is co-equal and BY CHOICE operates on different tiers. Likewise our SOULS operate on different tiers given the circumstances of gender, occupation, maturity, etc etc.

Anonynomenon | 11 Jan 2016, 15:53

@shadowimage

I wasn't implying that God is masculine by nature, but that God takes on the role of what we understand as masculinity. I was simply pointing out that our Bridal relationship with Christ does not support soul gender in any way.

It would make sense that gender only exists for the Husband-wife relationship on earth to mirror the believer's relationship with Christ. In that case, no soul gender needed.

Genez | 12 Jan 2016, 04:22

In the beginning Adam and the woman were not trained to function in any role. They were what they were designed to be.

Anonynomenon | 12 Jan 2016, 05:20

@ Genez

You have a good point, but at the same time, Adam was created before Eve, and Eve's body was crafted from Adam's rib. So maybe that foreshadows the Husband-wife relationship. But like I said, I'm not prepared to make a conclusive decision on the subject yet.

Genez | 15 Jan 2016, 07:01

Adam and Eve's souls were created (bara) at the same time in Genesis 1:27. They were created (bara) out from nothing.

Its the body which was not created (bara), but was made from what had already been created, was technically produced at the same time. For the exact same substance for Adam's body was the same for the woman. It had been removed from Adam's body. They shared the same body separately... For they were "one flesh."

shadowimage | 17 Jan 2016, 21:17

Actually, Genesis 1:27 doesn't seem to imply that God created Adam and Eve's souls exclusively, but rather Psalm 139:16.

So God created SOULS (after sentience like Him), and then the template system for the capacity of reproduction and roles afterwards-- which has nothing to DO with the soul specifically (like in James 1 and 2, gender here would only be 'inadvertently' referenced). I don't have BW installed on my system since it was re-imaged to Windows 8.1 (which I had to install twice):

There's a lot to this actually (because it's implying God foreknew the fall of man--of course He did-- but if man didn't fall and that was always a possibility, then those souls would have to be reallocated somewhere else after Adam would have completed the angelic trial). Which is most likely what would have happened, since God would have always had 'us' in mind even if Adam didn't fall.

Genesis 1:27 from my observations looks to be agnostic from explicitly referring to Adam & Eve but to all of humanity. Because Adam and Eve didn't have their souls active yet, and when their bodies were finally created Adam was first. So then it would be impossible for gender to have a space here... since gender was not yet associated to the souls. And here's the kicker, if God had all souls in mind, and Adam DIDN'T fall, then it would be *impossible* for the souls to be keyed to gender, as the other sons--us who came after adam--would probably not be in a genderized body.

Now what God *does* do is figure out the variables and impute a soul to whichever gender *best suits* the soul (which is where we get into the 'inadvertently' referencing gender). The best way for someone to figure that out is to see what God has provisioned in their life, and what He wants you to do. There's situations where everyone violates their roles; and often it is done out of not having Bible Doctrine in your frontal lobe, so you LOSE freedom since without doctrine, you're barely aware of what's happening).

God creating Eve from Adam is purely for a concept for us to think about, it has nothing to do with souls in Genesis 1:27 directly. It would be like saying God re-using the TOHUWABOHU earth is somehow related to our souls. Not really. The concept implies God using what's there-- of course this is changed when the lake of fire and new jerusalem are created from scratch and all of the 'old world' is *completely* burned up. God using biological hierarchy wouldn't have a direct effect on the soul's independence. It would actually be unjust for God to do, as he'd be hard-coding a soul with no choice. Whereas if God gives you a body based on what He thinks is best contoured to you, is upholding your freedom.

Genez | 18 Jan 2016, 03:48

Exclusively? I had no intention to jump where you may want me to leap. God created Adam and the woman's souls that we see in Genesis 2. The soul is created (bara). The bodies are not.

That's all I wanted to say.

shadowimage | 19 Jan 2016, 09:06

You've created that box yourself by using that to say God created genderized souls (NOT me).

Genez | 20 Jan 2016, 06:48

I did? Genesis 1:27

"So God created man in His own image; in the image of God
He created him; male and female He created them."

Male and female.... Please exegete? The bodies in Genesis 2 were not 'bara.' Only in Genesis 1 were male and female created *out from nothing.* The bodies were produced out from what was already created.

I would like to see you present to me how what was created out from nothing was not male and female. Not our concept of male and female in our limited scope of understanding, of course. Yet, male and female just the same. Just look at how males and females think and feel differently. Now, remove their genitals and think of them as being both male and female. One is the initiator... and one by design is the responder. Gender will be taken to a new level in eternity. That's what is indicated in Genesis 1:27.

Both male and female were created in God's image... (shadow image). God created the fierce warrior, and also created the nursemaid. Both in his image. Both expressing differently towards the same situations. We are being male and female all day long. Sex? All day long? That is not the only thing that makes us male and female. The woman's heart is also the Lord's... as well as the brave soldier.

shadowimage | 24 Jan 2016, 01:28

Here's a better listing of the verse:

Notice in both Greek and Hebrew (heck even English) the image of God is *devoid* of gender. There is no gender in εἰκόνα θεοῦ / tselem elohim. What you're saying above is that tselem elohim DOES have a gender, but not just one, but both (because you're twisting the verse in an unusual way you get an unusual outcome). MALE and FEMALE were *not* created in God's image, it was the sentience. But you're putting yourself in a box by saying tselem elohim does annotate gender. Male and Female HAS NO TSELEM ELOHIM. NONE. And if tselem elohim has gender He will be debased by His own design.

In other words, God can 'bara' sentience or 'bara' a physical body, but they are not the same. That's really all there is to it. Repeating that God 'bara' male and female physical bodies does not change that tselem elohim is genderless.

How men and women respond to different situations can have a lot of biological factors influenced by hormones. You're basically saying that sentience alone is the cause for how people (typically) behave instead of biology! Wow. You should know that EMOTION is a BIOLOGICAL function, not that of the soul-- but because you demand tselem elohim to have a gender, now emotion becomes an aspect of the soul instead of biology. Doctrine broken. Twice.

Genez | 01 Feb 2016, 19:14

Why should it be given? The context explains all we should need to know. After all... How can you put gender into an image that is to include both male and female? Tell us how that can be done, please.

shadowimage | 02 Feb 2016, 04:10

So Genez, I don't understand why you're asking me to solve your own beliefs (especially when it's impossible to solve them). But let's go through it again.

Do you see the perpetual issue you're repeating? Male and female WERE NOT created in God's image. There is no male and female in tselem elohim, yet you keep on repeating this which results in the problem that you're asking me to solve (which I suppose somehow you're saying it doesn't cause that!). You can't say that God made male and female in His image *without* also saying God is male and female *as a result*. THEREFORE the ONLY proper response is that MAN is created in THE IMAGE OF GOD [INSERT LARGE SPACE HERE] male and female He created humans. Take note the male and female bit has nothing to do with the image of God-- hence the *large space*.

So my advice is to go over all of the verses I quoted and see that MALE and FEMALE *ARE NOT* created in God's image. You unfortunately have no choice but to reword the verse and cause that chaotic problem of gender being assigned to God. Let's put it this way, the angels are also created in God's image and yet they have no gender (unless you want to believe all of the angels are male somehow and it's a giant sausagefest).

Furthermore as I have already brought up-- IF THE SOUL (SENTIENCE) HAS GENDER HARD-CODED, THEN EMOTIONS ARE A PART OF THE SOUL SINCE EMOTION (BIOLOGY) IS WHAT SEPARATES the major aspects of both thinking *when in the flesh*. This is impossible since emotion is a part of the biology, yet by you saying God creating the "fierce warrior" and the "nursemaid" both emotional aspects would be hard-coded to the soul. You don't need an R.B. Thieme to tell you emotions are biological; even King James VI & I could have told you that! And what I mean by that is understanding emotions are biological is something very well-known that you don't need a complicated study for.

Genez | 05 Apr 2016, 20:52

OK... just another crank wants to post in a forum. Not wasting time with you anymore. For you, this is a catharsis. Not me. I have no need to vent my frustration by being a source of frustration for those who frustrate you. :)

"Another wonderful crank. And, its another earthly day.
Lord please, take us to a new place. Where only you.
You only.. have the say.

These cosmos cranks in this world, can only vent their spleen.
We can tell them by their lack of love. How their word's intentions
are shown only to be mean." © gz 2016

Go find some other forum to bitch in. Frustration is a horrible motivator. I do not desire cursing by association.

Was that frank enough for you? Frankly, it should be.

Genez | 05 Apr 2016, 21:01

What is this forum for? It is not much different from other forums...

Other than one major difference. That being, I presume the ones here have been under good teachings, and therefore are much more so without excuse.

In the other forums there are always the cranks and creeps ready to ambush. But, with those who have been exposed to excellent teachings? No excuse. Which just goes to show. Its volition, not the teaching, that will be the root cause of LOST REWARDS for eternity. You can have the best teachings in the world the Lord has to offer and still be a loser in the end. Closed minds... lose.

The Bereans searched the Scriptures to prove what Paul said was truth. The world's way to to attack...

*sigh* It appears another crank is on the loose. He will chase believers away from this forum. The potential for this forum will be lost if the mental viciousness of some here goes unabated.

Its not a total loss. For it makes for some more material for my comedy, multi-personality disorder shtick. I collect cranks from time and try to time and work them into my act. Its Romans 8:28 for me..

brainout | 07 Apr 2016, 16:04

So shadowimage responds to you with Bible substance, and you call him a crank, and insult this forum to boot? Because he and most of the rest of us, disagree with your anti-Biblical stance on souls being of a gender? Really? I've known you for over 10 years on the internet, and you didn't used to be this cranky. Instead, you talk like Trump tweets. You lose an argument and you pout, sulk, insult just like he does.

You didn't used to be like that. Maybe you too have #Trumpitis.

Genez | 08 Apr 2016, 01:53

We're in real trouble... Seems too many have no idea how much so. It was not Biblical substance that was cohesive. It leaps from one realm to another that really is not relevant. I saw no sense in arguing the point. I still don't.

BTW...the Colonel became cranky at times... You never make the connection. He was to establishment Churchianity what Trump is to the establishment political machine... Both offended and insulted those in the wrong. Both were working with different animals. But both were working. Don't you remember how the "establishment" bad mouthed and lied his best doctrinal teachings?

And, how the Colonel chided Christians who are always looking for a "nice Christian" president? Remember how he said he would prefer an unbeliever Hun who was establishment oriented, over some nice Christian president who is ineffectual? An "unbeliever Hun." Trump wants to put men in positions of military authority like a new Douglas MaCarther and Patton.. Two of Colonel's favorites who the establishment military mocked. If he were still young and alive today? I have a feeling RBT would be straightening out a those in his congregation who are evaluating Trump for the wrong reasons.

How quickly some forget. I haven't.

Genez | 08 Apr 2016, 02:07

😈 But, He didn't. Image is neuter in gender.

The Church will be removed from this earth. The Holy Spirit will be gone. "She"will be gone. Gender gets thrown around more than we realize. God did not create gender for solely reproduction. Just as the Holy Spirit "responds" to the Father and Son? So was a female soul created as a responder. It has nothing to do with sexuality per se. Sexuality is temporal. The natures of the souls will be everlasting.

brainout | 09 Apr 2016, 19:10

Honestly, now you compare the Colonel to Trump? When did the Colonel ever lie? Trump repeatedly and DAILY lies, and the proof against him is so overwhelming, it's a Twitter hashtag, #TrumpLie and #TrumpLies and #TrumpLiesMatter !

Bye, Gene. You're free to post here, but whatever you hallucinate hearing in Bible class, is in a carnal state. Surely.

Genez | 09 Apr 2016, 19:26

I told you how.

You have chosen to ignore. In turn you turn me into a liar like the media does to Trump. The Colonel said he would rather have a Hun who is pro establishment than a Christian like we see running for office. You have forgotten. Trump might as well be that Hun. You missed that point the Colonel was making. And, while we are at it. Name one running candidate who has not said anything that can not be construed for a lie? The media is working overtime on the front runner. Try doing a Google on R.B. Thieme. He was said to be a horrible heretic and liar.

One man is doing in the secular world what the other did to the world of churchianity. Both were hated for exposing the lies and weaknesses of the "tradition-establishment." Both are lied about. Just ask Truthtesty. Ask those who wrote papers on the heresies of R.B. Thieme. Go ahead. Think with the critics if you want because Trump hurt your feelings...

brainout | 09 Apr 2016, 20:15

Trump didn't hurt my feelings. YOU are under demon influence. Trump is backed by Dominionists, and Dominionism is the antithesis of everything Thieme taught. NO WONDER you can't tell the difference.

Dominionism backing Trump: Seven Mountains Cruz Trump Anointed

Dominionism is POLITICAL CHURCHINANITY a demon doctrine the Colonel taught against for 50 years, see how Cruz is tied up in it too, Cruz And His Seven Mountain Dominionism Is Not In My Bible….Is it in yours?

But you won't see. You love being snowed. I won't post to you again.

Genez | 09 Apr 2016, 23:23

🤔

In contrast to Trump, whom Dominionists wish to lay claim to? Cruz is a Dominionist.

😱Ted Cruz’s campaign is fueled by a dominionist vision for America (COMMENTARY) ❔

brainout | 10 Apr 2016, 07:30

TO OTHERS: this is what happens with Trump supporters. They never read what you provide as clear proof (i.e., YOUTUBE VIDEOS of Dominionist key leaders backing Trump and even being with him, on his team, the backer making the video, not an anti-Trump rag) -- and then claim you didn't prove anything. This is why I stop talking to them, and block them in Twitter.

You can't talk to such people. They're deaf.

shadow image | 03 Oct 2015, 08:01

Saw this odd video of a gal claiming the rapture is about to happen soon, and is starting to claim random world events as key points as found in Revelation *sigh*:

Here are some paraphrased snippets:

Nope. There's really no excuse for someone who simply wants the thrill of conspiracies and excitement to claim such a thing. NO one knows when the rapture will happen. Based upon what events surround it when it happens and how God operates time, it won't be happening any time soon:

Nope. It's solar, but not by a sighting of a moon.

What?! And then she extrapolates further on this saying things that Obama has done are leading up further towards the Rapture. I'm sorry, but Obama has nothing to do with the book of Revelation, and if you think so you don't have enough bible doctrine to parse why the rapture is not going to happen 'now'.

Just thought I'd post this up as a public statement so in a handful of years down the road, they'll disprove themselves by time itself. Anyone remember the 12/12/12 hype? I remember in 2006 some Christians claiming the rapture was happening in 2012, it hasn't. And they (hopefully) abandoned that poisonous thinking.

I couldn't watch the whole video since I lost interested after hearing the first bits.

brainout | 03 Oct 2015, 09:18

LOL you state the case well, as usual. BTW, try using the 'glow' in the Full Editor if you ever want to highlight Hebrew. Be sure to also specify a font color for the text, as the 'glow' default is light, so in some skins won't play well. But it does work. You can also use the highlight (or hilight, my own BBCode which preceded the Editor upgrade). Shouldn't matter that the Hebrew is left to right, just paint it and then click on the code.

Anonynomenon | 03 Oct 2015, 17:56

Not disagreeing with your conclusion, but Mark 13:32 (just like the famous Matt 24:36) is specifically about the Second Advent aka Day of the Lord. Why would no man know the day or hour of the Second Advent? Look at Matt 24:22. The Tribulation will be cut short for the sake of the elect. Now, between Daniel and Revelation, the Tribulation is pretty well mapped out for us, so it's likely that it will be shortened by a matter of hours.

To further confirm that Christ was talking about the Second Advent and not the Rapture, Matt 24:37 says those days will be as in the days of Noah. What happened in Noah's day? Noah was alerted to begin loading the Ark 7 days before the Flood was to occur. By the end of the 7 days, he was comfortably resting in the Ark while the rest of the unsuspecting world gets washed away.

The 7 day preparation period for loading the Ark correlates to the 70th Week. After the Rapture, the Elect will have 7 years to prepare themselves for the return of Christ. They prepare by believing in Christ, learning Doctrine and heeding the Signs. The rest of the unsuspecting world will be burned away in a fiery Flood.

This is just how I understand it. Maybe I'm wrong, but Matt 24:37 is directly connected to verses 40 and 41. The people who are taken while working in the field and grinding at the mill are not believers and they certainly aren't going to heaven. At least, that's what my pastor taught me.

brainout | 03 Oct 2015, 20:05

Once the Rapture has occurred, then the 7 years is countable. Until Rapture happens, you can't know when it ends. That's the point. The Lord is warning them they won't know, because He foreknows He will be rejected, so the old timetable will be missed, and Church will be inserted. For He told them all that too, back in Matthew 16:18, I will build the Church upon Myself, epi tautei tei petrai.

Hebrews 11:39-40 ties in. The Lord was talking before Church existed. So when He was talking, there was still a chance the old timetable would play out. Paul and the other writers of the NT were all still using the old timetable to count to the Millennium, too. For the old timetable was, that the Trib would begin 4200 from Adam's Fall, minus 7 years, just as Daniel had calculated and the Lord through Gabriel confirmed.

That's the duality. Pre-Church, the entire timeline was laid out, like a series of 'appointments' (Hebrew keyword l'moedth). Church had to be inserted because the appointments were missed. So how long Church, was not given. After Church, 7 years remained.

The above is just a summary of the extensive backup in the vimeo videos, which I presume you know of already. Those videos show how and where in Bible, this timeline is used and tracked, in every book of the OT and NT (well, at least the first chapter, and I've not documented ALL the 1st chapters of the OT on video, yet).

Of course, the above can and will always be, debated. But the numbers bear it out, assuming I counted the syllables correctly. That's a forensic thing anyone can objectively check or dispute.

Anonynomenon | 03 Oct 2015, 21:10

I dont think the Lord was commenting on whether or not the Church would be inserted, or how long that would take during the Olivet Discourse. From the context of the discussion taking place, the "imminency statement" was made in reference to the Second Advent. Those waiting at the end of the Tribulation are told to watch for the specific signs: Red moon, black sun, then total darkness. These are the signs of our Lord's return. The point is that no one will know what time of day it will happen. Morning, evening, midnight? But it will be somewhere between day 364 and 365 of the 7th Tribulation year.

Like I said, I'm not here to disagree with the imminent rapture doctrine, or to lend creedence to any false prophets. I simply think its a stretch to assume that the Lord was talking about anything else other than His return at the Second Advent.

If we are to insist that the Rapture is imminent, then we must look elsewhere in scripture...that is, in my fallible opinion of course.

brainout | 03 Oct 2015, 21:47

Well, Anonynomemon, Matthew 24 is metered. So yeah it is a timeline. First and Second Advents and the Tribulation itself, are all originally and still Jewish; were all timed. And, tracked for that reason. As a calendar. As appointments. Jews knew that then and today's Jewish calendar is unfortunately a garbled version of that tracking, which you can Google to learn about: the Seder Olam Rabbah. Somewhere along the line, the Jews forgot how to tell what time it was, at least by the time of Josephus, who uses the errant SOR for his day. There was a competing Book of Jubilees which was also really bad, but popular. Of course, I'm assuming you know the Zohar was invented about 1200 years later.

The Bible timelines were done like a prophecy GPS. Countdown to Millennium, to Messiah, to the end of the 2100 years allotted to the Jews, and make up for the fact that 2100 years started 54 years early, so that 54 of 2100 years were still owed to Gentiles. So the meter is always accounting the time. So Matthew 24 is designed to show how God will make up and keep the Time. That's why Daniel 9 was metered, to account for Israel's past and future time, and that's why the Lord uses meter here, to show how the promise (=seven), would be kept.

That meter will be covered in future vids (not necessarily my own), still trying to understand what pattern the Lord is using. I'm not the one working on that meter. I used to be the only one who understood it, but the FACT of the meter has been out for seven years now -- I first learned it by mistake in Isaiah in 2008, full playlist is in Youtube, smaller playlist in vimeo -- and others are working on it now too. Whether they agree with my interp or not, I don't know. All I know is that the fact of the meter's existence, is proven well enough to spend more time on it; others are metering other passages, testing them. Matthew 24 is one of those.

For Trib's Start was a known date, pre Church. He was scheduled to die 57 years before the Mill. 7 for Trib, last 7. 50 for Jubilee time to harvest the gentiles, based on the 1050 which is the basic civilization unit for time, the last 50 being reserved for intensive evangelism, a trend of history.

So:

1. He was supposed to die at age 40, and everyone was tracking that since Moses in Genesis 1 and Psalm 90. Talmud Sanhedrin 98-99 still mentioned it, since of course they don't acknowledge Christ as Messiah, post His Death.


• So now look at Daniel 9 again: if enough Israel had accepted Him as Messiah, then there would have been a civil war with the Sanhedrin, who weren't accepting Him in any case -- so then He would have been crucified anyway, and the Temple destroyed. So the 62nd week was supposed to end that way:
• He's crucified, end 62nd week;
• Then, 50 years culminating in the destruction of the Temple, the hiatus in the grammar of Dan 9:26 compared to 27 (the 50 is Gentile time, so is not part of Promise Time to the Jews, so is not part of the 490).
• Then the Trib, as an outcome of the 50 years ending with the destruction of the Temple, so that Daniel 11:35ff now fits in, whoever the Jewish ruler then was gonna make a pact with Rome, to vanquish his other local enemies. (Or something similar. I'm still working out the details. Temple does not have to be standing for the Daniel 9:27 sacrifices to be made, so when does it go down? Just after Messiah dies, sometime after that, or at Trib mid-point? For sacrifices stopping is the key to Dan9:27: but sacrifices were made post-Moses and pre Temple completion, while travelling or on the site where building was to begin, see Ezra 3 and before that, Joshua, Judges, Samuel.)
• But instead, He dies in the 61st week, at the hand of the Sanhedrin appealing to Rome, with not enough accepting Him as Messiah so now Time is In Breach. The Temple the Temple Depicted down, so now the Temple Depicting goes down too. So John will be writing 7 years after the Temple goes down (in his own meter, his gospel; replace the 'htm' with pdf for readable Greek).


2. For He had to be born 97 years before the Millennium, but originally it was to be 94 years, since Abraham supermatured 54 years prior to the expiry of Gentile Time (2100 years post-Adam's fall). That, because Noah's 490-year time grant ran out, and Abraham HAD to mature by then. Else Time would have ended. All this is obvious from the begats in Gen 5, 7, 11, 15, 17 if you crunch the math.


3. But the Temple started 3.5 years late, 1Kings 6:1; was supposed to start as soon as David died, 2Sam7:12. So now 53.5 (rounded to 54 in the meters, as you cannot split a syllable) gets elongated to 57 (which in the meter is 56, the most common meter in the Bible -- with Daniel pregnantly using 58 to show missed appointment due to Manasseh). So that's why God uses 57 and 54 meters in His Reply to Daniel in 9:24-27 (excessively long video on that, here). Clever, 54 is a Trinity meter (3x3x6). Paul plays on this, but that's another discussion of great length already covered in Ephesians1REPARSED, search on 231. Mary played on it first, deducting the 14 from God's 231 in her meter, so I guess that's why Paul plays on it to tag Mary and Daniel at the same time. (PDF copy of REPARSED has readable Greek, click here.)


4. So to make up for that, Messiah has to be born 3.5 years earlier, so instead of dying 54 years prior to 4200 from Adam's fall, he has to die 57 years prior, which is the 1000th anniversary of David's death. But Israel rejected Him, so He actually dies 64 years prior, hence the extra 7 was as originally told Daniel, spent on taking down the Temple -- but the original seven years for the Trib, remained. Hence Church had to be inserted, and rapture is unpredictable.

So the point is, the entire timeline of when the Trib was supposed to begin and end pre-Church, was known, and watched. The 'Seder Olam Rabbah' is all garbled now, but it was a calendar some ancient Jew(s) created to keep track of this timeline. I can't tell when it became garbled, only that by the time Josephus wrote, it was.

• One of many gaps in the accounting, is to account for when the SOR went bad, to find its initial or earliest version, which predates Messiah's birth. For if we can find that, hopefully there will be collateral text to show they knew the meter, too. That's my big concern, trying to find extra-Biblical material showing that the meter was known. It's obvious in Bible, but outside of Bible, where is there text showing it was used? One can argue it's not needed, since the Bible is proof enough. But still, how they used the meter would be invaluable.

Doesn't invalidate your statement, but does elaborate on the duality of KNOWN DATE versus due to Israel's rejection and Church's insertion, UNKNOWN Date. Matthew 24 takes both into account.

And of course, the above is subject to dispute, but so far I can't find any contradictions or true discrepancies. The problems are more like multiple answers for the same numbers (i.e., WHICH extra 7 or 3.5 starting WHEN, as there are several going all the way back to Jacob at Haran).

Anonynomenon | 04 Oct 2015, 03:01

@ Brainout

To your knowledge, how many other people are working on this 'meter'? Is it a joint effort? Will there be a joint disclosure in the near future? That would be thrilling.

To be "frank", I just don't see the "imminency doctrine" when it comes to the Rapture. Contrary to countless interpretations, I just don't see it taught in the Bible consistently. The Bible utilizes constant repetition to communicate knowledge. I just don't see that level of repetition in repect to the "imminent Rapture"...that is once you accurately and isagogically categorize Matthew 24:36 within its own context.

One way or another, why would it even matter?
If one person knew over another, what would be changed?

For a person in your position, (one who can observe this prophetic meter), you never know if you could be sitting on the answer (or the means to find the answer) this whole time. Or maybe not, but the possibility can not be ruled out until the Biblical position is firmly established. At this point, Matt 24:36 and Mark 13:32 does not up hold any form of Rapture doctrine, whether imminent or not.

Not trying to be "THAT GUY" here, but someone's got to ask the annoying questions, 😀

brainout | 04 Oct 2015, 05:07

Sorry my reply posts are almost always long, but your questions require comprehensive answers. Your questions are never annoying, and even if they were, ask. Challenge. Dispute. Insult. That's the purpose of FrankForum, so we don't have to walk on eggshells with each other. Honesty is refreshing, as is verbal fencing or making nice. Meaning it, either way. Not, hypocrisy.

As to how many others are working on this, I don't know. I'm guessing about 12, maybe more. For every 100 who listen, watch my videos or read my webpages, I'll get one emailer. So over the last few years maybe 12+ people have offered ideas on the meter or asked questions, and I don't know who they are. A few send me samples of the metering they've done, and that's how I know about Matthew 24. It was on my to do list, but I haven't parsed it myself yet.

As far as 'imminency', that's another question altogether. Bible does use a keyterm you could conclude as 'imminent', Greek Rapture tachu, which in Mark is engus and chiefly (42 times!) euthus. Videos on the Markan usage begin here. Again, those are Rapture keyterms pan NT. You'll see that if you just search on them and read the context. See also Hebrews 11:39-40, which is the legal criterion for the Rapture, we have to complete first, for Israel's time to resume.

These terms really mean 'next in sequence' without predictability as to when it will come. So the idea of imminency comes from the fact you don't know when. Someone's coming to visit, you can't say when, you can only say it will happen. So, connotation of military surprise attack (tachu), or mere next-ness with no predictable intervening event (engus), happening straightaway next (euthus). A thing that is 'next' with nothing intervening has no implication of nearness in time, but rather nextness alone.

Well, that's apt because Israel's time went on hold, the criterion for the Rapture is bodies developed Per Father's Discretion (John 17, Eph 4:12-13), not how long. Opposite of the covenantal time formula for Israel, which had been fixed. In fact, because fixed the 7 years is overhanging. So what was supposed to be 50 years has become groundhog day, which I guess accounts for why Paul's meter is 434 (like Daniel's) in his meter about the history of Church trends. Which videos are incredibly accurately satirical, ending at Odovocer (when the latter got his prophecy he'd be great).

• I mean for crying out loud, he plays the game on how Augustus (father of Rome, get it) -- was deified, timing the syllables 'kuriou' to end in the year of Augustus' DEATH! (Eulogetos ho theos kai pater tou kuriou hemon Iesou Christou).

The Bible words used are so biting, Paul chooses to place an eta in thelematos for each of three Emperor's deaths whose successors undid what the predecessors accomplished. THAT kind of satire.

You get it, right? Greek thelematos means 'Will, Desire, Pleasure'. Every dying emperor has such a will, parallel to Hebrews 9-11, which hadn't been written yet but is written to play on the Ephesians meter. So notice: Emperor dies, has Will, new Emperor designated, undoes Will of the Prior. So the point is, that man's will is not done, but God's. Very biting.

The dying emperors were Trajan, Macrinus, Diocletian. Hadrian undid all of Trajan's territorial gains, the 2nd group of Severans took over from usurping Macrinus who had killed Caracalla son of Severus, and Constantine undid the dream of Diocletian.

Shocking stuff. Not believable until you go through it yourself. And then, even after you do. Every day I just shake my head. That's been going on five years, now.

So now, back to Mark 13 and Matt24. As you'll see in those videos above for Mark, he suddenly stops using euthus. He quotes Matthew 24:32 in Mark 13:28, using engus, which is a spatial term, and the actual words connote season. When a season (dispensation) ends. Summer always follows spring, was always associated with harvesting, and particularly harvesting the Gentiles: but how long does 'summer' last? Now go back and look at Mark 11:3-13, another fig tree. That was the last time he used euthus. Of course, Mark is writing in the Year of the Four Emperors and Israel is already surrounded with troops, just as Jesus had warned in Matthew 24:32 (in context).

• See the tie? No engus nor euthus, but already imminent, as at any time suddenly those troops might storm the city. Titus had been trying to negotiate a settlement, but the Jews inside were in civil war with each other. Surely you know the story. So Mark is telling you how to use Matthew's text and commenting on imminency. By means of leaving out his own common keyword at the very time he writes, since Matthew 24 was operational at the time he writes. So much for all those who claim Mark wrote the first gospel!

So now why is imminency so important? You wonder if it makes a difference. Well, yeah. Your death is imminent. But you don't think about that, until and unless you're sick, or you had a near brush with death, or someone close to you experiences those things.

Seriously: for all of us, death is the 'next' thing to happen. Alive, then dead. But we are used to thinking as Israel did, that it will be a long time away, which in their case was usually true: and look what happened. They stopped caring. As far as they were concerned, His Arrival though timed from Genesis through Malachi to the very DAY (Haggai 2, Chanukah birth prophesied) -- all that, was sudden to them, as they long since messed up or ignored their 'appointments'.

• So, we have none. Can be today, before I finish typing. 1000 years from now. And all that garbage on TBN about predicting when the Rapture will happen (theme of the OP), well.. those people aren't even paying attention to imminency, either. So look how wasted are their spiritual lives, always drooling over historical events, which is as anti-Biblical as you can get.

Then you have the preterists. They deny the Rapture. Or, the mid-Trib people, who think (how, I can't fathom) that Rapture is mid-Trib, or end of Trib, or some other nonsense. So they just ignore it all. Not good. Imminency means you can get caught flat-footed, like the foolish virgins, always mistaking the spiritual life for hail fellow well met, rather than learning and living on Bible under your right teacher, whoever HE (never a 'she').. is.

So yeah, it matters to get this doctrine right. You can die today. Rapture can happen today. What if it does? Would you live differently? If so, then live that way.. now (another keyword for Church age in Bible, is 'now'). For Rapture, is 'next'. Next prophetical event to happen, nothing in between, no historical event preceding is predicted.

• Folks who obsess over when, never grow up. For they don't recognize what imminent, means. Folks who disbelieve or incorrectly time Rapture, also never grow up. And these all are en retard, by the millions. And because the numbers misled are so high, they mistake that consensus for truth. Consensus is never truth. At best, consensus might be a way to discover truth. Sadly, history proves every time that whatever man largely dotes on, tends to be wrong. We dote on religion. We dote on the banal. We dote on making ourselves feel good about ourselves, and we dote on consensus.

So yeah it matters. And Bible makes a stink about imminency in every NT book. We just aren't doing our homework well enough to see all the vocabulary it uses to flesh out the doctrine. So we Dispies are the worst among the scholars, not well handling a doctrine we sorta know!

Anonynomenon | 19 Nov 2015, 02:47

I wonder if Matt 24:36 is referring to Zech 14:7?

brainout | 19 Nov 2015, 05:52

No, Matt 24:36 is a Rapture verse, which is explained in John 17:20 ff. No one knows but the Father, because it's up to Father when the Body is complete, to answer Christ's prayer. But that prayer is that FATHER DETERMINE the Bride's composition. Hence Eph 4:12-13 is the criterion for the Rapture, contingent and therefore imminent.

eirene | 19 May 2017, 00:04

OK so I am going to put this out here and maybe you all may think I am crazy but many people think that the Revelation 12 sign is to happen in the constellation of Virgo this September.

If anyone would like to check out this theory I would be glad to hear your feedback. They say this sign in the heavens will never happen again. There is a video series by Pastor John Abent (JNBAP on Youtube) and Scotty Clark also has many videos about the Rev. 12 sign.

Pastor Abent comments that when the UN made their resolution against Israel on 12/23 last year, it was significant and signalled we were beginning the Birth Pangs. Also, does anyone find it significant that our Pres. is going to Israel during Pentecost and has promised that he will bring about a peace agreement? His son in law Jared has an office at 666 Fifth Ave. and has come out of seemingly nowhere. Finally there is this blog called Daily Crow which notes current events and there numerical relations to Biblical Prophecy. There are so many "coincidences" that they cannot be coincidences.

OK I am rambling here but I think we are in such critical times. I know that if nothing happens this Sept. I will continue to believe but it sure seems like we are close to the end. One last point, if technology keeps advancing the way it is, we are going to reach a point of singularity and I don't think God will have that. Thoughts? Please pardon my ignorance in asking all these questions. I am still just trying to keep in the Word every day by reading and listening to teachings. Right now am away from my home church, living with my elderly Mom out in the country.

brainout | 19 May 2017, 00:21

Go read Deuteronomy 18, then Acts 1, and ask yourself if God would make a SIGN of Rapture using the stars when He outlawed folks using the stars in the OT, and Jesus said there would BE no sign, to the apostles.

Then look at Matt2 and ask how it is that the magi reported seeing a star but Jerusalem didn't see it, and how could a real star (rather than an angel, since angels are called 'stars of God' in Job) -- how could a real star act like a Mitch Miller bouncing ball above the oikon (big house, in Greek of Matt2) where Jesus then was, his parents just having taken him home from his bris at the Temple?

Then you'll have a good answer to your question straight from God. Use 1Jn1:9 as you read those Scriptures, see for yourself.

eirene | 19 May 2017, 01:23

I will check these verses out. But what do you do with the verse of Rev. 12:1. What does it mean if not in the stars? When I look up the Greek word for "wonder" it is:

σημεῖον sēmeîon, say-mi'-on; neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4591; an indication, especially ceremonially or supernaturally:—miracle, sign, token, wonder.

and in Rev. 12: 5 the word for the taking up of the woman's child (not the Man Child)

thank you for your encouragement to look up those verses, but I don't know how to explain Rev. 12:1

Anonynomenon | 19 May 2017, 01:58

@ Eirene

Look for your answers to Revelation in the Old Testament, especially for Rev 12:1. It is a reference to the Jews, not the Church, so the rapture really wouldn't be applicable there.

Rev 4:1 is the only rapture disclosure I can think of in the entire book of Revelation, but it doesn't attach it to any historical or astronomical events.

As you continue to grow spiritually, you're going to run into a lot of "coincidences" they are often orchestrated by the demonic network to distract us. Just focus on the Word and you can avoid a lot of trouble. Its more important to understand WHY the rapture will take place than WHEN. You will find that the New Testament has a lot to say about WHY it will happen, and very little to say about WHEN. I know from experience that trying to figure out when is not worth it. You'll find an endless set of "coincidences", but in the end, it won't mean anything.

There is a reason why we should be sanctified from the world. Its because the world-system, with its coincidences, is a web of chaos.

brainout | 03 Jun 2017, 12:26

The tie between Rapture and millenniarianism which is pan-culture continues to be a political topic. The Muslims await the Mahdi, the Buddhists the Matreya, the Russians the Last Emperor (Putin right now playing on that), the Jews and Christians, Messiah (tho differently defined in each of their subgroups). Then the Mayan thingy, can't remember the other cultures which have a thing about turns in millennia defined by their own counting systems.