Localized source from the original threads located on the DepartOut forum, which is shut down: https://departout.com/viewtopic.php?p=28756#28756, http://departout.com/viewtopic.php?p=28247#28247, http://departout.com/viewtopic.php?p=27643#27643, http://departout.com/viewtopic.php?p=27610#27610.

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brainout | Sun May 29, 2011 11:24 pm

This thread is dedicated to accounting for and cataloguing timeline errors which gave rise to Mr. Camping's current embarrassment. For what happened to him, could easily happen to us, in other ways. At West Point you must study the blunders of famous people, so as not to repeat, their mistakes.

For we all will face Our Lord Jesus the Christ at the Judgment Seat aka Bema. In Philippians 3:18-19, 1Cor3, Paul warns what that will be like. After that, 1Cor15 and Rev 21:4, Jude 24. We will be happy, surely; yet we will also forever know, where we screwed up. Truth is full-spectrum. Then, we will know, 1Cor13's end, Jeremiah 31:31-34 (basis for the New Covenant theme of book of Hebrews).

In all events, embarrassment comes from misusing Bible. The sooner we see another's errors, the sooner we see our own. Hopefully, much future embarrassment, will thus be avoided. Hence this thread.

Camping's root error is that he doesn't know what 'Church Age' or 'Church' means. This error is inexcusable, in light of the tons of information in Bible, and very competent scholarship about it, for well over 2000 years, and especially, since the 1800's. Bible says 'Church' is the 'Body of Christ' (refrain, just look up 'body' in your NT).

So Church HAS NO TIMELINE CHARACTERISTIC associated with it. So, the Rapture cannot be dated. We have a separate covenant through Christ's 'kata Melchizedek' PRE-Israel Battlefield Royalty, theme of the Book of Hebrews.

God will use that separate covenant to 'join' Time back to Israel, theme of Ephesians and also the Book of Hebrews.

Scholars have understood and taught this for at least 150 years, correcting Covenantal theology. Of course, some major sects in Christianity still insist on removing from Israel what God promised to her. Paul warned about that, back in Romans 11.

Ergo, our biggest embarrassment, today: we desperately want to know What Bible Means; but we feel we don't get answers, from our teachers. Instead, we feel ashamed or afraid to ask questions, to voice doubts; we are too often given the rah-rah, the brush off, the cold shoulder or the pious expression.

So, eventually we turn inward or away, become hostile.. or call into a radio show that offers a comforting voice, which seems to have real answers. On our terms. Catering to, our prejudices. Ephesians 4:14, fertile and replicating.

That voice for 50 years now, has often been Harold Camping's. He is not alone. Each generation of Church believers has been afflicted with its many, dulcet hawkers, since the Cross. That sad story is well told in Acts, Romans, Galatians, Corinthians, 1-3 John, Jude, Peter. Every book of the NT has something to say about the false teachers who slip into the flock, lead them astray.

Here's why Campings happen. WE WANT TO TRUST THE BIBLE. At the same time, we won't learn it. We humans are like children. We want something we can hold our hands. So the Bible is precious to us, in a child-like way. We want it to be trustworthy. For we don't understand it and thus feel awkward. We want someone to make it SIMPLE. For, we are simple.

So, we need it explained. Matthew 4:4 isn't hyperbole! Can't live on, words we don't understand! The question is, how much of that explanation, will we HEAR?

Answer? Not much! That's why we buy into false teachers, Eph 4:14. They seem to offer a SIMPLE explanation which comforts our childish notions. Being children, we feel THREATENED when the more-adult TRUTH, confronts us.

Example: people in the King-James-Only movement are SCARED that the Bibles they hold, might have inaccurate WORDS in them. So to cover up their baseless fear -- baseless, for it's easy to read past KJV errors -- to cover up their baseless fear, they THUMP THUMP THUMP KJV KJV KJV. Its age is comforting to them; so too, its fuzziness. You can make it mean whatever you want. 😀

So when a Camping with a much-beloved voice proves to be wrong, it hurts more than normally. The pulpits will now criticize him as they must, and even rightly -- but where is the alternative answer, to fill the void? Why wasn't Bible taught well and before, so people could spot his mangling of Scripture? Why must a disaster like the fake May 21, occur?

➡️ THE SHEEP AREN'T GETTING FED. ⚠️

Granted, the sheep are pretty smelly. They want cash and flash, 'DO, Lord!' and foot-stomping. Having no real BIBLE information to sustain them, they resort to emotion. It backfires. Into the void rushes anger, guilt, anxiety, so the need for emotional relief, intensifies. The rollercoaster crashes to a halt, and they deaden.

So a pastor faces a sea of blank faces, each with an attention span of 30 seconds. Who can teach such cows? Sigh.

So the pat phrase, 'there, there', counselling, rah-rah and other self-help books, or a deadly salting of UFOs, conspiracy theories, 'the end times, brother!' formulate a teaching matrix trapping many a pastor. He too, deadens.

'For the time will come, when they will not endure, sound doctrine', Paul warned Timothy. Thus we have today's disaster. It can become an opportunity to finally provide REAL BIBLE TEACHING.

So Camping's embarrassment.. reveals Christendom's.

Bear all that in mind, as you read this thread?

This thread will list specific Bible verses and demonstrate how Camping misread them, to derive his erroneous timeline. That way, if anyone brings any of this information to his attention (or to his followers), profit can be had.

Often, the mistakes he makes are categorical, i.e., using NON-Bible ASSumptions to derive Earth's age; like reversing the meaning of Hebrew 'yalad' and what he titles, 'qara shem'. So where categorical errors are made, the rebuttal will also be categorical.

He makes many errors, so to save space and time, only the mission-critical errors will be referenced here. Example: since he's wrong about how he interprets 'yalad', his entire timeline is toast. So the other reasons why his timeline is wrong, don't much matter.

Y'all make whatever additions you want. If you know of an old post which is relevant, would you also link it here? The objective is to have a central location for specific Bible rebuttals.

As for mine, each post will have a Subject header that is specific to a verse or category he uses. The objective is to enable a Camping follower to properly vet the Bible, in contrast to what Camping says about it. God thus will do the convincing, not us; and, that's how it should be.

1John1:9 regularly breathed, enables spiritual comprehension. (See also Psalm 32:5, and 66:18 in context.) The OT people had to bring animals, which were a 'figure' of Christ To Come. He has come now, Heb10:1-14, so we merely ADMIT when we sinned; we don't need the extra step of an animal, and we are each priests to God, 1Pet2:9. So we have this office.

If 1John1:9 is not used, the person remains in the dark, per 1John1:6, 8, 10. We must privately acknowledge we sinned to God (i.e., 'Dad, I sinned' when one doesn't remember). Else we are not filled with the Spirit, and thus cannot properly read Bible.

That's Camping's problem here, as the posts I hope will show.

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brainout | Mon May 30, 2011 1:40 am

EDIT: This post is downloadable as a Word Doc, here: CampingTimelineGaffes1.doc

Sorry this post has to be so long. 😳 It's just not fair to criticize someone, without providing ample substance. Else one can't profit from it.

And I must be blunt. Like Camping, I do numbers for a living. My clients come to me looking for a specific DEDUCTION; it's my job to justify it. So notice: FIRST I get the NUMBER from them, THEN I back into how (if legal) it can be DEDUCTED. So I know what Camping's done. HE BACKED INTO his 'proofs', then claims they are from God!

Look:
😕 He fails in 1988, so has to invent '23' to get to 2011.
😕 He fails again in 1994, so has to invent '17' to get to 2011.
😕 His Adam-When calendar is completely bogus (see my 'Chicanery' post, green text, 5th in this thread); resulting, in a wrong date for the Flood. So he has to MANUFACTURE a start and end point in 2011 to make the old material, look right. That results in his bogus 722,500 days, and his laughable misuse of Daniel 8's 2300 days.

😕 Topping it off, he uses the modern Jewish Calendar to pick his 2011 date. As a result, all the previous number manipulations, are exposed.

Heh: he's not good at hiding his manipulation of numbers. What's really sad, is that people obviously supporting him didn't CHECK THE BIBLE against what he claimed, i.e., Daniel 8:14 says 'evenings and mornings', so it means LITERAL DAYS, never ever can mean anything else. Same construction as in Genesis 1.

This same no-homework among the sheeple is why King-James-Onlyism, SDA, JW, Mormonism, and all the other many apostate sects, are popular. People thump the Bible but don't really want to learn it!

SO IF YOU REJECT TESTING WITH BIBLE, YOUR FAITH IN SOMETHING (SOMEONE) ELSE WILL BE REJECTED, TOO, Philippians 3:18-19, 2Tim2:26-3:7, 4:3, Ephesians 4:14; Heb11:6, being refused. Lots of people hurting, now. Because they didn't want to do their Bible homework.

So this post will show how Camping gets caught in his above gaffes.. by God in BIBLE. Which you yourself, can proof yourself. Just use 1John1:9, and work through what follows...

For Camping to date the Rapture at all, is wrong. For Camping to date the Rapture using a mis-matched calendar, is even more wrong. You don't mix apples and oranges.

Frankly, every one of his dates is wrong. It's embarrassing, all the more because good scholarship on Bible dates does exist. That good scholarship was mainstream, back in the 1950's. We all KNEW Exodus was 1440BC, that David became king of all Israel circa 1004 or 1000BC, Solomon in 970BC, that Isaiah taught starting about 754BC, etc.

The only argument was over how to fix the 4-year DELETION made by the RCC when they came up with their BC/AD dates. Because, you can't just add 3 years to AD, and get the right timeline balancing to all the BC dates. So, the good scholars finally reached a consensus to say Christ was born in 4BC.

Of course, since then the Bible is debated on every little point, so the alleged dates are all over the map, today. But in Camping's day, he had access to good dates. He clearly rejected them.

Had Camping actually followed the Bible's chronology from Adam forward, instead of inserting his own ideas, he'd have seen a convergence pattern far more elegant and Divine than what he derived. For God really does Orchestrate Time.

God's Word divulges a distinct numerical pattern with factors of 7, 5, 3, and 2: He uses these to tell you What Time It Is. First He TELLS you the time, whether past or future; then, if future, He brings it to PASS exactly as predicted.

• Genesis 15:13, He tells Abraham that his yet-to-be-born sons will be enslaved for 400 years. And, they are: 10 years for Joseph, plus 390 years for all Jacob's sons. So, in the fourth generation after that slavery began, they come out, just as foretold, in 1440BC, having entered in 1870BC -- 430 years, to the day Jacob entered the Land, Exodus 12:40-41.
• Christ dies on the 1470th anniversary of that exit, sarcastically explained by John in his Gospel's Greek (John 19), since the Real Passover was the day He died, not the day the Jews then had scheduled.

Many more examples like these, from Adam forward. Here's a brief recap of them: viewtopic.php?p=28247#28247. A much more comprehensive, see-how-God's-Time-numbers-balance, is here: brainoutFAQ.htm#6a. All that information is from the Bible, and you can vet it. Just grab a Bible and a calculator.

The point? God orchestrates Time, tells you WHEN in advance, and then brings it to pass. So you know that He is God.

This pattern is communicated in many ways, for the Coming of Messiah was a TIMED PROMISE since Adam's Fall. Therefore, the 'job' is to find out HOW Bible tells you the numerical pattern, at which point you'll see God's Promise and Real Time converge so strikingly and at so many levels, you'll know This is The Word Of Real God.

Of course, to communicate this information cogently, much detail must be provided and analyzed. The sloppy reader will make mistakes, so when deriving the BIBLE's timeline, will run into 'contradictions'. Those 'contradictions' reflect the reader's own errors, so he is alerted to audit again.

For GOD's timeline, is self-auditing. So disputes and errors only come from sloppy Bible reading.

So the one who won't use God's Word PROPERLY to find the dates, will miss the pattern, end up confused. Or, worse: will blame God for keeping one's spiritual eyes, closed.

That's what Camping does. Frankly, that's what many so-called 'scholars' do, too; they deem Bible 'inscrutable' or 'we can't know'; when in fact, they won't crunch the numbers ONLY in BIBLE. Instead, like Camping they seek shortcuts and make estimates from dating schema OUTSIDE Bible, like Roman AUC, astrology, astronomy, archeology. Anything but Bible, is deemed more reliable.

So Camping is just one of a string of misreaders, since the Hasmoneans. That's when people stopped consulting Bible's dates, and instead came up with their own. That's why they didn't believe the Lord came On Time. And why, they still don't.

Thus the Family of God has remained in the dark and the Bible of course ends up looking false. So it's little wonder, then, that believers want some date to actually come to pass, since they don't realize EVERY DATE since Adam forward was PREDICTED and came to pass EXACTLY AS PREDICTED.

But you won't know that, if you don't use the Bible. If you don't pay close attention to HOW the Bible phrases its dates. If you don't pay close attention to WHY God chooses that phrasing. Camping didn't pay attention. So, here's how he went wrong...

Camping used the MODERN LUNAR Judaic Calendar to claim its 17 Iyyar was the '17th day of the second month' in Genesis 7:11. Then he claimed that date as the world's end.

All Camping's calculations, are ARBITRARY. First, he CHOSE that date, based on misreading Matthew 24:37. Then he BACKED INTO his magical 'proofs'. Then he claims the numbers are from God and Biblical. Wowing people with Bible numbers is the frequent tactic of the false teacher. Its source is in pagan sacred numerology and geometry, the idea of numbers fitting together having a sacred, secret meaning knowable only to a few. So those few, will feel special. 😀

• Camping's hermeneutic is dead wrong, because (inter alia) Matt24:37 is about the Second Advent, not the Rapture.
• Moreover, at the 2nd Advent, the world doesn't end. Rather, it's the Millennium, and the world will go on living for another 1050 years, ending (and beginning anew) in Revelation 21:1.
• 'Son of Man' title is exclusive to Israel, not a Head-of-Church Title, so the 'Coming of the Son of Man' means the 2nd Advent (Daniel 7:13ff prophecy), NOT the Rapture. He has other Titles as Head of Church, like King of Kings, etc.
• The 2nd Advent is literal, real, and the Lord PHYSICALLY RETURNS on that day, with everyone able to see Him, per that verse and also Zechariah14:2-7; Revelation 19:11ff is when it actually occurs. In short, the whole world will SEE Him descend from heaven (with us riding behind Him) on that Day. So it's NOT, the Rapture.
• Noah entering the Ark and Christ RETURNING are not parallel events. Noah is a beneficiary. Christ is Ruler. Noah receives the action; Christ DOES the action. On earth. Visibly.
• Noah entering the Ark and Christ PAYING for sins, ARE parallel events, 1Pet3:18-22. All of humanity was in the Ark, positionally. All our sins were imputed to Christ, so we were in Him, on the Cross (theme of Romans 6-8 ). And, Christ died 57 days prior to the Flood's 2480th anniversary, which was the 1470th anniversary of the Exodus, the 1900th anniversary of Jacob's entry into Egypt, and the 3080th anniversary of Noah's birth. There are more convergences, but this gives you an idea of the Bible's parallelisms.
• And of course, the Flood is never to happen again, Isa54:9ff. So the commonality referenced in Matt24:37, has to do with the SURPRISE ARRIVAL, which obviously means it's physical, never 'spiritual'.

In short, a false hermeneutic gives rise to false numbers, so the prediction based on those numbers, inevitably fails to occur.

But if one wants to use certain numbers, he must craft an artificial hermeneutic to make those numbers seem Biblical. That's what happened, here.

Even so, let's pretend Camping's hermeneutic were valid. HE STILL GETS THE DATE WRONG. Here's why.

1. The Noahic calendar was based on the autumnal equinox, and is solar. But Genesis 7 isn't.
2. The Bible's calendar for Israel, is based on the vernal equinox, and is solar (Exodus 12). But Genesis 7, isn't.
3. Genesis 7 is based on Noah's BIRTHDAY, so is solar. The modern Judaic calendar, is lunar. So it cannot be used. Today's modern Judaic calendar's '17 Iyyar' is actually TWO WEEKS SLOW. Using the Bible's calendar for Israel, '17 Iyyar' occurred on May 6 or 7 (depending on timezone).
4. So to properly date Genesis 7, you have to know Noah's Birthday. This, Camping did not have.
5. Noah's birthday is NOT directly given in the passage.
6. But God keyed Israel's birthday to Noah's, in Exodus 12.
7. Moreover, the Hebrew text in Genesis 7-8 has three errors. That's why the translations are unclear, and don't balance. They were easy mistakes to make, for the right words are very similar in Hebrew, to the wrong ones. Thus it would be easy to miscopy. These errors were corrected by the LXX text for the same verses. So the correct dates are:
• Genesis 7:11, should read the 27th day of the second month (after Noah's birthday);
• Genesis 8:4, should read the 27th day of the seventh month;
• Genesis 8:5, should read the ELEVENTH month.
8. Hence, to get the right date, you must either convert from the autumnal equinox, or have Noah's Birthday. Camping ignored both.
9. Noah's birthday would become Passover, since a) he's the TYPE (Christ being the anti-type), carrying humanity, as it were; b) the death of the firstborn in Egypt, was the anti-type for the TYPE, the death of the unbelievers in the Flood. (Nerd note: in prophecy theology, 'type' denotes the metaphorical depiction 'near', and 'anti-type' means the ultimate 'far' fulfillment. All prophecy is dual-event in nature, hence the need to classify 'type' and 'anti-type'. The word 'anti' here has no negative connotation.)

So Israel's birthday, was the 1610th anniversary of Noah's, so she was born 1010 years after the Flood began; her deadline to enter the Land was the 1050th year, which year Moses pens Psalm 90, just before he dies.

(See links in the black text at bottom, for sample of Bible Hebrew Meter: dateline use of meter, 63 as 'sevens', shows he's writing 1050 years after the Flood. Paul will repeat this meter, in Eph1:3-14.) That's why she had a 40-year wandering (versus some other amount). She enters it just before Passover, Joshua 5:10 (see prior context).

10. So Noah entered the ark, on what would have been Pentecost; for the 57th day after Passover begins, is Pentecost. Numbers 28:26 says to begin counting the Omer, when the LAST day of Passover week, ends. (Jews today instead miscount the Omer from the 15th of Nisan.)

The crazy Book of Jubilees, vi.17, claims both Firstfruits and Weeks date from when Noah exited the Ark, and the covenant God then made with him.

11. Since the Bible's calendar for Israel is based on the vernal equinox, Exodus 12, and since Noah entered the Ark on what would be Pentecost, it's easy to CONVERT Genesis 7:11 to the right date. In 2011, the vernal equinox occurred on March 21, Israel's time.
12. So, 14+57=the day Noah entered the Ark, which is May 30th (today). Adjusting to Jewish time, since the NEW Jewish day begins piggybacked on the old, and the vernal equinox began after sundown, that means May 31 is the end of that 'day', ASSUMING our current dating of the vernal equinox is correctly the SAME as measured in Noah's day. It might not be.

So if Camping were filled with the Holy Spirit, he'd a) know that Israel's current calendar is NOT the right one to use, and b) would know how to adjust it to God's Calendar for Genesis 7, including a correction for c) Israel's miscounting of the Omer, and d) the correct text in Genesis 7's LXX. For, even this brainout, knew how to do that. 😀

13. Notice the parallels: harvesting means cutting off. Harvesting also means SAVING. So Noah's family was saved from the deluge by being cut off from the world. The world was cut off by a LITERAL REAL DISASTER. Same, for the Exodus, which also was a year long.
14. The total time in the boat was ONE YEAR of 365 days. Not, 370.
15. The numbers in Genesis 7 DO form a pattern of TIME factors God repeats in Scripture, but Camping ignored them; so Camping's timeline flunks on Bible audit. Bible Hebrew Meter and other explict-even-in-translation periods in the Bible, repeat these factors; they are hard-coded into the Mosaic Law and in Israel's actual history. See links in the black text at bottom, for sample of Bible Hebrew Meter. Here, we'll just classify some major factors, so you can see the connection between number, Mosaic Law, and Bible's own accounting of history.

➡️ *57 days (most common Hebrew meter pattern, Paul even uses it in Eph1:3-14's Greek), based on Gen 7:11, 8:14. Notice it's PAIRED at the beginning when he enters, and when he exits. That same PAIRING pattern is used in prophetic Bible Hebrew Meter (Psalm 90 uses it the most, followed by Isaiah 53, Daniel 9, other passages). It is explicitly shown in the Mosaic Law by Passover plus Pentecost, and by Jubilee plus Tribulation, Daniel 9:27.

Historically, 57 is a much-stressed number, for its root definition is the number of years between Messiah's scheduled DEATH and the Millennium. Because He died 7 years earlier than Scheduled owing to Israel's rejection of Him, the Tribulation must yet occur. There were prior periods, such as the 49 missed sabbatical years, with Daniel praying in that 49th year; added to, the seven total years spent rebuilding the second Temple, all of which Isaiah prophetically SCHEDULED in the meter of Isaiah 53, as had Moses in Psalm 90:16-17 -- this is why Daniel 9:25 reads as it does, a REIMBURSEMENT for that lost time.

If your eyes are glazing over, take a break and watch a 2- minute video I made showing the SYMBOLIC use meter pattern, here:

I know it won't make much sense to you right now. Even so, you did notice, that the Hebrew 'paragraphs' are metrically patterned.

But its pattern is not merely symbolic. Using those same numbers, Isaiah plots out Israel's REAL FUTURE history metrically, 'underneath' the text about Messiah; every clause in that text ALSO characterises the period Isaiah meters to, i.e., Isaiah 53:1-2 meters to evil King Manasseh's actual history, so notice how the TEXT about growing-up and rejecting, has a dual-entendre.

So, I made similar short video showing that Real Future History Per Syllable=year pattern, here:

Daniel 9 is based on the Isaiah 53 pattern: that's why '490' is mentioned. What you can't see is that Daniel's Hebrew prayer, meters off Isaiah 53, also recounting (but from the past), Israel's history from David forward. So you know EXACTLY why the '490' is used in Daniel 9:24-25. In English, it's confusing.

Moses in Psalm 90 started that patterning, and also plotted out real future history (i.e., 350 syllables=350 years, so Judges was written to show how that 350 got 'met').

It's a rhetorical style, since Jews had to memorize Scripture orally. I'm still making videos on this topic.

Now you've a sense of how tightly God Orchestrates Time in Bible; and it's FAR superior to anything you've seen from Camping or anyone else. Blows you away when you see it.

💡 So the timing stated for Noah in the Flood, became the timing of all history, with '57' ('56' between), forming how history begins, and ends. Which, is hard-coded in the Mosaic Law, as just mentioned.

💡 So now notice carefully, the ultimate importance of '57', in what follows, which proves why Camping's use of '23' and '2300' is flat wrong.

Plain Bible text tells you that 2300 days is literal, and belongs ONLY to the period of Antiochus Epiphanes IV. That's the Origin of Chanukah, the Lord's future BIRTHDAY. So Christ is talking about what gave rise to His Own Birthday, in Matt24. Temple To Come from The Temple Rebuilt -- get the pun? What holiday resulted in His Own Birthday! See, Temple Dedicated = Chanukah = Enoch = Natsar = Nazareth. Clever, huh.

The same event will happen AGAIN, but with a different actor and on a different timeline, the Tribulation: 2556.75 days, not 2300, which is 57 days longer as long depicted in Passover to Pentecost timeline. Temple went down TWICE on that same Timeline, a kind of debit. So the time is owed Israel. So Tribulation period is 57 days longer, to add it BACK. That parallels the 57-year shortfall assigned for the Harvesting of the Gentiles, (so Daniel 9 doesn't mention the 50), taught by Passion Week and Jubilee. And all THAT, is to play off a reimbursement to the Gentiles for Abraham maturing 54 years early -- really 53.5 years. So that's why the Tribulation is bifurcated into two 3.5 year segments, first 3.5 of which are the period of the Two Witnesses. (Seventh Trumpet in Rev kicks off the last 3.5 years.)

So notice the difference: Antiochus invaded Egypt, then Israel, then desecrated the Temple, and until just before 164BC Chanukah, remained in control. The entire time he did that, was exactly 2300 days. Jews needed to know the exact number of days, to PREPARE for the deliverance. So, they counted.

It's OVER now. But the same idea must play again, because Christ was rejected. For Jews then, the timeline to watch is therefore the last half: both the 1290 and the 1335 are dated from the END of the Trib (so you count backwards), to calculate the exit window (at day 1222 to 1267, which ends a week after the Two witnesses are killed, 2557-1335 versus 2557-1290).

So Trib is Chanukah II, Satan's sequel. Satan wants us nice and confused about it. Camping helps Satan confuse us, since we won't do our homework.

Anything, to denigrate Christ! FOR ONLY ONE DAY IN THE BIBLE IS ACCOUNTED AS 1000 YEARS -- THE DAY OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

Camping ignores this. That's why he has to twist the 2300 days, to hide his bad math. Playing right into Satan's hands.

➡️ *21 days (very commonly used in the meter passages cited above), based on Gen 8:8-12. The three 7's replay many times in Israel's history: 7 years to build Temple foundation, 1Kings 6. 21 years' hiatus to rebuild Temple, Haggai 2 (and related other books, like Ezra). Separate sevens also play, like the 2Sam5 civil war, David's living seven extra years post-retirement (1Kings 1:1-2:10, end 1Chronicles). You can think of others.

➡️ *40 days -- easily known. Notice, just as with the 57, it's PAIRED on either side, Genesis 7:12, 8:6. (Same thing will happen during Joseph's tenure as vizier, with the seven fat and lean years being in the middle.) Notice how David's rule and Solomon's rule (and hence the scheduled lifetime of Christ) were also the same period, 40. So 40 years in the wilderness, is 'matched', with 40 extra years the Temple stands post-Crucifixion. Notice how the 40's are always doubled to mark beginning and ending.

➡️ * 110 days (to make 150)=63+47, 56+54,40+70, other Biblically-significant combinations.

Some of the Bible meanings are obvious, like 70 for sabbatical years, 56 between Passover and Pentecost, between Pentecost and 9th Av (when Temple destroyed -- twice), the total number of weeks remaining in Daniel 9:25 after the 49 is used up (70+49+7=the amount of time the 1st Temple was still owed). 54, is the number of years Abraham matured prior to the deadline (of 2100 from Adam's Fall).

These numbers are used a lot in Hebrew meter, at least since Psalm 90; even Paul meters Eph 1:3-14's Greek using 63, 56 (the latter being a kind of Anno Domini for how old Christ would have been when Paul pens the prayer). I'm currently doing videos on all the combinations (starting at Psalm 90 playlist, Episode 19 and following).

➡️ * 93 days (distance between Genesis 8:4 and :5, in LXX) is also played in factors, in both explicit Bible time distances, and occasionally in Hebrew meter: 30+63, 33+60, 40+53, 46+47. 30 is a savior number (when David became King, when Christ announced Himself, when Joseph became vizier); 33, is a ruling period number: David's rule after becoming King of all Israel, Christ's actual lifetime. Christ dies at age 33 years, 3 months, 3 weeks and 3 days (born on Chanukah 4BC, Haggai 2; dies on what should have been 14 Nisan, 30AD, John 19 -- but was nominally 4 days later, owing to lack of intercalation).

See: God isn't trying to wow us. He's teaching future and past HISTORY. Showing, that the Bible is His Word. Then, keeping that Word.

So, just as predicted, Abraham actually matured 53.5 years prior to the deadline, in the very year Noah's 490-year time grant ran out (Shem+490=Isaac's birth year). But it's rounded to 54 -- 14 of those years will 'reimburse' for his too-early maturation, being 'spent' on rebuilding the 2nd Temple; the remaining 40 are 'reimbursed' post Cross, during Gentile time but the Temple lost 40 years 'waiting' for Israel to enter the Land, so remains standing even though Church Age began.

So sometimes the 53.5 is pregnantly referenced (rounding down). 63 is 56+7, very frequently used, especially in Isaiah and Daniel 9's prayer (as chronology meters for Israel's history).

60 is Jacob's age when he returns to Canaan; Isaac's age, when he finally sires children; 60 also is two months, or a one-month notice fronting and ending another period. (In Bible, each month excepting Adar, runs 30 days.)

➡️ * 4 days This one is most pregnant, for it's the difference between the day the dove is last released, and Noah's birthday, Gen 8:12 vs. 8:13. This corresponds to Christ's future INCARCERATION time during Passion Week, which no Bible movie ever made, properly depicts.

The four days -- really, 3.5 -- is pregnantly OMITTED, for due to Exodus 12, everyone in Israel would know the dove's release, was the Lamb Set Aside Date (10th of Nisan in Exo12).

It pre-celebrated the Date the Lord was Arrested, Israel's calendar not being intercalated that year (so they declared Passover four days earlier than it really was, hence the Lord could eat yet Be the Passover and rise at the End of it, 3.5 days later, called 'FirstFruits' in the Bible).

Other Bible events have 3.5 benchmarks: Trib is bifurcated, for example. And of course the Lord spent 3.5 days in Hades: three days and three nights means 3.5 24-hour days.

One is tempted to speculate on why our modern calendars are also missing 3.5 years (that's why we can either round up to 4 or round down to 3, when converting AD/BC).

The more prosaic reason, is the ROMAN AUC had been accounted with Rome's birthdate as 753BC, but somehow in the BC/AD conversion it was treated instead as 750BC. So that's just a flat deletion of time.

It's tempting to draw analogy, though. 😀

No BIBLE factors in '93', nor '110' tally to a hermeneutic of 17 or 23. There is no precedence in CHARACTER. There is no patterned time matching either '17' or '23'. Again, TIME allotment must match the CHARACTER of that time's PURPOSE. God orchestrates time for a purpose, theme of Isaiah 55. Thus you know GOD's doing it.

EVERY Bible event is keyed to and uses, Biblically-significant TIME numbers. That's why the Mosaic calendar is crafted from the Flood's; that's why Israel has TWO years: civil runs same as the secular calendar in Noah's, but the spiritual runs based on Noah's birthday. That's why time-metered passages like Psalm 90, Isaiah 53, Daniel 9's prayer and God's response in verses 24-25, all use the 'factors' just shown above.

Those passages PLOT OUT Israel's history -- because again, the Jews ORALLY MEMORIZED Scripture, so the idea was to match the meter to the time period the CONTENT references. Made it easier to understand. So Israel could know what Time It Was in Her Promise Calendar. So she'd be able to prove Christ the Real Messiah versus all the false ones -- when He Came.

So anyone claiming a date in Bible must pay attention to Bible's TIMING rules. Camping used NONE of the numbers above, so no matter WHAT dates he claims, they can't be Biblically valid.

And now that the Church Age is still going on (Camping, of course, lies and claims it ended, to justify his past 1988 and 1994 mistakes) -- Church has NO set timeline, but rather a SET NUMBER OF BODIES, Eph 4:13 criterion, which Christ prayed for in John 17:17-26. Thus we can't know 'the day or hour', an idiom for NO TIME (can't know the year, either).

Because, for Church it depends on when we corporately MATURE to the Eph4:13 STANDARD. No one can know that, but God.

Anyone can play fancy games with numbers; all holy books use sacred numerology. But only Bible's numbers match in CHARACTER and also in REAL HISTORY you can vet: 70 years between 586BC and 516BC when 2nd Temple was rebuilt; Christ dying the 1470th anniversary of the original Passover; Temple going down on the 57+57th day, 9th Av -- twice. The second time, on the 586th anniversary of its completion. (So God foreknew we'd switch to BC/AD.) Many other examples.

Psalm 90, Isaiah 53, Daniel 9 use these Biblically-significant numbers as meter, and then use the meter to craft chronologies of history, whether future or past. Thus, when the event actually occurred at the same number of 'syllables' (for Israel had to memorize Scripture orally) -- it would be a reminder. And a convenient history lesson, ex post facto.

Revelation's plagues are deliberate rollouts evocative of both Flood and Exodus. They are timed, they have specific duration and rest periods, waiting for man's response. So it's not 'coincidence'. Bible's past history and measurable known history can be objectively compared so the Trib person can come to an informed decision. That's the point.

So were Camping's 17 and 23 hermeneutic Biblically valid, there would be a string of PAST events in the Bible 'arranged' to 'factor' to '17' and '23'. But there are none. So no believer can derive doctrinal benefit from the numerical association. God isn't orchestrating specific amounts of time to 'wow' us or prove He can count. HE IS TEACHING SOMETHING.

So were 17 or 23 a factor He'd use, then it would be REPEATED in other ways, prior. But it's not. This proves a big problem for Camping, so he goes searching in the Bible for ANY reference to '17' or '23' that he can find, in order to SPIN it into what he wants.

Ergo, this 'engineer' creates a Spiritual Enron. Fake books. See: in accounting, there must be a MATCHING OF CHARACTER for a transaction. What felled Enron: a) they kept liabilities off the main balance sheet, so made the company look more solvent than it was; and b) they manipulated the off-balance sheet numbers to look meaningful, when they weren't. That way, the liabilities which DIDN'T show on the balance sheet, looked SMALLER than they were. That's why Enron lasted as long as it did.

That's what Camping does here. And of course, that's why his credibility is likewise bankrupt, now.

In rapture-proof.pdf, for example, starting on page 2, he claims '17' is significant spiritually FOR TIME, in Bible. Okay, then where is this vaunted 17-year thing? Or, even 17 days? NOWHERE is it a time measure for judgement, redemption, or anything else. Of course, sometimes the age or duration happens to BE that long, such as here: Gen. 37:2; 47:28; Jdg. 8:14, 26; 2 Sam. 8:4; 1 Ki. 14:21; 2 Ki. 13:1; 1 Chr. 7:11; 26:30; 2 Chr. 8:18; 12:13; Ezr. 2:39; Neh. 7:42; Jer. 32:9.

Those are all the references to '17' in the Bible. Notice: they help you FIT the Bible's consecutive-year timeline together. The numbers in themselves, aren't important Biblically. Nothing in the Jewish calendar, is based on '17'.

But hey. Camping will pick any '17' he finds. So what does he seize on (still his page 2)? Jeremiah 32:9. Which isn't about time, but about PRICE. Ooops. Mismatch. But hey, that won't stop him. He goes on to talk about anything which will make his silly numbers look good. And thus shoots himself in the foot.

So let's analyze these two quotes. First one, about the Temple tax: 17 divided by 2, is what? 8.5. Multiplied by 2, is what? 34. Sooooo? None of those numbers are Biblically-significant.

By contrast, in BIBLE which Camping hates, God does converge Time and pointedly, all over the place, to this end: Christ's payment on the Cross occurred on the 1470th anniversary of the original Passover! For God's hermeneutic is 490 (1470/3), same as he gave to Moses in Psalm 90, Isaiah in Isaiah 53, Daniel in Daniel 9, Paul in Eph1:3-14. For each of those guys, meters his Hebrew (or Greek) to 490 years. Yeah, because each of those passages, is a TIMELINE. Predicting or recapping real BIBLE events you can vet IN Bible (see links at the end of this post for the many videos demonstrating the foregoing). That's the purpose of the numbers, so Israel can TRACK TIME.

Now let's go to Camping's second hallucination, that '17 frequently signifies Heaven', with Jeremiah 32:9 as the poster boy example. Okay, then: how is the purchase of land in ISRAEL, symbolizing heaven? Did Camping read the context at ALL? BIBLE says right there, that purchase symbolizes how ISRAEL -- not Church -- ISRAEL will be restored. ISRAEL. ISRAEL. ISRAEL. And, ON EARTH. Not, heaven.

You don't need to buy real estate in heaven. 😀 And there are NO other references to '17' in the Bible, so how can it be the number for heaven?

But ask any Jew, and he'll tell you that '8' is the number for eternity, aka 'heaven'. Doubled-4: 4 signifies COMPLETENESS. Hupostasis, 2 natures, Plan of God. To Get You TO Heaven.

That '8' is often used for ETERNITY and the Plan of God, is all over Bible Hebrew meter. The essential structure of Hebrew meter: clauses of between 3-12 syllables, made into 'paragraphs' divisible by that Number of Promise, 7. Hence, clauses often subdivide at 8; CONTENT says something about either eternity, or the Plan of God.

I've spent the past two years documenting this usage in videos, which are linked in the 'Relevant Links' section at the end of this post. The videos show the Hebrew live onscreen, in BibleWorks, using the unedited BHS text, so you can vet the syllabification yourself. The video descriptions contain links to the text in documents you can view or print yourself. Then you will see that '17' does NOT mean 'heaven'.

So where are '17' and '23' used? The OCCULT, not Bible. Mystical numbers as prophetic or 'esoteric knowledge' which Bible CONDEMNS, in Deuteronomy 18. Camping picks primes commonly used in Kabbalah and other OCCULT sects. Google, see for yourself!

The 8th Day. Someone wrote a novel with that title, just Google. Turn 8 sideways, and you get the math symbol for eternity, too. 💡

Next, that Jeremiah got the land for only 17 shekels (about 2 month's wages for a lowly day-laborer), at a time when Israel was suffering RAMPANT INFLATION -- that tells you the land was considered worthless. So per Camping, if '17' means 'heaven', then 'heaven' is worthless!

Of course, land prices SHOULD have been much higher, since the Jubilee had ended about four years prior; but uh.. Israel wasn't observing her Jubilees. That's why the Temple AT THAT MOMENT was under seige and going to be destroyed, Lev. 26:34, 43; 2 Chr. 36:21, Eze 46:3, Jer25 and 29. The Ezekiel verse is a prophecy yet to be fulfilled ON EARTH. Not, in heaven. Demonstrating why Jeremiah was given to buy the property. Which, would still be his. In that future ON EARTH.

Demonstrating, that God not only kept His Promise to return Israel in 538BC, but even until the day when Ezekiel 46:3, comes true ON EARTH.

😁 See: Camping's virulently anti-semitic, and of course pretends he's not. No other way to conclude his vile reversal of Jeremiah 32:9, which of course ties to all Jeremiah has said, all along. No Church in OT prophecy. But if you're anti-semitic, you'll TWIST SCRIPTURE to put Church in there. That's what he's doing.

So he's also just like the evolutionists, who twist genetics. Because an ape walks on two legs and so does man, therefore the man came from the ape. How silly. Cobbling together just any ol' pair of numbers does not a prophecy make. GOD MATCHES NUMBERS TO EVENT CHARACTER. Camping doesn't. No match to TIME units, no match to PLACE, and no match to AMOUNT.

👿 So FLUNK, on the 17. And as for '23', you'll have to just read rapture-proof.pdf for yourself, I'm too embarrassed to explain his goofy twisting. Here are all the verses in Bible in which some version of '23' appears: Num. 26:62; 33:39; Jdg. 10:2; 20:15; 2 Ki. 23:31; 1 Chr. 2:22; 2 Chr. 3:8; 36:2; Ezr. 2:11, 17, 19, 21, 28; Neh. 7:24, 26, 32; Jer. 25:3; 52:28; Dan. 8:14, 26; 1 Co. 10:8. LOL none of them are relevant to what Camping claims, use 1John1:9 and see for yourself.

Wait: here's a relevant verse, Jeremiah 25:3 (NASB):

"From the thirteenth year of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah, even to this day, these twenty-three years the word of the LORD has come to me, and I have spoken to you again and again, but you have not listened. "

Ooops. Lessee -- it's now 2011, and 23 years ago was what? Aha -- 1988! When Camping went wacko, same time as the 88 Reasons for the Rapture in 1988 book was penned by that other nutter, Whisenant! (LOL a relative of mine sent me that book, drooling over it.)

Sigh. And so we see that oh yeah, 23 has a relevance! WARNING Camping & Co. they've been in lala land, replete with another lalala person that same year -- who they drooled over -- so now, year 23, Camping et al get humiliated!
See: God really IS orchestrating Time. 😭

UPSHOT: there's NO precedence for '17' or '23', so NO lesson to be learned; so God does NOT use 17 or 23, to craft a 'rapture' or any other kind of date. The closest thing you can say about those numbers is that they add up to '40', but nowhere in Scripture is this '40' subdivided into a Biblically-important period comprising a 17 and a 23. God is The Master Accountant of Time. He'd not 'miss' this.

The absence of '17' and '23' teaching mnemonics in Bible should have tipped Camping off to the fact he was using the WRONG criteria, had he actually consulted Bible to vet his analysis. He clearly didn't.

Go on, play with it. I dare ya. 😛

Camping wrongly uses and wrongly dates, the Flood. But the Flood does set a precedence of TIME Warning. Just not, the one Camping claims.

What Camping claims, proves wrong in hermeneutic, calendar used, methodology, and in his own math. Highlight Summary:

➡️ Wrong Hermeneutic, as Camping parallels Ark entry to Second Advent. Bible parallels Ark to Cross, so it cannot be used for a future date parallel: the type was Noah, the anti-type was Christ, so the prophecy was COMPLETED.

➡️ Wrong Hermeneutic, as he DATES what is not dateable (2nd Advent depends on WHEN the Rapture occurs).

➡️ Wrong Hermeneutic, as the Noahic period is a different COVENANT versus Church, and Church is not Israel, either. Each covenant has its own time period. Camping mixes these three up.

➡️ Wrong Calendar, as Camping uses a modern lunar calendar, though Noah's was solar (whether or not Noah's birthday was Passover, or coincided with the vernal equinox).

➡️ Wrong Calendar, as he uses a mistranslation, so is dating from a 47th day, versus Bible's 57th day.

➡️ Wrong Methodology, as Camping insists on 722,500 days as the length of time.

➡️ Wrong Methodology, as Camping CREATED the '17' and '23' factors to GET the 722,500, and then pretends those OCCULT numbers, are instead Biblical. And of course, he can't produce any supporting Bible verses, so wildly must twist a few way out of context, just because they SEEM to have the same numbers in them.

➡️ Wrong Methodology, as there are no verses in Bible which allow for an independent vetting of either his factors, or his total number of days.

➡️ Wrong Internal Math, for his 722,500 can yield a DIFFERENT date from the one he ARBITRARILY CHOSE from the wrong calendar (modern Judaic, rather than by recourse to ancient Judaic or more properly, Noahic), using the Biblical rounding of 365.25 for a solar year. Which means, his own rounding is artificial, solely invented to feign 'balance', and has no independent verification method available to it.

Thus we see God really is Orchestrating Time: against, Camping and all Rapture Date-Setters. Hence his embarrassment now, Jeremiah 25:3.

For the Flood instead depicts scheduled periods of historical judgment trends since Adam, which are still operational; I've been documenting those trends in Bible since 2004. It's a housecleaning to prevent the human race from getting too religious, etc. All this is explained in Leviticus 26 and Deut 28.

'Our' housecleaning started in 2010, probably on the vernal equinox. I did a video introducing this 'Pass the Salt' topic. Then I spent a number of videos tracing these periods from Adam forward, which are in the video DESCRIPTION, here:

One important feature of this 120-year trend period -- ours ends in 2130AD -- is the PUBLIC SHAMING of apostate Christianity. We're seeing it all over the place, and of course now most famously, with respect to Camping's shame, itself.
Every 490-560 years, as the 'Pass the Salt' brief video, explains:

• previous period, the Reformation;
• prior to that, the Crusades;
• prior to that, the reforming monks;
• prior to that, the aftermath of the Cross.

Terrific religious upheaval, as entrenched religion gets a revolutionary kick in the pants. In each case, ENTRENCHED APOSTASY is publicly and massively exposed; Bible in the original-language texts becomes widely disseminated; and the geographical reach of the 'housecleaning', became wider. This time, it's on the internet, and worldwide.

And of course, there's a lot of war, economic disaster, etc. all recorded in waves, per Leviticus 26. So this regular housecleaning has nothing to do with the Rapture: and YES IT IS PHYSICAL, just like the Flood was, but not global. God promised He'd not do it as a global Flood ever again, Gen 8:21-22.

So again, the Flood is not the proper parallel for Rapture, but for Tribulation. And the Trib, runs seven years, not one, and certainly NOT five months. The Revelation 9's five months is of DEMONS released to torment, not raptured up believers, as the text of that Chapter plainly says (i.e., SATAN releases them, not God, they come UP from a smoky JAIL, are numbered, and wreck physical havoc on the earth there and in Revelation 16).

For Rapture is earlier depicted, in Revelation 4. So Rapture is unpredictable, per Hebrews 11:39-40, Matthew 24:36, etc. Each Time period has its OWN covenant, theme of Book of Hebrews (esp. Chapter 10), Galatians, Ephesians, and of course, Revelation. Different covenant, so different prophetical timing.

Vernal/Autumnal equinox calculator: https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/seasons.html?year=1&n=0 Ancient datings will not necessarily be accurate, and you can't go back beyond 1AD. Allow a 3-day swing.

Real Bible's calendar and priestly-course meanings, HebCal.htm. The priestly course names characterize the Noahic benchmarks and were designed to be prophetical for the Coming of Messiah. Long webpage on that is here: PassPlot.htm.

Detailed worksheet of the Bible's own Timeline using ONLY Bible's dates, is here: GeneYrs.xls Notice the many convergences of events, both in Biblical times and now, 'hubbing' around every 490, 560, 1000 and 1050 years. Cell A2 explains the significance of those benchmarks. You can vet all the material in Bible. A quick vetting is provided, here: brainoutFAQ.htm#6a. Read through 6b.

How to properly convert that calendar into 'our' calendar, so you are always getting the right dates: HEBCalConverter.xls. Just adjust for the current year's vernal equinox, which you can get from timeanddate.com . God made it easy to convert, for the real Bible calendar always starts on the vernal equinox. So if Israel screwed up and got it wrong, she could always get it right again.

But she doesn't. Too much persecution has tired her out. Who can't empathize? So...

Sample Modern Hebrew calendar which Camping used for his predictions, instead: https://aish.com/jewish-calendar/.

When you download the calendar, you'll see that modern Jews consider May 21 to be 17 Iyyar. But that doesn't align with the Bible's calendar, since the modern Jewish calendar is LUNAR.

So it will NEVER align to Bible. Even the year number is wrong. We're in the 6117th year from Adam's fall. Their calendar calls it year 5771. This is due to an ancient Jewish calendar called the Seder Olam Rabbah, which wasn't designed to be a literal calendar, but to measure this Prophecy Time (based on the meter in Psalm 90).

Draft chart of the Flood Precedence and Prophetic Impact is here: FloodChronoREVISED.doc. Gist is okay, but more analysis is needed. If you prefer pdf (which is 5x bigger), just change the 'doc' to 'pdf' in the link above.

That Israel has always known the Noahic Flood dates were precedence for the Mosaic calendar, is revealed in a long book which you can read here: A Study of the Interpretation of Noah and the Flood in Jewish and Christian Literature (page 50) The author compiled original-language mss. and related Targums plus compared what ancients thought of the relationship between the Flood and the Mosaic Law, so you're looking at source material, not 'spin'. Book costs $129 at Amazon (half that price, if used).

Sample of Bible Hebrew meter and its usage in Psalm 90:

Associated video & review the video's description, it better catalogues meter than I had time to list in the video:

Longer explanation of Psalm 90 with the same parsing but no handwriting, plus METERED translation and notes: Ps90Parsed.pdf.

Psalm 90 sets the precedence for Bible Hebrew meter, and only today (5/30/2011) I realize that meter is DERIVED from Genesis 7-8.

THANK YOU, DepartOut Forum and Harold Camping: Frankly, were it not for his false prediction, I'd not know of him or it, and I'd not have learned this, either. I've long known the Noahic calendar was the precedence for Bible Hebrew meter, but couldn't wrap my head around HOW.

Thanks to his error and Youtubers who were concerned about what he said, I needed to join here; was graciously allowed in on a very busy day! Then, dig into Genesis 7-8 again, and now see that pattern.

Best I can do to say thank you, is make posts like this one. Hope they aren't too annoying!

I cover the meter pattern at length in my Psalm 90 video playlist, showing the Hebrew live onscreen (in BibleWorks, not edited): cross-compares Isaiah 53, Daniel 9, and even the Greek of Eph1:3-14 to show this is a pointed rhetorical style in Bible. Youtube Psalm 90 playlist is the main source showing these meter relationships. The tif and pdf files are linked in those videos' descriptions, beginning in Episode 19. I'm still making videos on this, and won't finish for at least a year. If you want to see the same thing off-Youtube, go here: Mirroring.htm. That page is the central webpage on how God Orchestrates time, and all related videos are at the bottom of the page.

Isaiah 53's pattern:

Whether Isaiah had only one writer, and whether Isaiah 53 was right in Hebrew, has been hotly debated for centuries. I learned a) that it's metered perfectly, so b) no words are missing from Chapter 53; so c) only ONE Isaiah, via the selfsame meter. That journey is recorded in videos, here: b-out Isaiah 53 Meter Hypotheses

Daniel 9's meter: DAN9V4-19HebOnePagerPARSED.pdf. It's based on Daniel's prayer meter -- in which he accounts Israel's failure year by year starting with David -- that God answers explicitly with 490, 70, 49, 7, etc. You can't see that in translation, so the 490 appears to come from nowhere. Daniel 9:24-25 are also metered with the same pattern of sevening. Seven=promise, in Bible (same sound, same word, patterned after 7 days in Genesis).

Eph1:3-14: Eph1DecreeSyllablesREPARSED.pdf. Includes metered translation. Some Biblically-significant Greek keywords were mistranslated in English Bibles, which greatly alters how you view the passage (i.e., in English it becomes churchy, snoozy).

Note: the Daniel and Ephesians pdfs are in DRAFT form and will change. The meter is so sophisticated I must first plot out all the interconnections between the four passages. That won't happen until late next year.

In short, I've been working on this for YEARS. Am one very happy camper, right now. THANK YOU AGAIN!

---

gary | Mon May 30, 2011 5:35 pm

All you calendar folks: you could be as right as rain and frankly noone cares. H.C. has spoiled it for the rest of you. a day late and a dollar short guys.

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brainout | Mon May 30, 2011 5:46 pm

The purpose of my post is not like Camping's. Maybe because it's so long, the import failed to register.

Bible has dates in it. The question is, why. Everyone wonders about the dates, everyone debates them, and nearly everyone gets them WRONG. Why? Because, like Camping, they go outside what Bible says itself, to GUESS at what Bible means.

So, Camping being the poster boy here, this post illustrates what mistakes he made in reading Bible, to produce his false date.

As noted at the beginning of the thread and in this post, Rapture can't be dated. Nor am I trying to date it. In fact, this post shows why no one should try to date it, since it's not DESIGNED to be date-able.

Hope this helps. 😀

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brainout | Mon May 30, 2011 10:58 pm

EDIT: You can download this post in Word doc format, here: CampingTimelineGaffes2.doc

Camping's "Adam When" is predicated on a lot of assumptions. A key assumption concerns Hebrew 'Qara shem', versus 'yalad'. This Reply shows how his wrong use of those terms, inter alia, rendered his entire Adam-When timeline, bogus.

1. Camping Relies on TRANSLATIONS

Mr. Camping admitted, during 5/23/2011 Open Forum, that he has no personal knowledge of Bible Hebrew or Greek, and he went to some lengths to praise a good buy he got decades prior, on a 35-volume lexicon of an unnamed editor/lexicographer. Presumably, he made that statement to show he was willing to do his homework.

I can only think of a few such massive sets: Bultman, Kittel, Chafer. Mr. Camping didn't say which one he had. Any of those three would have provided him with ample enough evidence to avoid the gaffe he makes with respect to 'qara shem' and 'yalad'.

2. Camping Claims Original Language Texts are Infallible

In other publications, Camping has repeatedly affirmed that only the original-language texts of Scripture are the infallible Word of God, so that they should be consulted. Well and good. So, we'll consult them in what follows.

3. Bible Hebrew Meaning of qara shem, yalad

In Bible Hebrew, 'qara shem' is the vocabulary form of 'call' and 'name', respectively. Hebrew 'yalad' is the vocabulary form of 'to sire'.

The latter term always denotes fathering, and is quite graphic. But the former, is generic. Jacob qara shem'd his rock-pillow's land 'Bethel', for example (Gen 28:19). The same expression is used for calling God or things of God by names (i.e., Gen 21:33, 32:3, 2Sam6:2).

➡️ So 'qara' has a broad range of usage; if the name-calling meant fathering also, the verse must add text to make that distinction.

➡️ By contrast, the root idea behind the verb 'yalad', is the physical ACT which gave rise to the birth: sex. So it is direct, by default. How to put this delicately? A male appendage can only be in one place at a time. So the root meaning of yalad, is direct siring. The very ACT of it.

The stress on the sex act is meant to stress the genuineness of the son being from the father's very LOINS, not anything prurient. Ancient peoples were not so titillated by sexual language as we are.

So in modern English with its current connotations, we could easily translate yalad, thus: 'And Adam procreated..'

Greek equivalent to yalad, is gennaw, and is famously used throughout 1 John to depict the Holy Spirit 'siring' you. Unfortunately, it's often translated 'born', so you don't get the PROGRESSIVE meaning. For, you are first BORN AGAIN, but now what? You're a newborn. So, you must be sired spiritually, to become mature for heaven. So you too, can bear spiritual kids.

When you sin, you are no longer being 'sired', hence need to use 1John1:9. And over time, you won't be a walad=technon=child, but will become a 'father', yourself (wordplay John uses in 1John2).

For in the Bible, you are 'sired' by your TEACHER, too. See 1 Chr. 25:8; Matt. 10:24f; Lk. 6:40. In short, Eph 4:11-16, you are part of some congregation, and your TEACHER is responsible for 'siring' you (Greek word haphe in 4:16).

See: yalad and gennaw are very direct. No intervening 'fathers'. That's the root meaning of the term(s).

➡️ So if you use yalad to denote subsequent generations from the same progenitor, either a different expression or added text, is needed. In 1Chron1:11, for example, to avoid the humorous idea that a single 'procreate' would beget a whole people -- Hebrew uses 'yalad' plus 'et' and the PLURAL (=im ending) to denote a DISTANCE between progenitor Mitzraim, and the peoples next mentioned. (Notice by contrast, verse 17 -- the genealogy again becomes SINGULAR, for direct sons, when listing the line of Shem.) To see the humor, look at Numbers 11:12 in context. 😀

So unlike 'yalad', which means 'procreate' (fathering-biological, or through teaching), 'qara shem' is used for ANY kind of naming. Both terms' usage pan-Bible are linked below in downloadable documents.

Bible has at least five different ways of denoting 'son' versus 'descendant'. The generic term 'beni', for example, meaning 'sons' -- can easily mean direct son OR descendant; 'sons of Abraham' in John 6-8 and elsewhere, means 'descendants'. Other Bible expressions don't have such flexibility; some only reference descendants, some only mean direct sons.

So it's important to know the exact HEBREW expression, and trace that expression pan-Bible, to be sure of semantic range.

4. "Adam When?" makes God a Black Widow Spider

However, in Adam When? and other publications divulging his own timeline for history, Camping takes the position that the Hebrew construction 'qara shem' is the lone means of establishing a direct sonship, with the 'shem' being the son named.

Else, Mr. Camping contends, the 'son' is really a later descendant.

🙄 🤣 Since yalad references the ACT of sex, to make it signify multiple generations in Genesis 5, 11, and like passages -- Camping in essence contends that each 'father' ALSO 'procreated' with his own daughters and ALSO with their own daughters.

Which, Camping obviously doesn't mean to say. So his claims are clearly based on his ignorance of Hebrew.

So Camping reverses the meaning of yalad and qara shem, in order to justify his (lol) 'Biblical Calendar of History' timeline, such that God is a Black Widow Spider, killing off the progenitor when the next one in line, is born. 🙄

As you'll see in #9, Camping's understanding of the Levitical inheritance listings is ZERO. So in his not-exactly-Biblical Calendar of History you can download from Family Radio http://www.familyradio.com/graphical/literature/calendar--

🤣 Camping turns the kids into birthyear orphans, to make God 'right' about the 430 years!

😡God doesn't need to kill newborns' fathers, to keep His Time Promises. If anything, He kills the sons (Flood, Exodus, Christ on the Cross). 😲

Ooops. In fairness to Camping, he probably means to use a rule-of-thumb idea to show PLAUSIBILITY of the 430 years. Unfortunately, he treats it as a Divine 'proof', as if GOD meant the accounting to go that way. Thus, justifying his own manipulation of numbers to make his past mistakes look correct.

So he trashes the Bible, instead of praising it. Else I'd not have to write this thread, exposing his errors.

PRINCIPLE: Bible is always right. If you don't see that, keep studying. There's either a mistake in the translation, or your understanding. Use 1John1:9 and ask God which is which, and keep digging.

He won't let you down, Psalm 138:2, Hebrews 11:6! You don't need to play games to 'make' the Bible right. That's been the bane of Biblical scholarship for 2000 years.

5. Camping INVENTS 'gaps'

So, most Bible genealogy verses use 'yalad', to trace lineage of MESSIAH: for God wants you to KNOW that lineage. As noted above and again below, the exact phrasing changes to denote direct son or progenitor (i.e., 1Chron1:11 adds 'et' and the PLURAL form of each name as noted above -- which might not be visible, in translation). But per Camping, our Bible genealogies instead constitute a punctuated equilibrium of progenitors. Thus, you couldn't add up siring ages to derive a year-by-year timeline.

So were Camping correct, Bible genealogy would be merely a god-in-the-gaps estimation, not a reliable, annual timeline one can learn, remember, understand.

Frankly, this same idea was in vogue among 'scholars' during the 1950's. No one wanted to spend time analyzing Bible dates and lineages -- especially, to date the Exodus. Too controversial, too much time was needed to hunker down and plot all the detail, proof it, get it reviewed by peers, etc. So, everyone copped out, looked for a way to avoid that painstaking work. They didn't understand Bible's phrasing, and of course were harried by the many pressing needs of their flocks, politics, what have you.

So it became a handy excuse: 'well, Genesis 5 is just an honor roster, there are intervening generations.' Thus they could bypass digging into the rather boring lists upon lists of names, and urge you to 'take it on faith' that 'somehow' the Bible was still right.

So you learned nothing. And remained, uncomfortable. But when you tried to do the roster yourself, you quickly tired out and took the same excuse. C'mon -- you DID do that. So did I. So let's understand the context of what birthed a Camping timeline in light of the larger context of our own -- shall we say -- limited desire to DIG.

Even my pastor was into this game for a brief time. But Bible's words are important. You can't gloss them over. And, beginning in 1977 or so, he insisted that the line was consecutive, as indeed we shall see that it is. Live and Learn. Bible wins. Laziness loses.

6. Camping INVENTS 'fathers' to cover his TIME mistakes

With this once-popular, generation-gappy notion of Genesis 5 and 11 as his hermeneutic, Camping then proceeds to reconstruct the Genesis 5 and 11 timelines from Adam forward, into an assumed number of years per 'son'; deeming most of them to be later descendants, NOT direct sons of the 'sire' mentioned in each Bible verse.

However, the many other genealogies, i.e., of the priests in Leviticus, the returnees to the Land to rebuild the Temple, etc. -- where the SAME LANGUAGE as Genesis 5,11 is used -- Camping deems them direct sons.

The laughable Book of Jubilees "iv" might have furnished Camping with some of his imaginative material. But even these, depict direct sons.

So notice: if you get away with claiming UNNAMED 'fathers' in the 'gaps', you can craft ANY AMOUNT OF TIME you want.

So, that's what Camping does. He needs to justify a claim that there are 7000 years between Flood and his latest 'rapture' date, to fudge over his past errors. No problemo! Just ASSume distances between progenitors, make some comments about Hebrew he doesn't understand, and trust that the sheeple won't check up on what he says.

It's really that simple. That's how the Book of Jubilees is constructed, too. That's how someone doctored Genesis 5 in the LXX, to make it tally to a roster of Babylonian kings. (I guess that was the big competition, back in the 3rd century BC.)

It works, with those ignorant of Bible, whose eyes glaze over when reading the many begats, place names, numbers, etc. Sucker born every minute.

Give me any 'rapture date' you want, and I'll 'prove' it valid using Scripture. It will be a lie, of course. But it won't SOUND like one. 😀

Watch how I do it. In what follows, every date I give you is really in the Bible, really provable as the TIMELINE, as I've been documenting it since 2004. So the convergence you're about to see, is REAL, unlike Camping's goofball junk. So watch how I take REAL Divine Data, but slightly twist it at the beginning...

THE SCAM: Say the Rapture date we want to make money on is May 31, 2030. It's Memorial Day, Pentecost, has a nice ring to it. That's safely far away enough so people don't worry about their families, too. Gets everyone hustling. 😀

Now watch all the convergences:

• 2000th anniversary of Acts 2 Pentecost, to the day;
• 2000th anniversary of the Crucifixion +57 days;
• 3000th anniversary of David's retiring from Kingship,
• 2063rd anniversary of the Lord's Birth, +180 days
• 3063rd anniversary of David's becoming King of all Israel,
• 3430th anniversary of Israel's entry into the Land,
• 3470th anniversary of the Exodus +57 days,
• 3900th anniversary of Jacob's entry into Egypt +57 days,
• 3960th anniversary of Joseph being sold as a slave,
• 3990th anniversary of when Jacob first went to Haran,
• 4090th anniversary of Isaac's birth,
• 4190th anniversary of Abraham's birth,
• 4480th anniversary of the Flood, to the day.

So notice: 180+57+57+57=351-365 equals what? 14! Same as the trebled 14's in Matthew 1's genealogy! So the Church is Complete!!!! Hooorrrryayyyyyaaaayyyy!

See: Camping just crafted what he wanted to sell. You can, too.

Maybe pick a Rapture date as a birthday present. 😀

7. Camping INVENTS 'timeline' to cover his mistakes

Thus Camping derives an inconsistent timeline, with the result that he alleges 7000 years between the Flood and 2011. Hence his conclusion that May 21, 2011 would be the 'Rapture'. The May 21 gaffe is handled in the first reply of this thread, and elsewhere in this Forum.

Truth was, he first picked the numbers he wanted and then back-invented the justification for them, just like in Example 2's Chicanery. Fudge a little here, add a little there, twist a little another place. So first he calculated what DATES he needed, and then fudged the timeline to FIT those dates, and then quote-mined Scripture to FIT his fudged timeline. Give me any set of dates, and I can do the same thing.

So CYA, he alleges now the world will end five months later, October 21. But still using the WRONG calendar (thereby proving he picked the date FIRST, without thinking). So his date is 10 days off. So, the NOAHIC date is 'our' Halloween. 😲

Yeah, All Hallow's Eve, Dia de Los Muertes, right time for bones, in America and Mexico, some other places.

But ooops: Camping's use of Jeremiah 25:33 to make this ghoulish prediction, is predicting against.. him! For what is the passage about? How Israel's enemies will be CRUSHED! I hope you know, that Scripture constantly tells Israel how bad she is. So those who take advantage of God's Judgment against her -- here, Camping -- will be crushed as a consequence.

Jeremiah 25:33 is about that judgment against THEM, and against the SHEPHERDS. Camping of course doesn't notice how Jeremiah 25:3 tells him that his own prediction at the 23-year-mark will be proven a fraud, since Camping didn't listen to GOD. None of the other shepherds, except those hawking Camping wares, are at any 23-year mark. So the judgment is specific against him, not 'the churches', even if we pretended that Jeremiah was referencing 'churches' (which he's not, Church wasn't prophesied).

So, verse 33, executes that prediction. Against, Camping &Co. No waiting for another five months, either. But it might take that long, to live down, their humiliation. Which, of course now is obvious: all the Camping followers are dung in the eyes of the world, very publicly, very much lying in the streets.

One wants to have pity; but it's hard to pity those who gloat over the world's destruction. Just as Jer 25:33 counsels. If we pity them, we give them excuse for their actions. Hurts, to be cold.

So what did Camping also miss, in his zeal to see the world turned into a charnel house? Giving rise, to his own exposure, humiliation? The 'bones' of Ezekiel 37:11-14 are ISRAEL's RESURRECTION -- all the SAVED Old Testament and Trib people come back to life, for they get their INHERITANCE in the Millennium, which is the main theme in Ezekiel (see also Hebrews 11).

So noooo biological material flying up from graves like Chainsaw Massacre, rotting topside to 'shame' them. Rather, the Ezekiel 39 Armaggedon dead in Israel -- though the dead are everywhere, it's the end of a world war -- even they get buried. It takes seven months, as there are so many. They aren't coming up from any graves. They are newly dead.

So God's idea is to MEMORIALIZE the dead, as the Rev passage plainly states. Respect for the slain, how the mighty have fallen, even though they were wrong. Same memorializing as for the Flood dead, the Passover dead. 'They died so you could live' is always the theme.

You learn not to repeat their mistake of unbelief, Hebrews 3.

😕 Camping seems to think God likes to gloat.
💡 God doesn't.
👿 Camping cuts out the Jews and grafts all their promises onto his garbled idea of believers.
💡 God doesn't.
😱 Camping thinks church is a building,
💡 but God says it's the Body of Christ (search on 'church' in the singular, and Body).
😈 Camping thinks you're holy if you keep doubting your salvation, huffing and puffing to be 'worthy' of it.
💡 God says Christ already FOREVER SANCTIFIED you on the Cross, Romans 5-8, Hebrews 10.
👿 Camping thinks Church, therefore, takes OVER Israel.
💡 God says Church has its own 'better' covenant, theme of the Book of Hebrews.
😡Camping claims that Rapture is followed by some five-month period and then the End of the World.
😱 God says Church is Resurrected at Rapture, 7 years prior to Ezekiel 37's Second Advent, Heb 11:39-40.
💡 After which, comes 1000 years during which we rule with Him, Rev 1:6, 5:10, 1Cor4:8 (sarcastic), end Romans 5, Revelation 20:1-10.

⚠️ There's a big difference between what Camping says, therefore -- and what God says in His Word. ⚠️

Then there's this problem: five months later in the Flood Account, means..? Nothing. No parallel. The Ark comes to rest on Arrarat, Genesis 8:4. The world is still a bathtub. So that's not the right analogous date to pick for the end of the world. It should have been, when Noah entered. The SECOND end of the end shouldn't be five months later, if the parallel were to Noah.

Of course, Camping conveniently drops parallelism when it suits him. For the 'five months', Camping instead goes quote-mining to Revelation 9, which has nothing to do with the Ark, salvation, Rapture, or anything else. But it's 'five months'. In fact, it's the ONLY place in Scripture with a definite beginning and ending of five months. So Camping WENT LOOKING FOR IT, to justify his numbers.

So let's do that, too: Revelation 9 says what?
👿 Satan is given a key to a bottomless pit,
👿 out from which come (in two stages) a total of 200 million DEMONS who are, using the Greek drama vocabulary of the day, Gorgeous (the hair), and flashy (the breastplate, etc) and SWARMING (locust analogy)..
👿 to TORTURE the unbelievers, having been prohibited by God to KILL them,
👿 FOR FIVE MONTHS.

Hmmm.
😲 Camping claims these DEMONS who SATAN releases, coming up from a smoky JAIL, are instead, raptured believers.

So, then: God gives SATAN the key to a bottomless pit where RAPTURED BELIEVERS are in JAIL, to let them out so they can torture unbelievers? Does that make sense?

Of course not. So notice: whenever SATAN wants to advertise someone under his power, he makes it SLAPSTICK. Everything about Camping's doctrines is Islamic-slapstick:

😈 Christ didn't really die on the Cross, Koran Sura 4.157; Koran, not Bible. Camping maintains a mysterious death of Christ 'before the foundation of the world', since he can't read the Greek of Revelation 13:8. Greek says 'written..before the foundation', it's a TEMPORAL CLAUSE. So Camping maintains that the actual Cross was only a 'demonstration'. That's what Sura 4.157 says: It was just a SHOW.

😈 Camping says you can't know for sure if you're saved (i.e., in ihgwsm.pdf page 18, 5th para.); just like Muhammed said in the Koran (refrain). Koran, not Bible. Bible says the moment you believe, you're forever saved, Acts 16:31, John 3:16, with Hebrews 10:10-14 explaining why.
😈 "God didn't open eyes". Oh, like Satan's taunt in Genesis 3, or like the Koran says (refrain): "Allah is the best deceiver".

😈 God REMOVES THE JEWS FROM HISTORY. That's the central theme of the Koran, with catchphrases like how Jews will be hiding behind trees, asking the 'believer' to kill them. Everything in Islam is about the Muslims REPLACING the Jews: replacing their text (claim Bible is corrupt), replacing their inheritance (viz., Dome of the Rock is EXACTLY where the Holy of Holies once was, over the SAME ROCK as David was given to buy at end of 2Samuel). And of course, the idea is to take over all the LAND belonging to Israel, a battle going on in our nightly news.

😈 Yeah. Per Camping, God loves to make ETERNAL promises to the Jews but instead give those promises to others; God loves to keep 'believers' in the dark, torture people; even hires raptured believers he put in a JAIL UNDER THE EARTH, lol. 😈

Ooops.

Moreover, Noah doesn't leave the boat until a year later, Genesis 8:14. Ooops. So October 21 is also wrong for that reason, too. Watch: one of Camping's minions will notice his gaffe and announce a 'new' delay beyond October 21, to the FOLLOWING 'May 21', bet you money. Calling it a new revelation from God, of course. 😁 😳 😳 😳

As of this post, Camping still maintains the October 21 date, and has since changed the character of the May 21 event to 'spiritual' (meaning, no one experienced it).

The first thread reply here already demonstrated that since he's not using the NOAHIC calendar to make his prediction, but instead a current Jewish lunar calendar, he's way off. Since the latter is based on the Seder Olam Rabbah -- about 346 years are cut out. Since the modern calendar is also lunar, nearly a year of days are cut out, too. So even with solar adjustments, what is qara shem'd '17 Iyyar' now, can't be.

That 'year' difference ends up shortening the shortfall, heh. For there is a recurring CYCLE of months and equinoxes. So the date on the Noahic calendar should have been ten days later, May 31. But the point is, Camping's calculation is WRONG. And he didn't know. So NO Spirit is in him, Deut 18:20, Jer 28:15-17, 29:31-32. Scary stuff!

Moreover, the '7000 years' which is indeed a concept in Judaism, is NOT measured from the Flood, but from CREATION (or more originally, the Fall). It runs until history ends. It doesn't apply to Church, because Church was never in prophecy, to start with. Christ INVENTED Church in Matt16:18. We have no time limits.

The only Promise Time remaining, is the Trib plus the years owed Messiah. Jews today calculate the latter as 2000 years, trying to even up the books with the previous two allotments of 2000 (really 2100). But it's just a guess (and a wrong one), to account for the 'common era'.

By contrast, Camping essentially cuts out the last 1050 years of history referenced in Moses' Psalm 90 (first 84 syllables, ending with the famous Day=1000 years). Psalm 90 is the basis for the 7000 years in Judaism (accounted wrongly since at least Rambam, in 50's, since the Psalm is 350 syllables).

In short, Camping is totally ignorant of the origin of the INTERPRETATION for 7000 years. And he doesn't understand that the last 1050, is promised to CHRIST.

So what other 7000 years must Camping be using? Well, 2Enoch, a slapstick satire on the Bible -- obviously not Canon -- makes bizarre calendar references in its Chapters 16 and 33, using the 7000 years as if from creation to world's end. But that too, incorporates the Jews. Camping, if he used it, cut out the Jews.

Or maybe he really got it from the slapstick Book of Jubilees, another Kabbalah favorite -- iii.17, subtitle 'Paradise and Fall', which says that Satan came at the end of seven years, on the seventeenth day of the second month, to tempt the woman. You know what that temptation was, don't you? That if she ate the magical fruit, HER EYES WOULD BE OPENED. Sound familiar?

Not, Bible. But then, nothing in his calculations is really from Bible, either, because nowhere IN the Bible is there anything about 7000 years. That entire idea is only extra-Biblical.

In his rapture-proof.pdf, he CLAIMS he's using 2Pet3:8's quotation of Psalm 90:4, and then matches that to the seven-day warning God gave to Noah in Genesis 7:4 (also verse 10). So like so many other nutters, he multiplies the days by the 1000, to get his 7000.

Not noticing, that Bible NEVER EVER uses Psalm 90:4 in any other context but ONE Day: the Day of the Lord.

That's how Peter uses it, as indeed every other reference pan-Bible.

😁 There is absolutely NOTHING in Scripture to support a 'days x 1000' calculation. For Psalm 90 is a timeline from Eternity past through TO the Millennium. ONE Millennium: Christ's. The 1000 years, IS the Millennium. Promised to the Jews via their Savior, the Son of David, Jesus the Christ.

We Church will be co-ruling the Gentile nations at that time, Revelation 1:6, 5:10. Camping doesn't recognize the connection. He's too busy cutting out Christ and the Jews!

Again, Camping can't read Hebrew, and it's only in the Hebrew, that you know what Moses really says. Since I can read Hebrew, I made videos about Psalm 90.

It's not hard to follow, though there are dozens of videos to watch. You don't actually have to know Hebrew to watch me trace out the meaning.

Christendom doesn't even know about Jewish Dispensationalism, which is based ON Psalm 90. They think that Dispensationalism was an invention of the 19th century. Wrongo. It's in the Bible, and this is the ORIGIN of the Millennium -- TIME PROMISE TO MESSIAH HIMSELF.

So Peter knew about it: that's why 2Peter 3:8 reads as it does, a RAPTURE verse to remind us that the Millennium is still YET TO COME.

Thus Camping's entire timeline is anti-Biblical: for Bible NEVER cuts out CHRIST, never cuts out the Jews. For, they are the INHERITANCE of Christ (as are we), Isaiah 53:10-12. We'd not even EXIST if the Jews didn't reject Him. For Millennium was supposed to start in the FIFTH 1050 from Adam (4200 from his fall), and then end. Meaning, Time was supposed to end in 1144AD (=94AD+1050).

Um, it's long past that, now. So like Paul says in Romans 11, WE ARE HERE due to Jewish rejection. Let's not get fat-headed. Or, jealous. We have our own 'deal', under the King of Kings, to CO-RULE with Him in the Millennium. Israel doesn't have that. But Time is owed Messiah, and He is Ruler of the World over them, so...

70% Bible text is devoted to them; Deut 32:8 says all time is based on them, and Hebrews 1:1-3 upgrades that to say all time is based on their Jewish head, CHRIST.

So Camping cuts out Christ, to whom the Millennium is promised, main theme of Revelation. So by his own definition of 'false prophet', he is one.

You could just stop reading now, if you want. Camping's 7000-year assumption is flat wrong by any standard.

(Nerd Note: Bible accounts 5250 years as the scheduled end of Time in Psalm 90, which employs 70-year sabbatical accounting, not Jubilee metrics. But that point was referenced in the first Reply of this thread. Church's insertion ends up extending time, and for no set amount of time, Eph1:10, many other verses. See LvS4b.htm for a list of verses -- search on 'catalog' when you load the page.)

8. Bible's 'yalad' proves Camping, FRAUD

So too, if Camping's allocation of 'sons' in Genesis 5 and 11 is wrong, then all his dates are wrong, even if he didn't use the 7000-year idea. For if 'qara shem' and 'yalad' demonstrate direct son of the sire named, then there are no intervening UNNAMED 'fathers'. Whoops.

9. Moses' lineage proves Camping, Fraud

Camping applies his God-is-a-Black-Widow-Spider to the genealogy of Moses, to make Camping's numbers look right. So let's look at what Bible says, versus Camping.

God 'bumped' Kohath ahead of his brothers, though DISINHERITING Levi's sons, due to the Shechem massacre (Genesis 34, 49:7). This is why Levi's sons became the priestly tribe. Clever play on words, when you know the story and understand what 'circumcise' means in Mosaic Law. Punishment, turned to blessing. See MisTrans.htm#Jochebed for details.

People have long been confused about the Levitical line, for the same reason they are confused about Matthew 1's versus Luke 3's genealogies. Why? Because God uses different accountings, each one precise: there are biological accountings (Matthew), and inheritance accountings (Luke) . They are not the same.

So here's a quick summary of the import, re Levi, which is precedental for how God 'bumps' the primogeniture, to Christ Himself.

God does this bumping, to honor someone with faith. Because, the ultimate inheritance is always based ON faith, theme of Genesis 15, Romans 4-5, 9, all of Hebrews, etc.

Moses had the faith. Israel was spared due to his faith (and prayer), i.e., Numbers 14. Moses didn't want to be God's Mouthpiece, so Aaron his brother, would get that office (Exo4:14). To provide it, however, Aaron's FAMILY would have to get the right of primogeniture. So, God just bumped up Aaron's father.

1. ALL Levi's sons were disinherited due to Levi disinheriting (by revenge killing) all the sons of Shechem.
2. So the BENEFICIARY inheritance rights go through the daughters of Levi (Num27:8, 36:8 ).
3. For CONSISTENCY, lineages for primogeniture are still listed by MALE NAMES.
4. So the DAUGHTERS' rights are still listed in the MALE NAME of either their fathers, or (if married) their husbands.


5. EXODUS 6:20 and Num26:59 (see LXX and BHS, English is awful) -- Amram was Moses and Aaron's father; but Amram is a 'son of Kohath' son of Levi, through Amram's MOTHER. In short, Amram's mother's father, was Kohath. Amram's father, is unnamed. (LXX of Exo 6:20 says the couple were also cousins through their unnamed therefore non-Levite fathers.)


6. Jewish FAMILY line goes through the mother. Amram is thus junior in rank to his wife's MOTHER, who was an actual DAUGHTER of Levi (again, LXX/BHS of Exo 6:20, and Exo2:1, Num26:59).


7. Levi had at least one daughter in his old age, so there was a 'GENERATION SKIP' between his earlier sons, and the daughter.
8. HER LINE: Jochebed is really Amram's cousin on his aunt's side. For his mother was a daughter of Kohath, so Jochebed's mother, was his great-aunt. (Hebrew for great-aunt and aunt is the same, just as we commonly say 'Aunt X' for a great-aunt, in English.)



She wasn't Levi's own daughter. Again, LXX of Exo 6:20 says the couple were also cousins through their unnamed therefore non-Levite fathers. NIV of Num26:59 sorta notices that Jochebed was the daughter of the daughter born to Levi when he was in Egypt.

So too, ignore the slapstick Testament of the Patriarchs, which claims she WAS the daughter of Levi, the alleged writer -- for he also tells you how long he lived! So he's writing to you from heaven? Lots of goofy stuff in that book.



9. Jochebed married Amram, so her INHERITANCE/title has to be listed in her HUSBAND's name, Numbers 36:8.
10. So JOCHEBED's husband Amram, who through his own mother is a 'son of Kohath', results in
11. KOHATH being bumped
12. to the head of the LINE, in the inheritance (not biological-order) LISTINGS.
13. All this, due to MOSES (Exo4:14, again).

So notice: the actual inheritance change is valid: Levi forfeited his own rights, when he took the lives of the male residents at Shechem.

PRINCIPLE: Revenge killing is against the Mosaic Law, Lev19:18, so God makes an example by 'castrating' the rights of the Levites from the Land. Then, grafting them back in as PRIESTS, through Moses The Teacher of That Same Law.

So now primogeniture goes through Jochebed, Levi's grandaughter through one of his youngest daughters.

Again: Genealogies are listed by fathers, not mothers -- even when the line goes THROUGH the mothers. Same practice, as in Luke 3 (which references Mary's line).

So look how clever: Moses is thus fourth-generation including Levi, see Exo 12:40-41 (esp. in LXX). But also, EXCLUDING him, because Amram is really a generation DOWN, given the great difference in age between the sons and the daughter.

See: if you have kids early in life, but then one LATE in life, the grandkids of the early kids, can have an 'aunt' of near-age. See how precise God is? 😀

Just as God promised Abraham would occur, in Genesis 15:13. The year total tallies based on Jacob, and the promise is about Jacob's sons. For it's a post-mortem promise to Abraham, who of course lived long enough to see Jacob reach puberty. (Abraham died at age 175 (Gen 25:7), had Isaac at age 100, and Isaac had the twins at age 60.)

So the slavery promise, doesn't include Jacob. Israel wasn't enslaved until after Jacob died, for Joseph would go on living, Gen 47:28. That's why the total is 430 years, but 400 in slavery: 10 for Joseph, +390 for the 'sons of Israel' (Jacob).

In accounting, when you see similar numbers, you easily can mistake their derivation. The coincidence of the 400 has long confused scholars. Total consecutive time in Egypt was 430 years. But God SUMS UP the slavery time, when He makes the promise to Abraham. Joseph was enslaved between age 17-27, then in jail for 3 years, then made vizier at age 30, as most Christians know. That 10-year period is part of God's accounting for the 400. (Moses uses the 390+10 in his metered dateline of Psalm 90:3, but there's no way to show it in English.)

Amazing how many 'scholars' have been unable to reconcile that, simply because they didn't notice

1. Jochebed is NOT an 'aunt'. (English mistranslation, compare Exo6:18,20 in BHS and LXX. My video on it, is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy9c3MnH7-Y.)
2. Levi's sons were cut off to mirror a judgment for Levi cutting off the sons at Shechem.
3. so the LEGAL RIGHTS change to the daughters, but
4. the biological lineage is also tracked.

So, where Kohath is listed first, it's a legal-rights ranking genealogy.

One more time: Thus God fulfilled the promise to Abraham, and the curse against Levi. Instead of Levi's sons inheriting anything, God passes the inheritance to a DAUGHTER of Levi -- type of the later switch to Mary owing to the Jeconiah curse.

This cutting-out-and-grafting-in practice of God based on faith or failure, is a common theme of the Bible, starting with Cain (grafted out, in favor of Seth), ending with Christ. (Jeconiah grafted out, Mary grafted in through Nathan, David's other royal line.)

Ooops. See what HUGE doctrine on The Inheritance of Faith is learned through seemingly-boring genealogies? See why God is so precise in tracking them? Camping should have learned Bible Hebrew and Greek to avoid this gaffe. Must have cost him countless tortured hours calculating instead, his God-Is-A-Black-Widow timeline. 😲

First rule of hermeneutics is that you compare Scripture with Scripture. Especially, to find out how a word is used. Or, how a genealogy traces, AND WHETHER IT'S A LEGAL LINE being traced (like what Matthew 1 does, leaving out Athaliah's brats) -- or whether it's strictly biological. Camping didn't do that.

So, if he was confused, why didn't he CONSULT THE JEWS? Do you know how big Jews are on genealogies? It's part of their eschatology, to keep up the family tree names, for in the future, Messiah will have a special priesthood, and they have to know who those sons will be!

But Camping didn't do that, either. Because to him, there is no future for Israel. To Camping, it's a Rapture which No Bible Contains, followed by a weird five months No Verse calls the Tribulation, and then End. Even MESSIAH is cut out, doesn't get His Promised 1000 years. Sheesh. Anti-semitism. Whether Silent and Subsconsious, or loud and obnoxious, clouds Bible reading competence. And makes for some very weird math.

Anti-semitism is what shows up here. Doesn't mean the person being anti-semitic, recognizes it. Any time Israel's future role in history is truncated, denied, belittled, or even EQUATED, you're looking at anti-semitism. If you love Christ, you love the Jews. Period. So one's attitude toward the Jews, reflects one's attitude toward Christ Himself.

Christians are generally anti-semitic. That's reflected in preterism, Replacement theology, the many sects trying to claim they 'inherit' something that the Jews 'lost', i.e., claiming they are the 'lost tribes of Israel', etc. ad nauseum. The common myth that the Jews are running banks, the world, politics, are rich, etc. -- all these reflect anti-semitism. Weak or strong, hostile or dismissive, what you think of the Jews is what you REALLY think of Christ.

Camping doesn't think well of Christ. It shows, in his abuse of Scripture. Which, he uses to cut OUT Christ from the future, as well as the Jews.

Think about it.

10. Bible's 'qara shem' proves Camping, Fraud

Now the finale. 10=Completion of TIME, Ephesians 1:10 (how apt); therefore, the completion of this post. Doubled-5's, God has REDEEMED via His Double-Natured Son, Isaiah 52:13-15! God's REAL factors for time, shown pan-Bible in every date-number and in Bible Meter (Hebrew or Greek), 7*5*2!

So, let's see how God redeems His Word versus Camping's abuse.

Not only is yalad always used for direct son unless otherwise EXPLICITLY indicated in the same verse, but the vaunted 'qara shem' expression is used in the same verses.

So using yalad does not contradistinguish someone as a descendant, nor does qara shem contradistinguish someone only as a son.

For 'qara shem' instead stresses something ELSE -- MEANING. Meaning of the Name.

You probably get frustrated with Bible names. Sadly, your typical Bible only transliterates the name and in an unpronounceable manner. So you don't know how WITTY the name is. Example: Adam=Earthman. Noah=Rest. Enoch=Dedicated. Jared=Descend. All the priestly courses have names of extreme value and deft wit. But you can't know what they are, from most translations. So of course the begats are boring. But try this, with the names translated instead of transliterated:

Earthman fathered Appointed, who fathered Humbleman, who fathered Nester, who fathered Praise, who fathered Descent, who fathered Dedicated, who fathered FLOOD-HAPPENS-WHEN- HE-DIES: that's Methusaleh (Methu+selah).

See what you know now? You know the character of the people and the times.

The purpose of the so-called 'qara shem' phrase is to tell you the CHARACTER of either the person specially named, or the TIME in which he lives. To stress it. But of course, all you really need is just the name, as in the italicized list, above. So when God slows down to make a whole verse out of the name, that matters even more.

Think: Seth=Appointed. Appointed to what? TO CARRY THE NAME. The name of who? MESSIAH. In other words, each of the listed names in the Genesis 5 roster, was someone who had the burden of knowing his descendant would be the one to save him from his sins.

And of course, that made these guys a kind of royal line, so guess what? They were attacked. Relentlessly. All that, you can learn from the names.

So notice: 'qara shem' tells you NOTHING about the relationship between the callER, and the recipient. You call something a name. You call your spouse on the phone (same verb, qara). You name your car. So the RELATIONSHIP between you and what you name, has to be spelled out in the context, for it doesn't necessarily mean you are the 'father' of it.

Duh: having authority, right, privilege or just plain fun of naming, does NOT mean you 'fathered' what you named!

Bible contradicts Camping, so his timeline is bogus. For ➡️ 'yalad' is definitive for direct son UNLESS qualified by other words to show descendants; as we saw in the download for #8, and
➡️ 'qara shem' NEEDS text to tell you if it's a fathering, since the expression is GENERIC, as we just saw above.
➡️ Camping's 7000 year idea is in the OCCULT, like Kabbalah Book of Jubilees and Book of Enoch (in 2 Enoch) -- but the idea is nowhere in Bible. Nor is there anywhere in Bible a construction where more than one day is multiplied by 1000 years.

💡 For just as there is only One Lord, in Bible there is only ONE Day that is 1000 years: The Day of the Lord.
💡 When He Comes Back to Earth, He Does NOT Destroy it, but Makes it a Paradise, Ezekiel 40 through the end of the book (Chapter 40 is on the Millennial Temple which God builds); Isaiah 61 and following, many other passages. Pretty much every OT passage promising Israel something 'forever' refers to this future time, like Isaiah 9, Jeremiah 31:31-34, etc. Lots of promises.
💡 And, then He Rules that Earth for 1000 (really 1050) years, Revelation 5:10, 20:1-10.
💡 THEN comes the End of the World, Rev 21:1. Not, before.

Camping doesn't read Bible. He makes up stuff as suits his private agenda, then slaps on God's Name or numbers. This, to seem holy; he expects no one to catch him. But God did. For by his own definition -- and God's, Deut 18:20, Jer 28:15-17, 29:31-32 -- Camping is a FALSE PROPHET. Avoid him, 2Tim3:5-7.

PS: If you're interested, Other posts I made in this forum are relevant:

• Qara shem viewtopic.php?p=27643#27643
• Matthew 1's genealogy is misunderstood by Mr. Camping. Qara shem versus Yalad: latter's verses pan-Bible shows that yalad is used of DIRECT SON, unless 'sons' is in the plural. viewtopic.php?p=27610#27610

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brainout | Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:15 am

Through another Youtuber, I was suddenly able to understand Paul's meter construct for Ephesians 1:3-14. At the moment, it appears that Paul's tying back to the HEBREW DATING for the Flood, rather than the LXX.

It's kinda complicated to explain. Basically, Paul's 434-syllable meter is the sum of 364 and 70 to illustrate the fact we are still in the Daniel 9:26c time bubble.

But Paul constructs 91 sevens four times, and a single 70, which is 10 sevens. Well, 91x4 + 10 = 374. That's the number of days Noah was IN the boat (excluding the day he left), in the BHS text.

The point is to say all human history is like being in the Ark. It's a favorite 'pregnancy' theme of Paul's in every book he writes. (Greek 'pleroma' has an etymology of a ship full of people or a woman full of child. It's one of Paul's favorite words, and he's constantly making pregnancy analogies.)

Notice how it's 375 days, not 365 nor 370.

Fortunately, I did use the BHS text two years ago, and so the timeline fitting Paul's meter is here: FloodChrono.doc.

The Greek and English and meter are all explained here, Ephesians1REPARSED.doc. The larger fit of the four-act 'play of history' God shows via meter is Ps90Isa53Dan9Eph1.doc. All these are still in draft, and will take more than a year to finish vetting.

But the meanwhile, it's an alternative to the revision made in the last few weeks favoring the LXX. I put the Noahic Flood Precedence video on 'private', pending further investigation.

What a hoot, if the BHS turns out to be right after all, since everyone and his brother mis-counts it (the Midrash calls it one year, Philo exactly one year using LXX, etc).

See: Bible has all the information you need IN it. Just requires more digging. Bible is ALWAYS RIGHT.

Now I really am going for the summer, and won't come back unless I am caused to find some mistake I made in the posts.

Wish y'all the best!

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LAMBSFURY | Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:14 am

You said
"430 years, to the day Jacob entered the Land, Exodus 12:40-41."

Exodus 12:40-41 does not mention the word "Jacob" and does not say the 430 years began when "Jacob" entered the land...

That is what you have added to the verse, as Camping does...

Joseph was a true "children of Israel" and he was in Egypt - Exodus 1:5, and suffered affliction - Psalm 105:17-18, Acts 7:9-10, long before Jacob entered Egypt.

God confirms the 430 years began with Abraham - Galatians 3:16-18

You worship a fictional calendar...

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brainout | Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:20 am

Lambsfury, you are infuriating. "Israel" is Jacob's ADOPTED BY GOD NAME, the name God uses when Jacob is IN FELLOWSHIP.

Honestly, at times your posts are brilliant, and at times stupid.

Just so you know, I just vetted Paul's meter in Eph1:3-14 again to see if he was supporting the BHS text for the Flood, or the LXX.

He's supporting the LXX. So be happy with that. I know I am, else my last three weeks would have been a complete waste.

And now, I can FINALLY go do something in real life.

Bye.

SeekandFind | Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:43 am

One last thought. Camping says God uses Solar years in the Old Testament. However when coming up with 7000 years from the flood Camping references the Hebrew Calendar for the date. Doesn't seem to add up. Also since Noah is the patriarch wouldn't the days be reflected in Noah's years (ie from his birth and not reflected on to a Hebrew calendar)? Since we do not know the date of Noah's birth we don't know what specific day he entered the arc. I'm sure our buddy HC will come up with some long rambling answer that ends with "Thus we can conclude 2011 April 21st is exactly 7000 days from when Noah entered the Arc."

I've called twice and once he said only God can deceive a believer (why would God deceive a bliever?). On the next call he rambled on and on about Luke 3:37&38 and never answered my question. Just stated, "My calendar is accurate."

His reference to Dr. Otero is another lie. How many lies are you willing to put up with? Again, if HC were teaching at my church I would have left YEARS ago. Good luck with all of his garbage. Please take it out after October 21st.

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Anti-Cult | Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:24 pm

If Camping was teaching this stuff at any ANY church, he would have been thrown out.

Oh wait, that already happened 😂

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brainout | Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:29 pm

I've spent the last week on the topic of how Camping picked a lunar calendar and then just backed into all his numbers, how the SOLAR calendar exposes all that.

Thread title here is Camping Timeline Gaffes. I'm still working on the last post in it, currently reading the laughable Book of Jubilees for clues to Camping's weird hermeneutics.

He uses Kabbalah. The 17 and 23 are NOT in Bible but ARE in the OCCULT. Hence my going through Book of Jubilees (which is sitting on my laptop right now, while I type)

I've never seen anything so crazy in all my life. But easily proven, what a liar or nut he is, via his never-balancing math!

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brainout | Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:33 pm

Camping BACKED INTO THEM to make them look right. That's how he GOT the 17 and the 23, which he borrowed from Kabbalah. 'Camping Timeline Gaffes', first reply post, has details, if you're interested in reading it (in the Timeline section of the Forum index).

I'm done with that post, now. Took me a week, lol.

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brainout | Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:36 pm

Camping factors based on his need to cover up his mistakes since 1988. So his numbers are prophetical of his next mistake. '17' and '23' are significant OCCULT numbers, but have no meaning in Bible; none of his dates tie back to any significant Bible date using GOD's factors. 😀

For God factors instead based on 490, and every unit ties significantly to Bible History both forward and backward. And, each of these is either foretold as a prophecy or coded in the Law, or precedence for the Law.

So these numbers are used by God to DESIGN Time. So their periods are meant to INSTRUCT us, not wow us. So that we can tell falsehoods like Camping's, based not only on principle, but on the ACCOUNTING. God's Accounting ties the CHARACTER of the Time, to the AMOUNT of Time. Thus you can validate whether someone else's accounting, is from God:

7 days/years
Noah sending out dove (thrice)
Jacob serving for Rachel (twice)
Fat and Lean Years (twice=Joseph, in Hebrew)
Passover Week/Booths (twice)
2Sam5 civil war
David's rulership over Hebron only
David's post retirement years
Building 1st Temple
Building 2nd Temple (actual construction time)
Total time in Land pre-rebuild 2nd Temple (thrice)
Tribulation

30 years
David, Joseph, Christ ruler ages
Age when public service begins (i.e., in Numbers 4)

33 years
David, Christ ruler over all Israel periods

40 days/years, TWICE
Marriage age (idea of maturation, i.e., in Genesis 25, 26)
Moses' age when he left Egypt, Exo 7:7 compared to Acts 7:23
Noah's flood (back and front)
Joseph aka 'Twice' as vizier (back and front)
Israel's wandering and Temple in land post-Church (back and front)
David and Solomon ruling period (back and front)

50 years
Jubilee (basis for Millennium, 21 Jubilees)
Pentecost (begins piggybacked on the LAST day of Passover, Numbers 28:26).
Retirement age (i.e., in Numbers 4)

57 days/years TWICE
Noah's Flood (back and front)
Passover to Pentecost
Pentecost to 9th Av
(Temple goes down on 9th Av, TWICE)
#years to end of scheduled Time had Jews accepted Christ
Jubilee +Trib
Pentecost and Chanukah (opposite each other)

70 years
Temple Destruction to Restoration
Restoration to Jerusalem Rebuilt

400 years between
Israel's enslavement and Exodus
Exodus and David's Birth

430 years between
Israel's time in Egypt and Exodus
Exodus and when David Crowned King

490 years between
Seth and Enoch's birth
Shem and Isaac's birth
Flood and Jacob's going to Haran
Joseph's enslavement and Exodus
Exodus and 1st Temple Dedication
Exodus and Christ's Crucifixion (490x3)

1000 years between
David's Kingship and Christ's Birth
David's Retirement and Christ's Death
Millennium

2100 years
Adam - Abraham (well, a 54 year credit)
Abraham - Christ (54 year credit 'paid' here)


Church as Body of Christ has no time constraints; so Church Age has not ended, Eph 3:20-21, John 17:17-26 which Camping cannot read, also Hebrews 11:39-40, Rev 4:1 being the Rapture.

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kzaren | Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:04 pm

Those poor Latter_Rainers. They are trying so hard to figure out who is being tormented between May 21 and October 21. Here's what one "deep thinker" has come up with. The ones being under torment are those of us who are still worshiping in our churches. Here's how he explains it on the LR site today:

So it's we church goers being tormented by the TB's! That's quite a theory! Ken

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brainout | Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:46 pm

Okay, so the 'true believers' are released from a PIT by SATAN. 👿

Are 'true believers' really cicadas? It's true that cicadas sound like locusts, and they do live most of their lives, UNDER THE EARTH.

Sura 114 in the Koran says that Allah is Satan.
Koran repeatedly says that you go UNDER THE EARTH when you die. For endless sex and feasting to the screams of those in hell, roasting.

So again I ask: are Camping's 'true believers', cicadas? Per Koran and his interpretation of Revelation 9, it appears so... 😈

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oneeternalgospel | Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:09 pm

not quite:
Say: "I seek refuge with the Lord of mankind;the King of mankind,the True God of mankind, from the mischief of the whispering, elusive prompter who returns again and again, who whispers in the hearts of people;whether he be from the jinn or humans."

(all the major translations come close to this)

Saytanic religions rarely blatantly broadcast it except maybe Mormonism which claims its christ and Satan as brothers (I asked a Mormon "missionary" if he would confirm he believes the doctrine and he affirmed it)

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brainout | Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:33 pm

Dummy, it's in the ARABIC. Do your homework next time. This is so well known, it's even a thread in the Faith Freedom International Forum.

Christian Prince of InvestigateIslam and MuhammedTube has done videos on it in Youtube.

See: talking to you is not worth my time. I only post to you now, to let others know where they can find the information.

BYE.

EDIT: It's been so long that I've posted in FFI that my registration ran out, so I can't search on the posts. The guy who told me first about this meaning in Sura 114 goes by 'Baal' in that forum. I'll have to contact ixolite and see if I can get back into the forum, and then I can come back here and post the thread url.

Meanwhile, just ask any anti-Muslim Arabic speaker you know. The key here is that 'I seek refuge with' also means 'I seek refuge FROM'. Same preposition. Then when it says 'of jinns', the wordplay there means that 'Allah' is 'of jinns'. Again, just consult an Arabic speaker, or go to Christian Prince, Investigate Islam, etc.

Same wordplay is in Sura 113 (same phrase begins both Suras).

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oneeternalgospel | Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:43 am

Oh puleeze the Arabic as understood by Muslims has no ambiguity in Suras 113-114 - the pseudo Jews have Satan as their god as much as Muslims and neither claims god = Satan, your attempt to scandalize the Mormon religion over against the saytanic false Jews whom God specifically says are of "synagogues of Satan" fails because of its false basis. Considering that Muslim's "stone the devil" as part of their pilgrimage etc
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2007/12/200852512585350989.html

and they are not in their minds "stoning God" etc. the ludicrous wickedness of the Zionists as brainout to attempt to "demonize" Muslims over against psuedo Jews becomes savagely clear.

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brainout | Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:35 pm

OH PULEEZE you don't know much about prepositions, and quoting Al-Jazeera isn't going to help you make whatever points you think you're making.

YOU DON'T KNOW THE LANGUAGE. So don't pretend you do.

Why did I respond again? Because others need to see you're inventing stuff, just like Camping.

END.

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oneeternalgospel | Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:11 pm

brain out - Al Jazeera is simply showing the stoning of the devil ritual which is part of Hajj , Muslims recognize a distinction between the devil / Satan and "Allah" , notwithstanding Suras 113 and 114 , therefore , those Suras do not teach that "Allah" = Satan no matter what the moronic sources which you cant even find say - besides the overt "Saytanists" no religion not even the saytanic synagogues of the pseudo Jews claim to worship Satan "actively" which is to say consciously - and BTW I have studied Arabic.

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oneeternalgospel | Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:41 pm

(114:1) Say:I seek refuge with the Lord of mankind; قُلۡ اَعُوۡذُ بِرَبِّ النَّاسِۙ‏ ﴿114:1﴾
(114:2) the King of mankind, مَلِكِ النَّاسِۙ‏ ﴿114:2﴾
(114:3) the True God of mankind, اِلٰهِ النَّاسِۙ‏ ﴿114:3﴾
(114:4) from the mischief of the whispering, elusive prompter who returns again and again, مِنۡ شَرِّ الۡوَسۡوَاسِ  ۙ الۡخَـنَّاسِ ۙ‏ ﴿114:4﴾
(114:5) who whispers in the hearts of people; الَّذِىۡ يُوَسۡوِسُ فِىۡ صُدُوۡرِ النَّاسِۙ‏ ﴿114:5﴾
(114:6) whether he be from the jinn or humans. مِنَ الۡجِنَّةِ وَالنَّاسِ
Sura 114
the whispers whether from the jinn or humans , "Allah" is neither of the jinn or humans but provides refuge from the whispers of both sources but scripture says of the pseudo Jews , those who follow the Christ less religion of so called Judaism
Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.

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brainout | Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:49 pm

TO EVERYONE ELSE -- I don't respond to anti-semites, like virulent oneeternalgospel here.

If you want to know what Sura 114 says in its deliberately-ambiguous prepositions, just go to MirroringTruth on Youtube, or someone like him, and ask for the relevant videos made by InvestigateIslam aka Christian Prince. That guy is an Egyptian who shows the Koran in Arabic, in videos.

EDIT: here's my first post where I learned from 'Baal' that Sura 114's ending had the dual-entendre meaning of Satan being the author of the Koran. It's not the last Forum post on the topic; but at least you can check on what I posted, besides going to Christian Prince:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=49818 Search on 'hello brainout' when you load the page, to go straight to his quote.

Zilam replies to it: http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=49818&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45. Again, search on 'hello brainout' when you load the page, to go straight to his quote.

Notice how Baal, who reads Arabic, got the idea FROM THE TEXT, but later concluded that human authors of the text put that twist in there.

Then there's this confirming post, from both Baal and Apple Pie (he and I argued a lot, but this is how I met him in the forum): http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=49867&view=next&sid=17e29e1d333c6eff4904600bd4c64406 Search on 'Hey manta', to read Baal's post; for Apple Pie's, search on 'plea'.

Hebrew prepositions also allow such dual-entendres. Arabic is a cousin language, so it's not hard to read, once you get past the difference in letters.

My point is that THE TEXT can be read that way. Longer discussions on this topic are elsewhere in the Faith Freedom Forum, but I have to figure out the keywords to find them in searching, as the posts are 4 years old.

SeekandFind | Tue May 24, 2011 10:07 pm

In Genesis chapter 5:8-14 we read, "And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:

And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
And Cainan lived seventy years and begat Mahalaleel:
And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.
And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:
And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:"

I know the patriarch theory by Camping but how does he explain away the Bible telling us the each Patriarch lived so many years after his descendent (it does not state he dies the year his descendant was born)? Has any one heard him explain this or read this in one of his books?

Thanks.

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tonks | Tue May 24, 2011 10:33 pm

One reason Camping gives is that "calls his name" is not present.
And then he goes to explain that the genealogy of Luke 3:35-36 lists a different man named Cainan(who lived many years after the Cainan of Gen 5) was in the blood line of Arphaxad: "..Sala, which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad".
With the insertion of the name Cainan in Luke 3 clarifies that Sala was not an immediate son of Arphaxad.
Therefore, we have additional evidence which assures us that the giving of the age of Enos when he begat Cainan ("Enos lived ninety years and begat Cainan") does not indicate in any way that Cainan was an immediate son of Enos.
Time Has An End, page 90
Does that help at all?

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brainout | Tue May 24, 2011 10:46 pm

Problem is, there's only ONE Cainan in Luke 3. Someone inserted a second one, to balance to the LXX error of stating two Cainan's. Apparently Camping is unfamiliar with the LXX, and the fact that the real Luke 3 in Greek (Beza's copy) doesn't have two Cainans.

Christ is the 77th son from Adam. That's the point of the verse, for Luke is basing it on the 77 syllables in Hebrew from Isaiah 53, which really starts in Isaiah 52:13 (our English Bibles messed up the chapter division).

Matthew 1 had played on the first 42 syllables, so left out Athaliah's kids (as a snub). Luke wraps his Gospel around Matthew, therefore chose the 490 (77, 7x7, 70x7) rhetorical style. Sevening is a rhetorical style of Bible especially in prophetic verses, to make them easy to orally remember. Number of Promise. (Sheba = seven = promise, in Hebrew.)

David was 77 when he died, not 70, 1Kings 1:1-2:10 covers a 7 year period, then the three years after David died is covered through Chapter 5's end. So 1Kings 6:1 tells you David would have been 80 years old when Temple construction began. That's why Isaiah uses 77 syllables, to play on David's death age, for Isaiah meters Chapter 53 on the theme of First David to Last David. And the syllables end at 37AD, just as the timeline in Daniel will end, for Daniel meters his prayer based on Isaiah's meter, and God explicitly therefore uses the 490 as Daniel and Isaiah and Psalm 90 used, to answer Daniel.

490 is the basic meter system of believers-buying-time from Adam's fall forward.. That's why Adam's son Seth and Enoch are 490 years apart (one born early in his father's birthday year and one born late). Son as a promise that the time was met, famously known to us all via Abraham's son Isaac (born 490 years after Shem).

All this, Camping didn't know. No excuse for that.

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tonks | Tue May 24, 2011 11:07 pm

Seems you're right.

John Gill's commentary on Luke 3
"Ver. 36. Which was the son of Cainan, … This Cainan is not mentioned by Moses in Ge 11:12 nor has he ever appeared in any Hebrew copy of the Old Testament, nor in the Samaritan version, nor in the Targum; nor is he mentioned by Josephus, nor in 1Ch 1:24 where the genealogy is repeated; nor is it in Beza’s most ancient Greek copy of Luke: it indeed stands in the present copies of the Septuagint, but was not originally there; and therefore could not be taken by Luke from thence, but seems to be owing to some early negligent transcriber of Luke’s Gospel, and since put into the Septuagint to give it authority: I say “early”, because it is in many Greek copies, and in the Vulgate Latin, and all the Oriental versions, even in the Syriac, the oldest of them; but ought not to stand neither in the text, nor in any version: for certain it is, there never was such a Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, for Salah was his son; and with him the next words should be connected.’

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brainout | Wed May 25, 2011 12:17 am

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. It's called the 'Second Cainan' problem in TC.*

I'm not sure what Codex name is given to Beza's copy. I keep on wanting to say 'D', but at 3:30 am, don't bet on it. 😀

*'TC' means 'textual criticism', the art-science of validating what words in manuscripts, were really written by the original Bible writers.

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tonks | Wed May 25, 2011 12:25 am

Not sure if this helps but the article I read said the following:
"In fact, the earliest known extant copy of Luke, the 102-page (originally 144) papyrus codex of the Bodmer Collection labeled P75 (dated between AD 175 and 22510), omits the extra Cainan. Thus the reading in Luke 3:36 cannot be shown to exist before AD 220.’"

http://creation.com/cainan-can-you-explain-the-difference-between-luke-336-and-genesis-1112

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SeekandFind | Wed May 25, 2011 4:51 am

Yes but Camping adds the agaes of Enos to Cainan to Mahaleel to Jared even though Gen. 5 states each lived so many years after they begat the next. How can he add them up when the Bible shows their ages overlapped. It doesn't matter if they are great great grandsons if they were born when their forefather was still alive. The verses I enlarged are the ones stating how much longer the forefather lived after the birth of their descendant.

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JimB | Wed May 25, 2011 5:32 am

This has been talked about for over 3 years on this forum.

There is no where in the Bible that say that anyone was born the year someone else died, not in Egypt, and not in Genesis 5 and 11.

Look through the older posts in "Bible Timeline" from myself (JimB) and Lambsfury (Tom) and Marc.

If our English Bible texts are accurate and the Bible can be trusted for the age of the Earth, then the earth is about 6000 years old, and thd flood was 1656 years after Creation.

Harold was trying to force the Bible into agreeing with his understanding of scientific and secular information, and twisted it into saying that ony some of the people in Genesis 5 and 11 were born the year someone else died, others were immediate.

There is no "clue phrase" "called his name" for Noah and his sons, and Terah and his sons, but we know they were immediate sons, so Harold's rule of lack of this phrase proves NOT an immediate son, is wrong.

Harold' whole Bible Calendar is off by several thousand years.

2011 is NOT 7000 years from the flood.

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SeekandFind | Wed May 25, 2011 5:47 am

JimB you have listened to Camping for a long time. How does he explain away the way Gen. 5 is written. That Enos lived so many years after he begat Cainan? It clearly states that Enos was alive when Cainan was born. Does Camping ever explain away this verse (and others just like it)?

Will read the posts later today.

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LAMBSFURY | Wed May 25, 2011 6:54 am

Seekandfind

Camping does explain it
When it says "x begat "y" and "lived after" he begat "y" the "y" is not the person named but a forefather..
So, when it says Methusaleh begat Lamech and "lived after" he begat Lamech, "Lamech" is not Lamech. He is not the person named
That is his blowoff that does not have one ancient witness to its claim...
Keep in mind also that the geneologies of Genesis 5 and 11 were totally different from accounts in the 3rd century BC (Demetrius) in the 1st century AD (Josephus) and the 2nd century AD (Theophilus and Africanus) These chronologers had the longer genealogies, becasue that is what existed in that day. There is "not one" ancient account from this time period that has the current masorete geneologies. Church people will be a little hesitant talking about that, because they feel that God preserved his Word, thus His genealogies over the centuries "via the MT text" becasue that is what their confessions say....but the reality is, God "did" preserve His geneologies today via the LXX, as the very same genealogies today and time frames from creation to the flood in the LXX is what is in accounts from 220BC....over 2200 years ago.

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JimB | Wed May 25, 2011 7:42 am

Tom is still a brainwashed former Camping-ite date setter, depart-outer who thinks all churches are apostate, even though he refutes the end of the church age doctrine, so he can disagree with Camping, he still is quite brainwashed by Harold Camping about the churches, and he still has the same Judgemental attitude, and still believes in the heresy of Hyper-Calvinism.

Tom also does not know if he is saved, and is still waiting and hoping and begging God for salvation like Harold Camping taught him

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JimB | Wed May 25, 2011 7:44 am

Go through the older posts, you will have to go back on previous pages, the Bible Timeline has many previous paes.

Harold Camping goes against the clear literal reading of Genesis 5 and 11.

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brainout | Wed May 25, 2011 7:46 am | Date Genesis 5 from Adam's fall not initial creation

True, but don't date Genesis 5 from initial creation, but rather date from Adam's Fall. Genesis 3:17, that's when God started to NUMBER days.

Genesis 1:1, initial creation. Genesis 1:2, something happened and the lights went out. Genesis 1:3, lights restored. The time period for Gen1:2 is not stated. Coulda been a short time, or a long one, neither necessarily agreeing with either the YEC or the evolutionist nutters.

I did a playlist showing the above paragraph's textual and grammatical validity directly from the Hebrew, in BibleWorks: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?p=PLAB5BE9F40D2918FB. Episode 8 focuses on the timeline in Genesis 5.

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brainout | Wed May 25, 2011 7:49 am

It is a great help, thanks! I couldn't remember what was the name of the earliest manuscript. 😈

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brainout | Wed May 25, 2011 7:55 am

No, the LXX was tampered with. Someone had a listing of the Babylonian kings and was trying to 'amend' the LXX to fit them. It's a very well known thing. The poor guy who tried to do this, wasn't even good at it. He subtracts 100 years, then tries to add it back; subtracts 60, then tries to add it back. He gets tired with all the adding and subtracting, and then just quits.

It's an obvious error any amateur trying to 'cook the books' would make.

Some of the LXX is validly 3rd century BC, and is often quoted in the NT. Some of it is tampering made by people around the same time. Some of it is later ADDED, and the text added is goofy (i.e., parts of the LXX version of Esther). If you can read the Greek it's not a big deal separating the Bible wheat from the wanna-be-bible tares.

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JimB | Wed May 25, 2011 8:01 am

Yes PeterX believes this also, that there was time between some period of disorder before the 6 days of creation. I never heard of this theory before.

But I guess we can say that if our English translations and manuscripts are accurate, and we trust the Bible as historically accurate, that it is about 6000 years from the 6 days of creation, and Adam.

Mr Camping came up with a false "calendar patriarch' theory to stretch the earth's age to 13,000 years.

This theory is false, and his been proven wrong many times on this forum.

The earth is NOT 13,000 years old.

2011 is NOT 7000 years from the flood.

The world will NOT end anytime in 2011.

There are prophecies yet to be fulfilled, and there is NOT enough time in 2011 to have all of these prophecies fullfilled.

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LAMBSFURY | Wed May 25, 2011 8:03 am

You don't know what you are talking about..

As I said, there is NOT ONE, witness to the MT genealogies before the 4th century AD. NOT ONE.

The masorete genealogies were shortened for a very devious reason....to show that Christ is not the Second Adam. See link below:

http://www.setterfield.org/Septuagint_comments.html#genealogy

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brainout | Wed May 25, 2011 8:15 am | Begat in Hebrew proves direct SON, not generation-skipping

Just a note on what 'begat' means. Our English translation is terrible. Hebrew word for 'begat' is yalad, and it means your semen produced a kid. Not, a grandkid or a great-grand kid. A SON or daughter.

To denote generation skipping, you have different expressions, like when it says 'sons of Adam', that's a reference to the head progenitor. Usually that phrase is mistranslated 'sons of men', and most egregiously, 'son of man', so you think Christ is just one of many, versus the way He uses it, from Daniel 7:13 exclusively.

Greek word is gennaw and it means to SIRE. Again, only direct. Again, different expressions are used to indicate subsequent generations.

Apparently that Hebrew and Greek 35-volume lexicon Camping claimed he got with Dr. Otero for such a bargain price, is a lexicon he never read. My guess is, he referred to Big Kittel, which you can get at Logos (separately from its other software). Or, you can buy it hardback from Amazon, but I don't recall if it is now 35 volumes. The hardback is more expensive, versus the Logos software, which I bought for $200.

There are other lexicons of that length, but not many. I don't recall all the names, my brain is out this morning. 🙄

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JimB | Wed May 25, 2011 8:24 am

There are places that begat is used, and it does not mean an immediate son, however in Genesis 5 and 11, the language is clear that they are all immediate sons, because it indicates how many years each father LIVED AFTER HAVING A SON.

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brainout | Wed May 25, 2011 8:29 am | Gap theory (Genesis 1:1 versus 1:2) and Isa45:18-19

Well, on the 'gap' in Genesis 1:2, Bible tells you what it was, in Isaiah 45:18-19. I cover that in the videos. What it was, was the angelic rebellion. Isaiah 14 and Eze28 tie. But Bible doesn't say how long the rebellion lasted. The six days are literal, not metaphorical -- so those trying to say how long claiming metaphorical usage, can't read Hebrew. 'Evenings and mornings' is the Hebrew literal translation in Genesis, and it means 2 consecutive 12-hour periods, so cannot be allegorized.

The Holy Spirit restored the earth at Father's command. The Lord Jesus Christ created it in Genesis 1:1, all in one 'go'. Whether He did that instantaneously or over a longer time, is not stated, but rather just the fact of it.

Evolution is sheer bunk for other reasons, so I'm not trying to 'agree' with science. LOL 100 years ago, we thought it was good to apply leeches, as good medical science!

PS: I will not debate the validity of evolution in this forum or any other place. So any comments I get back trying to debate it with me, will receive no reply. Been there, done that, don't want any more cheap souvenirs of how I wasted time trying to talk sense into evolutionists.

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brainout | Wed May 25, 2011 8:31 am | Begat in Hebrew proves direct SON, not generation-skipping

Agreed on Genesis 5 and 11, etc., but please show me where 'begat' is used to reference someone other than the immediate progeny, please. I find no such reference, but maybe there is one I missed?

EDIT: here are the 'begat' verses in KJV, for a start: Gen. 4:18; 5:3f, 6f, 9f, 12f, 15f, 18f, 21f, 25f, 28, 30, 32; 6:10; 10:8, 13, 15, 24, 26; 11:10ff; 22:23; 25:3, 19; Lev. 25:45; Num. 26:29, 58; Deut. 32:18; Jdg. 11:1; Ruth 4:18ff; 1 Chr. 1:10f, 13, 18, 20, 34; 2:10ff, 18, 20, 22, 36ff, 44, 46; 4:2, 8, 11f, 14; 6:4ff; 7:32; 8:1, 7ff, 11, 32ff, 36f; 9:38ff, 42f; 14:3; 2 Chr. 11:21; 13:21; 24:3; Neh. 12:10f; Prov. 23:22; Jer. 16:3; Dan. 11:6; Zech. 13:3; Matt. 1:2ff; Acts 7:8, 29; Jas. 1:18; 1 Jn. 5:1

None of them are indirect or generation-skipping.

I didn't yet search on all the many Hebrew and Greek expessions.

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JimB | Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 8:41 am

Look at the original Hebrew word for begat in Genesis 5 and 11, and look at all uses of this word in the Old Testament, and see if there are examples where it is not an immediate son, I don't know.

Also Camping uses Matthew 1 Genealogy, where people were missing from the list, when we compare with the Old Testament.

All I know that the language of Genesis 5 and 11 is definitely all immediate sons.

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LAMBSFURY | Wed May 25, 2011 8:54 am

Jim
Camping does not use the LXX..
So how can I be believing everything Camping is?
If you claim to flee "everything" that is identified with Camping, do you also say the MT text?
Because that is the only one Camping endorses..
You can't come to grips that the MT genealogies are "fiction"
God preserved them through the LXX....
2200 years of witnesses confirm
And remember, the 'only' Bible that existed in the Greek world in the early days of Christianity was the LXX
Whether you like it or not'
And remember....Camping has "received and believed" as you define it, and he is no more saved than the muslims
Sorry..

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brainout | Wed May 25, 2011 9:07 am | Matthew 1 genealogy plays on Isaiah 52:13-14's Hebrew meter, and link to all the 'begat' verses in Bible proving no generation-skipping

Latest EDIT: updated link on this same topic, is here: viewtopic.php?p=28044#28044

Previous EDIT: Camping doesn't understand the Matt1 genealogy. Neither do most 'scholars'. Matthew composed his genealogy to fit Isaiah 53's meter. Isaiah 52:13 begins that chapter, in Hebrew (samex marker after verse 12). Verses 13 and 14 are 42 syllables, and literally changed my life. I did videos on Isaiah 53's meter, here: b-out Isaiah 53 Meter Hypotheses The second and third videos show the pattern. The rest of the videos document how I learned of it by mistake (when trying to find out if Moeller's Isaiah scroll was right, really missing some words in Chapter 53).

Point is, Matthew played off the 14's which is a distinguishing feature of Psalm 90, warning of the 14-year time overbudget Israel would run by the time of Messiah, which is why there IS a Tribulation period. Moses wrote Psalm 90. Isaiah 53 updates it. Matthew 1 thus shows how the warning nonetheless resulted in Messiah being born on time, just as Isaiah 52:13-14 (God's decree of Christ), predicted. That section is 42 syllables, 3x14. Luke 3 thus adds Isaiah 52:15, which covers the goyim, so runs 77 syllables by its end, which is David's age at death.

So Matthew 1 leaves out Athaliah's sons, as you can see if you tally up who the sons were, and who Matthew leaves out. It's a snub on her. Quick tally of Judah's kings is here, starting in row 110: GeneYrs.xls. The BC dates were taken from the EDITORS' insertion of a kings chart in my Zondervan NASB Bible; I've not yet had time to vet them. Not all the dates there align with Bible.

So Camping didn't do his Bible homework, which even this brainout can do.

It will take a whole weekend to look up all the idioms, for yalad in Hebrew and gennaw in Greek are not the only ways 'begat' is used. Bear in mind, though, that the idioms are more flexible, so don't prove anything, since as you so rightly said, in Genesis rosters, those idioms are NOT used.

So here's an immediate search in BibleWorks for all the morphologies of just yalad, again proving the point that Genesis rosters do not skip any generations:

All morphologies of yalad: Gen. 3:16; 4:1f, 17f, 20, 22f, 25f; 5:3f, 6f, 9f, 12f, 15f, 18f, 21f, 25f, 28, 30, 32; 6:1, 4, 10; 10:1, 8, 13, 15, 21, 24ff; 11:10ff; 16:1f, 11, 15f; 17:17, 19ff; 18:13; 19:37f; 20:17; 21:2f, 5, 7ff, 14ff; 22:20, 23f; 24:15, 24, 36, 47; 25:2f, 12, 19, 24, 26; 29:32ff; 30:1, 3, 5, 7, 9f, 12, 17, 19ff, 23, 25f, 39; 31:8, 43; 32:22; 33:1f, 5ff, 13f; 34:1; 35:16f, 26; 36:4f, 12, 14; 37:30; 38:3ff, 27f; 40:20; 41:50; 42:22; 44:20, 27; 46:15, 18, 20, 22, 25, 27; 48:5f; 50:23; Exod. 1:15ff; 2:2f, 6ff, 22; 6:20, 23, 25; 21:4, 22; Lev. 12:2, 5, 7; 22:27; 25:45; Num. 1:18; 11:12; 26:29, 58ff; Deut. 4:25; 15:19; 21:15; 23:8; 25:6; 28:41, 57; 32:18; Jdg. 8:31; 11:1f; 13:2f, 5, 7f, 24; 18:29; Ruth 1:5, 12; 4:12f, 15ff; 1 Sam. 1:2, 20; 2:5, 21; 4:19f; 2 Sam. 3:2, 5; 5:13; 6:23; 11:27; 12:15, 18f, 21f, 24; 14:27; 21:8, 20, 22; 1 Ki. 1:6; 3:17f, 21, 25ff; 11:20; 12:8, 10, 14; 13:2; 14:12; 17:21ff; 2 Ki. 2:24; 4:1, 17f, 26, 34; 19:3; 20:18; 1 Chr. 1:10f, 13, 18ff, 32, 34; 2:3f, 9ff, 17ff, 24, 29, 35ff, 44, 46, 48f; 3:1, 4f; 4:2, 6, 8f, 11f, 14, 18; 6:4ff; 7:14, 16, 18, 21, 23, 32; 8:1, 7ff, 11, 32ff, 36f; 9:38ff, 42f; 14:3f; 20:6, 8; 22:9; 26:6; 2 Chr. 10:8, 10, 14; 11:19ff; 13:21; 24:3; Ezr. 10:1, 3; Neh. 12:10f, 43; Job 1:2; 3:3; 5:7; 11:12; 14:1; 15:7, 14, 35; 21:11; 24:21; 25:4; 38:21, 28f, 41; 39:1ff; Ps. 2:7; 7:14; 22:31; 48:6; 78:6; 87:4ff; 90:2; Prov. 17:17, 21, 25; 23:22, 24f; 27:1; Eccl. 3:2; 4:13ff; 5:14; 6:3; 7:1; Cant. 6:9; 8:5; Isa. 2:6; 7:14; 8:3, 18; 9:6; 11:7; 13:8; 21:3; 23:4; 26:17f; 29:23; 33:11; 37:3; 39:7; 42:14; 45:10; 49:21; 51:18; 54:1; 55:10; 57:4f; 59:4; 65:23; 66:7ff; Jer. 2:27; 6:24; 14:5; 15:9f; 16:3; 17:11; 20:14f; 22:23, 26; 29:6; 30:6; 31:8, 20; 49:24; 50:12, 43; Lam. 4:10; Ezek. 16:4f, 20; 18:10, 14; 23:4, 37; 31:6; 47:22; Dan. 1:4, 10, 13, 15, 17; 11:6; Hos. 1:2f, 6, 8; 2:3; 5:7; 9:11, 16; 13:13; Joel 3:3; Mic. 4:9f; 5:3; Zeph. 2:2; Zech. 8:5; 13:3

Notice that 2 Kings 20:18 is the lone exception to direct bearing, and it's indicated by SONS, plural, and is FUTURE, not past. Let me know if you find other verses, as maybe I read too fast, and missed a reference.

I made an RTF of all 473 verses, converting the verses to KJV so people here can all read them, if desired. How do I post this as an attachment? Meanwhile, it will be uploaded here: YaladVerses.rtf. Allow me some minutes to upload it to my domain.

Very clear difference in structure compared to all those other verses. So the immediate-son meaning of the Genesis roster is reinforced, not contraindicated, by recourse to the usage of yalad in all these other verses AND in the 2 Kings 20:18 reference.

Camping has no hermeneutical basis for his claims. So he's either too dumb to read Bible, or is lying. Sorry, no middle ground, the text is the text. If the Bible is our Standard (and it is), then the Bible refutes his claims. Period.

The gennaw search will take longer, because not all the text in LXX is really Bible, so has to be weeded out. I'll edit this post or post a new one, with the LXX references.

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brainout | Wed May 25, 2011 10:16 am | Refuting Lambsfury' slander against the Masoretic Text

I know your post was to Jim, but I can't let your slander pass. The genealogy is CORRECT in the BHS/Leningrad text. The LXX was messed with, ex post facto, to rebut a BC argument over how the Babylonian kings roster was better. I don't have the whole story on that argument back then, but you can find it on the internet. I don't have the links right now, so just Google for it.

So your claims about the LXX and the MT are provably wrong.

For the roster is consecutive, ON PURPOSE: purpose is to show that God Kept His Promise of Continuing Time for 2100 years to Abraham, and another 2100 years to Christ. Meanwhile, the timeline in BIBLE matches REAL HISTORY you can prove out.

I'm sorry that Camping and other 'scholars' don't do their homework, but even a brainout can JUST PLOT THE BIBLE and then afterwards go to the history books, and find easy corroboration.

That's what I did, here: GeneYrs.xls. It doesn't have all historical events plotted, obviously, but the salient ones. The objective for doing that, was to see how God's 490-year time grants, showed the historical trends as per Leviticus 26 and Deut 28, Acts 17:26, Deut 32:8, etc. And, to see the 2100-year promise playing out, which is the ONLY REASON a) Church exists, and b) there is a Pre-Trib Rapture.

You have to plot out ALL the timeline, to see the pattern. Scholars won't do that. Camping obviously couldn't even read well enough, to try to do that. But even a brainout can do it...

For example, the Pharaonic dates all tally to Bible's story about Joseph through Moses; but I got those dates from my 1985 Encyclopedia Britannica. First I learned the Bible's dates, then went to EB to seek what Pharaohs were named during those periods. The coincidence was astonishing. I wrote Exodate.htm as a consequence.

So if you FIRST ONLY USE BIBLE, then go to the history books, you'll find proof. It's not fiction. But it does require you be open-minded and pay close attention to how the BIBLE ITSELF phrases its own dating conventions. Scholars don't do that, hence all the brouhaha over dates, inside and outside Christendom. It's really sad, how no one cares to first look at what BIBLE says, believer and unbeliever, alike!

I'm sorry you have no faith in Bible, but may I submit your faith is based on HEARSAY, not on the Bible's own text, so of course you're disappointed. I would be, too.

AUDIT the text. Then you'll see some reason for regaining a faith you once had.. in BIBLE, not us sinner humans. End commercial message. Sorry, I'm not into converting people. This is the best I can do. 😉

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LAMBSFURY | Wed May 25, 2011 10:21 am

You keep saying "The Bible" but which one?

The LXX has 2000 years of faithful witnesses!!!!

Your Bible does not!!!

Sorry!!!!

Justin Martyr in 150AD
"But I am far from putting reliance in your teachers, who REFUSE TO ADMIT that the interpretation made by the SEVENTY elders who were with Ptolemy [king] of the Egyptians IS A CORRECT ONE;........" Justin Martyr in his Dialogue with Trypho (Chapters 69-8Cool around 150AD,

Irenaus in 175AD
"Since, therefore, the Scriptures have been interpreted with such fidelity, and by the grace of God, and since from these God has prepared and formed again our faith towards His Son, and has PRESERVED to us the UNADULTERATED SCRIPTURES IN EGYPT, where the house of Jacob flourished.....For the APOSTLES, since they are of more ancient date than all these [heretics], AGREE WITH THIS AFORESAID TRANSLATION; and the translation harmonizes with the tradition of the apostles. For Peter, and John, and Matthew, and Paul, and the rest successively, as well as their followers, did set forth all prophetical [announcements], just as the interpretation of the elders contains them." The words of Irenaus in 175AD on the LXX

Tertullian in 197AD
"That the understanding of their books might not be lacking, this also the Jews supplied to ptolemy. For they gave him SEVENTY-TWO interpreters......The same account is given by Aristeas. So the King left these works UNLOCKED TO ALL, IN THE GREEK LANGUAGE. To this day, at the temple of serapis, the libraries of Ptolemy are to be seen, with the identical Hebrew originals in them. THE JEWS, TOO, READ THEM PUBLICALLY."Â TERTULLIAN (197 A.D.)

Eusebius in 325AD
"Therefore, because it has been definitely established that the Septuagint version was translated FROM THE ORIGINAL, unadulterated Hebrew scriptures, it is reasonable for us to use that version for this chronicle - especially since it is the ONLY VERSION that is APPROVED BY THE CHURCH OF CHRIST, which has spread throughout the WHOLE WORLD, and it is THE VERSION that was HANDED DOWN TO US from the beginning by the APOSTLES AND DISCIPLES OF CHRIST." Eusebius - 325AD

Augustine of Hippo in 370AD
"Nevertheless the church has received this SEPTUAGINT as if it were THE ONLY TRANSLATION, and the CHRISTIAN PEOPLES OF THE GREEK WORLD USE IT, most of them being QUITE UNAWARE WHETHER THERE IS ANY OTHER" Augustine of Hippo (Magnum Opus -The City of God - 370AD)

The translators of the 1611 KJV to King James in 1611
"This is the translation of the SEVENTY Interpreters, commonly so called, which prepared the way for our Saviour AMONG THE GENTILES by written preaching, as Saint John Baptist did among the Jews by vocal......For the same causes also it was well understood in many places of EUROPE, yea, and of AFRICA TOO. Therefore the WORD OF GOD BEING SET FORTH IN GREEK, becometh hereby like a candle set upon a candlestick...." Letter written to King James by the 1611 translators

From the 1810 KJV Bible - The Potter's Bible
"The Ethiopians of Abbysinia have a version of the Bible, which they ascribe to Frumentius, of the fourth century. Chrysostom, who lived in the end of the fourth, and Theodoret, who lived in the middle of the fifth century, both inform us that they had the Syrian, Indian, Persian, Armenian, Ethiopic, and Scythian versions. The ancient Egyptians had the Scriptures translated into their language. The Georgians have a version in their ancient language. The most ancient German translation is supposed to have been made by Ulphilas, A.D. 360. The Old Testament of ALL THESE TRANSLATIONS, except the Syrian, is taken from the SEPTUAGINT, and NOT FROM THE HEBREW TEXT." 1810 Potter's Bible

And finally this...
"But the DSS clearly supported the LXX and even the SP over the MT. Today's scholars believe VARIANT TEXTS ABOUNDED AND NO SINGLE UNIFIED TEXT EXISTED UNTIL AFTER THE COUNCIL OF JAMNIA ABOUT 90CE......Today most scholars, Protestant, Catholic and even Jewish, agree several variant versions of Sacred Scripture existed well into the 1st Century CE and the LXX REPRESENTS OUR CLOSEST TEXT TO THE ORIGINALS. Catholic Bibles are based on the LXX. It is the official Bible of the Greek Orthodox Church and most other Orthodox Churches. The MT is the official Bible of Judaism." The Text-Critical Use of the Septuagint in Bible Research and Texual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible by Emanuel Tov

Start pouting now!!!

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brainout | Wed May 25, 2011 10:37 am | Still refuting Lambsfury slander against the Masoretic text; Here, refuting his use of the back-invented 'Church Fathers'

Quoting the back-invented 'Church Fathers' doesn't help your claim. First, the texts were doctored over and over, and it's a big problem in textual criticism to say what the 'original' texts even WERE. It's not at ALL clear that the books in the names of those people, were at all WRITTEN by those people, but rather by those centuries afterward who wanted to VAUNT those people AS 'church fathers'.

Apparently you've done NO homework on those texts and their derivations. I have. It's easy to know, for a lot of scholars have been puzzling over them for centuries, most of them admiring the texts (why, I can't fathom, for the texts are wholly disgusting).

Secondly, those texts are WACKO. They betray an extreme anti-Biblical apostacy in the alleged writers, from 96AD forward. So if the named writers really wrote those texts, the writers were totally carnal, maybe even unsaved. Sheer drivel. They quote Bible as if it were diarrhea, so that's a kind of value, to see how they phrased the verses.

I've started but not finished, making videos on how anti-semitic they are, on how goofy are the claims made in them, all to prove that the only value of the texts, is linguistic. It's all started in a playlist, here: Pope Myth: Church Father Hall of SHAME

It will take me well over two years to finish documenting all the stupidity in the so-called 'Church Fathers', which Revelation 17 warned about, in the very year that garbage started with whomever cast himself as Clement of Rome. Bilious garbage, all of it, all of it apostate.

You betray a kind of anti-semitism in badmouthing the MT, so I'll not talk to you again. Anti-semitism rots the brain, and talking to an anti-semite who obviously doesn't do his homework, is counterproductive. Maybe when you get past your anger, you'll change your mind. I'm like that too, when I get stuck on something.

Bye for now.

EDIT: I'm not knocking the LXX text. In fact, if I'm 'famous' for anything in Youtube, it's for defending the LXX against the King-James-Only people, who claim the LXX was invented by Origen. But not all the LXX is really Bible. It's been doctored over the years from the original penning in 3rd century BC for Ptolemy. You can tell what parts are doctored, and the scholars have done a great job distinguishing those parts to make it easier to weed out. Greek language quickly morphs, each generation, so the older Greek stands out.

That being said, the Genesis rosters were doctored, at least in Genesis 5 (I didn't check LXX for Genesis 11). Everyone knows that. Everyone but maybe you, but now you know to go look. Since I take it you can read Greek, then just notice how the LXX curiously subtracts from siring, adds to years post-siring, and then suddenly quits with NO balance. That's an amateur hacker's work. Anyone who audits for a living (like me), can see it readily. But you should be able to see it, too.

Finis Edit.

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LAMBSFURY | Wed May 25, 2011 10:49 am

You have no ancient witness to your claim outside "your word" As if one is supposed to trust you!
Look at Genesis 11 and the harmony of Witnesses where the MT has none!!!!
When you look at the line from Arphaxad to Terah, in Genesis 11:

MT LXX SP Josephus
Arphaxad 35 135 135 135
Sala 30 130 130 130
Eber 34 134 134 134
Peleg 30 130 130 130
Reu 32 132 132 132
Serug 30 130 130 130
Nahor 29 79 79 79
Terah 70 70 70 70

Look at the beautiful harmony of Genesis 11 from Josephus' translation of the genealogies of the 450BC original temple scriptures, the LXX, and the Samaritan Pentatuech. All agree 100% perfectly.....
The MT has NOT ONE witness of Genesis 11!!!
Also agree are these witnesses....

Theophilus of Antioch (115AD to 183AD):
Arphaxad - 135
Sala - 130
Eber - 134
Peleg - 130
Reu - 132
Serug - 130
Nahor - 75
Terah - 70

Julius Africanus (160AD-240AD)
Arphaxad - 135
Sala - 130
Eber - 134
Peleg - 130
Reu - 132
Serug - 130
Nahor -79
Terah - 70

Hippolytus wrote in his "Chronicon" in 234AD:
Arphaxad - 135
Sala - 130
Eber - 130

Eusebius in his chronology around 325AD
Arphaxad - 135
Sala - 130
Eber - 134
Peleg - 130
Reu - 132
Serug - 130
Nahor -79
Terah - 70

Now, when we combine the witnesses of Genesis 11, we find harmony with these witnesses:
1. Josephus's translation of the original temple scriptures of 450BC (Nehemiah's copy)
2. The LXX
3. The SP
4. Theophilus of Antioch (115AD to 183AD):
5. Julius Africanus (160AD-240AD)
6. Hippolytus (240AD)
7. Eusebius (325AD)

The most ancient manuscripts before Christ, and early witnesses in the 2nd, 3rd and early 4th century, all agree 100%
So, keep spouting over your 1008AD MT text, a complete LXX outdates your complete MT by 6 centuries!!
Jesus never mentioned your masoretes
And the masoretes who rejected the LXX also rejected the New Testament!!!
Run away coward!
Your argument is CRUSHED!

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brainout | Wed May 25, 2011 11:04 am | Refuting Lambsfury' claim that Bible Hebrew text is bad, Quick demonstrations that NT quoted from Hebrew OT in Jesus day

Sigh. Your inept slander compels one last reply. The Lord quotes from the LXX, I even made a playlist showing how, to defend its BC origin to counter the KJV-only liars, here: b-out NT 'threads' (quotes) LXX But He doesn't ALWAYS quote from the LXX, neither do all the apostles. Sometimes the Masoretic is used. Notably, in the first commandment, Christ preserves the Hebrew prepositions, and REVERSES the LXX prepositions, and then CHANGES the last word in the First Commandment to DIANOIA. That's covered live in Hebrew and Greek, in the second-third videos in the playlist.

And the Matt and Luke rosters do NOT use the LXX text, but the Hebrew.

So there goes your argument of no extant Hebrew text, which is obviously your anti-semitism showing. Yes, everyone sane knows the LXX existed in BC. But even back then, some of the text had um.. barnacles added. They were known, even back then.

Josephus' numbers are completely wrong. They don't tally to anything, as he's using the Seder Olam Rabbah as if it were meant as an annual calendar, when that was NOT its purpose. It's purpose was to track PROMISE TIME, which was a guess by the original compiler of it. The compiler deleted some of the Persian years and made other adjustments. He was trying to gauge when the 4200 rule of Messiah's Return to Inaugurate the New Covenant, would be met. He didn't realize God ordained it as CONSECUTIVE SOLAR YEARS. So the compiler was carnal.

So you can't use Josephus' numbers. After centuries of persecution, the calendar got screwed up by his day, starting maybe during the Hasmoneans, I can't yet prove when it started going wrong.

Now I really will not talk to you again. At least, not until you are awakened by God to realize His Word is a TEAM, not one 'player', which is the contention of the KJVO (they want one text in a Gentile language, waaaahhhh Crying or Very sad ). So yes, the LXX has real Bible in it, and so too the MT. You need BOTH texts, not just one.

EDIT: I'm currently documenting the perfection of the Hebrew meter which we have in the MT, to show it exists, and how it's used as a concordance, a dateline, and a prophetic mnemonic, since the Jews had to MEMORIZE scripture orally. That matters for textual criticism, to verify we have all the right words (i.e., Isaiah 53 has NO missing words, because the meter is perfect.)

This same Hebrew meter is used in the NT Greek, as well, famously by Christ when He says you must forgive 70 x 7 (=490, the meter base in the Hebrew, standing for the basic unit of Promise Time all Jews had to learn). Matt1 and Luke 3 use it, as noted above. So obviously the Hebrew text we have, they had (theirs being without the vowel points and other diacritics, of course).

Paul uses that same meter in Acts 13:20, explicitly to show God's Time Promise being met. But as meter, he uses Eph1:3-14, indexing each phrase to some part of Psalm 90 in Hebrew, Isaiah 53 in Hebrew, Daniel 9's prayer in Hebrew, Paul ending his own prayer at 434 syllables to show that the '62 weeks' was still in ABEYANCE.

In short, Paul uses the meter of Daniel 9, to prove Rapture is imminent, and pre-Trib, the main theme of the Book of Hebrews.

I won't finish those videos until sometime next year, but have done a lot of them so far, in playlists. Enough, so you can TEST the claims. For that's the purpose, is to show the TEXT, which you can objectively TEST.

All playlists are unfinished, as there are hundreds of passages to document, but right now I'm only focusing on four: Isaiah 53, Psalm 90, Daniel 9 (which is metered in Daniel's prayer, and in God's reply of Daniel 9:24-26, which explicitly uses the same 490-construct numbers AS IS THE METER); and Eph 1:3-14. Once you see the patterns, you can vet any other prophetic passage for the same meter.

Each video has links to Word docs and pdfs showing the meter so you can TEST the claims, when you download. Since scholars don't know of this and I learned of it by mistake while auditing my pastor's teaching that Believers Are Used To Buy Time (based on Genesis 5, a doctrine he's taught since 1977) -- since scholars don't know of this Bible backup, I'm trying to play secretary and document it to save them time in the future. Someone will end up running with this. I'm too old. 😀 Here are links to the playlists:

• Isaiah 53: Isaiah 53 Meter of Time: 1st David's Birth to Last David's Scheduled Death + Yapping Most High (YMH)
• Psalm 90 (includes Daniel 9): Psalm 90 Meter of Time (Precedent for Bible Hebrew Meter)
• 10 GGS (will end up focusing on Paul): GGS10 Paul's Meter Of Time Structure in Eph1:3-14
• 10 YMH (focuses on and corrects the math of Jewish Dispensationalism, so you can see the import of the meter): How God Orchestrates Time + Noahic Flood Precedence for God's Orchestration of Time

brainout | Tue May 24, 2011 6:31 pm

Someone just asked that question on the 5/24 Open Forum I just heard just now. Only the word used was 'Satan', not devil. Answer Camping gave is that no child of God can be deceived. Then he proceeded to say only GOD can deceive (LOL that's a refrain in the KORAN, 'allah is the best deceiver'), citing the 'strong delusion' verse in Thessalonians.

Else, 'to wait on God's Timing'. This, from a guy who HATES the Lord saying no one can know when the Rapture will occur! So he's NOT waiting on God's Timing, but claims he is. How can anyone not know he's under demon influence, since the slapstick is so bald?

Look: it's not a happy thing to badmouth someone, and this guy is definitely no teacher, but thinks he is. So out of respect for teachers, one wants to stay mum. But there are limits, and when millions of people are lied to, well -- este es el colmo.

The other Koranic refrain he kept citing was that no one can know if he's saved. There were three questions about whether salvation door was closed, now. He said he didn't even know if HE was saved -- which unbeknownst to him, is an exact quote of Muhammed! Ask any Muslim or better still, former Muslim, for the citation, because I don't remember it. It's a well-known statement.

Upshot: I guess Camping never read Eph 4:14, Paul's 'who has bewitched you' in Galatians, 2Tim2:26-3:7, and the Lord's 'to deceive ei dunaton' (meaning, YES POSSIBLE, in Greek) 'the very elect'.

It's the voice. Those who are carnal are deceived by his voice. Like a pipe organ. Yeah, same description as Satan's voice, in Isaiah 14.

For if you do know Bible, you catch him making really big mistakes that mean no Spirit is in him. Tonight, for example, he claimed that 1Cor15:3's 'for our sins' really should have been translated 'concerning our sins' -- thus belittling Christ's work on the Cross. Claiming that meaning of the Greek.

Well, some demon must live in him, because Greek 'peri' means 'concerning', but the SUBSTITUTIONARY preposition HUPER is instead used in that verse, meaning "Christ died as a SUBSTITUTE for sin". I don't think Camping is so smart to recognize the SUBSTITUTION of a wrong preposition, do you?

Second, he claimed you 'tithed' if you gave out Bibles, claiming also that 'tithing' was spiritual giving in the OT. Wrongo. It was only ever INCOME TAX. The spiritual giving provisions of the Law were never related to income, but always free will offerings. Just read Leviticus and Numbers. The Temple was a fortress, so that's why you brought your income taxes there.

Five minutes' Bible reading even by a teenager, proves him wrong and incompetent. He pretends reading Bible is 'difficult'. Oh yeah? Guess again. Use 1John1:9 regularly, and sit down with your favorite translation, see what happens. Camping can't do that.

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SeekandFind | Tue May 24, 2011 7:11 pm

So my dad was listening and realized it was me talking to Camping right away.

I just spoke to him (my dad) and he was frustrated that I didn't bring up the lineage in Genesis 5 as proof against Camping's timeline. This shocked me as I thought all of Camping's followers knew Camping didn't interpret any of this literally. Such as Genesis 5:9&10 And Enos lived ninety year and begat Cainan: And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.

I always thought all of Camping's followers believed this meant Enos lived 90 years and begat a forefather of Cainan. Now I know that when I read all of chapter 5 to my dad on Sunday this was one of the eye popping proofs. So he wants me to try to get on the OF again tomorrow to read Gen 5:9-13 so other followers can hear. Seriously, how could they miss this when doing thier proof of the timeline?

If anyone reading this tries to call the OF tomorrow or in the future if you don't already have a question please consider reading part of the lineage of Gen. 5 (needs to be past the direct father and son relationships that Camping states which ends with Enos)

The funny thing is, I thought my dad interpreted it how Camping did so I used Luke 3:36-38 to prove the father son relationship. Little did I know Sunday that it was Genesis 5 that opened my dads eyes. Live and learn.

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SeekandFind | Tue May 24, 2011 7:30 pm

Just to make it clear my dad was calling and listening tonight to bring up the Genesis argument to Camping. He believes this may open up other peoples eyes as well. I'm still shocked that this was the proof that put everything over the top. How could the start of the timeline and the Gen. 5 interpretation by Camping be missed by anyone? Man when you are spiritually blind even the most basic verses are hidden.

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brainout | Tue May 24, 2011 8:08 pm | Genesis 5 and 11 Rosters are consecutive, no 'gaps'; Bible's telling a better story with the numbers than Camping detected

So that was YOU I heard, tonight! Very brave. Yeah, the Genesis 5 timeline is misread by many Christians, especially the scholars, who because they can't 'reconcile' the timeline with 'science', try to claim added generations in the line. Matt1 and Luke 3 especially, shoot that idea DOWN.

Then there's the problem of the Greek LXX (translation of the Hebrew OT) having been adulterated by some poor guy trying to balance the Genesis 5 roster to Babylonian kings. The guy did a bad job of deleting 100 years from the siring age and then adding it back to the death age, etc., giving up before he finished the roster, so it doesn't balance.

So that gave the scholars even more reason to throw out the timeline as not consecutive. But the Hebrew text is not adulterated. God always preserves at least ONE copy of each verse, perfectly. 😀)

So the Genesis 5 and 11 rosters are consecutive, and on purpose -- to show how God is REDEEMING TIME. Key is, the timeline starts at Adam's FALL, not at the initial creation of the world, Genesis 3:17. I did videos in Youtube, 'Genesis with Exegesis'. They show the Hebrew live onscreen, using BibleWorks software (a Bible text program, not any denominational slant). Maybe the videos will help, I don't know.

But the important thing is the timeline the BIBLE -- not Camping -- shows. I charted its roster and all the timeline out solely from Bible, here: GeneYrs.xls.

You can use that alongside any Bible you have, to trace out the years. You don't have to be a scholar, but you do have to be willing to use a calculator and look at a lot of verses. The conversion to BC/AD is explained here: brainoutFAQ.htm#6a. Again, you don't have to be a scholar, but you do have to spend the time with the calculator and the BIBLE.

This, Camping never does. So that's why his numbers are all anti-Biblical. See, he doesn't know what dates the Bible gives. Scholars are also rather incompetent at it, i.e., deeming Bible to count in lunar years, when Exodus 12 tells you only solar, just as Genesis 6 with Noah. Duh: can't get your BIRTHDAY right, if you're using lunar years!

So God only goes by Birthdays. Such as Israel's, Exo 12, so her calendar is SOLAR, never lunar. So David designed a solar priestly course roster in 1Chron24, 24 courses for 24 hours in a day, so all priests get equal time to serve. Duh.

The important point is that God is showing a pattern of how He Orchestrates Time, and it completely refutes everything Camping says. There's a pattern of PROMISED TIME, but only for Israel and prior. The promise for Church is instead a promise of BODIES prepaid on the Cross. I did many videos on this in Youtube, and wrote up a huge webpage on it, here: LvS4b.htm. Lots of Bible verses in there to review (search on 'catalog' when you load the page). Some of them are mistranslated, so won't seem relevant. But enough are clear in translation so you can get a 'hint' that this doctrine is valid.

Use 1John1:9 to learn it faster. No one is spiritual unless he's NOT currently in a state of sin, so I use that verse like breathing.

But for you, the worksheet is better. For the pattern is only seen due to the Genesis 5 roster being CONSECUTIVE, i.e., Christ dies the 1470th anniversary of the original Exodus, which (duh, as classical scholars used to know) occurred 1440 BC. You'll see many more relationships due to the roster being consecutive, as you view the worksheet.

If it matters, I've been researching this since the year 2000, and the whole timeline explanation is very different from what Camping says, and all provable IN BIBLE directly by any 'brainout', even me. Corroborates history, when we actually RESPECT the Bible's own way of saying its dates. Camping and others DISRESPECT Bible and use OUTSIDE-OF-BIBLE ideas for calculating dates. They are wrong. Bible is right.

Full writeup is here: Mirroring.htm You can test every claim in that page, and it has a lot of subpages, documents, links, videos etc. so you can TEST it all.

God's Word is AUDITABLE. And thus you know HE wrote it. It's not rocket science!

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brainout | Wed May 25, 2011 1:39 pm | Qara shem: Camping's use of Qara shem doesn't fit Bible

Okay, I finally got it about what this 'qara shem' business in Camping's lingo is about. He's ineptly claiming that unless 'qara shem' is used in a verse, that the person is NOT a direct son.

Weird. Let's look at what Bible says, instead.

• Hebrew 'qara' is a verb, means to 'call', or 'name'. So if you called out for your wife, that's 'qara'. Or, if you named her, that's 'qara'.
• Hebrew 'shem' means 'name' as a noun. Famously in Judaism, they say 'The Name', to avoid saying YHWH.

Okay, so if 'qara shem' isn't recorded in a verse, then what -- it didn't HAPPEN ANYWAY? Sheesh.

So here's a sampling of the verses using both words or their near synonyms. Not all of them are relevant, but the purpose is to show how the Bible uses its terms:

Gen. 2:19; 3:20; 4:17, 25f; 5:2f, 29; 11:9; 12:8; 13:4; 16:11, 13, 15; 17:5, 15, 19; 19:22, 37f; 21:3, 33; 22:14; 25:25f, 30; 26:20ff, 25, 33; 27:36; 28:19; 29:32ff; 30:6, 8, 11, 13, 18, 20f, 24; 31:48; 32:2, 28, 30; 33:17; 35:7f, 10, 15, 18; 38:3ff, 29f; 41:45, 51f; 48:6, 16; 50:11; Exod. 2:10, 22; 15:23; 16:31; 17:7, 15; 31:2; 33:19; 34:5; 35:30; Num. 1:17f; 11:3, 34; 16:2; 21:3; 32:42; Deut. 3:14; 12:5, 11, 21; 14:23f; 16:2, 6, 11; 25:10; 26:2; 28:10; 32:3; Jos. 5:9; 7:26; 19:47; 21:9; Jdg. 1:17, 26; 2:5; 8:31; 13:24; 15:19; 18:29; Ruth 4:17; 1 Sam. 1:20; 7:12; 2 Sam. 2:16; 5:20; 6:2, 8; 9:2; 12:24f, 28; 18:18; 20:1; 1 Ki. 7:21; 8:43; 9:13; 16:24; 18:24, 26; 2 Ki. 2:24; 5:11; 14:7; 24:17; 1 Chr. 4:9; 7:16, 23; 13:6; 14:11; 2 Chr. 3:17; 6:20, 33; 7:14; 14:11; 20:26; 28:15; Ezr. 2:61; Neh. 7:63; 13:25; Est. 2:14; 3:12; 9:26; Job 42:14, 17; Ps. 79:6; 99:6; 116:4; Prov. 27:16; Eccl. 6:10; Isa. 4:1; 7:14; 9:6; 19:18; 41:25; 43:1, 7; 45:4; 48:1f; 49:1; 54:5; 62:2, 4; 63:19; 65:1, 15; Jer. 7:10f, 14, 30; 10:25; 11:16; 14:9; 15:16; 20:3; 23:6; 25:29; 32:34; 33:16; 34:15; Lam. 3:55; Ezek. 20:29; Dan. 4:8; 5:12; 9:18f; 10:1; Joel 2:32; Amos 9:12; Mal. 2:5; Matt. 1:23, 25; Lk. 1:59, 61; 2:21; 19:2; Acts 4:18; 5:39; 9:11, 21, 36; 10:1; 15:17; 1 Co. 1:2; Jas. 2:7; Rev. 8:11; 9:11; 19:13

Pick any group of verses you like. Notice that NOT EVERY NAMING EVENT is listed. So by Camping's goofy idea, then Abraham, Terah, etc. and none of us are direct sons because 'qara shem' isn't recorded of us, either.

In Gen 2:7, we see we are directly created by God, given souls at birth; Gal 3:26 Paul reaffirms, reflecting Christ's statement in John 10:34. Ooops.

Weird stuff. Every time I look into some Camping claim I get more and more weirded out. 😲

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brainout | Wed May 25, 2011 4:57 pm | Why Camping Prayer for Wisdom will keep getting no answer

Mr. Camping keeps saying how he's praying for wisdom, alluding to James 1:5-6. But what did James reply?

So if Mr. Camping is praying for something God forbids (knowing the day or hour), then he won't get an answer. But will think he has one, 1John 1:8, 10.

God forbids knowing, because the criterion for the Rapture is Spiritual Maturation of Church, not a timeline, but a numbers question.

The human race flunked being ready for Christ when it DID have a timeline, so now it gets none. Camping won't accept that. So he is carnal, and all his Bible interpretation is coming from the wrong 'spirit'.

Makes me shudder: doesn't he realize he'll SEE CHRIST, and have to live FOREVER knowing he trashed God's Word? What would I do in that same place, if I were him?

That seems a fate worse than hell, imo. Sure, we're all going to be happy in heaven, but we will also know the TRUTH forever. And Truth is full-spectrum.

Okay, so now I apply that same problem to myself. And I audit myself more strenously. Everything I say, think, write -- re-testing over and over and over and admitting every mistake I find!

I'm scared to death, because it's easy to see his fate from Bible, and just like you learn in West Point not to imitate Napoleon's blunders, you don't want to imitate Camping's.

So I gotta audit myself even more, every day!