Gene,
the red-bolded parts in your quote are very very very incorrect. Specifically, you're spouting the very false kenosis doctrine Thieme refuted, as well as reversing his constant stress that the Lord's soul was CREATED AT BIRTH. I must upbraid you for this. If you were misrepresented by someone else in public, you'd hope someone would come to your defense. You're misrepresenting both Bible and Thieme. I have to upbraid you for this.
So if you'll claim Thieme says something, please cite the class or lesson number, as each time you've made claims about what he said so far, you misstate what he said. Egregiously. Maybe you just remember incorrectly, but by now you've had time to revisit your claims, and clearly have not done so.
So one more time I must remind you, his kenosis classes re Philippians 2:5-10 are in the Philippians series on those verses, and they specifically refute what you're claiming. Moreover, the Hebrews series on Hebrews 10:5, the 1Cor series on 1Cor 15:45, and the Genesis series on Genesis 2:7 are also misrepresented by you. Reversed, by you. I could upload the very classes you abuse to prove the point, but the copyright rules by Berachah forbid me to do so. (I've uploaded classes before and they bid me remove them, even though the classes are free.) So to prove the point I can't provide the direct evidence, by upload. But those are the sources for the proof, which anyone can order from
http://www.rbthieme.org . For free. Without worry they will be 'tracked', and no money-begging letters nor mailing lists.
THAT is the kind of 'citation' I'm asking you to provide, actual Thieme classes with the particular verses, so we can see both Bible AND the allegation you're making about what Thieme said or didn't say. Because clearly you totally misunderstand what he said, AND you misunderstand the very meaning of kenosis.
TO OTHERS: the refutation of what Genez says can be easily heard for yourself, or seen in Bible. Read in Greek, Philippians 2:5-10, then also Hebrews 10:5. If you want to see how Thieme exegetes/explains those verses, to show the Lord's soul was CREATED AT BIRTH -- just order the classes covering those verses, from
http://www.rbthieme.org . The two series are Philippians and Hebrews, respectively. Best to order the whole series on mp3, since it's free and no one sells your name to some dippy mailing list, but you decide what YOU want. My concern, is that I have those classes and I know the teacher and Bible are being misrepresented (probably by accident, but one should not remain silent when this happens).
Here's why it matters: if the Lord's Soul were always eternal, then
a) there would be no human spirit, and
b) we couldn't be saved, because
c) there would be no truly HUMAN person to pay for sins.
So this reversal by Gene is as blasphemous as it gets, and he doesn't realize that fact. If Christ's soul weren't EXACTLY like yours (yet without sin, the main point in Hebrews 1-4), then you couldn't even be saved, nor could you grow up spiritually after salvation. For you need a human spirit to process spiritual information, since God is Spirit (John 4:24). You'll see in the entire Gospel of John that the Holy Spirit was governing/providing His Soul with Doctrine. Well, then the soul is a created thing, not eternal, for if eternal then instead His Own Godness would be controlling. But is not.
For, His Soul was made at birth, that's why He's the Last Adam, 1 Cor 15:45; notice the stress on 'made' (lit., became, not 'made', Greek verb ginomai, so CREATED, quoting Gen 2:7) -- by leaving it out in the Greek as parallel to first Adam, so both SOUL AND SPIRIT were made at birth, just as Gen 2:7. So then you can order the 1 Cor 15 classes and the Genesis 2 classes from
http://www.rbthieme.org and hear for yourself, how he explains those verses; clearly again, refuting Gene's claims.
So then everywhere else in Bible, i.e., in 1John 2-3, you are told that the Spirit governs your soul also, when using 1John1:9. Just as, He did for Christ. So the big point of Bible is that God can make you LIKE CHRIST. Well, if His Soul were uniquely Eternal, that whole promise would be a lie. For your soul wouldn't be like Christ, so the base would not be like Christ, so nothing can be built on the base.
Thieme understood this better than any of the other teachers I can yet find, so spent most classes stressing the fact His Soul was created at Birth and that's why we CAN have a spiritual life and aren't zapped to heaven the minute after we're saved. There are many other teachers besides Thieme who know it, but they didn't stress the point as stridently as he did. So for Gene to allege Thieme taught what Gene wants to be true, must be challenged to defend a DEAD PASTOR who is being maligned (probably unintentionally).
Again, believe whatever you want. But when you cite a source and reverse what that source says, it's right for someone else to challenge you. I would hope that when I screw up the same way, God will send someone to challenge me. None of us always get a doctrine right. So this entire post is not meant personally against Gene or anyone else holding the same views.
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@ Hupostasis
I always thought the Holy Spirit revived our Human Spirit upon faith (born again: of water and SPIRIT) to make it a dwelling place.
Also, what defines the hupostasis of Christ? Is it Christ incarnated in flesh that results in hupostasis, or is it the fact that Christ had a human soul?
If the human soul is what made the Lord hupostatic in the OT time, then all believers are hupostatic since our souls are formatted after the image of God.
..............
Hupostatic refers to two different natures manifested in one being. What happened in the "incarnation" was that the eternal hupostatic union of the Lord God took on *flesh.* That is where we derive the word incarnation... as in "carnal" = fleshly. Colonel Thieme has exegeted that the union is eternal. Always was, and always will be.
Now, as in the OT as the hupostatic union as the Lord God of Israel.. He was not being manifested as a soul and human spirit. For as God He had no need for a human spirit when functioning as God. Its His human spirit that was given when He took on flesh. For as a man he had to learn and grow in knowledge. As Deity in the OT times there was never such a need. The human spirit is for our souls, so we can know and learn spiritual truths. As God before the Incarnation, the Lord God of Israel had no need to learn anything. For His Deity was always making His soul knowing all that His soul needed to be known at all times.
As Colonel Thieme taught about the transformation of the Lord God into becoming as a man. To become Jesus, the Lord had to cease to depend upon his own Deity for anything. In that state of making himself to be as a man, he henceforth had to solely depend upon the Father and the Holy Spirit for all his needs and works. In essence, in His function He became the prototype Christian. Yet, He remained fully cognizant of Who He really was.
That is why, as Colonel Thieme taught over and over again that Satan was tempting Jesus to take back up his powers of Deity when he presented starving Jesus the proposition that He should turn stones into bread. Satan knew Jesus could have turned the stones into bread with His own Deity if he chose to. Jesus chose not to take back up His power of Deity. Powers that He had to lay down in order to save us. Jesus had to refuse if He were to remain the perfect human sacrifice to die in our place as a man. For, if He took back up His power to be God? He would have disqualified Himself to be able to die in our place as a man. He would have ceased being as a man.
Yes.. OT saints were a 'type' of hupostatic union by being of both soul and human spirit. Being two different essences in one being. But, man is with one big difference. Our human spirit does not think and have a will of its own. Its a spiritual apparatus. On the other hand, the Soul of the Lord God of Israel did, and still does have a will of its own.
"Not my will Father, but your will be done."
The Lord God in order to secure our atonement denied Himself His rightful place as being God. And, with the His soul and its abilities entered the body that had been prepared for Him. All the while..He did not forget Who He really was eternally while being as a man. He could not function as God which He really knew he was. Not, if He were to remain qualifying to be our perfect substitutionary sacrifice.
Philippians 2:6-8 presents what took place as the Lord God needed and volunteered to deny Himself his access of the powers of His Deity. It also reveals in the Greek that his Soul alone was uniquely eternal. For unlike our souls, his soul was eternally existing in the essence of God and never created. (will explain how that was possible later)
That is how I have seen the Colonel exegeted Philippians 2:6-8 to mean. http://www.syndein.com/Philippians_2.html
Grace and peace...
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