FrankForum (Frankness IS Forum)

Often perseverance of the saints will come up when explaining salvation, and calvinists or non-calvinists may quip: "well if you believe in eternal security you also believe in perseverance of the saints". Not quite.

Perseverance of the saints is a byproduct of predestination. So they are solely "persevered" as a result of being predestined-- and as such will never fall away.

Eternal security is also somewhat incorrectly defined, as most Christians will say something along the lines of "if you stop believing, you were never a Christian to begin with" (not being able to 'fall away'), so your eternal security is 'reliant' on the fact if you're consistently believing or being good... which allows more threshold to integrate with Calvinism.
But in an ironic way both cut out God and focus on the individual doing the actions: because it's reliant on YOU to keep hustling along, and psychologically condition yourself that you're "truly regenerated": potentially leading into a tunnel of depression as a result.

Eternal Security *correctly defined* is: when you believe for a second that Christ paid for your sins --and even IF you stop believing or blow up an orphanage, you're still saved--. Because Christ did the work on the Cross. So Eternal Security --or-- "permanent salvation" *allows* you to 'fall away' and still be saved.

Therefore, Eternal Security is not reliant on God predestining you or "faith keeping", but the fact that you 'believed' for even just a mere second. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but that definition of Eternal Security does not jive with both predominant christianity and calvinism, which is why you often get the overlap between the two since they require the believer to "never fall away".

You can throw the "truly regenerated" and "never fall away" statements out of the window; if there was such a thing David wouldn't have murdered Bathsheba's husband.

You make some vitally important observations. I was raised to believe that salvation came by faith alone in Christ alone. No human works involved to gain or maintain salvation. For a while, I thought that the majority of "christian" denominations believed that, but now it seems that "faith alone in Christ alone"&"once saved always saved" is the minority. I guess my childhood was a bit sheltered in that aspect.

If these other so-called believers are mixing works with their faith, I wonder how many self proclaimed christians are truly saved? I suppose its futile to ask such questions in this age, but think about it...

If the Rapture were to happen today, would the world even notice?

There are so many false gospels that require action on the belivers part:

1) The faith+works gospel
2) The "salvation maintenance" lifestyle (faith+ intermittent works)
3) The "Let Christ into your heart" gospel
4) The water baptists
5)The tongue mumblers

It almost seems hopeless for so many people.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I used to exclusively believe in works salvation because:
A) I wasn't paying attention to defined words & concepts
B) Nobody ever discreetly defined anything regarding salvation, so I never paid attention to it
C) Confused vocabulary is used along with prependisms
D) **the natural 'learned' human response** is to deny grace: "there's no way you can do XYZ and still go to heaven". Case in point, I've told people who weren't even believers and they vehemently recoiled in fury in response to grace.

As a result it hit me harder than anything else to date. Because I was so wrong, and it's so obvious.

I created one of the biggest articles going through every single contradiction and issue with works salvation here:
http://underthebible.com/salvation.htm

Consider it a WIP since there's always something to add, but that covers *most* of it. It's funny because I always cringe when I hear key terms like: "repent" / "genuine" / "authentic" / "heart" / "faith". Repent should always be MIND CHANGE, genuine/authentic/true/actual don't exist and are prependisms to create an artificial layer on belief. Faith is not good for pistis (should always be 'believe/belief') unless we're referring to monadic pistis "THE faith".
Aha, you're either saved or not saved-- "truly" saved isn't a thing as you can't be re-saved, right? That's one problem with works salvation: there's no mention of being able to lose the holy spirit, or an imaginary holy spirit meter to determine when you're not saved / saved and what variables affect it simultaneously in real time. The problem is (and I have this problem a lot) is you hear phrases like that and you start to subconsciously utilize them (I'm not trying to be rude but to show how it starts to affect everyone--and I am no exception). It was the basis for my analysis on prependisms: And of course these are words that are used to REPLACE 'believe' (pistis) entirely: You can do any one of those and it is meaningless. I can *admit* Christ and not believe. I can *accept* Christ and not believe. I can *acknowledge* Christ and not believe. I can *commit* Christ and not believe. I can *invite* Christ (however the heck you would do that) and not believe. I can *trust* Christ and not believe.

The issue starts to become not so much salvation, but Bible Doctrine in your thinking. I mean, salvation is the greatest gift: but the focus isn't on it since the Christian life focuses on post-salvation. For a case scenario, let's say everyone in the world 'believed' instantly. That'd be great but instead of the lake of fire, people would be in heaven in outer darkness: retaining their original thinking. Possibly despising God or envying those who became kings.
If the rapture happened today, I would say yes. At this point right now because we have computers, loads of manuscripts and some fantastic teachings that were dug up after being on standby for so long-- the ratio of potential pleroma believers is probably higher than it has been for a long long time. I mean, you could probably count the individuals on a set of hands, but that's still a lot! When the rapture nears there'll be no pleroma believers.
I've always used the term "salvation upkeep" but I quite like "salvation maintenance". I've been meaning to get further into baptismal regeneration, but haven't had the chance yet since it's on low priority.

At any rate, perserverance of the saints is the *opposite* of permanent salvation.

You both are raising some really good points. I just wanted to add re the Rapture idea that Bible nowhere says that millions of Christians will be on earth when it happens. Official Rapture term is exanastasis (sorry, still haven't reinstalled Bibleworks), I want to say it's somewhere in Phili 3:10-12, should be translated 'exit resurrection' but I think in translation, they leave out the 'exit' (exz in Greek).* It's surely not secret.

Logically, it seems like the LAST CHRISTIAN is the litmus. Last to complete whatever is the Body of Christ Father determines per Christ's prayer in John 17. Last KING, last one to mature to the Kingship criterion in Eph 4:12-13 (imo KJV has the best translation, ironically enough).

So the implication is, that there wouldn't be anyone else believing in Christ if Church Age went on one day longer; that no one who is a believer will grow spiritually one whit more, if the CA went on one day more. So that argues for a population of believers which has dwindled down to nothing, kinda like in Noah's day, and of course the Lord did draw that parallel.

If you see a better conclusion, let me know? Sorry to interrupt, please feel free to ignore my post if you want.

*EDIT: it's in Phili 3:11, have now installed BW5 again.

@ Hupostasis

By "truley saved", I meant whether those who believe they are saved, actually believe(d) that Jesus died for our sins. Nonetheless, I do see what you're saying. The use of certain words in place of others has a subtle suggestive power on the subconscious mind, almost like a form of mass hypnosis. Next thing you know, the hypnotized are out hypnotizing others.

Take for example, what I call the "cardiac invitation" gospel. Once I asked a preacher what exactly it meant to "invite Christ into one's own heart". The follow-up to that question was a long winded quasi-gnostic philosophical lecture. Had I not already been a believer, I would have been so hopelessly confused.

Its rare to find someone who teaches the real gospel message by itslef: to believe that Jesus died for our sins. I find it a bit scary that such a simple message is so widely distorted.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

@ Brainout

Feel free to chime in at anytime. I find your opinions to be thought provoking.

I do see what you mean by the last Christian, but at the same time it could come down to the last maturing Christian(s). Lets say out of a roomful of believers, only 3 or 4 are actively learning and applying doctrine. Those 3 or 4 might be buying time for the inactive believers to start growing again. Even though God knows that those believers will at some point refuse to grow, the opportunity might still be offered to them. I'm just talking hypothetically here. I realize that such a situation would not be measurable from our perspective, and I do hope that there are more than a roomful of believers in this world; but seeing how rare it is to find a Church that still teaches the gospel (at least in USA), the question enters my mind quite frequently.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Yes, last maturing Christian is the more likely. And yes, buying time. The calculation of what's fair and what's foreknown would be determinative, but only God knows the answer to all that. Hence Rapture is unpredictable, for we don't know when that 'ripeness' will occur.

And there will always be a few pastors who teach doctrine properly, even as 90-99% will always be apostate. But even an apostate pastor can occasionally impart Bible properly, so that buys time, too: for him, for his congregation, for those around them.

Yeah, on all three points. I find that "truly saved" (when used by most people) is used to question salvation, so it has become a polluted term.

The reason why that preacher started with "inviting / accepting into the heart" and then spiraling out of control into a bunch of procedures is because he never bothered to look into what it (discreetly) is, so the information in his mind has no boundaries and it spirals into chaos. I did the same thing years back, I'd end up with a mess of steps required to be saved, and say things like "accept with your heart", so the correct terms weren't even being used. I just subconsciously heard that and apparently repeated it.

When you don't have the information of "believe only = permanent salvation", it becomes a dog's breakfast and anything goes. And because anything goes, you end up with a "winded quasi-gnostic philosophical lecture".

I find there are christians who DO teach "once saved always saved even if you do whatever", but often institute faith-keeping. So soon as you stop believing, "you were never saved to begin with" so they just contradicted "once saved always saved". OR, my least favourite individuals who play the word games "you are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is not alone" <-- THEN YOU ARE NOT SAVED BY BELIEF ALONE!!!! It's a word game to say "believe only" but then quickly add the invisible strings while trying to claim they're NOT invisible strings. I know such a pastor who is arrogant like that, he talks about "grace" and then pulls the "faith without works is dead / the demons believe also" card. Of course believing without God's divine work in you is dead because you're a standby believer which has nothing to do with salvation. And the demons don't *believe* in Christ, they believe the doctrine of the trinity, there's no such thing as "demon faith". I got so sick of hearing that at one point I 1 Peter 5:7ed it to God via 1 John 1:9-- and what do you know. Awhile later he went on vacation and the whole week there was a new guest pastor each day who talked about salvation being on with belief and no works. It actually made some of the "works" congregational members upset and they left the church. Go figure.

@ Hupostasis

Yeah, people always use the "demons have faith" argument to attack 'faith alone'. My response to that is, demons (and some non-believers) have a total disregard for righteousness vs sin. In their eyes, their sins aren't actually sins at all, so how could they believe that Christ paid for sins if they don't believe that they even sin in the first place.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

That 'demons have faith' line has a different yet related meaning, when you consider that Greek pistis usually means DOCTRINE everywhere in the NT. 'The faith', we'd call it, as that's the Greek term too. So you can have the doctrine, Deut 30 and Romans 10:9-10, but do you BELIEVE in it?

Then there's the difference between believing God is One, versus believing IN Him. Sure, we all believe certain things are facts, but do we believe IN? I believe God exists, but do I believe IN Him to save me? Very different thing. Say you're married, and you have kids. You well believe you're married and have kids, but do you believe IN your spouse, your kids? Very different thing.

Hebrews 11:1 ties. We are on trial for the Doctrine of Christ, whether we believe IN it, IN His Thinking. I tried to show that in video, here.

And we all fail to believe IN what He says, de vez en cuando. But that's not a salvation issue, nor is James about how to be saved, but how to mature.

Okay let's knock it out of the park since it has come up, NIV actually has a better CONTEXTUAL rendition in my opinion: #1 context has nothing to do with salvation
#2 demons *don't* 'believe' that Christ paid for their sins (and this verse has nothing to do with Christ paying for sins)
#3 entire book is about believers on stand-by **not studying Bible Doctrine** (argos pistis)
#4 THINK: why was James bringing up the trinity in the first place? He was making fun at the believers in question with the O.T. (mirroring when the Israelites were saying "God is one" but not actually believing in any B.D., just mouthing phrases), so it was a rather sharp O.T. parallel, also appropriate since he was speaking to Jewish believers.
#5 Again... the verse does not say 'the demons also 'believe Christ paid for their sins', this cannot be made more clear

Of course those who are responding via reflex will just ignore the surrounding context and the O.T. parallels. I suppose you won't 'get it' unless you go through the O.T., but it's impossible to extrapolate that the demons believe in Christ paying for their sins regardless.

Predestination is a big buggaboo of believers. I believe the reason is because of placing the wrong emphasis on what we have been predestined for. Its assumed by many that we have been predestined to believe. Its not the case.

1. God is omniscient. He always knows all those who will choose to believe. He does not make them believe. He simply knows out of all the people who are to exist, those who will believe.

2. God chooses when we are to be born, and die. He alone determines and when and where we are to be born. (Acts 17:26)

So? If not salvation? What does God predetermine? What God predetermines is what is to be granted individually to all those He knows will believe.

After all.. are all believers throughout history the Bride of Christ? Are all called to be Tribulation saints? Were all called to have their eternal home on the New Earth? Have their Eternal home in Heaven? For each of us God sovereignly chose when we were to be born during a specific dispensation. For we have been chosen IN Christ. Church age only! Chosen before the foundations of the earth. (Ephesians 1:4)

Was Moses chosen by God to be a member of the Bride of Christ? No, he was not. For, God sovereignly chose Moses to be a part of the eternal kingdom promised to Abraham on the new earth.

We of the Church age have been predestined to be IN Christ!

Just as the woman was hidden in Adam's side? We are now IN Christ seated with Him in heavenly places! (Ephesians 2:6)

And, just as the woman was given her body from the same elements of Adam's flesh and bone? We too, shall be given a body consisting of the exact same heavenly elements of the glorious body of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Adam enthusiastically declared on first sight of the woman... "Now! This is bone of my boned, and flesh of my flesh!" The Lord will look at us in our resurrection body and could tell us the equivalent!

As for OT saints? Their resurrection bodies will consist of the elements of the eternal earth. They were not predestined by God to be the Bride.

If God wanted to? He could have decreed that David would be born in the church age. If that were the case? God would have predestined David to be IN Christ.

What we are predestined for is what God determined is to be our eternal state. God does not predetermine that a soul will believe in Him. He took from all those whom He knows will believe, and predetermined their eternal habitation. Ours is to have our home in Heaven and to have a body just like the Lord's. Just like Eve was the same body as Adam.

Grace and peace

_________________
God has two dwellings:
one in heaven, and the other
in a meek and thankful heart.
Izaak Walton
(1593-1683)

Basically it could be summed up that God's foreknowledge acts upon our decisions (dynamic). Which isn't mechanical predestination, it's integrating your personal relationship with God.

I can't say I'm fond of the word 'predestination' as it implies that God operates the individual's sentience *and* acts upon the decisions of said sentience. Which is no sentience at all...

I can fully attest that God's done things in my life that are impossible unless He foreknew. But it's complimentary and often times *personal* (for no-one else but myself). I've never felt violated and always have the option to 'opt out', but why would I? So then the better response is... is it mere predestination or your relationship with God? Obviously your relationship.

"Those who persevere to the end will be saved." ?

Matthew 24:8-13 speaks not of the church age.

Jesus came as a Jew. He spoke to the Jews according to their Jewish theology. That passage is about the time of the Tribulation. Jesus was telling them (Jews) that those who endure to the end (of the Tribulation) will be *delivered.* That passage speaks of the dangers that will take place during the Tribulation. Its not about the Church age. It speaks of those enduring and remaining yet alive, being delivered from death.. to enter into the Millennium alive.

_________________
God has two dwellings:
one in heaven, and the other
in a meek and thankful heart.
Izaak Walton
(1593-1683)