I couldn't figure a better topic to put this under, other than demonology. Why?
A) we'll see how the Internet Monk (Chaplain Mike & friends) is demonic on its assessment of R.B. Thieme
B) we'll see the doctrines that the Internet Monk fosters (my litmus is always whether or not someone can state salvation correctly--and that has NOTHING to do with Thieme--but the Word of God)
Chaplain Mike wrote:
When Thieme became pastor of Berachah, he immediately dismissed the church board and inaugurated a heavy schedule of teaching services—four nights a week and twice on Sunday. His teaching ministry proliferated throughout the country and around the world through lectures, books, and tapes. At one point the ministry was reported to be sending out thirty thousand tapes per month. Those who have been connected with Thieme or influenced by his teaching include Hal Lindsey (he attended Thieme’s church and mentions RBT in The Late Great Planet Earth), Chuck Swindoll, and Dan and Marilyn Quayle.
Source: http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/wha ... r-b-thieme
Okay... Thieme goes through why
he dissolved the church board (and WHY a Church Board does NOT work; but I guess Chaplain Mike couldn't be bothered to listen to the reasons given and instead just throws it up as a negative). For crying out loud, it follows the same principle as having too many cooks in the kitchen, someone has to have control and lead. It's not that hard to grasp! Not to mention the church board probably couldn't stomach SAVED ONLY BY BELIEF, PERMANENTLY. But apparently Chaplain Mike LUSTS after ecumenicalism and disregards the hierarchy of businesses, governments, military and ultimately the royal priesthood...
Next up Chaplain Mike makes it a 'bad thing' that R.B. Thieme started a weekly study class (Chapstick Mike calls it a regime
). First of all, it was NOT mandatory to attend every class weekly, and as a pastor-teacher it was HIS JOB. Full time Christian service. And many people didn't even know that he did weekly classes... because most lazy pastors (who aren't even ordained by God) whip out a weak sermon about on Sunday with ushy-gushy "let's all do human works" and call it quits for the rest of the week.
Chaplain Mike wrote:
By most reports, Bob Thieme was idiosyncratic, pedantic, authoritarian, provocative, prolific, reclusive, and condescending.
Many of his teachings are downright looney and some so convoluted that even the diagrams he used to visualize them look like advanced mathematical formulae (see below).
He may be understood as a product of dispensational methodology gone to seed, military style discipline and organization, Cold War sensibilities, and a kind of intellectual hubris by which one creates his own system and then sets himself up as the only expert over it.
Source: http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/wha ... r-b-thieme
Thieme never forced ANYONE to stay around in the Church if they didn't like it. The reason why Thieme was tough is because the point of being in Bible Class is to learn doctrine, not to socialize or groom your emotion.
The whole "Thieme's teachings are looney" has been perpetuated by a lot of people who never actually learned any of it to begin with
and just got a sour taste in their mouth because they'd rather join an emotional religious Church rather than study God's Word
. Plain and simple (and Thieme even himself mentions this over and over--heck, even in the first basics series). Even if Thieme's teachings were "loony", the accusations are coming from people who have loony beliefs themselves (like works salvation) along with a host of contradictions.
ALL OF IT can be observed
in real life and tracked down to the original Greek and Hebrew / Aramaic... take the divine viewpoint and the human viewpoint. The whole reason why these people can't get salvation is because they're interpreting it based in the human viewpoint. The concept of 1 John 1:9... the old sin nature... it's all there out in the open. It just depends WHETHER OR NOT someone wants to 'see' it and go with God's Word.
I'll take one of Thieme's formulas over "let's all hold hands and jump up and down and sing everyone loves Jesus" any day of the week. Like... there's no point of THE BIBLE
if you don't read it and actually digest all of the information in there verse by verse, word by word.
Sure... the reason why Thieme is "the only expert" is because of people exactly like Chapstick Mike who'd rather gush emotion behind a stained glass window rather than go through the original language text, carnality and ignoring 1 John 1:9 aside
. You know... maybe if more people were willing to study (!) there could be better discourse regarding this. But no, Chaplain Mike throws 2 Timtohy 2:15 out of the window and would rather close his eyes as the Bible.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Chaplain Mike wrote:
The emphasis of Thieme-style church is on (the pastor) teaching doctrine, period. I have always found the ethos as warm and hospitable as an windowless military office full of gray steel filing cabinets. Some have testified that the atmosphere at Berachah Church under Thieme was as controlling and manipulative as boot camp—break down the soldier’s personality and will, and force submission to the “army way.”
Oh... there we go with Chapstick Mike's EMOTION again... "oh it was likened to windowless military office...". Again, this can only be said from someone who is all emotion and zero Bible. Thieme repeatedly says, it's not the man, it's the message; hence the whole thing of marturomai in Ephesians 4:17, but that'll go over the head of Chaplain Mike.
I lean back in my comfortable leather chair, swing open my window to let the cool summer air and sun come in while I listen to Thieme on my monitor speakers. Ideally you want "right environment" to study to eliminate as much cognitive dissonance as possible.
Chaplain Mike wrote:
When we first moved to the south side of Indianapolis, we noticed a “Bible Doctrine Church” near where we lived. It has always been small and has experienced problems; another congregation split off from it and became more mainstream non-denominational evangelical in its ministry. But it remains open.
You can still find these kinds of groups on the internet too, but as I looked through websites, I noticed that many of the churches no longer have pastors and that the people gather to watch videos of teachers from other locations. (One of Thieme’s teachings was that believers cannot grow by studying the Bible for themselves—they must have a “pastor-teacher” to instruct them).
This has nothing to do with Thieme really... there's going to be "Bible Doctrine" churches everywhere, and many of them will be mixed up. Probably moreso than orthodox churches (who barely open the Bible). For instance... when I was in mass MANY times, the priest would read a very short verse in the new testament, and then talk for an hour + about a personal story that 'sort of' related to the translated verse in question. No doctrine whatsoever. SO WHEN you have something that starts to deal with high-thinking biblical information, there's a lot more room for ERROR and instability. Hence... 1 John 1:9, Romans 8:28, 2 Timothy 2:15, Romans 4:5-6... etc...
Now onto the comments
Ugg. The church I grew up in completely worshiped him. It also ruined the lives of most of its congregation. That said, since I stopped going there before I reached junior high, I never really investigated Thieme so I’m not sure how many of my bad memories are from his method or simply from the individuals involved in that specific church.
UHHH HELLO!!! OF COURSE WORSHIPING YOUR PASTOR-TEACHER is going to ruin your life! This goes back to what I've been saying repeatedly, it's not the man, IT'S THE MESSAGE
. People who become obsessed with the person
instead of the Word of God, are going to be complete nutjobs. While it's true I happen to like Thieme's personality and his jokes that he constantly peppers throughout sermons, that has nothing to do with studying the Word of God and should NEVER be a focus when it comes to studying said Word.
And notice Marie says "I never really investigated Thieme", well there you go! And observing the effects of what happens after salvation when those people are carnal has NOTHING to do with Thieme. In fact, Thieme states quite explicitly what happens when you don't study the Bible and develop your OWN MISERY. So... it's quite expected for someone's life to be ruined when they get emotional and psychotic and start to worship the teacher and IGNORE the Word of God.
And here are a shower of knee-jerk reactions (negative out of the box) from Chapstick Mike's article where all of the people proclaim "oh I should be thankful I haven't heard of Thieme before". Give me a break. Does the Word of GOD scare them that much?
Ray A wrote:
This is the first I’ve ever heard of the man. For which I should probably be thankful — he sounds like a bibliolatrous, militaristic Harold Camping, with a dash of shepherding movement thrown in for “flava.” And that diagram … “gobbledygook” seems inadequate. I look over this and I hear in my head the voice of Dr. Walter Martin saying “run, don’t walk, to the exit” …
Tom Volkmar wrote:
Never heard of the man, and thank God for that. Had enough problems without ‘im.
This is the first I’ve heard of this guy and after the reading the post I think that is probably a good thing. I’ve probably run across a few who were influenced by him, though.
Brian K wrote:
I never heard of this R.B. Thieme (thank you God) but he seemed to be selling the same old message of
fear, God-complex, & inerrancy. aka fundementalism!
There's something important to note.. and that is, nobody has actually 'tested' to see what Thieme preaches is correct or not. They just make assumptions and already have a pre-existing problem of being religious; which means they'd have to rehabilitate their thinking by UNLEARNING so much false doctrine.
And here we have a good case of someone who just would never 'get it' with the Word of God:
Joanie D wrote:
After seeing that diagram, I can tell I would want to know no more about this man’s teachings.
Joanie is the kind of person who is fine with orthodox churchianity and religion. Having been in Catholicism for a better portion of my early life... I can spot those kind of religious zombies from a mile away.
Chaplain Mike wrote:
Yes, the abortion thing was a surprise to me. It grows out of his “rightly dividing” approach. Biological life should be distinguished from soul life, which in Thieme’s view is given by God in a baby’s first breath. Therefore abortion is only disposing of biological matter, not a human being.
Oh well that shows Chaplain Mike's true colours (if THAT surprises him, wait until he discovers permanent salvation through only belief). Soul is imputed after first breath. Full stop. It's in the Hebrew but those kind of people just couldn't be bothered to 'get it', stuck in the human viewpoint. THINK: why would God impute a soul to something that's not human? IS GOD GOING TO IMPUTE A SOUL INTO A FREAKING SPERM? And the fact the baby needs to take a BREATH to have soul imputed, is analogous to many other doctrines like 1 John 1:9 (spiritually breathing). So... you can only lie to yourself about soul imputation before you contradict a huge portion of the Word.
Shane Kelly wrote:
If you google RBThiemeJr files.pdf, you will find pretty much all you need to know about his history and effect. Reading about people offering his “free” material (as if this is a good thing), it simply boils down to that no one outside his group would publish it i.e. the material is worth buying, and secondly that the Master wants his ideas to be distributed as far and wide as possible. Including long after his death.
Okay buddy... for starters Thieme himself states that God provided money for the ministry in the most surprising ways. IF GOD wants you as a pastor HE PROVIDES. End of story. You often see a lot of mixed-up struggling churches entrenched in religion because they just can't figure out the Bible and never bother to read it. Or go completely insane.
Material is free because some people who need doctrine can't afford it, and because JESUS CHRIST SAYS SO. It has nothing to do with a master complex. Not to mention, Thieme's goal was never get rich or money, duh.
Onto the other content of the Internet Monk to get a better idea of what these people believe (although we have a pretty good idea already)
Chaplain Mike wrote:
As Christ-followers, we are defined by the Story of Jesus — his incarnation, life, death, resurrection, and ascension. As he triumphed, so we walk in his triumph. God works through us as we live cruciform lives. We are the suffering people of God, who bear in our bodies the dying of Jesus that the life of Jesus may be given to the world. This often looks like defeat. In Christ, it means ultimate triumph.
Source: http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/chr ... -salvation
Look at that religious vomit. "we're the suffering people of God, wah wah wah wah". That's just mindless drivel. No... we're the royal believer priests studying and learning The Word to get Christ's thinking into our thinking...
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvellous light
Heck... the majority of these things are even translated in English plain as day.
Onto Chaplain Mike's bizarre salvation story and his mixup on the whole thing. AS could have been predicted, he's into works salvation. *surprise!*
I remember the day I changed my thinking about when I was “saved.” I had grown up in a mainline Protestant denomination, was baptized and confirmed, attended worship and Sunday School, and dabbled with youth group. However, in my teen years, I was not deeply involved.
In the midst of my wandering, God graciously brought me into contact with some fellow students who attended a local Baptist church. I saw a real difference in them, and their joy was attractive. I became part of the group, though I hesitated to come forward and confess my faith as a Christian. Eventually, however, I responded to an altar call, went forward and expressed my desire to be baptized as a new follower of Jesus. From that point on, through his gracious preserving power I have never turned back.
From the day I heard Joe’s story, I began to think about my “salvation” differently.
One weakness of the revivalist approach is that it separates a person’s life into two distinct periods, one “without God” and one “with God”. It cannot tolerate nuances in that black/white division. God’s work before that “day of salvation” is discounted, especially if “conversion” involves moving from one form of Christian faith to another, as happened with me.
This is one reason I identify myself as a “post-evangelical” today. American evangelicalism has its roots sunk deeply into the ethos of revivalism. It’s about preaching for decision. And it’s the decision that gets it done. In a moment.
In my humble opinion, it is God that gets it done, and his ways are not our ways.
Notice Mike keeps assuming "God brought me into this" "God did this" "God did that". It's a COMMON COMPLEX for the religious washed-up Christian to fixate and assume God does everything for every-day occurrences. "Oh hey, God helped me find my keys", uhhh no. YOU just simply found them and have hallucinated that God was somehow involved.
Then he gambles and states there is no single point that when "you're saved".
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.
Looks pretty clear to me.
You'll also notice Mike doesn't list a single verse, it's just more verbal vomit as he gloats over his emotion, and then attributes everyday occurrences and hallucination as a product of God.
But for some atheists, the motive is more about proving “You don’t need God to be good” (as the bus adverts and billboards had it) than about doing good works; it’s to show “See? We don’t believe in God and we do nice things, too!” Now, any activity that is more about glorification of one’s self or for an ulterior motive is mistaken or worse, and this applies to the religious as well.
Source: http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/how ... -e-z-steps
So yeah... this actually proves the following:
#1 there is a separation of HUMAN WORKS and GOD'S WORKS (or human good and divine good)
#2 the "works" religious washed-up christian do are human works (human good)
#3 as a result of unbelievers being able to do good works, they cannot therefore have any effect on salvation
#4 as a result of the "good works" that unbelievers can do are the same ones mirrored by religious Christians, therefore these "good works" are NOT "divine works".
Lisa Dye wrote:
LD: One time experience or lifelong process? Yes, and no. I think that what we typically refer to as being saved is really being reconciled. A few years ago as I was meditating on Romans 5:10, I was struck that the Apostle Paul spoke of two different causes and two different effects. The causes were Christ’s death and Christ’s life with their effects being reconciliation and salvation respectively. “For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!” What happened on August 25, 1975 on a boat at night in the middle of a lake, with my stepsister helping me along, is that I was made aware that the rift between God and me (due to my sinfulness) was reconciled by Christ’s death. That is the part of the salvation process on which I can pin a date.
Source: http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/wri ... -salvation
That's just all over the place! Notice Lisa swaps out "saved" with a different word to edge in space to make it temporal. The human body always sins, and it's the MENTAL SINS that are the worst of any. But of course Lisa cannot help herself and implies overt sins. Typical.
"Salvation process" SALVATION IS NOT A PROCESS. ONLY BELIEVE, BAM. DONE.
Belief + 0 = salvation. Permanent. Forever.
If salvation was a process, Christ's death on the cross is useless, 1 John 1:9 is useless, and we'd need a "salvation meter" along with additional scripture to back up the concept of losing the holy spirit every time you somehow lose salvation, along with information on what happens when you keep on regaining salvation.
It's just a freaking mess, I don't know how anyone could confidently have a "salvation process" make sense in their mind without shattering the entire Bible and all of its doctrines.
Anyways... we can conclude from all of this, that the Internet Monk is your standard religious group who can't grasp even the basics in Bible 101. Just as I predicted, if you can't get salvation down right... you get almost everything else in the Bible wrong:
A) you risk of not being saved, for... if you don't believe WITHOUT anything else you can't be saved since you're no longer believing that Christ paid for your sins. If you're not saved you can't process the Bible correctly.
B) it's so fundamental in getting everything else correct (salvation + refilling of the holy spirit)