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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2016, 11:53 
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EDIT: Video playlist on this thread is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWhe4wg ... 4fmi3Xs3Yf It only plays in Youtube, so use the link to create a new window or tab.

The text is reparsed SIX times so far (as of end Feb, 2017), so this discussion is very windy, as we try to refine the proper meter. The latest revision to the text is at http://www.brainout.net/Matt24-25ParsedR6.pdf (.doc is editable, but you must have Bibleworks fonts, obtainable at http://www.bibleworks.com/fonts.html ) . Purpose of thread is METHODOLOGY, to vet.

Upshot: it's a timeline from 30-3250AD, satire on the denouement of Church, update on Daniel 9 which updated Daniel 2's Man of Time, which in turn was updated in Daniel 11's 'King of the North' which moves steadily WESTWARD. So we wonder if the US is the eventual Gentile anti-christ (Dan11:35ff depicts the Jewish anti-christ, there are two potential in any year). No predicting Rapture, but still history would go on, so what would it be like? That's what this timeline tells you. Moses did the same starting in Genesis 1, and then Isaiah 53 played on Psalm 90 (written same year as Gen1), and then Dan9 played on both. Then Mary played on Daniel, and now the Lord plays on all those prior texts. The syllable counts are MEANINGFUL, to 'tag' those other passages.

Goes through world history, so you just add 30 to the syllable counts then look at the text to see the satire on that period.

Initial version, Anonynomenon's pdf of Matt24 Greek meter, in draft, is attached per his request. If you also have a problem uploading your stuff, just email it to me. For some reason I don't have problems uploading attachments. You shouldn't either, so if you do maybe I've set something wrong; let me know what error message you get.


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Last edited by brainout on 01 Mar 2017, 07:47, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: 22 Feb 2016, 03:07 
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Thank you Brainout, for up loading the document for me.

Quote:
Matt 24:
1 Καὶ ἐξελθὼν ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἀπὸ τοῦ ἱεροῦ ἐπορεύετο, καὶ προσῆλθον οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ ἐπιδεῖξαι αὐτῷ τὰς οἰκοδομὰς τοῦ ἱεροῦ. 40 syllables
1Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.

2 ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Οὐ βλέπετε ταῦτα πάντα; ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐ μὴ ἀφεθῇ ὧδε λίθος ἐπὶ λίθον ὃς οὐ καταλυθήσεται. 44 syllables
2And He said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”

40+44=84 syllables


Matt 24 opens with an 84 syllable Divine Decree, predicting the Temple's destruction. Jesus was speaking just before His arrest and crucifixion in 30 AD, and we know that the Temple fell in 70 AD. So verse 1 shows Jesus leaving the Temple in 40 syllables, which I believe foreshadows the Temple's time expiring 40 years later.

Jesus then tells His disciples of the Temples destruction in verse 2, closing the Divine Decree with the last 44 syllables.

Just 84 years before the Olivet Discourse, the Jerusalem Temple was sacked by Crassus in 53 BC on his way to the Parthians.

So for Matthew 24 (and probably for the entire book) the Dateline looks like 30 AD: 84 years after the Temple is sacked in 53 BC, and 40 years before its total destruction in 70 AD. The question is, what took place 44 years later in 114 AD????? I'm still working on that.

edit

In 115 AD, the Kitos War a (Jewish revolt), erupted while Trajan was busy with the Parthian War. Some sources place this Jewish revolt in 114 AD. So 84 years before 30 AD, was Crassus on his way to fight the Parthians, and 84 years later, a Jewish revolt while Trajan is fighting the Parthians. History repeating!!!!

Any thoughts?

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PostPosted: 22 Feb 2016, 03:43 
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Well, you need two datelines. 84 could be one, and you've made a plausible argument for 84 doctrinally and datewise, but you need a second which is doctrinally-consistent. Elision looks okay.

84 is DECREE MADE meter, established by Moses in Psalm 90. So that fits, too. Isaiah split up the 84 into two 42 bookends for the Decree of Messiah First to Last David in Isaiah 53 (52:13-14=42 syllables, and 53:12=42 syllables).

Instead of 44 years you'd want 84 years after. If we say 30 rather than 31 AD which 84 years aft would produce, then 30+84=114, would be 115 if -53+84; the Kitos war ref is interesting. We need to know more about it. Paul benchmarks 114 in Ephesians when satirizing Trajan, for he dies at the end of having increased Rome to its largest extent, only to be undone by his heir Hadrian (satire using the eta in thelematos three times, each with same meaning of an emperor death which is in vain).

If you split the 84 like Isaiah did, then 31+42 is 73, which could tie to Temple Destruction date, as the Lord would then be age 73 using Paul's A.D. counting style. That's what John does in his letters: Christ born 4103 from Adam's Fall therefore 4176. Which is, 40 years after Isaiah 53's endpoint (37AD is when Christ was supposed to die, had Israel accepted Him).

Most interesting, is the 44 versus 40. The latter is well known number of judgment, and the extra 4 has so much meaning re the flaw in Varro's accounting which ended up causing our own BC/AD accounting flaw, plus a cute ref to the constantly-recurring 3.5 hanging chad. I gotta think about it more, though.

So the meter looks quite plausible, with doctrinal fit. We still need the second dateline, to better know.

So that second dateline, in your workup, is 63, same as Psalm 90, seven more than 56. Clever. So let's apply the test:

30+63 is 93, 31+63 more like it, 94 as Lord's Age, when Trib supposed to start. Hence the extra seven, being made up so the Trib can begin on time anyway. But either way, since you're in your 94th year when age 93. So 90-91 AD, three years after John penned Revelation. Meaning? Mid-Trib schedule, when Temple abominated.

What about 63 years prior? That would be 33BC, possibly 32BC, Augustus' rise to power, though he himself dated it from Actium which was 31. But then we've the 4-year variance, which wasn't favored UNTIL Augustus (Varro's calendar only became law under Claudius). Given the 40/44 play, I have to think something deliberate's going on here, but what? Not sure.

The other two, ending with 91 as 21+70 is very Mosaic Psalm 90, idea of using 70 as a 490. Maybe that's why Paul also structured Eph1:3-14 using 434, to play on both Matt24 and Daniel 9 at the same time? Same style as Isaiah 53? Intriguing.

Pattern: 84+63+21+70+84 (so bookended, playing on Isaiah 53, DOUBLING his bookending) + 133 (again playing on the candlestick meter in Isaiah, 52;13-53:2, then also 53:9-12, each 133 syllables), +105 (prominent in Paul but I'm not sure all of what it means, seems to make up for the extra 7 from when Mill was supposed to begin at His Age 98).

Verse 4 using 21, number of years Jacob was under Laban -- is the meter of GROWTH. So GROWTH is forecast under pressure. That Growth occurs best under pressure. As, with Jacob. Idea of indenture.

70 of course, is the meter of mass voting by believers to grow, in 490+70+490=1050, the foundational civilization unit which Moses used in Gen 1 meter. Interesting that it's used for verse 5, to describe both the Church Age (which after all hadn't yet begun and might still not have) -- as well as the Trib -- which is also a voting. Equating the two, and of course there's 7*70, 490.

Not seeing the palindrome which is another characteristic, yet bookending is clear (test of meter being deliberate, not coincidental). AND 63+21=84. Peter played on 84 for his dateline meter, too.

Wait, we do have a palindrome: verses 7-9 are of opposite meter compared to 1-2. Mirrored. So it's deliberate.

Verses 10-14 at 133, just like Isaiah and Daniel used it, but is the Lord also piggybacking? In Daniel 9:7 where the piggybacking started, the 133 differential is marked by SUMMATION of Israel's sins whether 'near or far'. So too, verses 10-14 seem a summation again of worldwide scope. What about Psalm 90 and Isaiah 53? In the latter, the 133s are used for Decree balanced by history, respectively. Psalm 90:7 ends cumulatively at 133, and that's the verse on how we end our lives angry with God (accusing Him of our own anger). But of course Ephesians 1 wasn't written yet, so no ties there.

Now the final paragraph, re the Trib itself, verses 15-18. I see the 105 a lot, seems to be 98 (Lord's Age when Mill was supposed to begin) +7, as if all history is 7 years later than scheduled, pre-Church. Trouble is, I haven't found yet WHEN that extra seven began. It might have been with Jacob, for remember only a total of 14 years working was supposed to occur. Or it might have occurred with David living to age 77 not 70, when he retired (pity scholars don't read 1Kings 6:1 properly). So 105 comes to mean a TIME MAKEUP FINISHED value.

It's interesting that 105x12=1260. That's another way to see the syllables are deliberately metered, for those in the Trib will need the mnemonic when to start the countdown that Revelation 11 reveals (1221.75 then 75 then Abomination set up, with 1260 being the midpoint, remember SOLAR year accounting means 365.25x7=2556.75 days in 7 years).

So the meter total is 560, VOTE COMPLETION! Wow, I've been looking for that; we have the 560 (v.19) and 1050 (v.31) in Geneis 1 meter, the 490's used in Psalm 90 and Isaiah 53 and Paul, but I'd not seen a 560 yet in other OT or NT. I don't see any need to change your elision assumptions, either. You seem to be onto something here! Maybe a whole timeline for eternity from His Time forward, playing on Daniel 9:24's suntelw? It's so similar to Moses in Psalm 90 and Isaiah 53, I wonder...


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PostPosted: 22 Feb 2016, 05:57 
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I'm still working on the second dateline. Herod the Great built the Antonia Fortress around the Temple mount in 35 BC. I'm not sure how accurate that date is, or how significant it would be, but it was torn down in 70 AD.
Then you have Domitian's persecution of Christians in 93AD, but I can't place my finger on a specific event.

But how could the Tribulation start and Jesus' age of 94. He died at the age of 33 in the year 4,136. So 4,136+61=4197. That doesn't allow for a 7 year Tribulation before 4,200.

Do you mean the Great Tribulation of 3.5 years? That is what He mentions in Matt 24:15-22.

The 63 syllables of Matt 24:3 are the disciples asking for timing and signs of Jesus' return. Maybe the Antonia Fortress (which would eventually be torn down) was one of the signs, and 93 AD was (as you stated) supposed to be the start of the Great Tribulation.

Look at how the Antonia Fortress and Great Tribulation are linked:

Quote:
Luke 21:20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.
Matt 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),


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PostPosted: 22 Feb 2016, 06:06 
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Yeah, those items too. I'm still editing my comment while you're typing yours. You really are onto something here. I've been editing for over an hour and not done yet, so if you don't hear back from me for awhile, that's why.


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PostPosted: 22 Feb 2016, 06:13 
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@Brainout
Quote:
Pattern: 84+63+21+70+84 (so bookended, playing on Isaiah 53, DOUBLING his bookending) + 133 (again playing on the candlestick meter in Isaiah, 52;13-53:2, then also 53:9-12, each 133 syllables), +105 (prominent in Paul but I'm not sure all of what it means, seems to make up for the extra 7 from when Mill was supposed to begin at His Age 98).

So the meter total is 560, VOTE COMPLETION! Wow, I've been looking for that; we have the 1050 in Geneis 1 meter, the 490's used in Psalm 90 and Isaiah 53 and Paul, but I'd not seen a 560 yet. I don't see any need to change your elision assumptions, either. You seem to be onto something here! Maybe a whole timeline for eternity from His Time forward, playing on Daniel 9:24's suntelw? It's so similar to Moses in Psalm 90 and Isaiah 53, I wonder...


At this point, I'm pretty confident on my elision placements. This is my second attempt at metering Matt 24, and I've got the same syllable counts, with one or two elision changes that I've made after learning more about Greek.

Keep in mind that the 105 is in fact 35+70, so the 35 is completing the 490, and the 70 is completing the 560, like you pointed out.

If we can prove that 30 AD is the year Matthew wrote, then it looks like 30 AD started a new 490+70, right?

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PostPosted: 22 Feb 2016, 06:47 
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@ brainout
Quote:
Not seeing the palindrome which is another characteristic, yet bookending is clear (test of meter being deliberate, not coincidental). AND 63+21=84. Peter played on 84 for his dateline meter, too.


Also notice the mirror imaging that Matthew does with the twin bookending 84's: 40+44 and 44+40. Very fancy. :grin:

Anyways, I have to pull myself away from this and try to get some sleep. I'm sure I'll be muttering numbers in my sleep. Looking forward to reading what you're writing tomorrow.

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PostPosted: 22 Feb 2016, 08:47 
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Okay, well I've temporarily finished re-editing my first post reaction to your meter, so some of your later comments you too might want to edit. I found some palindrome, and the 35+70 meaning is fine, but it seems in context more to talk back to 98+7, the Lord warning them that the Trib won't be 'on time'.

As for the new 490 beginning 30 AD, yeah I did http://www.brainout.net/GeneYrs.xls that way, but Paul seems to be starting a new 490 at His Birth, see the meter in Eph1:3-14.* He uses 56 where Mary left off (Lord's Age). Then has the palindromic 434, so 56+434=490 (the last 56 in ellipsis just like Daniel 9 did).

So maybe BOTH are 490 measuring periods for time grants? But only one can be the historical 490. Still, if staying with the old Adamic model (which I did), there is a convergence.

Look it over, lemme know your thoughts. I have to upload the weekly God Deeds and do other work now, wish I could only do this instead!

*For those not having Bibleworks fonts, use this copy instead, page 8.


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PostPosted: 22 Feb 2016, 11:21 
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Forgot to cover red-highlighted stuff below. 4103+33+40-4106 to adjust for BC/AD =70. So His age 94=91 AD. So mid-Trib when Temple Abominated, was yet future (could have been rebuilt or partly rebuilt or sacrificing on it like they did in Haggai or Ezra 1-6, by then). Trib start per Bible would have been His age 91, and John was exiled then per Rev, 88 AD. That was when Domitian started his persecutions, as I tried to show live in books I was reading on him at the time, here.

Christianity uses Eusebius instead of historical facts; the former was one of the biggest liars in Christendom, making up nearly everything like Donald Trump does, all for sales purposes. So our false notions of 95AD and near that for John stem from Eusebius. But there is no evidence of Domitian persecuting anyone but his own, and he did that in 88-89AD, which John's meter matches. Aha. Still doesn't prove that John's exile had anything to do with Domitian, but it makes sense some provincial official wanting to be in D's good graces would have rounded up Christians and exiled the leader(s).

Anonynomenon wrote:
I'm still working on the second dateline. Herod the Great built the Antonia Fortress around the Temple mount in 35 BC. I'm not sure how accurate that date is, or how significant it would be, but it was torn down in 70 AD.
Then you have Domitian's persecution of Christians in 93AD, but I can't place my finger on a specific event.

But how could the Tribulation start and Jesus' age of 94. He died at the age of 33 in the year 4,136. So 4,136+61=4197. That doesn't allow for a 7 year Tribulation before 4,200.


Do you mean the Great Tribulation of 3.5 years? That is what He mentions in Matt 24:15-22.

The 63 syllables of Matt 24:3 are the disciples asking for timing and signs of Jesus' return. Maybe the Antonia Fortress (which would eventually be torn down) was one of the signs, and 93 AD was (as you stated) supposed to be the start of the Great Tribulation.

Look at how the Antonia Fortress and Great Tribulation are linked:

Quote:
Luke 21:20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.
Matt 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),



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PostPosted: 22 Feb 2016, 12:52 
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This post will cover the last half. Through v.18, we had 560 ending at the Trib Mid-Point aka Temple Down aka Daniel 9:27 midpoint, matching the dateline themes. So verses 19 and following are on something additional about the same period, or something else. We can see from the text, that verses 19+ are like a rabbinical commentarty on what to LEARN from that period, whether you live through it or not.

Pattern is 119+168+189+126+308+217=1127, which is odd. Frankly the meter doesn't look right. Doesn't mean it's wrong, but the elision is definitely off (ouai is two syllables, not one). So it needs revisiting.


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PostPosted: 22 Feb 2016, 18:39 
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What about this?

Quote:
καὶ εἰ μὴ ἐκολοβώθησαν αἱ ἡμέραι ἐκεῖναι, οὐκ ἂν ἐσώθη πᾶσα σάρξ· διὰ δὲ τοὺς ἐκλεκτοὺς κολοβωθήσονται αἱ ἡμέραι ἐκεῖναι.


I was thinking that 'ouai' could be pronounced as 'wai'.

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PostPosted: 23 Feb 2016, 00:01 
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Krasis is ok. But ou-ai isn't 'w' sound.

The bigger point is, let's just focus on verses 1-18 for now, hone down the meaning. The balance of the chapter is the rabbinical commentary, and if it's metered will play on the prior meter. I kinda doubt that the whole chapter is metered, but let's just test the first 18 verses for now?

One of the big questions is WHAT FISCAL we're dealing with. Sacred Jewish year fiscal Passover in what we call 30 AD would be really 31, at START of year. That's when He died. It would have become 31AD Adamic six months prior. So let's hone down the datelines, since if we use 30AD for the subtraction, it might instead need to be called 29 or ..?

It's very plausible, given Matt 26, That Matt 24 and 25 are spoken before the vernal equinox in what we call 30 AD.

Biggest reason why: if the 1st 18 aren't as you've shown, the whole chapter is blown. As it stands, 1127 is too much.

So let's validate the first 18 then when sure, go through the rest.


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PostPosted: 23 Feb 2016, 02:03 
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Ok, so commenting on your long edit.

63: I REALLY like the idea that 63 might be a reference to the Antonia Fortress of 33ish BC and Christ's age at OLD SCHEDULE--MIDTRIB in 93 AD...for the obvious reason that the Antonia Fortress was torn down in 70 AD. What are your thoughts on that???

133: Following the uses of 133 from Pslam 90, Daniel 9, Isaiah 52-53, Matt 24, and finally Ephesians 1. It looks like its related to the need, rejection, prophetic fulfillment, communication, and glorification of God's mercy via His plan of Salvation. Each use of 133 shows a progression in God's plan; Psalm 90--total depravity of humanity, Daniel 9--Israel's rejection of God's witness, Isaiah 52-53--God's mercy fulfilled and justice satisfied, Matt 24--evangelism, and Ephesians 1--the Father is Glorified by His Son's work of Salvation. Do you agree that the 133's all have a common theme?

105: I find it interesting that 105 is related to MAKING UP TIME, but in Matt 24:15-18 the clause is specifically divided up into 35+70, rather than the 98+7....and Matt 24's 105 is about the Abomination mid-point, not the full 7 years. Still, the MAKE UP TIME idea is attractive: Hypothetically speaking, what would it mean to find a number like 455, or 945 without the presence of the 105? Would that mean TIME IS MADE UP???
Remember that 315, 210, 1,050-5,250, 1,260 and 1,365 are all multiples of 105, so what would be the mnemonic value for those cases??? What if 105 is a general meaning for BUYING TIME?? Where else in OT meter is 105 used? Maybe that can tell us where the EXTRA 7 came from.

I'll be working on 21 and 70 next. Since 63 is probably a second dateline, does that mean I count 30 AD+21, or should I do 30AD +84+63+21???


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PostPosted: 23 Feb 2016, 03:01 
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Okay, I've still got to read and respond to your latest post. I was here, but instead chasing down the validity of datelines 84 and 63.

Crassus' sacking is obviously valid. 84+30 to ref Kitos war, less so, but since Paul satirizes the same time period, it must have some validity. I just found a post in a forum about it, referencing Cassius Dio's account, here: http://historum.com/ancient-history/351 ... s-war.html

Dio is one of the respected Roman annalists of that time. Most of his stuff didn't survive. What sticks out about that post, is the sacking of Roman temples in CYRENE (northern Africa), etc. The rebellion was all over the Roman empire and seems to have caused Hadrian to turn anti-semitic or at least adopt such a policy. Precursor for him wanting to raze Jeruselam entire, make Aeolia Capitolina when he came to power in 118, hence spawning Bar Kochba. I wasn't aware he wanted to do it that early. Still not sure he did.

The 63 as -30+63 is somewhat puzzling, unless the Lord is using the convention of dating from Roman consulship (Octavian not yet Augustus, 2nd consulship). Unless, the Lord is referring to 'The Donations' which once had Octavian's backing; but in 33BC he used them to start war with Anthony. That was the last year of the (Second) Triumvirate with Anthony. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donations_of_Alexandria

Re the Antonia Fortress, that's not Jewish construction so I don't see why it would be mentioned. The passage is about the Temple Talking about the Temple representing Him, so should be about people. Since the later reference is clearly about ROME, you could argue the pre- Incarnation reference should be as well, not merely when edifice was constructed. So what is as big as 30+63? I'm thinking only the whole Donations thingy, as that was an epic inheritance struggle over whether Antony or Octavian would be speaking for 'Rome', with the claim by Antony that 'Palestine' was part of the 'Donation'.

Of course, that's WHY the 'Antonia' fortress was built: Herod backed Anthony then. It was in essence a succession war over who of Caesar's kids should rule, his legal heir Octavian or his legal son, Caesarion. :boxing:

By contrast, the 30+63 is clear and immediately relevant, since under Daniel 9 the Temple was originally slated to be Abominated mid-Trib, and Matt24 is about Abomination. 93 is mid Trib in that schedule (Lord's Age: Trib was always scheduled to begin at His Age 91 and Mill to begin when He reached age 98). Which would have been used for illustration, as Church was NOT YET certain to occur.


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PostPosted: 23 Feb 2016, 03:08 
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21 and 70

Since 84 and 63 are probably datelines which seem to work best with 31 AD (so far), then;

31 AD+84+21= 136 AD--By this time, Hadrian has stopped the Bar Kokhba revolt and chased the Jews out of Galilee. Then Judea and Galilee becomes Palestine. This could be considered Christ's follow up to the disciples' question, where Jesus say in verse 4, "See to it that no one misleads you." Simon bar Kokhba mislead many Jews and is said to have persecuted Christians. Rabbi Akiva ben Joseph even hinted at the possibility that bar Kokhba was the messiah. Looks like a false christ with his false prophet.

If we then go back in time: 30 AD-(84+21)= 75 BC-- I'm not sure what happened here that is relevant to the passage, but in 76 BC, leadership in Judea switched from Alexander Jannaeus at his death to his wife Salome Alexandra, and her son Hyrcanus II became the High Priest.

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PostPosted: 23 Feb 2016, 04:13 
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Why are you adding 21 to 84? The datelines are 84 and 63, reverse order from Psalm 90's presentation. I'm sorry, not following why you're doing the calculation below.

Anonynomenon wrote:
21 and 70

Since 84 and 63 are probably datelines which seem to work best with 31 AD (so far), then;

31 AD+84+21= 136 AD--By this time, Hadrian has stopped the Bar Kokhba revolt and chased the Jews out of Galilee. Then Judea and Galilee becomes Palestine. This could be considered Christ's follow up to the disciples' question, where Jesus say in verse 4, "See to it that no one misleads you." Simon bar Kokhba mislead many Jews and is said to have persecuted Christians. Rabbi Akiva ben Joseph even hinted at the possibility that bar Kokhba was the messiah. Looks like a false christ with his false prophet.

If we then go back in time: 30 AD-(84+21)= 75 BC-- I'm not sure what happened here that is relevant to the passage, but in 76 BC, leadership in Judea switched from Alexander Jannaeus at his death to his wife Salome Alexandra, and her son Hyrcanus II became the High Priest.


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PostPosted: 23 Feb 2016, 04:26 
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My replies are in green font within your post below.

Anonynomenon wrote:
Ok, so commenting on your long edit.

63: I REALLY like the idea that 63 might be a reference to the Antonia Fortress of 33ish BC and Christ's age at OLD SCHEDULE--MIDTRIB in 93 AD...for the obvious reason that the Antonia Fortress was torn down in 70 AD. What are your thoughts on that???

Yeah, just posted them above this post. More like ANTHONY than Antonia.

133: Following the uses of 133 from Pslam 90, Daniel 9, Isaiah 52-53, Matt 24, and finally Ephesians 1. It looks like its related to the need, rejection, prophetic fulfillment, communication, and glorification of God's mercy via His plan of Salvation. Each use of 133 shows a progression in God's plan; Psalm 90--total depravity of humanity, Daniel 9--Israel's rejection of God's witness, Isaiah 52-53--God's mercy fulfilled and justice satisfied, Matt 24--evangelism, and Ephesians 1--the Father is Glorified by His Son's work of Salvation. Do you agree that the 133's all have a common theme?

Yeah, common theme. Haven't thought of the meaning as a progression per iteration pan-Bible. We'd have to see that with other meters as well, if used with this one..

105: I find it interesting that 105 is related to MAKING UP TIME, but in Matt 24:15-18 the clause is specifically divided up into 35+70, rather than the 98+7....and Matt 24's 105 is about the Abomination mid-point, not the full 7 years. Still, the MAKE UP TIME idea is attractive: Hypothetically speaking, what would it mean to find a number like 455, or 945 without the presence of the 105? Would that mean TIME IS MADE UP???
Remember that 315, 210, 1,050-5,250, 1,260 and 1,365 are all multiples of 105, so what would be the mnemonic value for those cases??? What if 105 is a general meaning for BUYING TIME?? Where else in OT meter is 105 used? Maybe that can tell us where the EXTRA 7 came from.

Well, I didn't see the meter subdivide as either 35+70 or 98+7 (verse 15 is again the pregnant 44, not 35; you cannot syntactically append its last 9 syllables instead to v.16); so was going by text for the meaning. As we've discussed before, I'm not yet sure all of what and why the 105 is used. Answers are very tentative, until more proof if its usage, obtains..

I'll be working on 21 and 70 next. Since 63 is probably a second dateline, does that mean I count 30 AD+21, or should I do 30AD +84+63+21???

No, just 84 and then separately, 63. Still, if there is other play you can validate, maybe some other mix applies, but I've not seen datelines used in other ways, yet..


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PostPosted: 23 Feb 2016, 05:20 
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Ok. I just spent the last few hours reparsing Matt 24:1-18. The same main counts are there, but there is much more to it than I originally thought.

yeah, you're right, the 105 is NOT 35+70. I fixed that.

the new results are:
(40+44)+(42+21)+(21+70)+(44+40)+(28+105)+105=560

Uploading the new pdf.

Since 63=42+21, does that mean there are 3 datelines? Have you seen that before? Isn't that what Peter used?


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PostPosted: 23 Feb 2016, 05:33 
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Okay, but you have to test for sevening prior to 105 in each case, and parse by clause. The overall meanings are still fine, but absent the subsevening, you don't know the actual pattern. And it could well be an annual satirization on future history, just as Paul ends up doing in Ephesians 1:3-14. His wasn't the first; so it should be that the Lord Himself did the same thing somewhere, since Mary did it in the Magnificat.

So we need to see the subsevening. Then again, you're probably exhausted by now, maybe take a break for awhile.

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PostPosted: 23 Feb 2016, 05:42 
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Sub sevening? Not sure what you mean.

you mean like in 133=28+105??? The 28 is 21(ending with 'kai')+7 (miseisousin alleilous). That's verse 10.

or in verse 3b? "kai ti to seimeion teis (7) seis parousias kai sunteleias tou aiwnos(14)"

Anyways, just let me know if that's what you mean. Ill work on it tomorrow. Gonna hit the sack for now.

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PostPosted: 23 Feb 2016, 18:15 
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Yeah, that's why you want to break the meter by clauses. Detect any subsevening within the verses, because then the meter pattern will be clearer.

It's already obviously deliberate. But the 'big chunks' like 105 are probably subsevened. If not, then the validation of the 105 meaning is also more secure. We have to be sure which it is.

Don't force the sevening. Do by clause, it should flow naturally. So do NOT end with 'kai', as that begins a new clause. DO NOT do it Jewish style, where they just break the text in sixes (sevens, in our case) no matter where the break occurs. CLAUSES ONLY.


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PostPosted: 23 Feb 2016, 19:29 
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2nd reply, more detail

Anonynomenon wrote:
Sub sevening? Not sure what you mean.

you mean like in 133=28+105??? The 28 is 21(ending with 'kai')+7 (miseisousin alleilous). That's verse 10.

kai begins clauses or is ascensive/emphatic, never ends them.

or in verse 3b? "kai ti to seimeion teis (7) seis parousias kai sunteleias tou aiwnos(14)"

"kai ti to seimeion teis seis parousias (12) kai sunteleias tou aiwnos (9)"

12 is freq. meter for the 12 tribes, 9 for Trinity. This is the kind of stuff you find when you ONLY meter by clauses and then ONLY seven accumulatively.

Anyways, just let me know if that's what you mean. Ill work on it tomorrow. Gonna hit the sack for now.


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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2016, 05:37 
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Never mind, my math was wrong. Had a long day.

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 Post subject: Re: Matt 24:11-14 at 105
PostPosted: 24 Feb 2016, 05:40 
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Verse 10 is fascinating. 28 is the meter of growth, so apparently division and strife among believers is used by God to create growth (21+7).

Wow, vv11-14, I can't see any subsevening, and the text fits the 105 meaning of completing All Time with the added 7 years. But it drives me crazy. I still can't tell WHAT seven is missing, other than the extra seven years of His Life which got cut short, but He'd still be the same age on any Schedule? Unless the SCHEDULE was built around Him dying at 40? (You remember, I suppose, that Talmud's San97-99 affirm that too.)

How do we go about proving that the entire timeline was based on Him dying at 40? It's built into the Abrahamic schedule (4106 initial scheduled Birth, 4146 initial scheduled death, 2100 years after Abraham's supermaturation), but He still dies in time for the original schedule for Trib to occur, so what's this about the extra 7 still mattering? I'm cornfused. :tumbleweed:


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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2016, 05:56 
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Well, Jesus is the Temple incarnate, so maybe His life span schedule directly correlated to the Temple. Jews entered the Land 40 years late, so Temple fell 40 years after Jesus died, maybe showing that Jesus should have lived to the age of 40?

Think about it. Jesus lived to age 33, then Temple stood for 40 years post death. If Jesus had lived to be 40, Temple would have stood only 33 more years. It must be deliberate.

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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2016, 06:27 
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Yeah, but then the hanging-chad 7 in Daniel 9 is a PREDICTION that He'd die early? Or...?

That extra 14 was built into Psalm 90, for crying out loud. That's why it's 84 rather than 70. So I'm thinking Jacob was the origin of the 14 late, but now...?

Then there's the Pharaoh Dream and David Reign 33+7 structures...


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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2016, 06:39 
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Maybe Daniel was offering the possibility of an early death. Didn't Isaiah predict Israel's rejection of Christ?

Are there any uses of 33 in the OT? Either overt or in the meter?

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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2016, 06:49 
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Ok. 2 Sam 5:5 says David ruled in Hebron for 7.5 years. So unless Christ is cutting six months off of Tribulation, then His early death can't be related to the Tribulation.

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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2016, 06:53 
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Okay, we were typing at the same time. I don't know of any other 33+7 structures, except Pharaoh and David. I see your point about the 7.5 ruling out His early death as Trib-related, but somehow the WHOLE TIMELINE is off the 7 years, due to .. what, since it balances? I mean, had there been no Church, Mill still was to begin on time, but .. ok, maybe it's too late, my brain is OUT.

Then again, when Dan9 written, you had the extra 7 due only to the fact that there were 7 sabbatical years owed on the 49, which could NOT be made up during Israel's time, so that's why they were esconced in Dan9:25-26, for Messiah's lifetime. Maybe that's it.

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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2016, 07:03 
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Yeah, I'm pretty burned out too.

It has to be Jacob. Jeremiah 30:7 calls it the time of Jacob's trouble. I know that Jacob is a common name for Israel, but the use of Jacob must mean the Tribulation time originated from Jacob.

That's it for now.

Ok. What about this: Abraham matured 54 years early, so Jacob is born 54 years early. Israel delays 40 of the 54 years in entering the Land, so the Canaanites/Gentiles keep the land 40 years longer than they were supposed to. So what's left is the remaining 14 that follow after Temple falls.

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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2016, 07:16 
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Okay, but how do we prove Jacob born 54 years early.. oh, you mean the timeline speeded up due to..okay, but then Temple would be also falling too soon.. hmm.

In any event, we've back-to-back 105's; first, in 11-14, then 15-18. Paul uses 210, but I forget how. It's 7 more than 203 in Isaiah 53, which syllable is the TEMPLE DOWN at 586 BC prophetic countdown.

Cross ref 210 in Psalm 90:10 on how long man lives. Clever.


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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2016, 07:20 
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If you consider the Temple to be Israel's time, then the Temple fell late due to late entry. The 40 year credit was reimbursed to the Canaanites, not Romans.

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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2016, 07:26 
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Yeah, she's 14 years overbudget at that time. So if the Trib is subsumed into the 40 as 7+33 but it doesn't play because Christ is rejected 7 years early...?


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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2016, 07:37 
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Well remember that Jesus lived to be 33.5 years, so that shaves the 6 months off of the Hebron model, the Trib could be the 7 years taken from Jesus.

But we know Jacob was 7 years over budget, having to work for two wives. So maybe Jesus' early death was because of Jacob's overage, therefore Christ had to pay for Church too.

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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2016, 07:40 
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Well, He was born on Chanukah, so not quite 6 months by Passover following. The parallel to Leah (Israel) and Rachel (Church) is interesting. But He dies 7 years EARLY not late, so....


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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2016, 07:47 
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Because Jacob had 14 years to buy his brides, it cost Jesus 7 years to buy His bride. Its not a parallel, but a contrast.

If Jacob had stayed on schedule, Christ would have stayed on schedule, and they would each have had what they originally wanted.

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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2016, 07:51 
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Okay, well that's a decent point. It just CANNOT be coincidental that the two 105's, which like you originally parsed, have 35+70, to parallel Psalm 90:10 which is 35 syllables and TALKS ABOUT man's lifetime as a 70-year (voting!) period. Granted, the actual parsing for the first 105 is 44+61, but in context it's pregnant. The second doesn't subseven either. To show only complete at the end. WITH the extra 7.

So, okay, maybe the point you're now making about buying Bride is the reason. I'm stupified.

So now maybe verses 19 and following in their meter, will elucidate?


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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2016, 08:02 
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In that case, then the Tribulation is simply the 70th week (483+7=490). No reimbursement, but a delayed payment due to Church.

If Jesus had lived to be 40, then Jacob's overage would have been taken from the Temple's 33 remaining years???

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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2016, 08:12 
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Well, that's the problem. I can't find the timeline actually being delayed due to Jacob.

Good night, I gotta work tomorrow.


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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2016, 08:21 
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I see 26 a lot in the meter. Can't remember where at the moment, but could it be related to 26+7?

Under the principle of right-man/right-woman, Jacob was delayed in buying Leah. So that could be taken as a deviation from the schedule. The metaphor is pretty direct: Jacob represents Christ, Leah is Israel, Rachel is Church. We are purchaced from the slavery of sin, so maybe Laban represents Satan.

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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2016, 09:27 
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Okay, came back, couldn't sleep. I'm wondering where we find the initial precedent for the annual prophetic timeline Paul uses in Ephesians. He bases his meter on the Magnificat, but that was retrospective exposition, then affirming the fulfilment of the prophecy through Abraham, by its end. So where did Paul get the intervening prophecy timeline? What if -- and it should be so -- Paul got it from the Lord speaking the text we call Matt 24 or its Luke 21 version? Luke and Ephesians come out the same year. But maybe it's actually from Matthew, since Luke wraps to Matthew's text.

So where does the annual prophetic timeline start? 24:1, which is added by Matthew so NOT spoken by the Lord? It's not sevened until end verse 2, so is there an ellipsis of 40 at the end of the chapter? And what is the starting point? Temple Down? Or the Lord's death, which makes more sense given that 560 is the total by end verse 18?

If a timeline, then it would explain why so long, over 1000. But it subdivides: 476 (Daniel's number, 14 shy of 490) from v.19-31 (end, still using your initial pdf). V.31 ends with what we'll later know as the Rapture, 2Thess 4:17, made into the theme of whole book of Hebrews (climactically explained in 11:39-40, then played on in 12:1, and finally depicted in Rev 4:1's two meta tauta clauses).

Then 126, evoking Isaiah's twin 126's, verses 32-35. For after all, now we're talking Trib. So then not a timeline anymore, since it's too long? Only figurative, to remind everyone of the twin 126's?

Then verses 36-44, play on Noah in Boat (365-57) which Paul definitely uses, followed by verses 45-51 (chapter end) = 217 which Mary used and obviously the Lord would have her syllable count in Magnificat memorized so could easily be seen as playing on it.

Most interestingly, Genesis 1 is 1141 syllables total (Hebrew of chapter ends at what we call 2:3). Minus 14? 1127, the total number of syllables from verses 19-51! So the Progenitor of all History is making a new 1050, with the extra 14 in ellipsis? 1050+91=1141, the '91' being allowance for another 'season', maybe 'hidden' Church?

Pretend all that's true. Then we could argue that v.19 instead begins 70 AD (40 fronting ellipsis), the dual entendre and actual historical prophecy both included in the meaning. So the preceding 560 (with ellipsis, when the Lord is actually talking) was principle, overview; kinda like how Gen1 is overview for the 'detail' of Gen2, which covers the same period. So verses 19-51 would be some kind of timeline, also somewhat still principle, to show the '1050' with some kind of overlap, since CA really started on Pentecost 30AD. But the extra 91 with the 14 subtraction, then means what? A total of maybe 77 years overbudget? If so, how? But when do you subtract the 40, or do we add it at the end? Or do nothing, as it is subsumed within the 77, a pregnant ending (David was age 77 when he died, Isaiah plays on that in 1st 77 syllables of Isaiah 52:13-15, which is where Chap 53 starts in Hebrew)?

Just thinking out loud here.


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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2016, 16:50 
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K. I'll have to think about that later, but God just reminded me of the First Born Male law, as I was going to work. After the birth of a first born male, the child is unclean for 7 days (8th day is circumcision), and the mother is unclean for 33 more days, after which the child is to be presented to the High Priest. Maybe I got the details wrong. I'll have to look it up, but 7+33 is written into the Law.

Also, could you refresh my memory on the 3.5 variance regarding Jesus' birth. Doesn't it have something to do with David and a time overlap?

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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2016, 17:27 
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Wow, that's a good ideea about birthing in the Law. the 3.5 variance seems to be due to David but I don't think that's the initial derivation of the delay, for why is it called the time of JACOB's trouble? But I find no 3.5 for Jacob, but only the 7.

The 3.5 is in the time lapse from 1Kings 1 until and counting 1Kings 6:1, when David should have been 80, construction starting in Ziv. Implication that maybe David died 3 years, 6 months prior? 3 years is at 1Kings 2:39, when Shimei is executed for rebellion (pretending he's just leaving to get his donkey or whatever).

So then 2 Ziv minus 6 would be 2 Bul. Not Chislev. What would be the import of that? Dunno.

What I do know, is that verses 19ff probably are a timeline for Church, but I can't prove that yet, either. Tentative first comments made here, showing your initial pdf:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWhe4wg2Q8Q


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4cVh_P5y-I


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gdCCBnhmd4


If for some reason you don't want those videos public, lemme know and I'll change it.


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I don't mind the videos. I'll watch them when I get home.

I'm interested in the 3.5 because I think Abraham was the cause. You said he matured 53.5 years early.Can you prove its 53.5 and not 54???

Cuz if 53.5, then the 14 years is really 13.5 years. Thats problematic.

My thinking is, maybe the 40 wilderness years in Exodus where a Gentile reimbursement for Abraham (40 of 53.5 years). Then maybe somewhere later, 3.5 years were paid back to Gentiles, thereby causing David's 3.5 year delay and therefore Jesus 3.5 year delay.

In order for Jacob's trouble to come from Jacob, we would have to prove that he accomplished something 3.5 years ahead of schedule.


WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE CALENDAR.: 14th Abib is Cross +3.5 days is Resurrection +3.5+40 is ascension + 10 is Pentecost. So what's with the 3.5 day gap between the Resurrection and the 40+10????

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 Post subject: Re: 53.5 3.5 7 50 40 10
PostPosted: 24 Feb 2016, 23:31 
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Yeah, 53.5 years. We know it's 53.5 due to Noah getting his covenant on his birthday=14 days after vernal, but the original fiscal Adamic was based on autumnal equinox, hence six months early deadline for Abraham to get it. So the 3.5 for David adds up to 57, hence 50+7, etc. So now it's more about the timing when Christ dies, which is on the anniversary of Noah's birth.

I can't prove about 3.5 with Jacob. Thieme always taught it as 3.5 years, the subset 'Great Tribulation'. Why, I don't remember right now. Seems to me it should be 7.

Year Christ died, the calendar was not yet intercalated, so official date of 14 Nisan was 18 Nisan. He rises 3.5 days later, which would have been official First Fruits: Num28:26, based on the last day of Passover not first, and that year Passover ran Sat-Sat so Sat post-sundown began FF.

Pentecost is far simpler. It's the 57th day after Passover begins, since you start the 50 count at FF. So it starts WHEN He rose. so 40 days then 10 more. That's pretty conventional theology, as I remember.

Did I cover what you wanted covered? Again, all this is just thinking out loud.


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PostPosted: 25 Feb 2016, 00:01 
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Well, lets ignore the official callendar and stick to the Solar year.

Pentecost= 14Abib+3.5(Resurrection)+3.5+40+10.

Or 3.5+3.5+40+10=57

Why did Jesus rise 3.5 days in and not 7? I know it has to do with Jonah, but why bisect the week?

It must have something to do with Abraham's 53.5.
The reimbursement must have been done prior to Jesus' death so that Gentiles could be gathered under Jewish time.

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PostPosted: 25 Feb 2016, 00:34 
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53.5 years +3.5 years is not 3.5 days, and it does matter that He died on Real but ate on Official Passover, else First Fruits couldn't occur when it did. Technically He dies at the start of the REAL Passover week, but under the Law the Sanhedrin called the calendar. So the issue was, how does God keep His Promise? Well, here by the Set Aside date 10 Nisan being messed up as Passover by the Sanhedrin, so He eats. But 4 days later, Dies when Supposed to. FF is the sundown after the last day of official Passover, so His Death still occurs at the right time so He can be the promised FF.

The Jonah analogy was only a way to describe the fact the prophecy would be fulfilled, and to clue in the hearers that the calendar wouldn't be intercalated properly.

Pentecost is a function of OFFICIAL Passover. Sanhedrin count then again matters, so no 3.5 gap as you're thinking, because Pentecost was based on the official calendar, not on what should have been Passover.


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PostPosted: 25 Feb 2016, 02:40 
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I got ya. Still, I think the 57 days of the Calendar reflect Abraham's 53.5 years, and I think the 3.5 days that Jesus spent in the grave have a connection to the first half of the Tribulation.

I don't know. If there is a connection, the Lord will show us soon enough.

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PostPosted: 25 Feb 2016, 06:41 
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I reparsed the rest of the chapter. I think you'll find it interesting.

126=14+112

217+70=147

I changed the 105 back to 35+70. You might not agree with that, but its a syntactical grey area for me. I feel like verse 15 and 16 is more of a compound sentence with the parenthetical joining them together.


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PostPosted: 25 Feb 2016, 07:03 
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Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
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Wow, much better, thank you! I'm beginning to understand why the metered paragraphs play as they do, have done but not posted more videos on the big picture nature of the paragraphs.

Now for some minor quibbles. Verse 15 in the reparse of your prior post s/b 44 not 35. Those last nine are counted in your verse 16 but don't belong there. So it parses instead as 44 and 16, not 35 and 25.

21a is not broken properly. You can't separate a noun from its adjective, so at very least megale belongs on the line with thlipsis, so is 10 syllables not 7. Break by clause, not by when you see sevens. Text flow goes by clause, and the writer sevens based on clause, not raw syllable counts like modern Judaism does.

So you'll notice 21b is 21 syllables when megale is moved back where it belongs, to 21a. So then you can see the 21s are paired, a sign of deliberateness and of correct parsing.

I get 50 syllables for verse 38. That's kinda important, to separate them, as the syntax calls for it.

There is a parallel between 57 days and the 57 years, with the 53.5+3.5, yes. Idea is to remind everyone of the timetable. As for changing back to 35+70, the parsing is wrong, as I tried to explain in the first comment video. You have to break by clause. At first when you're just trying to see if a passage ends sevened, it's not important. But to understand the meaning of each 'paragraph' you must parse by clause.

As for the subdivisions, well I'll look at that, hopefully it becomes clearer. Did you think about the paragraph themes?


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