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 Post subject: Human Cloning
PostPosted: 03 Dec 2015, 04:51 
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Joined: 12 Nov 2015, 23:39
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVJNRbLA-N0

Its been reported in the last few days that a Chinese Cloning Company is already capable of cloning humans on a large scale. For now, they say they are holding off because of negative public reaction, but hope in the future to proceed. I suspect that human cloning has been around for a while now, just kept secret. Government and military prototype technology is usually always 10 to 20 years ahead of what is released for public consumption.

I know it is a sensationalized subject, the stuff of sci-fi and horror novels, but I will pose the question anyway. Can a human clone have a soul? If so, why, and if not, why not? If the clone is implanted in a human mother for its gestation period, I don't see why it would be any different from any other human born. But what if clones were mass produced in tanks? What if their growth was accelerated? What if the process was purely synthetic from start to finish? I would think that if it survived, it would still have one despite this odd and unnatural process of being "born." God would still have to honor a human body with a soul.

I know that will disappoint the writers of horror novels. :thumbdown:

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"Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?'---Jesus Christ


"You seem to think because you have chicken to go you're in luck."---G. Lightfoot


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 Post subject: Re: Human Cloning
PostPosted: 03 Dec 2015, 12:19 
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Well, maybe two separate issues: a) can they really produce a clone that is ALIVE, soul life or otherwise? For I doubt that. But if so, then b) does it have a soul? The difference would be obvious, as a clone with no soul is just another kind of animal, here one that looks human.

Whether God would create and impute a soul to a clone, I don't know. Maybe He would, maybe He wouldn't. The Bible's point is that human life is solely God's sovereign decision and creation, not the production of a womb (i.e, Gen 2:17, Heb 10:5, all the 'I formed you', 'I called you', 'I made you' verses). Pity the prolifers spit on the Sovereignty of God and want to pander the issue with Caesar.

So would it matter if humans could be cloned? I don't see why it would matter, as if they really end up being human, God alone made them.

Just sayin'.


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 Post subject: Re: Human Cloning
PostPosted: 03 Dec 2015, 13:27 
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Joined: 12 Nov 2015, 23:39
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Well, it would only matter if there were human bodies walking around out there without souls. The stuff of horror novels. We have enough self-inflicted zombies as it is without throwing an actual assembly line manufacturing process into the mix.

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"Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?'---Jesus Christ


"You seem to think because you have chicken to go you're in luck."---G. Lightfoot


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 Post subject: Re: Human Cloning
PostPosted: 03 Dec 2015, 14:26 
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Well, that's what Hebrew 'golem' means. Body without soul. David uses it in Psalm 139:16, usually mistranslated 'unformed substance' in English Bibles. It's got a Frankenstein meaning in Jewish culture.

David Duke knows that well, and uses it to get the stupid prolifers to become anti-semitic. Little do the latter know, that 'golem' is a Bible term, not merely a Jewish understanding that there is no soul in the womb.

So what would these soulless bodies be like if they really lived? Well, but is there any PROOF that they actually live? I bet not.


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 Post subject: Re: Human Cloning
PostPosted: 03 Dec 2015, 14:59 
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brainout wrote:
Well, that's what Hebrew 'golem' means. Body without soul. David uses it in Psalm 139:16, usually mistranslated 'unformed substance' in English Bibles. It's got a Frankenstein meaning in Jewish culture.

David Duke knows that well, and uses it to get the stupid prolifers to become anti-semitic. Little do the latter know, that 'golem' is a Bible term, not merely a Jewish understanding that there is no soul in the womb.

So what would these soulless bodies be like if they really lived? Well, but is there any PROOF that they actually live? I bet not.


Well, if a human body was walking around without a soul, then it would just be animal life. But no, I don't think that exists either. If there are human clones, I think God would impute them with a soul, just like He does with test tube babies or any other human body instigated by a process other than coitus.

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"Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?'---Jesus Christ


"You seem to think because you have chicken to go you're in luck."---G. Lightfoot


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 Post subject: Re: Human Cloning
PostPosted: 03 Dec 2015, 16:53 
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Yeah, good points. Up to Him.


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 Post subject: Re: Human Cloning
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2015, 12:06 
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Joined: 14 Sep 2015, 13:11
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I've always thought it of it as God imputes a soul to a frontal lobe if it can support it in lieu of grave variables (I mean, this would explain why the mentally ill still have souls). So far I don't have any proof that God *hasn't* imputed a soul into a frontal lobe.

There was this kid who didn't have a brain and only a brainstem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMlVNFpzKNI

I'd have to argue there that there is no soul in that instance since... a soul can't run on a *brain stem*.


I suppose cloning isn't so much the question as genetic engineering. What specific sequences of DNA are required to the point where soul imputation is invalid? Obviously the brain has a system (and seizures are neural chaos), but because one can operate with half a brain and severe brain damage... it's hard to say.

Of course genetic engineering can eradicate corrupt traits, like sickle cell anemia or colour blindness (and technically blue eyes are a corruption as well-- since the melanin deployment is prematurely halted on the iris: which is why most albino humans have blue eyes as well). I think that would be great to be honest, but modifying human genetics poses a lot of problems so I don't think society will ever accept it. People are difficult enough to convince that GMO foods are okay (I am fine with GMO foods).

*on the topic of eye colour, probably the best compromise is green and then amber being next (both of which are less common than blue and dark brown). The two 'extremes': dark brown allows better day vision, but blue allows better night vision (not for contrast but for seeing things in the dark with low levels of light).
Sidenote: I may be a bit biased since my eyes are neither blue nor dark brown, but I've noticed blue eyed folks have trouble seeing in the sun, and dark brown eyed folks can't see very well in the dark. Heheh.


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 Post subject: Re: Human Cloning
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2015, 23:11 
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Well, eye color doesn't require an assumption of imperfect forming. As for a brain stem only meaning no soul, who can say? The point is the soul is imputed or not at birth, so if not alive, not human. So since this 2-year old is clearly alive, he'd likely be ensouled and definitely would be in heaven when he dies, no?


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