FrankForum (Frankness IS Forum)

Really need a thread on the sequence. What follows below I typed as a comment, here. Video should be titled 'Mark of the Beast' with Craig Schaeffer and Eric Roberts, and is viewable in frankforum, here. But you can ignore my comment, just come up with what you think the sequence is, BACKED UP BY Bible verses. For surely the Rapture movies are bad, and need better information, for all we know the Rapture can happen now or 1000 years from now. Folks will need to know ideas on how to read the sequence, once it happens.

This sequence comes from reading the Greek after hearing Thieme teach Rev line by line for four years. I have all the tapes in multiple sets (reels, maybe some cassettes).

My parsing of the Tribulation is as follows:

1) Seals are the Grand Summary: Cliff Notes of the Angelic Conflict (Thanks to RBT's spiritual gift).

2) Trumpet Judgements are for the 1,295 days: Before Abomination of Desolation.

3) Vial Judgements are for the last 1,260 days: After Abomination of Desolation.

Based on my interpretation of the Wedding Feast in relation to the Darkness Outside;

-144K are saved/sealed first, as God's servants (Rev 7:3).

-144K invite the world to the Wedding Feast but world rejects invitation (Rev 9:20-21).

-After mid-point, the 144K extend a second invitation (on God's behalf) and are martyred for it. This time many are saved, and many still refuse (unto death). See Rev 11:11 & Rev 14:1-7.

-Then Jesus returns on an 'unknown day and hour'.

We have 2,556.75 days (7 Solar Years) of Tribulation to account for here. My opinion is as follows:

-The 144K are sealed in first 35 days.

-1st wedding invitation is sent in the first 1,260 days.
>Day 1 of first 1,260: Flying angel gives the "three woes " warning. Then the Fifth Trumpet announces the advent of Apollyon.

-2nd wedding invitation is sent piggybacking the Abomination of Desolation for the duration of the final 1,260 days.

-Jesus' early return (early by a matter of hours), makes room for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, before the 70th Week completely ends, and the Millennium begins.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, where are you getting 35 days? The difference between 1295 and 1260? At the end of the Daniel series, Lesson 45 I think it was, Thieme was playing with the Daniel 12 numbers of 1335 and 1290. Are you factoring that in?

There's an overlap, yes, but it might be at mid-Trib -- due to the earthquake, as a result of which the statue is flown in/made? -- and the 144K sealed/saved might actually be saved much more rapidly or maybe more slowly, but theoretically it's a prediction that they will be saved at the beginning, so they can have a ministry. Else I don't see where the 35 days comes from? Do you feel like elaborating?

@ Brainout

Right now my outer darkness theory is my strongest support:

35+1260+1260 days = 7 Solar years (take up to a day for the Second Advent and Wedding Feast).

I'll try to elaborate more later.

35 days for announcement of the Wedding Feast to come.

1260 days for 1st invite

1260 days for 2nd invite

Overlapping 1335 days is for early-bird exit.

**********

Now that I think about it, I'm leaning towards the Sealing of the 144K being limited to the first 7 days of the 35 days. This would be the short time that the 4 winds are held back for the sake of Sealing the 144K. Then immediately, the first 5 trumpets are blown every 7 days. Thats just my assuption for now. I feel that the equidistant intervals makes the most sense.

Four Trumpets blast every 7 days (chronologically) after the 144K are Sealed, then the flying angel announces the "3 woes". The 5th trumpet would then start the first 1,260 days.

So the first four Trumpets are to gain the world's attention to announces the coming Wedding Feast.

The 5th Trumpet kicks off the first 1,260 days while the 144K extend the first invite.

The Abomination of Desolation kicks off the second 1,260 days and the second invite.

The Trumpets 5 and 6 are 2 of the 3 Woes, so they are separate from the first 4 Trumpets.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I hadn't noticed this before, but in the Parable of the Wedding Feast in Matt 22, two separate gropus of slaves are sent out by the King to invite guests.
In Revelation, we see two groups of people sent to witness on two separate occasions.

In the first 1,260 days, its the Two Witnesses. When they are killed by Apollyon, the torch is then passed down to the 144K for the second 1,260 days period.

We know that the 144K must be sealed before any harm comes to the earth, so this must be done before the Trumpets are even blown, but they'll need time to grow/take in doctrine, therefore the Two Witnesses (I suppose Moses and Elijah) are sent to proclaim the gospel as the 144K mature.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Wow, you always bring up such good points. While reading this post of yours, immediately I was reminded of how Noah sent up the raven and then the dove, and more than once.

So yeah, more than one group.

As to the 144K, they are coterminous with the Two Witnesses, if we call those two groups. But I'm not getting the connection to maturation. It's OT style, so why wouldn't God just communicate right away, and they are also maturing during that time?

They don't have to be mature to repeat what He says, even Balaam could do that. How many times have we known God was using us to 'say' something and we didn't even understand its import until later? God even used an ass (Balaam's) to communicate, so it's not necessary to be even human, for God to communicate through you; so not necessary to be mature, either.

@ Brainout

Do you remember how shy Moses was when God first asked him to speak?

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Toucher. in the fencing sense.

@ Brainout I decided to reply to the above here, as not to derail your other thread. I like to keep things organized.

We know that earth can't be harmed until 144K are saved (Rev 7:3), so they are believers for sure, but Rev 9:20 tells us that after the 5th and 6th Trumpets are blown, mankind still refuses to believe.

I'm looking at the Tribulation Sequence through the Matt 22 lense.

The Two Witnesses are given 1,260 days/42 months to minister (Rev 11:3). When we compare that to the Wedding Feast Parable of Matt 22, these are the first group of servants set out to call those who have been invited. They are ignored. Therefore in the first 42 months, no one believes.

The people who are alive on earth are the ones invited by the servants. So the ones left in the outer darkness (at least in Matt 22) are alive.

So here is my latest model for the Tribulation:

7+28+1,260+1,260+1= 7 Solar years

7 Days = Sealing of 144K
+
28 Days = Trumpets 1-4 (blown every 7 days to gain the attention of the world). Then the angel gives Three Woes in Rev 8:13.
+
1,260 Days = Two Witnesses start their ministry, marked by the advent of Apollyon (notice how Apollyon rises at the beginning of the Two Witnesses' ministry, and Apollyon ends it. Sometime within the first 42 months the 6th Trumpet is blown. No one believes.
+
1,260 Days = Apollyon kills Two Witnesses to mark the end of their ministry, and the 144K go out as the second set of servants (per Matt 22). This time, many are saved, and the 144K are mature enough to die in Christ. The Beast is given authority to harm believers for 42 months.
+
1 Day = Jesus returns to shorten the Tribulation for the sake of the elect. Just like in Matt 22, His return will mark the destruction of non-believers (who killed the servants). Then the Marriage Supper begins.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Wow, that's a really different sequence. Never heard of it before. Need to think it over. How do you account for the Petra verses, Rev 12, if no one believes during the first 3.5? How do you account for Daniel 12, which is a warning about when there's an escape hatch during Mid Trib, to get out of Jerusalem, clearly intended for believers? How do you account for the Lord warning in Matt 24 about when you see the abomination, to get out? Those are all directed for believers during the first 3.5 years...

Lol, you're absolutely right. I didn't think about Daniel's early exit. That absolutely debunks my theory. And that rules out Matt 22 as pertaining to the Tribulation since clearly there are people saved during the first 42 months.

This is why I love this forum, if you hadn't mentioned that, who knows how long I would have gone believing it.

I still think the 7+28+1,260+1,260 makes the most sense though, at least until I find something better.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Well, not trying to debunk. Have you heard Thieme's exegesis of Rev, line by line? Took 4 years. You can get it on DVD or mp3. I have maybe three sets of the four-year series on reels. But I have class notes, so if you start listening and you want to talk about a specific class, let me know. Maybe should be another thread, if you want.

In those classes and you can see how from Scripture (but it takes some playing with the math in Daniel 11-12), the first 3.5 years are The Two Witnesses (killed at Trib midpoint by Apollyon in Rev 11), AND the angel flying (maybe only at Year 3), AND the 144K. So those are the 'signs', in addition to whatever Exodus-like plagues are imposed.

I don't get where you see the first 35 days to save/seal the 144K (though the number is interesting, doctrinally means half-vote, God's Vote, but I didn't test to see if those passages were metered).

Each Trumpet is its own period. Actual intervals aren't stated, but 5th Trumpet is Year 3, Rev 9, baldly in the text. Going by Rev 12-13, the third angel sounding in Rev 8:10 would also be Year 3. So that implies Year 1=Trumpet 1, and Year2=Trumpet 2.

What underscores that interp, is that every New Year the trumpet is blown, Rosh HaShanah. But the seventh is AT the Mid-Point, hence the seven vials. So now we've got the problem of accounting for why so many trumpets, 3rd-6th are all in Year 3.

@ Brainout

Yeah, I'm in the Rev series you're talking about now, but he goes off into so many political tangents that progress is pretty slow. Don't get me wrong, I always learn somthing new. I'm somewhere in Chapt 2 right now and I'm also alternating with his James 4 lessons.

Could you explain how the 5th Trumpet is in third year? I'm interested in knowing that. I just get the feeling that Apollyon marks the beginning and end of the first 42 months. Thats why I fixed the 5th Trumpet at day 36, (which would begin the first1,260 days.)

Also, my model has the 144K being sealed before any Trumpets are blown, so that limits it to the first 7 days of the 35 days before the first 1,260 days.

Basically:
7 days for 144K sealing
28 days for 4 Trumpets at equidistand intervals

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

@ Brainout
What I gather from Rev 12, is that Satan is the falling star in the 5th Trumpet who lets Apollyon loose.
This lines up with the Three Woes after the 4th Trumpet. Again I dont see where you get the third year from. I see the sign in heaven which predicts the Great Tribulation and the vision of Satan falling which summarizes the first 1,260 days.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

For the third year meaning, look at Rev 9 and read it through Chapter 13. Any translation will do. Think over the timing of the events as you read.

As for Thieme's frequent meanderings in Rev series, yeah. I had been a taper prior but during those years was actually at the Church, and my notes are full of all the divergences. It was during Reagan so that's why. Thieme hadn't grown out of the politics bug yet. In 1992 Spiritual Dynamics, you see he has. Difference is shocking.

James 4 is just before 92SD, so you are probably seeing the transition now. I have a notebook for that, too, and all the classes. Really important series as a transition. 1991 Israel is part of it, too.

One-third of mankind dying at the 6th Trumpet?
One-third of the stars falling from heaven?

Is that what you mean?

I don't think that indicates timing. My guess is that the 1/3 fallen stars are the 200 million demon army that are led by the four angels from the Euphrates bed. They fell with Satan when he released Apollyon. I know that's not how Thieme taught it, but thats how I connect the dots.

1/3 of angels killing 1/3 of mankind. Similar to believers replacing fallen angels.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Rev 9 begins at Year 3. First five months, fifth angel's sounding, Satan comes doen, keys, then Tartarus release, Apollyon etc. Then the pause of Rev 10. Then Trib midpoint, killing of the Two Witnesses, everyone celebrates for three days, and then they rise, then a month in hiatus, presumably for the events of Rev 11, when the earthquake hits. Then the war in heaven, Rev 12, ending with Satan standing on the earth, Rev 13.

Yeah, I understand the chronology, I just don't see the whole 3rd year thing. I feel like Apollyon's release begins the first 42 months.

And why a hiatus in the middle? Where is the indication for that?

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, well let's look at the verses. There's no translation issue here, I don't think, so I used NASB:

• Rev 8:7 is the first day of the first year.
• 8:10-11 = Satan comes down, picture-in-picture, split-screen TV during Rev12, occurs at the third year but before he's thrown out of heaven so during the Rev12 fighting;
• 9:1, Satan petitioned for that key and uses it as part of the Rev 12 sequence of fighting God in heaven, so he gets his demand;
• Rest of Rev 9, first five months are reserved for torturing by the 200 million demons, again p-i-p for what's happening in Rev 12;
• Rev 11, Apollyon who came up from the Abyss in Rev 9, and after the Rev10 dramatic intermission (to set up the themes for the last 3.5 years).. in Rev11, he kills the Two Witnesses at Trib mid-point, which has to be a month after the first five months.
• Which is, when Satan gets thrown out of heaven, Rev 12.

So it looks like AFTER the five months ends, at the beginning of the sixth month, he kills them. So then the earthquake after the three days, then in the ensuing melee there's an escape window for at least the rest of the month. This fits well with the end of Daniel 12 difference between 1335 days and 1290 days, da? Forecasting, you'd better start obeying Christ's stricture on leaving without packing (in Matt24), beginning about 1221 days after the Trib starts, and no later than 1290 days after it starts, since the statue goes up on the 1290th day, when believer egress will be closed.

So it ends up being more than a month, really, sometime maybe mid 7th month of 3rd year, that statue is flown in or something, picking us up back at Rev 13. For they need time to reconstruct due to the earthquake, to make and fly in the statue from Rome, to establish communication: for starting at that 75 days, Satan indwells whoever is the western Anti-Christ, takes over, gets photographed as Messiah to wow people, makes treaty with the false prophet aka Jewish anti-christ of Daniel 11:35ff, etc.

Would make a great movie but awful time to be alive, if only Hollywood would tell the story as Bible does...

@Brainout

Yes, I see what you mean now, but I don't know if I agree.

Why does it have to be one Trumpet per year? If your thinking Yom Theruah, then that would be 7 Trumpets in 7 years.

Wormwood is described as a falling flaming mountain (not a star). Seems more like its a meteor or something.

Now in the the 5th Trumpet, a falling star unlocks the Abyss. Notice its a star and not a mountain. So this looks like Satan's exile from Heaven.

The locust that rise with Apollyon have a slightly different description that the army of 200 million. So I think the 200 million are the 1/3 of stars that fell with Satan.

So my model places Trumpets 1-4 within the first 35 days (God's vote to scare earth straight). Then Apollyon's 150 days of torture start the first 42 months. Sometime after the torture campaigns comes the slaughter of the 6th Trumpet.

Then at the end of the first 42 months, Apollyon kills Two Witnesses.

So like I said, 35 days to let people know the Tribulation is here, then it gets real as 5th Trumpet starts the 1,260 days.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

It doesn't have to be one trumpet per year. But Rev 8:10 forward is definitely the third year, has to be at its start, because Rev 9's 200 million are let out, torture for five months, Apollyon is among them, so not out prior, and at Trib midpoint kills the Two Witnesses.

Whether there's more than one set of 200 million or whether the description is appositive of the same 200 million, we can look at later.

For now, you've got some hurdles. In every Dispie sect I know and Scripture too, Wormwood is universally understood to mean Satan, Rev 8:11 depicts him as a star, not a mountain, same as in Rev 9:1; falling from heaven is not the same as being CAST OUT (Rev 9:1's piptw for fall, but ballw = cast out in Rev 12:9).

So you got to explain how you can reverse those Scriptures or find others which override them to agree with the position you're taking..?

Lol sorry, I confused the 2nd and 3rd Trumpets. So yeah, I can see Satan being Wormwood (bitter because his time is short).

But the locust from the Abyss had stingers on their tails, and they aren't numbered, whereas the 200 million have snakes on their tails. Thats just one of the differences, that seem pretty significant.

So you think Apollyon has to be released 150 days before the Two Witnesses are murdered. (By the way, does that 150 correspond to Noah's flood?)

Now I see why you think it has to be in the 3rd year.

I always thought Apollyon would terrorize people for 150 days (5 months), then hang back for 37 months until the time came to kill the Two Witnesses. Meanwhile, some time within those 37 months, the 6th Trumpet is blown.

I get you now. Don't know if I agree yet, but I get you.
That gives me something more to work with.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, well I'm not looking for agreement, only Scripture meaning we can prove. This is all the same group:
The Colonel maintains there are THREE demon armies. This is one of them.

Next, the Tartarus army, mentioned in Rev9:12-14, 17-19.

So now, verse 16: is 200 million 'horsemen' (riders) the sum total of both armies (cavalry portion), before going on to explain the 2nd's appearance?

I forget what the Colonel concluded and what he said was the third army. I haven't yet looked up my notes on this.

Why would some be in the Abyss and some in Tartarus?

I'm also interested with Apollyon's 5 months and whether or not it parallels the flood...like a flood of locust.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The abussos demons of Rev 9:3-11, I'm not sure why they are there, have to go look up my notes; but for Rev9:17ff's Tartarus, it's Jude 6 + Genesis 6 revolution, 2Peter 2:4 (which uses the term Tartarus, as does the LXX); and 1Pet3:19.

Apollyon was in abussos, or is Satan. Given the syntax of Rev 9:11, it seems like Apollyon is not Satan, but was down there with them. I don't see any text identifying him as Satan (you know, like sometimes the Angel of the Lord is later identified in context AS the Lord).

Unless, abussos is the generic term and for the same place, Tartarus is the official name, but used for Hebrew mayim. For in the OT, the term is used for 'the deep' as well. Verses (LXX): Prov. 30:16; Job 40:20; 41:24.

So Abbadon is not out in the world until that 3rd year, released by Satan, tormenting for the five months; after, he and the rest of the abussos demons seemingly must be part of the Army Groups (whether its total is 200 million or not).

Since your largest human Army Group is maybe one million, even with the demons being so efficient and of higher power, assuming a total of 200 million (not more) is staggeringly more than needed. So if the 'locust' Group(s) are outside that total..?

Again, I've not rechecked my notes or what others have said, am just looking de novo at the text. So nothing said is dogmatic.

Yeah, I forgot to talk about the 150 day parallel. Maybe it applies, because Daniel 9:26 talks about 'flood' .. of troops, Hebrew sheteph (LXX uses orge to translate it). Yet five months tormenting is only part of the whole. So too was the kickoff flood, though. The Flood lasted a year, video and its description's Word doc showing the verses is here: https://vimeo.com/channels/noahicfloodprecedence . You can instead just grab the doc in the description, and you can buy Lewis' dissertation in Amazon (which I have, and don't find useful).

I don't think Abbadon is Satan either, and I'm not sure that Tararus is opened with the Abyss at 5th Trumpet. I'd like to continue this portion of the conversation in an Abaddon thread. Will open that later.

Continuing with the flood parallel, it does say the 4 angels of the Euphrates are "reserved for the year, month, hour, and day". Is it possible that Abaddon's 5 months start off the year of terror? Like Noah's flood?

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Oh yeah, possible. What's striking is that the trumpets seem to go Trumpet 1=Year One, T2=Year Two, then what.. 3=Year Three, but 4567=Year Three also, as if concatenating the interval to monthly. For there's that 35 or 45 or 75 day hiatus at the end. Thieme had a different interp of it in the last class on Daniel, thinking it was an extension of time after the Trib ended, if I recall, so I'm accounting it differently, same 2556.75 but with the hiatus in the middle, counting 1335 backwards from the 2556.75 to get the Matt24 exit window in Rev 11 during the earthquake.

Overall, so maybe there is a parallel to the Flood Chrono, for the 150 is subdivided, too. Again, all this is preliminary, and I didn't parse the Greek to see if it's metered in Rev9. The Rev meter itself I only barely started, http://www.brainout.net/JohnDatelineMeters.htm . Change extension to 'pdf' if you don't have Bibleworks fonts, so can read the Greek.

Ok. So flood started on what would be Pentecost, right?

So lets try to think like non-believers during Tribulation right now. I get stung by Apollyon's thugs and am in total pain for 5 month. That may not be enough to make me believe in Christ, but Apollyon is on the Anti-christ's side. Why would I race to the line to get my 666-mark, when Apollyon just tortured me for 5 months?

What if after the Two Witnesses are resuscitated, the ones who were stung, survive to believe?...Since the Flood started at Pentecost. Do you get me?

And what about those killed by the 200 million? They aren't believers, but are they against the Anti-christ & Co?
Like I said why would the world race to serve a Beast that is in league with mass murderers?

That makes me wonder if Apollyon and the 4 angels of the Euphrates are leading a world wide fascist revolution on behalf of the Beast? Can't kill the believers, but they can kill whoever tries to "make war with the Beast".

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Not following you through all the specifics here. The 666 mark, whatever it is, wouldn't necessarily be sought because someone likes to have it, but because you can't live without it. So think of Apollyon etc as SS, and folks cave in. Just like Hitler's Germany. That's also in keeping with the end of your post, below and above.

So now the question: Why did people cave into Hitler and Stalyin and Mao? They were all mass murderers. Here's why: go watch old Hitler movies the Nazis made, on Youtube, read the neo-Nazi comments. Click here and do that. Quite chilling.

So that's one reason they might LOVE to 'race' as you say: the believers/jews are blamed, so the regime stirring up the hatred of the masses, can use that hatred like a laser canon against believers and Jews. It's not like we've never seen regimes do that before. It's not like we don't see irrational hatred of us now.

In all those dippy Trib movies, that's one theme they get right. Granted, we believers are pretty stupid, self-righteous and snarky, but we don't deserve the vehemence or the level of criticism we get, and GOD shouldn't be lumped with us.. but always is. I've always been critical of Christianity and Judaism since quite young, raised in both (child of mixed marriage). But never did it dawn on me that GOD had anything to do with what the Christians and Jews kept doing poorly. For many of us, that same 'history' is true. We don't lump God with the bad behaviors, for we know there is a difference.

But if you WANT to be able to say God is bad, you lump Him with people who are provably bad. Just as, I'm sure a few Jews and Christians in Germany were bad, that's how groups are: always a few bad, at minimum. So now, to tarnish the whole and God in the bargain, well... Kristallnacht isn't far away, and thus needing 666 or Nazi Party Membership isn't far away either.

So the vehemence is really against GOD, and when that happens, any argument or murdering can be justifiable, so long as the ones murdering are also against GOD. Happens today easily on a lesser level, Calvies banding together with other calvies no matter how goofy their arguments -- and everyone else is 'heretic', Calvie buzzword; Catholics with Catholics, same buzzword, +Inquisition; Muzzies with Muzzies, buzzword changes to najis, +jihad; atheists with atheists, buzzword changes to FSM.

Frankly, they are all quite irrational, no one stepping back to separate FACT from fiction. It's taking the fruit from the woman all over again.

FACTS: God exists or does not, Bible verse means xyz or does not. THOSE FACTS have nothing to do with what 'group' you like or belong to. But we go by the GROUP, not by facts.

Finally, I don't get why the thing starts on Pentecost. Care to elaborate?

I was just speculating.

I was thinking Pentecost, because that's the day Noah's flood started.

The waters persisted 150 days, and Apollyon's campaign is 5 months long. Then you have the 4 angels from Euphrates, "prepared for the hour, day, month, and year".

If there is a flood parallel, then does it follow the same schedule?

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, understood. I don't know if Trib is intended to follow the same schedule. Maybe yes maybe no. There has been a contention for centuries that Trib begins on Rosh HaShanah. No way to prove that, we don't know the day or hour, and EVERY generation can be the Trib generation, that's why we're all in Groundhog Day, Dan9:26c (or as Robbie Dean put it, 'time bubble').

That 'prepared' clause in Rev 9:15 is eerie. But of course God would know the timing, and we still don't.

Here's a short visual of normally "good" people getting caught up in the insanity of their fellow man. Its amusing yet telling. No one with Bible doctrine would get tripped up so easily in either an elevator or the Apocalypse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgRoiTWkBHU

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"Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?'---Jesus Christ


"You seem to think because you have chicken to go you're in luck."---G. Lightfoot

Yeah, but WHO has that much BD to avoid the peer pressure? Takes quite a lot, and even then you feel the pressure more keenly since you're more alive.

That's not a disputation, but an add-on.

If I walked into an elevator like that and everyone was turning different directions I would "lol" and ask everyone what they were doing. Call me an extrovert. lol

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"Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?'---Jesus Christ


"You seem to think because you have chicken to go you're in luck."---G. Lightfoot

LOL good rejoinder.

Was just reading the comments to a really boring Stalyin reminiscence video here. Notice how dead the speaker is. Imagine having a soul that small, focusing on inanities, never on the big stuff. Scary.

So now, look at all the neo-commies, commenting. So if you asked them what they were doing, wow: they'd want to shoot you.

Goes back to what you were saying in the Prez threads.

Just did a video with that assumption, reading Rev8ff live onscreen, commenting on the text. But not posted, because my video is boring.

Idea that trumpets were sounded for events and times, annually, monthly, holidays, convocations, so that's why the trumpets are used here.

So as I was talking, it occurred to me you can read the third trumpet as Year 3 Month 1 (beginning, first day), fourth as Year 3 month 2 (again beginning), so then fifth -- which begins Rev 9 -- would be Year 3 month 3 (again beginning).

So look: Abib/Nisan, Ziv, Sivan (month when Pentecost begins). That plays into a different common contention about when Trib begins, but yet doesn't confirm it, as there are TWO accounting years, and the one beginning in Abib, is regnal (as well as sacred, Judah's kings dated their reigns from Abib 1).

So it wouldn't matter if the Trib began 'on time' at the beginning of Rosh Hashana. It would still be deemed the third year, but now maybe the actual month is depicted: on the sacred/regnal calendar, which still doesn't tell you whether Trib itself began PER that calendar, or the other one (or any at all).

And notice that's playing to Noah, too: whose birthday, going by the math, is likely what we now call 1Passover.

I ended the video on that idea, didn't spend any time explaining it. Not sure the video is necessary, as the idea is probably clear to you already.

. .

Now, what if:

1st Trumpet lasts a year. So the 'advertisement' that the Trib has begun, is not a bunch of suddenly-empty clothing falling on airplane seats and sidewalks; rather per BIBLE, lot of firey hail mixed with blood, which burns.. 1/3 earth, 1/3 trees and all grass; but it takes time for the pundits to analyze and calculate the damage extent. Hence I'm thinking it takes a year. So too, did the Exodus plagues. So too, was Noah in the boat.

. .
2nd Trumpet occurs Year 2, and is remedial, since they didn't learn from Year One: your average pundit will call it an asteroid, and claim that the sea to blood is some kind of chemical in the asteroid, and all the dead fish and wrecked shipping, take a year or so for recovery. Meanwhile of course, some have calculated and notice oh, one third again and begin to think of Bible, but most others scoff.

3rd Trumpet occurs Year 3, on Passover (Noah's Birthday). Satan comes down JUST LIKE YEAR TWO ASTEROID, does the destruction himself (that third), and many people die. Objective is to create a catastrophe and blame believers for it, preparatory to announce himself as Messiah (for of course he knows the Trib sequence, too). So he wants people to believe his version of Bible prophecy, so he can a) win over the apostate, and b) bop believers into captivity or death. Cuz, now he can use the past 2 years, to make everyone want him (well, whoever he indwells, plus some guy in Israel who'll end up as the front man).

So oh how convenient, for REAL DEMONS to come out of imprisonment, beautiful and deadly.

4th Trumpet occurs 30 days later, since if you knew your Bible, you'd know to start counting the Omer at the end of Passover week, which including Passover's start (for those who do NOT know Bible and miscount it from the beginning).. is 30 days.

5th Trumpet occurs 57 days after Passover started, which is real Pentecost.. 50 days after the end of Passover week, per Numbers 28:26 which Jews perpetually misread. Even the misreaders all know the importance of 56.. or will know, by then (it's the most common meter in the Bible, difference between Passover and Pentecost, and Pentecost to 9th Av, amply documented in the Isaiah 53 meter, here).

So the five months of torture then begin, and end (say) the 12th or so of Bul. Per ISBE, that's when Gobyras took over Babylon in the famous underwater invasion sequence Cyrus used, with his uncle Darius the Mede, running the show. Maybe exact anniversary of mene mene tekel upharsin.

Sixth Trumpet then blows. Get the pun? Kicking off the sixth month! Now the 2nd demon army (not even pretending to be human, since the fake Messiah is supposed to have angels at his command, right) -- comes up and out. Killing what? 1/3 one-third ONE THIRD of humans. In the name of Messiah, of course!

Satan wins now no matter what. If they believe HE is the Messiah, then they side with him (if only to escape death). If they don't, they learn to hate 'Messiah', which he's not but Jesus is. No doubt it will be like Hitler's Germany, where the initial targets were Jews and anyone who couldn't be used to 'help the cause', to weed them out, make the remainder easier to manipulate. Which of course, this SS de novo, would do.

We know the 7th trumpet is at midpoint. We know the Two Witnesses are killed at midpoint. All that is introduced to us during the intermission tableau/mime of Rev 10 and first half of 11. So then all of Bul ends the sixth month+ maybe 12 days, and when the six month ends it's Trib midpoint, too. (This would support those who contend Trib begins on Rosh HaShana, which maybe was the old pre-Church schedule, I've not yet found it in Bible.)

So maybe just in time for 25 Chislev, the month following Bul, aka Chanukah, the LORD's birthday, our boys the Two Witnesses, get killed, or resurrected, or the earthquake happens.. or that statue is flown in.

And someone will say, 'well that's past the midpoint'. Not necessarily, depends on when the Trib actually began. Here, the accounting year is Jewish sacred. In terms of absolute time elapse from Trib start, and whether you're accounting solar or lunar, the actual date can still be Trib midpoint, 3.5 years after it actually began: there's maybe a 15-day variance, for example, between solar and lunar at this point (so 11/12 Chislev, 30 days later, is accounted by many lunar-keeping Jews and Christians who don't know Bible.. as Chanukah).

Stopping this rough-draft scenario, here.

Excellent brainstorm. Very thought provoking and if you do get around to uploading that video, I will absolutely watch it.

I happen to believe that the Tribulation MIGHT begin on Yowm Theruah for two main reasons:

1). In Ezra's day, Jews re-entered the Land from Babylon on Yowm Theruah. Whether the reference to leaving Babylon in Revelation is figurative or not (I think its quite literal), it does parallel Ezra. And that would not be the first parallel to Ezra, drawn in Revelation.

2). The Two Witnesses are killed and rise 3.5 days later. That screams Passover to me. If Passover is midpoint, then Tribulation starts in Rosh Hashana. That would still apply to the future Tribulation since Revelation was written as an update.

That's all I got for now. Need to do some number crunching.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Ok. What if we reversed the flood parallel?
Noah's flood started on 11 Sivan which became Pentecost.

What if Apollyon starts his 5 months on 11 Khisleu instead? If the bisected calendar is intended to mirror itself, then 11 Khisleu would be the mirror to Pentecost, right?

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Yeah, you can argue that, but notice how if the Witnesses are killed on Chanukah (or resurrected, or the statue flown in), HIS birthdate (and the initial dedication date of the Temple Foundation, Haggai 2), that the whole of Rev 11 is witty. For your death day is your birthday, to heaven. They are standing at the Temple near its foundation, the Holy of Holies, fending everyone off for 3.5 years.

So too, 2nd Temple foundation began construction and got completed, then got stuck, hence Haggai was sent to chide Seed of Baal who God in Haggai 2 appoints Seed of Christ.

BTW, this would end up meaning that Trib starts on Pentecost. Just like Church did. Just like Noah's entrance into das Boot. Just like harvesting the Gentiles is supposed to. For technically, the remaining 3.5 on Abraham's too early maturation has to be paid back first. So if Chanukah when the two witnesses go up, now we are on Jewish time again but the fiscal year is HIS BIRTHDAY, same as 2nd TEMPLE's.

Yeah, Chanukah mirror to Pentecost (when John the Baptist born). So then the question for you is, does the math work so well in reverse? I didn't test it, since you will be.

The math works for my 35+1260+1260 model 14 Abib being mid-trib, but I doubt it works for yours. The problem is that I just can't prove or disprove any of it yet. So I'm stuck having to juggle multiple theories. It's rather frustrating.lol

But how does Chanuka mirror Pentecost? Chanuka is 24 Khisleu. The mirror to Pentecost would be 11 Kisleu: Yowm Theruah+14+57 days. Chanuka would be 12 days later.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The mirror happens when someone's using lunar years instead of solar, as you are doing. So using lunar, the 'new' year begins 5 days too early. This is why Christ died on True Passover but celebrated official Passover 4 days early, as I tried to show in http://www.brainout.net/PassPlot.htm . The Jews had not intercalated for solar. Current scholarship seems to conclude that they only intercalated to create Adar Sheni every three or six years. The Bible shows that only one year wasn't intercalated, so apparently it's the first of a new delay cycle by the Sanhedrin. (Compare the wit John 12:12 compared to 13:1, skip of five days (4 in-between), then end John 18 versus Exodus 12, and you'll see he concatenates 4 days, playing on the 4 days from Arrest to Crucifixion as Preparation of the Lamb versus Slaying.)

So: if using lunar, there's a five-day 'drift' by year-end, so by three years, that drift is 15 days. 11+15=26, but as you know Jewish time a new day begins piggybacked on the old day, so then 25. Technically, 24th after sundown, so if there's a leap day or some other drift in the vernal equinox then 11+15 can equal 24 or 25.

Remember, the numbers would be there so the Trib folk can calculate where they are. So for all we know, this brainstorming thread will end up having at least some right answers they will somehow find. There have always been and will always be a lot of false ideas. So here, the calculation METHOD being fleshed out, will likely help. We won't be here. They will be alone. How they will find this thread when you and I will be dead, who knows.

If I recall correctly, at the 2009 Chafer Seminary conference or maybe in his studies at that point, Robbie Dean posited a hiatus between Rapture and Trib Begins, kinda like you are doing. I am not sure of the details.

EDIT: notice that a mirror can work in reverse, so now we have either a Chanukah start or a Pentecost start to Trib. I pick Pentecost as it makes Church time 'even', starting and ending on the Harvesting of the Gentiles. Now, that plays into your posit of delay (which I don't hold to, but Robbie Dean does), for then the time between Pentecost and Rosh HaShanah is likely for the "hiatus" (Dean's term for it, as I recall, but you can find out from his church, I don't go there).

So now, back to Noah. The next benchmark after the 150 is 93 days, Gen 8:5 (use LXX, not BHS). So the gap is 93 days. It won't work, from Pentecost. By contrast, if 12 Chislev solar=Chanukah lunar is midpoint, then +93 takes you to 15 Adar, the 'sixth month' of the civil calendar, too, aka Purim.

Or something like this. For you really hit the nail on the head when you posited a comparison with Noah's timetable. ONLY GOD CAN ORCHESTRATE TIME. So no matter what excuses people come up with, if stuff that happens is otherwise explained away, then how come it's always happening on BIBLE dates? Hmmm? That, no one can invent or explain away.

Of course, our problem then will be that we've messed up our calendars. The Kaluach is way off since Josephus, 346 years too short, they cut out the Persian years (Google on that; so it's really Year 6121, not 5776). Pope Gregory cut 10 days from our calendar in the 500's (I want to say it was in 582), and I forget all the adjustments after that.

So God will be doing it likely at a poetic time for doctrinal meaning, but many who don't care to learn the BIBLE's calendar will miss it. In retrospect -- meaning, for those then alive and learning Bible -- it will make perfect sense.

This sounds like predicting the day or hour, but in fact you see we cannot: if only because, we've messed up our calendars so much.

Im not using a lunar year. I'm using Rosh Hashana as the starting point instead of Vernal Equinox. So Rosh Hashana+14 days mirrors Passover+57 days mirrors Pentecost. Thats 11 Khisleu, right?

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

RH+14=Passover start, and that's when Sukkot starts. It too, lasts a week. So if we count 57 from Sukkot start, that's 14 Tishri/Ethanim +57.. yeah would take you to 11/12 Chislev. On solar. But remember, they won't be counting solar, they will be counting lunar, so to them the SAME COUNT ends up meaning Chanukah, if not intercalated for three years (which is likely, as Judaism will be in hiding by then).

But now, how do you count the five months, and how do you justify the initial 35 day hiatus, with what Scripture? I'm not trying to dispute, but to clarify.

I think the Two Witnesses would probably resolve any calendar disputes.

Im thinking Rosh Hashana starts 35 days. Then starts the Two Witnesses' 1260 day ministry, but Apollyon would rise 35 days after Two Witnesses begin.

So 35+(35+1225). Or 70+1225. That would still place Apollyon in first year, not third. I'm not sure he has to kill witnesses immediately after the 5 months.

Lets say the 5 months dovetail with the 200 million assault: 150+215=365. The 35 day warning from the Two Witnesses + 5th & 6th Trumpets combined would be 35+365=400 days total. Then at the end of the Two Witnesses' ministry, Apollyon kills them.

Again, I like the way it looks, but I cant prove any of it yet.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Well, there are so many hurdles to overcome with that scenario. You'd have to contend Satan falls immediately, justify how 35 days, why not solar: because 1260 is lunar, not solar; solar midpoint is 1278.375, 2566.75/2, and Rev 11 says they trample for 42 months AFTER, and 1260+1290=2550, which is more than lunar, a week less than solar.

Did you meter Rev 9 or 11? I didn't do that yet.

No, have not metered any of Rev. Even if I did, I wouldn't know how to understand it.

1260 are not lunar. A lunar year has 354 days, not 360.

But in either case, I'm using the Solar calendar, over laying the 1260 days. Either way, there is a 35 day hiatus somewhere. Its either in the beginning, middle, or end. I can't justify a hiatus in the end, and to put it in the middle seems awkward to me. I think the two sets of 1260 days run back to back. Good days and bad days (Psalm 90). First 1260 good for believers, last 1260 bad for believers. To me that rules out a mid-trib hiatus.

The point of 1260 is not to be lunar or solar, because in actuality its neither. The point is to divide the days into 7s. It fits my understanding of the Solar calendar perfectly. All segments are divisible by 7, and the last remaining day is cut by the Lord Himself.

I don't see a problem with Satan falling early. It makes sense to me. And it makes sense to me that Apollyon be released early too.

Anyways, I have prove it and I don't know how. I'm hoping my Apollyon thread will shed more light somehow.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

1260 is lunar. 360 day year, 12 months. There are two types of lunar, and the 360 version is what Jewish calendar uses. It rounds the 29.5 to 30, that's all.

You can't just claim that 35 is right. That's like GeneZ claiming Pre-Incarnate Soul using words which don't mean only soul. 35 is a number, even an important number, but its usage is nowhere what you're claiming for the period.

That Satan falls early makes sense to you, is similar. Gene wants the PreIncarnate Soul to be true, it makes sense to him. But where is the Bible proof? Without that, you got nothing to stand on.

I mean, you guys can believe whatever you want. But without Scripture to back you up...

As for Scripture backup for the MIDDLE, there is some.. Daniel 12.

Statue is set up by 1290 days into Trib, it says.
Blessed is anyone who's been OUT of there for 1335 days!

Overlap is 45 days. IN THE MIDDLE. So 2556.75-1335=1221.75, beginning of the exit window Matt 24 warning. You can't put it at the beginning, and since it's a true solar year (which sevens at 364, time Noah in Das Boot), the mid-year isn't 1260, either. But, 1277.375.

Apollyon is not mentioned until Rev 9, Devil is not there at the beginning, so neither is Apollyon. So now what?

Sorry to be rough here, but we can't just claim something in Bible is true because we like it. Dunno about you, but there are many doctrines in the Bible which are not at all likeable, to me.

Don't worry about being blunt, I understand exactly what you're saying and you aren't wrong for saying it. I guess the only way to know the sequence for sure would be to meter Revelation like you said. I don't know if I'm prepared to do that. If I do, I'll post it. Until then, speculation doesn't mean much of anything.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, well I did meter Revelation 1, but I'm not sure what it all means yet. It should be an outline for the entire history (meter is 364, like Noah's year in da boat, plays on the four 91's in Eph1:3-14 structure), see http://www.brainout.net/JohnDatelineMeters.pdf or use htm or doc if you have Bibleworks fonts. Whatever it means, should be reflected in each other chapter, but how LONG the metering goes in each chapter, I don't know. I'm fairly certain each one is metered, given the import of knowing how to count the meter then. People then will have to be memorizing Scripture as in ancient times, for Scripture will be like Farenheit 451, then. God help us if we stop using paperbacks and hardbacks, for it will be easy to instantly kill Scripture on the internet.

I don't know when I'll have time to get back to the metering. I did vids on it, though, and will create the thread in TextCrit.

I was poking around in Revelation 7 and found what looks like metering. Found some in Revelation 8 too. I was trying to focus on the sealing of the 144K. I'm pretty sure its all metered. I just wonder where a good starting point would be for sequence? Would it be with the 144K or with the Trumpets, or maybe Chapters 9 & 11 like you suggested? Not sure.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.