FrankForum (Frankness IS Forum)

Note: This was typed in haste while on my lunch break, so just a brainstorm for now. I will take some time to support my ideas biblically later.

All this talk about weeping/gnashing teeth and outer darkness has me wondering how society will be classed during the Millennium.

The Church must be removed for the Trib to play out, so that justifies the resurrection of the entire Church body, but what about Israel, the believing gentiles, and the OT gentiles? How does that work? We know that at least some believers and non-believers will exist in the flesh during the Millennium, hence the need for King-priests.

Who are the King-priests? As far as I know, they consist of matured members of: resurrected Church, resurrected Israel, resurrected Trib gentiles, and possibly resurrected OT gentiles.

Those watching from the Outer Darkness so far are aborted kings from the Church Age.

So the question is, who enters into the Millennium as sinning believers? If some of them are jews, then not all of Israel is resurrected at the Second Advent. Ezekiel 37 talks about the valley of dried bones, which implies that only the dead of Israel get resurrection at Second Advent. Yet, we know that the Second Advent includes OT gentile believers too, since Job described watching Christ return in his own flesh.

Thats all for now, more later.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

ORDER OF RESURRECTION

I guess the best place to start would be the order of resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15.

There are multiple interpretations of the scripture quoted above, but in my opinion, this categorizes the resurrections from Christ forward.

1) Christ the firstfruits: As the prototype for the Church, our Lord was resurrected first, but in my opinion, this same resurrection is extended to the Church body as well (more support for a corporate hypostatic Church). We are the Bride, and therefore the Body of Christ (like how Eve was taken from Adam's body). Pentecost was the birth of the Church Age, so our resurrection is also associated with the harvest of the firstfruits. So this goes from Christ's own resurrection to the Rapture. Proof that Paul believed in Pretrib Rapture.

2) Those who are Christ's at His coming: This must be the resurrection of the OT saints, and the 144,000. Ezekiel 37 seems to detail the resurrection of the dead Israelites (dry bones) and Job 19:26-27 depicts Job's own resurrection at Christ's return.

3) Then will come the end: After the Millennium is finished, the remaining unresurrected believers (both alive and dead) would logically come next (Rev 20:5) in contrast to the Second Death (Rev 20:6).

By process of elimination, this is how I've come to understand 1 Corinthians 15:23-25. For verse 25 clearly states that Christ must rule until His enemies become His footstool.

Looking closer at the different resurrection categories, we notice that the resurrection at the Second Advent us not a full corporate resurrection like the Rapture is. Those "who are Christ's at His coming" are none other than the 144,000 of Israel, the and OT saints. But why wouldn't that include ALL slain Tribulation believers? Maybe it does.

The 144,000 are sealed on their foreheads and called the "firstfruits unto the Lamb".

As far as I can tell, the 144,000 are the firstfruits of the believers slain during the Tribulation. So they are resurrected at Christ's return where the rest must wait for the Millennium to finish. But, I'm also wondering if maybe the "rest of the dead" mentioned in Rev 20:5 might actually be believers who die during the Millennium? Again, why would ALL OT believers be resurrected, but only some of the dead Tribulation believers? I mean technically the Tribulation is Israel's time, therefore it is OT time delayed.

What am I leaving out so far?

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Going by Eze37 et seq., sounds like all the Trib folks who died also are resurrected at 2nd Advent. You caould say the same for Rev 17-19 which begins the Mill.

So the left-out part concerns where the non-kings reside among Church, during the Mill. I can't think of any verses which separate the kings from the non-kings. Kings need entourages, too. But I also cannot prove that there's no separation.

@ Brainout

Yeah, I'm leaning towards the entire body of dead OT and Trib being resurrected at once. But in this case, why only the dead in Christ? Unlike the Rapture (dead and living).

I also wonder what role if any the outer darkness plays in Millennium? Could this be where all loser-believers go to sit out the Millennium? If such a total segregation exists at all?

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

@Anonynomemon

Okay, well you got the Baptism of Fire at 2nd Advent. Living Trib believers remain, and the unbeliever in a kind of anti-Rapture going into Hades (not yet Lake of Fire). So at the end of Trib, beginning of Mill, you'd have people still alive both believers and unbelievers. If that's the correct interp, and so far I can't find anything better.

As for the Mill, I don't know if there is a segregation. It makes sense to claim one, but where's the verse saying that the non-kings are separated out to sit in the sidelines, and where those sidelines are. As I said somewhere, I remember my pastor speculating that several times during the 50 years he was alive and teaching, but whether he was thinking of the 'outer darkness' to justify that, I don't know. Should go through the 'outer darkness' classes, which I have on reels, but haven't gone through yet. Haven't yet examined anything on the web, either, re that interp.

@ Brainout

Well, this is what keeps me on this topic:

The Parable of Talents is about believers/kings recieving blessing/authority upon the return of their Master. So the Kingdom of Heaven must be the Millennium in this case.

In 1 Cor 15, it says all rule and authority is done away as Father recieves the kingdom.

I know that in this age equality is a satanic pipe dream, but so is perfect environment.

So what is this telling us? Maybe that God is succeeding at what Satan can not do (because he isn't God).

Millennium tests volition in perfect environment.

Eternal State tests the coexistence of volition in social equality, where no Good and Evil is present. This would be after ALL works have been judged, after ALL have been resurrected, after ALL sin natures are removed, and after King-priests have ruled. We may wear our precious stones (righteous works) as a badge of honor, but I don't see a permanent class distinction.

So maybe outer darkness is out side of the Millennial kingdom, or maybe its a distant portion of the kingdom, but either way the principle would be the same.

The question is, would it carry over into Eternal State? I'm leaning towards no. No weeping, no darkness, no authorities other than God.

Just what I gather so far. I need more scriptural support though.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

It's funny you were posting this, for I was offline looking at Luke 19. There, very much focused on the 'minas' of TRUTH given Israel which aren't spent properly. Notice that not all 10 minas are explained, but only 3.

Yeah, maybe outer darkness is outside the Millennial Kingdom. Carrying over to the eternal state, distance but not sorrow. But like you, not sure we got enough Scripture to say this, though so far it's certainly implied.

That's very interesting. I'm assuming that like the Parable of Talents, Luke 19 is about believers only, but what would it mean to be slain? Like Jesus said, servants will be judged by their own measure, so if you don't want to know Christ, He won't know you. This might put the outer darkness outside of the kingdom since they didn't want Christ as king in first place. If Christ's kingdom is all of the earth, then maybe outer darkness is the void of space.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Or on some distant planet. And that serves eternally too, for think: it's PAINFUL to be reminded of something bad. Seems to me one reason hell is separated is due to the pain, so we won't have to see it; and at their end, they think the pain is less to be in hell, than to believe. So they aren't (I'm guessing) seeing heaven, either. Not like the short distance between Paradise and Torments in Luke 16, for that was a temporary 'advertisement' which clearly didn't work after thousands of years.

So too, those saved who don't grow up will be pained to see Him too close and too often, so are kept distant, which is also what was elected? You know, how it's good to reunite with some people for the first few minutes, and then the pain of the past gets in the way? Or you have nothing to talk about, after that first enjoyment? Idea that the pleasure portion has boundaries, after which it's no longer enjoyable.

Not sure how far to carry this, but the idea that distance is a way to ensure 'no more sorrow' also, since we will still have free will.. but that nuance needs a lot more thinking through.

What you're saying makes sense. It kinda goes along with the new heavens and new earth for the Eternal State.

I'm thinking during the Millennium, the outer darkness will be a place of literal weeping and gnashing if they are outer planets. They will all look to earth from the distance as a constant reminder of what they surrendered. But I think the New Heavens and Earth will be created to suit everyone, and those in the outer darkness will be happy at that point, I guess. Like Hupostasis said, the 'no weeping or pain' statement seems to belong to Eternal State. Cant prove any of that yet though.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Yeah, and where's the proof that there will be 1000 years of wailing/gnashing, too? I mean, we're all speculating here, but the only definite wailing/moaning that we have recorded is for the BEMA in 1 Cor3, Phili3:18-19, and the GWTJ in Rev 20:11-16. It doesn't say those things about the Mill, though we know from Eze 37ff that there is some suffering for those not yet dead, and a rebellion at the end.

Well, I'm CLAIMING that's all we have. Do you know of anything intimating a longer period? God knows I could spend a hundred years looking at Scripture (I wish) and still miss quite a lot.

I sure wish our forebears who heard Him speak, bothered to pass the meaning down to their kids. So much guesswork. But there has to be something specific in Scripture, God would foreknow our forebears would be lax.