FrankForum (Frankness IS Forum)

Sometimes the simplest answers to complex questions the Lord places right in front of us. Its there, but we do not know what to do with it. After painstakingly and patiently debating someone who was far from being mature in doctrine... and to make matters worse, claimed to have an IQ of 180. I discovered that sometimes by knocking your head against the wall and never quitting has its dividends, if so ordained. This is one case in point..

This person claimed that the Trinity is body, soul, and spirit. Obviously, he pointed to the humanity of Christ for the body, and used something to show God is spirit. But, what really hung his picture on the wall was his use of OT passages to show the God is soul. Those passages he presented I simply told him were examples of anthropopathism. That God is not body, but spirit.(John 4:24) This seeming empty debate I unexplainably felt motivated to stay with. I keep trying to reason with him because a younger growing believer was also involved with the debate...

Well... here is what I believe became a case of having my eyes opened.

Jehovah as the Lord God of Israel tells us He has a Soul. This spoke of the pre-incarnate Lord, not about Jesus on earth.

Here are some examples of OT passages I speak of...












After many days of debate it suddenly dawned on me that the the soul of Jesus which entered the body born of Mary, was the same Soul of the Lord God of Israel! That prior to the incarnation, the Lord God of Israel had been always manifested as a hypostatic union, sans a physical body.

It explained how Jesus who was previously manifested as God could become as a man in every way. For, He laid down His right to function as He had been.. eternally existing in the essence of God (Phil 2:6-8), and made Himself to become as a man by means of Jehovah's soul. In doing so, He made Himself to be body, soul, and human spirit. His soul, unlike ours, was never created (can explain later).

To remain as a man He had to refuse to take back up to Himself His powers of Deity. Those unlimited powers He had known prior to the Incarnation. He had to remain as the perfect human to be our substitute for all humanity on the Cross.. That being.. Until He was finished His work of redemption and propitiation.. Now, He has returned to being in the state as the Lord God of Israel was. But, in addition to what He had been during the days of Israel, is now including a permanent glorious Heavenly body.

End of intro...

Grace and peace.

This actually is fairly interesting because solves the issue anonymenon and I were having about the hypostatic union pre-Christ (because 'ye are gods' demands a "God-man"). We ourselves become "godmen" as a result of Christ.

I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean here, however: "In doing so, He made Himself to be body, soul, and human spirit."

You'll have to elaborate on what "human spirit" is, as... we don't even have that (just: Body / Soul / Holy Spirit).

@ Hupostasis

I always thought the Holy Spirit revived our Human Spirit upon faith (born again: of water and SPIRIT) to make it a dwelling place.

Also, what defines the hupostasis of Christ? Is it Christ incarnated in flesh that results in hupostasis, or is it the fact that Christ had a human soul?

If the human soul is what made the Lord hupostatic in the OT time, then all believers are hupostatic since our souls are formatted after the image of God.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

@Gene: playing contrarian here, for there are issues to resolve.

The passages cited all use Hebrew nephesh, which doesn't necessarily mean 'soul' but 'life', 'inner thinking', and is translated with Greek psuche, same meaning. So you'll need to prove that 'soul' is the literal meaning as in Gen 2:7 for Adam. That's a hard thing to prove. But if there are other Bible verses to say it, then use those. Where are they?

So if God's using an anthropopathism rather than literal soul, still Divinity of Christ, but no pre-existing human soul. Or, is speaking PROPHETICALLY of the time when He will have a human soul, as in

Psalm 40:6, quoted in Hebrews 10:5, and Isaiah 53:10's im tasim asham naphesho (same word as in the passages you cited). So if you (Greek) or he (Hebrew) will give soul as a substitute for sin. So God-Father talks to God-Son definitely in eternity past, but 'will give' (lit., appoint) doesn't require the soul to yet exist.

Of course the other problem is that the BODY is created FIRST, op cit. No soul-less bodies and no body-less souls, anywhere in Bible in heaven or on earth. So how to justify/explain a soul with no body in Christ alone?

There are theologies making this claim, but I've never seen any Bible verses to support them. To just claim that every verse using 'soul' for 'God' ipse means 'God' has 'soul' is not good enough, since the term doesn't necessarily mean a literal soul, i.e., animals don't actually have souls, but 'soul' is used for their LIFE, like in Lev 17:11.

The word 'nephesh' itself has to do with BREATHING: it's a cognate noun of naphash, to breathe. So then implies no such thing as soul without body, and the BREATHING is proof there is a soul inside the body. But then again, wouldn't necessarily require every BREATHING being to have a soul.

Then, do angels have souls? We don't have anything saying they breathe anything. Yet they have mouths, or can be made to appear as having them. But if made of light, then they don't need to breathe or eat, or any of the metabolic processes we humans have. So how does that square with Christ having a soul but no body?

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

@ Genez

Got some deep and profound gnosis for you my friend.

Translate and interpret this:
"καὶ καθὼς θέλετε ἵνα ποιῶσιν ὑμῖν οἱ ἄνθρωποι, ποιεῖτε αὐτοῖς ὁμοίως."

I trust that you have the proper tools to convert that into some usefull epignosis.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

One last time, Gene: The word NEPHESH has been covered BY THIEME extensively, is in lexicons by scholars for centuries in agreement with what he explained, and the term is used pan-Bible to mean DIFFERENT THINGS. The use of anthropopathisms and morphisms is also well known, and Thieme is famous for explaining them also, so there is again agreement on BIBLE here. And, the text itself supports that.

So you have the burden of proof that ONLY 'soul' is intended when talking about God, since NOT only 'soul' is the way nephesh is used pan-Bible (with Greek psuche being the LXX and hence NT equivalent).

So you also have the burden of proof that 'hate' ONLY means the sin and is never used as an anthropopathism, especially when in verses where God is the subject of the verb.

This is all published material, which you denigrate and deny and instead ASSERT your own groundless positions absent answers to the above burdens, with no proof as to how your position is superior to Thieme's, the scholars, or Bible's. Which means, you're playing God yourself.

So no good can come from discussing this with you further, until and unless you actually DO YOUR HOMEWORK in lieu of maligning the homework Thieme and others for centuries have done, so we must respect THEM by bringing up valid objections. Which were you honorable, you would take the time to answer.

Finis. I won't be talking to you again.

TO OTHERS: at issue are several important doctrines which have been debated for years:

* Whether your soul existed prior to creation, which was a contention of the gnostics, both pagan and Jewish, and later Christians. So a variant of this is the Prototype Soul, the World Soul, the Original Soul. The doctrine is usually called 'prexistence of souls'. The so-called 'holy books' used to justify these doctrines are not Bible books, but wanna-be Bible books. Movies are made on the topic too.

*Whether your soul exists pre-birth, is a much larger topic and is contended a yes by Catholicism, and most notably today in the claims of so-called 'prolifers'. There's no Biblical support for the claim, and I've had to start making many to show how the Bible maintains you are not HUMAN until BORN because the soul. is made at BIRTH.

*My pastor also taught the foregoing extensively. So Christ Himself was God and God alone, until BORN, at which point a SOUL was created, Hebrews 10:5. My pastor exegeted that extensively, published tracts and did classes showing how Bible says you're not human until BORN. Whether or not one agrees with his studies is of course an individual journey one chooses to take. But if claiming to be under that pastor but claiming the opposite of what he taught as Gene is here doing, well.. then it must be called out. What PROOF is there of a contrary position? For we can present evidence of not human until born, and soul created at BIRTH, directly from Scripture (starting at Genesis 2:7).

*The topic of whether God 'hates' is also extensively covered in theology, with the general consensus (right or wrong) that such terms are anthropopathisms, meaning assigning to God human characterstics as language of accommodation for man to understand God better. So verses like Deut. 12:31; 16:22; Prov. 6:16 are understood to be juridical positions, not the emotion of hatred (God has no emotion). So to contend otherwise, would require special added evidence to prove how and why from Scripture, that such attitudes of God are literal yet not sin.

Sorry for this digression, but it seemed important to explain why the arguments in this thread occurred.

All quoted from an official RBT approved web site.




Colonel Thieme determined the word was to be Soul. His interpretation was that it was to be seen as an anthropopathism. The reason given, was that God's essence is not soul. He also taught correctly, that the person of Christ is one of having two natures. A soul being one of them.

That's all I am presenting, but with a different thrust. That the Lord God of Israel was always a hypostatic union, but without a body. Deity and Soul in one expression of the Lord God of Israel.

Once that can be settled in one's mind? It will make Philippians 2:6-8 easily and logicaly constructed into showing what took place. He (God's Soul) denied Himself to His right to function in his powers of His Deity. Having that accomplished, His Soul then entered the body which was prepared for Him. That is why we get to see Jesus calling the Father "His God." For He had made Himself to be as a man in every way, sans the sin nature. That could only be said if he were body, soul, and spiritually alive.

In the past there was no correlation made between the pre-incarnate state of the Lord God and his Incarnation state.. So, people concluded when show God has a soul in the OT that it was an anthropopathism. The Colonel, and others saw the Lord God of Israel being solely Deity. It never occurred to them that it could also speak of the pre-incarnate status of the Lord God of Israel who was later to become and be named the Lord Jesus Christ. Theology is alive and always growing. Its always entering into new phases of understanding that had been build upon the sound understanding which preceded.


Now... Judges 10:16, from the same RBT approved site...





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I have to agree with Brainout here. Jesus was eligible to represent us because He became one of us. That meant His human soul had to be created at birth.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

@ Genez

As far as I know, RBT taught that the Hypostatic Union was a short dispensation of its own lasting from the birth of Christ to His ascension. I disagree, I'm leaning towards the idea that the entire Church Age is a state of Corporate Hypostasis that was instituted after the prototype Personal Hypostasis of Christ was completed in its testing phase and approved by the Father.

If my assumption above is correct, then it would make sense that Hypostasis began at birth, since it in itself is was a prototype state of being.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

RBT also drew a parallel between the Alpha-Omega and the "Yehwah Eloheynu, Yehwah ehhad" (Lord is God, Lord is the unique one) statements.

He said the Alpha Glory was Yehwah Eloheynu (Lord is God).

The Omega Glory is Yehwah ehhad (the unique Hypostatic Union of Christ).

This implied that Hypostatic Union began at virgin birth.

This was in his 1981(?) series on Revelation if I remember correctly.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

@ Genez

I was referring to the Hypostatic Union as a dispensation on earth. I realize the Lord is still hypostatic today in heaven. Sorry, I wasn't expressing myself very clearly.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

@ Genez

Here is a problem that I see. The average human soul is created and imputed to the body at birth (breath of life). Yehwah-Elohim was Jesus in His preincarnate deity. If Yehwah-Elohim had a human soul from the start, that would mean His human soul had to forget omniscience to fulfill the doctrine of kenosis.

So either Yehwah-Elohim erased the memory of His own human soul only to re-learn the fullness of doctrine in His incarnation as Jesus...

OR, Yehwah-Elohim created a human soul for Himself and imputed it into the fetus of Jesus at birth.

It boils down to whether or not Jesus' soul was created as a new, empty vessel or an overridden hard drive.

I don't see the point in forgetting for the purpose of learning again.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.