FrankForum (Frankness IS Forum)

It turns out that my Zephaniah meter had some invalid elisions, so I started from scratch. This time, I did what I should have done in the first place. I did a total syllable count (counting all potential shewa syllables), and started eliding as I read the text. This is just Samex 1, but it is in a word doc format, so you can test alternate elisions yourself if you like. Hopefully I will be following up with Samex 2&3 soon. Let me know if you need a PDF copy.

I'm attaching an alternate version (PDF format to avoid problems), with different elisions. [updated 4/15/2017]

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, figured out the dates:
Zeph is contemporary of Jeremiah, who mentored Josiah.
Zeph1 written 642 BC, which is
56 years before Isaiah 53's prediction of Temple Fall (reinforced in Ezekiel and Jeremiah w the 70's)
35 years after Manasseh was age 21 (age of accountability)
21 years after Manasseh was age 35 (when he went south spiritually)
with Manasseh himself, then age 56 (not dead, but retired).
EQUIDISTANCE.
Daniel 9:11-12 uses 58 (Manasseh's age at death) as back to back bookends, see its Chrono Chart, http://www.brainout.net/DAN9V4-19HebOnePagerPARSED.pdf

I didn't know Manasseh age at death when writing up the Daniel piece. Someday will have to edit it. 2Kings/Chron text says he was 12 when Hez died, ruled 55 years but that includes the 12, for Hez made Manesseh co-ruler at the latter's birth. Not sure where I can prove that in Bible via text, but the MATH works that way.

Okay, I see why you're thinking ne'um YHWH is anaphora. Maybe it is. Amen legw humin certainly is an equivalent, and we know THAT is anaphora.

I was thinking the same thing, that amein lego humin was a shift from 3rd person to 1st person, from the original n'um Yehwah. However, it doesn't run through the entire Zeph meter like it did in Matt 24-25. So if it is anaphora, then why does it end in Samex 2?

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Good question. Seems like a timeline to me. Surely is one, tracking Isaiah, but why does it stop then at 12BC? Is there a 7 ellipsis? Why doesn't it stop at 33 BC like Isaiah does, WITH his ellipsis?

Enquiring minds, want to know.

See, here's the weird thing: if I insert the 364 ellipsis just after Isa53 verse 10 -- which ends at the end of the historical voting period Daniel keeps tracking to, 397BC when Malachi completed -- it works fine.

But it also works fine, if I insert the 364 at the end of verse 11. The hiatus in THAT case, takes me from 397-28-364, to 5 BC, the Annunciation.

I'm thinking the intertestamental years are highlighted, so peg the 364 after verse 10. Cuz I can't see why 367 would instead be stressed. Also, the syntactical break between v.10's DECREE and v.11's Him actually paying in TIME, seems more aptly suited to a 'year' in between, as a way of saying 'history' versus eternity past (v10).

I doubt the timeline stops at 12 BC. Samex 3 needs to be counted, and I bet it will take us to 4200 give or take 14 years. I metered it a few years ago and got 119, but I want to try it again.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, but there are a total of six samez's, last one lacks the letter, since ends the book. I'm trying to figure out why.

Seems to me that if what you say about samex 3 is true, the total should be 736 or 742. Daniel 9's total, is 742. Leaves out 56 from 5250 (in short, he sevens the count).

BTW, looks like Zeph1:4a is mistranslated. Hebrew says God will stretch His Hand OVER Judah and Jerusalem, and in the meter that year (at end of clause), is 516AD when the 2nd Temple completes. So read as PROTECTION, then the following clause about removing the Ba'als, makes more sense.

Back at the end of Zeph 1:3, the end of verse 3, 49 submeter, is when Daniel 9 datelines first, so Daniel is probably looking at Zeph 1:3, as well. At the point he prays, 538BC, indeed the Land was desolate.

Problem is, the Hebrew is adamah, not ha eretz. Why? I don't know.

Do you have the Thieme tapes on Zephaniah? I think I have reels, will have to go look. I've not studied that book.

I don't have Thieme's Zeph lessons. I'm still in Rev. Once I get past the 6th Seal, I want to start alternating with Jeshurun lessons.

What year did Thieme do Zeph?

Maybe HaAdamah is being used to mean the world, where HaEretz is used for the promised land???

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Well, I'll have to look up when Thieme did Zeph. It's in his pdf files, I'll have to find where I put them. Found the pdf, it's here: http://brainout.net/frankforum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=379&p=3009#p3009 BUT I CANNOT FIND ZEPHANIAH in it. I could swear I have reels. Will have to go look. I wonder where I put them (I have like 15,000 reels).

Okay, I found my checklist of the tapes I have. No Zeph taught, not even in the early catalogue. Malachi was 1968. Since Zeph preceded Jer, maybe the Zeph stuff is somehow taught alongside Jer. That series is VERY long, I have multiple reels of it. Not sure when I can get to it pre-surgery, tho.

As for ha Adamah vs Ha Eretz, that's a conundrum. Perhaps a parallel to Deut 32:8, idea that all history hangs on Israel, and that the prophecy of Temple Down means Earth Down if not healed, but that verse 4 in HEBREW (not English) seems to be a reassurance that God stretches His Hand OVER Israel to protect her, so that staves off the end of ha Adamah. There is no 'against' in the Hebrew I can see, but rather AL (over). Then the text promises to remove the Ba'als, etc which fits the protection idea.

The 418 BC is bald enough (syll 224 in Zeph1), prophecy of OT completion, ergo 'silence' (cuz listening, I'd bet). It equals Malachi 1:1 dateline 14, walks back to Nehemiah at END, and then Malachi 1:2 dateline 35, walks back to START Nehemiah, 12th year of Artaxerxes Longiamanus (465-425).

But 42 years later, is 376, and I'm not sure I get what's pegged. Malachi might have the answer in some prophetic passage, likely in Malachi 3, which is the last chapter. So I'm stuck again.

Closest thing I found re 376 was . Seems to say the turning point in Persian suzerainty was that battle, which was crippled in part due to politicking among the Royal Family back home in Susa. But I don't think Zeph is stressing Persia. Has to be something re Israel's involvement that year, since the Zeph 1:8 TEXT is about punishing Israel's PRINCES. It's got to be very important, to be likened to the very DAY of the Lord.

I need historical corroboration. Or, something prophetic and timed in Malachi? Maybe it's in the Maccabees; though not scripture, often historically accurate. But 1 Macc opens up after Alex dies.

Ha Adamah is only used in Zeph 1:2 and 1:3. Beg in Zeph2, it's ha eretz. Text SEEMS to indicate that Zeph1 is the decree, and Zeph2 and 3 are what to do to avoid it being carried out, idea that if Israel (re)turns and becomes faithful, Zech1 won't happen or won't happen against her.

Also, note:
642BC-4106=3464FAF
-5250=1786 years left on the clock (pre-Church) to end Mill.
-630 total in the first two samexes
1156 is remainder in the final four?

Maybe there are ellipsis insertions. Given how Zeph ends, I expect some, maybe?

Next, Jeremiah would elab on Zeph, as would Ezekiel, and for sure Ezekiel covers the Mill, so we might not know what Zeph covers, but at least it can be preliminarily mapped.

PS I'm having trouble reconciling the TEXT with the meter. Years still fine, but between 418BC and 299BC, text seems to be pointing at events within Israel, not Persia or Greece per se. I suspect other Bible books will elaborate on Zeph prophecy data, so we know what it means. But vetting it historically might be a pistol, as it's the intertestamentary period. Maccabees doesn't pick up until the Diadochi wars. Daniel 11 covers the interim in a sweeping marital way, and Mary tags it, but that's from 305BC onward.

Okay, I think much of the 418BC onward meter is resolved as to WHAT it references. But I'll start with the end, verse 18:

I think it needs to be broken into two clauses at the end, not the 17 shown. The revision would be 10 and 7,
As 10: כִּֽי־כָלָ֤ה־נִבְהָלָה֙ יַֽעֲ שֶׂ֔ה
As 7: אֵ֥ת כָּל־יֹשְׁבֵ֖י הָאָֽרֶץ׃

That last 7, lines up with Isaiah 53:11's penultimate clause for the same 18-12BC period,
tsadiq avdi l'rabbim. Each are 7 syllables, from start of 18BC to end of 12BC.
Makes sense that Zeph would tag Isaiah.

What makes this so cool, is that once the Temple is up, it is REPRESENTING the Isaiah text and the 'kaleh' in Zeph 1:18, esp. since 'end' signifies completion. Herod apparently finished Temple PRECINCT completion in (642-630) 12BC, which would enable mass visitors and storage, shops, etc.

Also means that Isa53's 364 ellipsis is between its verses 10-11, not 11 and 12, else this tag wouldn't work.

Earlier, Zeph notably benchmarks at syll 602, 40 BC which Mary used as her 35 dateline to also benchmark when Herod finished subduing Israel (and I suspect, her own birth year, but can't yet prove). So that's before Isaiah 53:11 picks up, 7 years prior. But it's evocative of Isaiah 53:12 cuz that verse is 42 syllables, haha. Which, Mary also uses. Can't be coincidence.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

OMG 756 total? 14 more than Daniel 9? Kill me now. Got to study it more. Of particular interest is Zeph2:1, where you broke it as 4 and 8. Zeph 1 ends at 12 BC. So 2:1 ends at 0BC. Not sure what to make of that. I wonder if the timeline starts over. Given that period covers Christ and the pivot growing out from Him, I'd expect to see it seven sooner?

LOL go look up the LXX for Zeph2:4, they use the same wordplay you do. Apparently Ekron was already a Greek word? See how the LXX covers it: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lxx/zep/2/1/s_908001

ISBE and the other dictionaries/lexicons treat the wordplay as follows:
Ekron means FIRMLY ROOTED. See here (tho what I say below comes from Bibleworks' copy of ISBE http://biblehub.com/topical/e/ekron.htm ).

So God is saying the FIRMLY ROOTED shall be UPROOTED, not merely transplanted, tho that idea is in there too. That's the history of the place. The ARK was uprooted and sent to Firmly Rooted, who voted to uproot the Ark and send it back to Israel, and then uprooted against Sargon II, then in 701 uprooted Sennacherib's pawn Padi, sending him to Hezekiah. Senny baby then uprooted FIRMLY ROOTED by invading it, and set siege to Jerusalem to get Padi back, Hezekiah relenting. But that means Senny came back a SECOND TIME, laid siege to Jeru again (2Kings 18ff; this is my smoking gun for Isaiah 53's timing, I've been looking for it since 2008). Hez prayed and God killed 185K of Senny's troops there (Isaiah 37, 1Kings19). Senny then goes home in shame and his own kids kill him in his own act of worship (ibid and proof extra-Biblically, too). By then, Hez had been dead about five years (compare 2Kings 19-21, Isa38).

Read this, on Ekron and Senny: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekron

Ekron is central to Isaiah 53.
Timeline, from 2Kings 18ff:
724-721BC (approx), Shalmaneser takes all of Samaria captive. Hez is said to be in his 4th year when it started, so must have been crowned while Ahaz still ruled (726-7, approx).

712 BC, Ekron revolts or taken by Sargon II, wiki link above. THIS is where Isaiah 53:1, opens. This is what I kept on wondering, 'why there'? Now, thanks to you, I know.

705BC, Senny baby finally becomes king, has some cleaning up to do, and by

701BC turns south to right the wrong of Ekron's revolt, which entailed sending Senny's boy Padi who had ruled Ekron, to Hez. Hence, now Senny faces Hez when 2Kings 19 opens (parallel is Isa 36).





What's most shocking is it agrees with Matt24-25 meter, in the sense of 1050+7 as a synonymal metaphor.
750 sevens in a 1050. The Matt meter is meant to be a RECONCILING 3150+7 (Christ dies 63 years before the current 1050 he's in, ends, so adds 63 to 'fit' the pre-Church accounting for 1050s.)

PS you can change the topic title so it doesn't end at Samex2. Won't affect the links. So just edit the 1st (title) post in this thread, k? Editing title is same as editing post. This board doesn't fix the titles, they can always be changed.

I went through Zephaniah and traded out some elisions that I didn't really feel comfortable with. The syllable count didn't change, but there is a spot or two with extra seveing.

Neum is now two syllables, and these are the changes that I made. Let me know what you think of them.

(הָ אֲ דָ מָ ֖ה) Zeph 1:2&3

(מֵ הַ גְּ בָעֹֽ ות) Zeph 1:10

(כַּ גְּ לָלִֽ ים) Zeph 1:17

(יֹ שְׁ בֵ֖י) Zeph 1:18

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, see how you got those counts. I'm astonished at the total. Not sure what to make of it. But then, there's more to go. Looks like you'll go well beyond 1050.

Yeah, I need to finish. There are 5 total Samex's, and 5 total occurences of "neum Yehwah", so if it is some kind of anaphora, I'll need to meter the entire book to find out.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Sounds like he's plotting Time from 642 BC to the end of the scheduled Millennium, so 642+40 for Christ's lifetime, plus 57 to get to Mill, then 1050, sum 1789. So if it's not a 642 start date, you'll know. Also, he might omit 7 years for the Trib, since the 50-year gap for the evangelization of the Gentiles (pre-Church schedule) might be inserted. I don't see it counted as Jewish time, which it would not be, so might omit 57 from the 1789 (or so) total.

I edited my OP, so I'm just bumping the thread.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

What do the x's mean? I'm stumped on 42 and 28 as datelines.

Sorry, the x's don't mean anything. They were just place holders and are supposed to be in the 'paragraph' column. For some reason, my PC screwed up the document when I saved it. I'll try to fix it in the morning.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Oh, you don't have to fix it. Editing a Word doc in Hebrew is too much of a pistol. You move cursor left to go right, and right to go left, crazy.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Syntax of verses 2 and 3 both begin with asaph. So how can neum yehwah begin verse 3?

I don't see anything wrong with the datelines you have of 28 and 42, but I can't tie them now. Would be 644 BC, so 42 after Hezikiah died, 28 after Manasseh crowned or ruled alone or can say 28 after Hez died which doesn't fit text. Hez died 686; Manasseh born 698, crowned immediately but age 12 when Hez died. Isaiah 53's timeline is based on that. But how does 42 fit here? And esp., 28? I can't make both fit.

The relevant chapters are 2Kings 21 and 2Chron33. But Daniel also benchmarked Manasseh and if memory serves, the benchmarks are different. If I go by Amon's AGE at accession, then Manasseh might have been captured by the Assyrians when he was only 26, which fits the 28 (698=28=672). But that doesn't fit what I remember from Daniel, tho I could have misparsed the meaning (sylls are okay). So after he repented and God restored him, he had Amon.

Then there's Isaiah 53's parsing of Manasseh, which I thought (perhaps wrongly) meant that Manasseh was captured at age 49. That doesn't fit the 28 at all. Unless the 28 references something else.

Datelines usually start with years from a past event. The second goes forward, but I've not seen that in the OT. All I've seen is years-from, and then somehow the TOTAL at the end fits into years-to, like Moses does with Genesis 1 and Psalm 90, using the TOTALs as prophetic balancing. Also, they seven. You seem to be using a Trinity meter style, which maybe exists but I've not checked it in the OT. Paul used Trinity meter with anaohora, but I've not seen other NT writers do that yet. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

In Timelines (which are not datelines) it's usually years-to, but Genesis 1 is all retrospective timeline. Or so it seems. I can't get a prospective timeline from Genesis 1 individual meters, only from the whole, an equidistant tie with Psalm 90, cuz 1350 years remain to birth of Messiah when Moses finishes each chapter.

Here's your file in pdf, cuz it downloads from docx reversing the Hebrew, really hahaha to look at.

It could be a forward dateline if he's tracking to Isaiah 53. But it still would have to 7. Also, if 609 (to warn of imminent invasion), 105 years prior is 714 BC which is Isaiah's dateline for Isaiah 53:1. So now I have to see if the 42 and 28 can somehow tie cuz that 105 is pretty definitive. In which case, maybe the datelines refer to prior prophets, not the king. For a Bible writer might date his book that way: Matthew dated from historical Nehemiah and from Malachai.

So if 609 it's composed to warn Josiah, who goes negative and goes against Pharaoh Neco, 2 Kings 23:29.

for the BW9 copyo of ISBE article on how scholars think to date Zephaniah.

Now, if the early date is used, then Jeremiah's ministry hadn't begun yet, since Jer1:1 says his ministry began during the 13th year of Josiah (whether rulership or age, I'm not sure, haven't parsed the verse). So if Zeph makes no reference to Jeremiah, then the earlier date would be more relevant. If really 609, then something would have to be said about Jeremiah, who'd have begun earlier. If Jeremiah began when Josiah was AGE 13, then he'd have been king since age 8, so king for 5 years at that point. So that year would be 635. If when Josiah was in his 13th year of rule, then (roughly) Josiah would have just turned 21 in age, and it would have been (under Jeremiah), 627. Either of those dates is before Josiah's reforms which ISBE dates to 621.

On the other hand, God liking to use Two Witnesses so much, maybe Zeph prophesies as an independent at the end, the older guy, so that Jeremiah the younger one, gets a better hearing. Maybe Zeph dies soon after he talks, and Jer is to pick up from there, having already the ear of the king, but.. well, I'm guessing.

Jeremiah doesn't reference Zeph, either. The latter's great grandfather was King Hezekiah, so you'd think they'd know each other well, but maybe God didn't want any reference (except maybe in the meter, but I didn't check Jeremiah, Chronicles, or Lamentations for meter).

In any event, Jeremiah would have been alive. He's the son of Hilkiah the high priest (Jer1:1).

Helpful book: Basics of Biblical Hebrew Grammar By Gary D. Pratico Miles V. Van Pelt.
Sadly, it's no longer available on Kindle (tho I thought it was). I have the hardback from years ago. It's out now in 2nd edition, and comes with a CD ROM, https://www.amazon.com/Basics-Biblical- ... 0310270200

Or, you can free-download an EXTRACT (or is it a workbook?) here: https://www.google.com/search?q=basics+ ... hebrew+pdf

Look at Chapter 3, syllabification.

I updated the op with a new version of Zeph samex 1. This one is a bit more interesting. It has a total of 308 syllables, with a 77+77 dateline. Then, by Josiah's name in vs 1, 33 syllables. That's actually what I had been hoping for as Josiah died 33 years after Manasseh died.

Then, the 42 became a 41, which ties more precisely to Manasseh being captured. There's no more 105, but maybe it wasn't really intended.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I'm still having trouble with the 154. And it seems to me the 127 should be 126 to tag Isaiah, but it's just a hunch.