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Take your time. I'm still working on the other potential crypto-meters.
The most obvious crypto-meter starts after the 26th syllable, which I believe establishes the first 26 as a crypto-dateline. I think it ties to the temple somehow, I'll have to look at my notes.
But look at the crypto-meter, it benchmarks your 1610, and I think a few others.
I'll post more as I find it.
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Dateline is years-from and years to, or either. 26 years prior, is what? 26 years after, is what? 26 is not sevened. No non-sevened dateline is used except when a PRIOR seven has been tagged or referenced. At least, not in the NT and not in the OT chapters I've parsed so far.
40 years after 30 AD is obviously the destruction of the Temple.
I know that datelines are traditionally sevened for the MAIN meter, but what about the HIDDEN meter?
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The 40 is meaningful, but you go by FIRST dateline, and it MUST be sevened. 2nd can be non-sevened. Daniel did it that way, John does it that way, maybe Paul too (still need to test that). FIRST dateline is always sevened.
There can be as you call it, crypto-meters, but they wouldn't be for datelining when the book/chapter is written.
I understand what you're saying, but what if 40 is a dateline for a SECONDARY meter? Not to establish when the chapter was written, but to indicate that this second meter is counting from 70 AD forward. I mean it functions just like a dateline: 40 years forward, 40 years back. I don't think we should rule out the possibility.
Im just trying to figure out why this cryptometer is there? What does it mean? It certainly appears as if it is there.
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Well that's the point. The idea of submeters bookmarking is well attested, especially in Isaiah, Psalm 90, Daniel. TWO ENDS benchmark off the text in between, and the meter gives you the 'time' for that text's application. So I wouldn't doubt something based on 40, butjust not as a dateline. Datelines are to set up theme and tell you when book/chapter written. Subthemes are many. 63 is a significant theme and apt meter as 2nd dateline, but the 49 is first, and very much more meaningful, as it is DANIEL'S (who the Lord quotes and expands on), and means TEMPLE DOWN.
Doesn't rule out what you want to do with 40, but it's not a dateline of when written. Keyed off it, yeah.
Ok, I see what you mean, thanks. I was applying the wrong terminology. Anyways, what would the sevening that follows the 40 mean in contrast to the sevening that follows the datelines?
For example, you said subsevening generally indicates spiritual growth, but what about subsevening in the crypto-meter?
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Well, a 40 meter would be in multiples of or factors of 40, not sevened. More likely you want a 50 meter, cuz at certain junctures it sevens. 200=4 50s, 5 40s.
I'd bet money that the Jews read Psalm 90 as Jubilee meter (50), so mistake the fact that the Mill was supposed to start in 4200.
Well, what I'm talking about is sevening that starts from the 40, of which there is a lot. I got the idea from tracking the stand-alones. I haven't actually parsed by multiples of 40.
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Okay, now you have to justify your claim with how the text interacts. Same is true for all meters, just cuz it sevens doesn't mean it's right. It has to elucidate the text.
Ok, so you said that the stand-alone sevens indicate rough patches in history right? Why is that?
If so, then stringing the stand-alones together in a pattern that keys off of 40 should share a common sub-theme, which is established by the 40? Just thinking out loud.
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Well, standalone sevens seem to indicate rough patches in history cuz every period I can check, is one. Trib is a seven. Missing number of sabbatical years atop the 49 missed is also a seven. Both are negative meanings. Jacob had to work for his wife seven years, got tricked into serving another seven, then God has him leave by the third seven, so it should mean rough time but growth due to it.
Seven was the period of servitude, after which the Hebrew slave had to be set free.
So there is also, a building metaphor. 1st Temple and the 2nd, each took 7 years to build. David had to fight seven years to get crowned over all Israel. He lives seven years after retirement (so did Thieme, lol).
There were seven good years and seven bad years under Pharaoh.
So doctrinally it seems to have the same meaning, as when the meter has a standalone seven which when I can check it to history, does represent a rough seven years. Temple takedown was seven years. From Passover to 9th Av, is 57x2, depending on whether you count by sundowns. 49+7 is 56, measuring between.
In your hunt, take into account the three-play, though. He seems to be balancing the time grant to Israel's time. Meaning, we get extra time due to Israel's time not finishing (duh) but the AMOUNT seems based on how long Israel HAD. And, Abraham. Am still working on all that, but the 1607 is deliberate, so too the 1540-1110 (430 years, analogous to time Israel was in Egypt at Exodus, Exo 12:40-41). Re Abraham, Christ actually dies 2090 from Abraham's maturation in 2046 YoW.
Yippeee! AmenAnaphora worksheet balances at 3's or 7's factors going all the way back to first syllable through 3170 when the last amen legw humin ends: and, each is same value, 3171 (actually 3170 +1 overlap): 453 sevens, 1057 threes. Get the pun? The 49 missed sabbatical years is the difference: 3220-3171. And that too was the pre-Church 'schedule' for Harvesting the Gentiles', now stretched out into.. drum roll please.. 4200 years past 3156 YoW, when 1st Temple dedicated!
Total syllables are 3220, YES epoiesate is only 4 syllables, and yes aiwnion is only 3 syllables. Total occurrences are SEVEN and only at the end of Matt 25.
YES you were right about dieskorpisas and diakonew, I took out elisions. Also hopou ouk and arguria, elisions removed. The Greek term would be very old, no Hebrew equivalent in pronunciation, so would not be Hebraised with ya.
The ouk is a strong negative 'belonging' to the VERB following it, so would not be swallowed.
I need another week to redo docs and worksheet for someone else to see.
Not saying there are no errors left, but they should be self-cancelling, now. The big 'balance' task was to get the anaphora to balance to itself. And it does, smack dab in the middle of 1532-1540 anaphora. Sevens AND threes. That was 1562-1570, when the Bible suddenly got freed up due to English Reformation.
One overlap goes from 1118-1538, and the other from 1532-3170, so it's a defining time in world history. Turns out Elizabeth I was crucial to our getting Bible even until the end of the timeline. Pity the KJVO people can't appreciate this, as yes it stresses the importance of the King James Bible (but more, the freeing of England from RCC). Ironic how the prophecy they seek OF the KJV is not in their misuse of titsrennu in Psalm 12:7, but in THIS CHAPTER which YOU found!
Peter Ruckman's dead now, and I bet he's laughing his head off with Thieme, as I type. He got it wrong all his life, but hey: now the proof he sought, is FOUND! BY YOU!!
I'm excited to hear that, cuz I really wanted ainonion to be 3 syllables so that the finally clause would counterbalance the first clause of 26 syllables.
In fact, I was asking God about it the night before last, in relation to the crypto-meter, and now you were able to make the parsing work. So maybe that is what I needed.
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Yeah, remember when we had that discussion some months back? It's really odd how those two words are piled up at the end, and total 7. First I did them as hebraisms, then unpacked, now packed again.
None of this mitigates against what you came up with. I'm solely focused on the TIMELINE being parsed rightly.
The only anomaly is 3153, which I think is instead, a YoW reminder when 1st Temple got finished. To draw parallel. 67 syllables to end Matt25, just as 1607 is 3 syll short of the voting period following 1540, so the parallel seems intended. As if to say that the rest of the timeline hinges on that period; and that period, is dodgy.
Ok, this is more interesting than I expected; the crypto-meter began with 26+14=40, and now its ending with 7+26=33....or even possibly 14+7+26=47.
Do you think it means anything?
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Could the highlighted portion be considered a clause of its own? Even though, ἐπείνασα is technically a verb, it is an action on an implied noun, translated "I hungered".
Could that parsing be broken down further?
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Okay, well it's 16 and 24 to get 40 in Matt24:1, and the end 7+26 isn't the same sentence. The 7 is last clause in prior sentence.
And the ending meters don't tie the 40 to the text. Technically 25:46 is three clauses, =8 καὶ ἀπελεύσονται οὗτοι =7 εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον, =11 οἱ δὲ δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον
11 is usually an epic Greek 'hero' meter, often used. So too, 10, 15, 13, 17. The last one is often used in Hebrew as 9+8 (esp. in Psalm 90 and Isa53, maybe others, but those are obvious). So I infer 9 as Trinity meter, 8 as Plan of God (4x2), and we all know 7 is promise. Here, promise of punishment (kolasin).
So then, how could one infer a link to the 40 in Matt24:1, just because this is 33, when linked to the UNRELATED οὐδὲ ἐμοὶ ἐποιήσατε in 26:45? That clause's context would require more syllables for the comparison to be apt.
Anonynomenon wrote:
Ok, this is more interesting than I expected; the crypto-meter began with 26+14=40, and now its ending with 7+26=33....or even possibly 14+7+26=47.
Gar is post-positive used at sentence beginning. The kai has several uses; connective, emphatic, conjunction, ascensive, etc. Here, it's an answer to the question, a kind of subordinate clause, yes; but more, it's an APODOSIS.
If you separate ἐπείνασα γὰρ from the answer, since the 'I was hungry' is NOW USED AS A PROTASIS, it's dicey (gar turns the verb into a protasis). You'd have to treat the other parallel section the same way.
Anonynomenon wrote:
Got an important question for you regarding Matt 25:42.
Could the highlighted portion be considered a clause of its own? Even though, ἐπείνασα is technically a verb, it is an action on an implied noun, translated "I hungered".
K. Forget what I said about Matt 25:46, its not what I thought it was.
Quote:
You'd have to treat the other parallel section the same way.
Suppose we did, would any resultant subsevening have any meaning, or would it be improper to treat it that way?
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Well, if you're lookiing for 40 meter, then it's in factors of 40, so 2, 5. Not sevens.
So you could, if you wanted, take the AmenAnaphoraR.xls and change the divisors to 2 and 5, change the Column A syllable counts as you see fit, recalc, see what happens.
Understood. Jesus begins talking in verse 2. Matthew pads text for v.1 at 40, and there is slight padding with narrative in v.3 before the Lord speaks, including them speaking. After that, beginning with v.4 it's solid Him speaking. So test just that solid section, for some other meter-within-meter.
I'm not looking for a 40 meter. What I'm looking for is subsevening that keys off of the first 40 syllables. This was your idea in page 2 of this thread, because you were looking for an ellipsis. I don't think there is an ellipsis, but I do think there is a sevening meter that starts after the first 40 syllables.
Maybe a Temple Destruction meter.
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
I didn't mean there would be a sevening after the 40. Meter doesn't work that way. It either sevens or threes, and the former is always an extra layer. If you want a meter keyed off 40, you'd need to use its factors to find it.
But again, if you think you find something, well then try it out.
I dunno if this applies pan passage, but here's our current historical trend, with clear distinctions in the 40's. Adding 30, you get (in red glow) 1971 when #prolife started, to 2001 (9/11), to 2041. Sum is 70. I've seen this before in Psalm 90, Isa53, embedded 70's to signify important voting periods which are not the 'official' voting periods.
The yellow highlight relates to when the Colonel was saying he thought we had 40 years maybe left as client nation, since there was no longer a pivot. He didn't know the meter, as you'll recall.
Taken together, causality: 1971-1998, grace period, allowing the prolife blasphemy to flourish, time for believers to wake up and realize they were violating Bible on both abortion and on seeking political power;
1998-2038, 40 years of wandering in the wilderness (shut out), then 2038-2041 the judgment finished. So if this interp is valid, it should recur elsewhere in the timeline.
Yeah, this is similar to the sevening that I see playing off of the Temple destruction (40).
Look at syllable 2993, then 3043 (parsing by clause).
Do you see what I mean? 1993+1000+50.
Also, 1971 AD may have been the start of prolife in govt, but 1976 was the first time it affected federal programs.
So I'm seeing multiple patterns layered in the text, based on your parsing.
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Well, ἐπείνασα γὰρ is not a clause (Matt 25:42), but could be an embedded 1050 terminus. If so, we'd have to know why. If you tie it to 1993's end, then the next phrase for the start of the bookend in Matt25:12, is ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν·
There's a little haha in that He's doing an indictment in both places, but to end 1050 at γὰρ , makes no sense. Now, maybe the 1050 count begins earlier or later, so that the end in Matt 25:41-42 is earlier/later.. check that.
Its probably as you said, an embedded terminus, but it doesn't end at ἐπείνασα γὰρ. I do think that it is a clause though. Just as ἐφ᾽ ὅσον is in Matt 25:45. You have that hanging on its own.
So, it may be a dependent clause, but still a clause nonetheless.
Its translated I hungered indeed;ἐπείνασα is an action on an implied noun. γὰρ (indeed) is a conjuction which seems to amplify the verb. That's just my impression, maybe I'm wrong.
However, it doesn't end there. Another 21 syllables finishes the sentence at 3064. καὶ οὐκ ἐδώκατέ μοι φαγεῖν, ἐδίψησα καὶ οὐκ ἐποτίσατέ με
so 1993+(1000+50)+21=3064.
Question
then the next phrase for the start of the bookend in Matt25:12, is ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν·
What do you mean by bookend? Like bookending Matt 24:2 (ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς) with Matt 25:12??? Or do you mean something else?
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Last edited by Anonynomenon on 26 May 2016, 03:49, edited 1 time in total.
I have ho oson on its own only because I'm testing the meter for benchmarks. You'll notice it makes no difference, if I combine it where it belongs, with the next clause,
ἐφ᾽ ὅσον 3 3173 οὐκ ἐποιήσατε ἑνὶ τούτων τῶν ἐλαχίστων 3187 (would still be the same total)
In the final version, the total 17 syllables is one clause, as epi is the beginning of the clause.
More to the point, gar acts like an enclitic, linking intimately what follows. So you can't divorce it as a separate clause. It's not a dependent clause, either. The garprevents it from being a clause. It's not like English.
Absent gar, you could call the verb standalone. With gar, the verb functions like a condition demanding a followthrough, too intimately linked to be called separate clauses, dependent or otherwise.
It's like saying 'I am for'. For what? It's not even a clause on its own, but an incomplete idea. A clause is a complete idea, linked in some manner to other complete ideas.
None of this precludes embedded meters. But there will be a recurring pattern. For example, 1540-1607 is short 3. So too, the same shortage, between 3153 and 3220. I don't know why, but it looks deliberate. The reader would expect the numbers to be 1610 and 3150 (Messiah's 2000 plus Mill) but it's 3 over, as if to compensate for the three short prior, which might indicate someone's time grant extends before (1607) or beyond (3153) the normal deadline. So I'm keeping ho oson for now, in case there's some other elision or addition or change in the syllable counts, so I can keep track of the distances between anaphora.
So when you do whatever metering you see fit to do, look out for pairings. That will help you see if you're onto something.
But what about 3064? That is 1071 from 1993. In Matt 24:32, there is a 1071=1050+21, but in this case, the γὰρ is fusing the clause, so no sub sevened 21 present. Is that significant?
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Well again, a) it has to be recurring, and b) the TEXT ties have to be witty or relevant in some other way. See, this is a rhetorical style. It's meant to be noticed. So you have to establish deliberateness, to rule out coincidence.
So for example, you can't just count every 1050 syllables and call that meaningful. There has to be a textual tie to show that count was INTENDED not just sequential.
Example: 1050 is parable of the fig tree. 2100, is master giving each according to his ability. Ties nicely. Then the outcome, at 3153, the stingy servants objecting that they never saw Him for ministering to Him. Ouch, but ties well: beginning to beginning to beginning.
Remember your first draft? You took the position that each segment/story sevened. That's a good assumption. For the timeline, I notice it's not followed, but that doesn't mean there is no such usage. So if it happens, you can be pretty certain it's intended. I suspect the final draft will both reflect your initial assumption and the timeline.
If (maybe, maybe not) there is an embedded meter counting from the 40, then the sevening ends at syllable 3064, which is 1993+1071. I'll have to go through your parsing to look for more patterns.
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Well, between the two of us, your parsing seems to be the only one that balances the Anaphora, so I used yours.
Just look at the bolded red numbers next to the Greek text. The embedded cryptometer starts and ends with a 98 (so maybe bookends???), and it is 3024 syllables long. At this point I don't know if its deliberate, or just coincidental. Maybe you'll notice something important.
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Okay, I don't see a text tie, nor a reason why to shoot sevens off the initial 40. 3024 is 432 sevens, and that has no particular meaning, either, in that context.
There's no repetition of the 40, and frankly if you're looking for a 40 meter you'd have to do it as 40, or 2 x 5 factors off the 40. So: 3220-40 =3180, looking for equidistance, and the final 40 doesn't contain a full clause (3187-7 doesn't go far back enough to encapsulate a full clause). Nor is 3220 evenly divisible by 40.
Again, you don't just look for coincidental sevenings. There must be some text tie to show that the distance is intended.
I was just listening to RBT's lesson on the letter to Philadelphia today. He got into the meaning of the 'open door, which no man can close' (Rev 3:8). He said that it represented opportunity for believers to not only mature but to become an invisible impact on history. What I found to be hilarious, was that he opened up the lesson reading from an article quoting Senator Ron Paul of foreign policy. Ron Paul really opened me up to Libertarianism, so I just found it ironic in a way since we are dealing with those same compounded issues today.
The invisible hero thing is nothing new to me, but it brought syllable 1968 to mind (Matt 25:10). How can we determine if the 'closed door' in verse 10 is satirical or direct? How can you tell when the meter changes from satire to direct observation?
Lets say its not satire. If the door was closed, it have to be closed to the Client Nation only, right???
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Well, if the door (as in the opportunity for historical impact) is closed, then doesn't that mean that there is no pivot in America at all? Since pivot=historical impact. God is just waiting for the last of us to grow before He drops the hammer.
I guess I'm just repeating what Thieme said in 1998, but where one door closes, another must open for the continuation of the Church, right?
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Well, I'm thinking door closed as in SEALING FROM DOOM. As in closing the door of a castle, and leaving the others outside to face whatever oncoming enemy. But the question is, who are the wise and who the foolish? If satire, the wise are the foolish, and the foolish with their fake bridegroom shut the door on V+ in 1998, so now denouement from God occurs.
That latter hypothesis seems to be what is happening. So God will protect us.
But it's all conjecture now. 'Both' is probably the answer, but in what ways? I'm still unsure.
FOR SURE, the #antisemitism swarm ends circa 2061, when the parable's epilogue ends (sentence starting with grigorete). That's 120 years from 1941, roughly.
So if it is satire, would the fake bridegroom be religion, offering pseudo-doctrine to the pseudo-wise?
Was 1976 the year pastors (except for a few like RBT) started moving away from Bible doctrine? If so, then 1998 would be the year that the pseudo-wise became completely root bound in religion. I mean, I don't know what it was like from 1976-1998, but as it stands, now, I can't find a single church in my locality that comes close to teaching the truth.
But if that is the case, then the true wise are not knocking on the door of religion, but of God. But that's where the satire stops making sense to me. Why would Christ say to the wise "I do not know you" (or what would be the point in being sarcastic there)?
What if the wise are knocking on the pseudo-groom's door to share doctrine with the pseudo-wise, and the wise are being turned away?
I really don't know, I'm just throwing out some ideas. So far the bolded part kinda makes sense to me.
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The following still uses http://www.brainout.net/Matt24-25ParsedR5.pdf syllable/AD year counts. Video playlist going through earlier versions, click here. (The earlier versions are off by a lot, assuming ellipsis periods which now we know didn't exist. They are still useful videos, to see hermeneutical methodology.)
This covers 1703AD-now (where Matt25 starts, v.1), 17 mins. First use of 'bridegroom' is 1748-49, Treaty ending War of Austrian Succession which WAS about who would husband (literally) the Holy Roman Empire. So I feel comfortable saying that's the satire, 'bridegroom' from politics, by those negative to God.
This was really the first world war, and the effective end of the Holy Roman Empire, though it would limp along a generation longer. The War was fought on all continents. Read the Austrian Succession link above, it's helpful.
Yeah, I'm thinking over the same topics as I type. Above are 2 audios in reply, but I need to firm up some ideas. The only thing I can say for sure is that it IS double-entendre (false vs real bridegroom), a theme from the beginning of Matt25.
Matt25 begins at 1703AD, if we counted sylls in Matt24 correctly. So it's a whole-world political transitioning largely impacted by the Industrial Revolution, which was just about to start, which had a HUGE impact on our political leanings, great shift into false saviors, etc.
So clearly the 'bridegroom' occurrences need to be traced to get the theme, in addition to the anaphora. Of course, what is typed below is speculative, just to get a hypothetical framework.
Remember, the Matt24-25 theme is still an elaboration on Daniel's Man of Time from Daniel 2, which Daniel updates in a timeline via his meter in Daniel 9, then updated by Mary, and now by Her Son. So we're tracing out the development of the feet of clay and iron, wondering if the US becomes the King of the North(west).
1st occurrence: 1748-49 (including the 30 years addon to get AD), the Succession itself which resulted in a fragmentation of empire, which resulted in the separate empires that would end up fighting in WWI.
2nd occurrence: 1820-21. Not coming up with much here. Unless it's a biting reference to Napoleon, who dies in 1821, having been defeated since 1815 (delaying to die, is that the satire?)
3rd occurrence: 1845-6. Nothing sticks out here yet. It should be important, for it's the shout that the Bridegroom is coming.
4th and final occurrence: 1975-76.just as the foolish virgin Christians are leaving, the Bridegroom actually arrives, and they didn't even see Him!
In America, it's a turning point for the prolifers, which seem featured (their denouement). Reagan becomes the darling of the prolifer conservatives in 1976, they really looked to him as a bridegroom/savior etc.
But probably more meaning than that, need to keep looking.
I'm listening to your mp3s now. You mentioned 2001 AD (ὕστερον translated 'afterward'). I think its safe to say that ever since 9/11, recent American trends are pretty much divide into pre 9/11 and post 9/11. Our country (and pretty much the rest of the world) has never been the same since that event.
After 2001, the 'foolish' come back to the waiting area only to find that they missed the boat. So from 2001-2009 (husteron to parthenoi )we've pretty much been dazed and confused. Then from 2009-2016 (legousai to 2nd kurye)the ENTIRE WORLD has been frantically looking for a savior from the post 9/11 Islamic threat, and the post 2008 economic meltdown...and those two issues are melding together to form a head. I don't see how war is avoidable at this point, but as you said, I don't know how it will play out either.
listening to the second mp3 now.
On 1998: I was in the 5th or 6th grade in 1998. That was just about the time that my mother sat me down and introduced me to RBT's tapes Basics 101 (that was when I first heard the gospel and was saved). I must have been 11 or 12. Prior to that, God was never so much as mentioned in my childhood. The only churches in my locality where 99% Catholic, or Jehovah Witness, or some form of Central American born Pentecostalism (they made the snake handlers look good). The Columbine shooting happened in 1999, and I remember America freaking out over gun laws, personal/parental responsibilities, and the media blaming Marilyn Manson and Eminem for hate-lyrics.
Seems like 1998 was when Christians became really legalistic to the extreme, and the secular realm started pushing the idea that environment overrides volition...at least, that was the change that I noticed in school. I also remember having to go through random backpack searches at school. People were so paranoid that they confiscated geometric compasses because of the sharp metal tips, and liquid-paper (for fear that kids would get high sniffing it). Teachers watched us like hawks, looking for the slightest sign of emotional distress that might lead to the next Columbine. That was a time that teachers recommended Prozac and Ritalin to parents to keep kids under control. It was a strange time, but I can see now that its were Christians really took the plunge off the deep end.
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
And this: December 2 – Manifest destiny: U.S. President James K. Polk announces to Congress that the Monroe Doctrine should be strictly enforced and that the United States should aggressively expand into the West.
O'Sullivan believed the US was supposed to be a missionary hub for Democracy.
RBT talked a lot about the role of Manifest Destiny (in the Rev series) in America's formation as a Client Nation.
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Re pre and post 2011, yeah. But it looks like the period 1974-2001 is key, or 1960-2001? Still thinking through the meaning.
Re 1845, the theme is set in the first use of bridegroom. About political LEADERS, and on a big scale. So not about events per se, unless the events are closely tied to the leaders.
I thought Manifest Destiny/Monroe Doctrine might have served as a 'midnight cry', announcing the "bridegroom", but I don't know what esle was going on in the world at the time. Haven't much time to sit and think about it.
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Yeah, well it could be related, but I'm looking for something bigger. 1821's Napoleon death is bigger, and biting satire. Bear in mind it's only TALK of the bridegroom, there (bridegroom delaying).
Same, for 1845, which if America is Polk, who, invoking Manifest Destiny, annexed Texas to bring on the Mexican-American War and hence the completion of the territory we now know as the US, cuz 'bridegroom' is 2 syllables=yrs, so includes 1846, when the War began and Oregon was also annexed (away from the UK). So could be a bite, as in 'the bridegroom is coming' to 'rescue' all that territory from foreign 'husbands'.
Both are big deals, but pre 1900's I'm expecting something in Europe, given 1748-9, which was the conclusion of a world war over HUSBANDING.
But if Christ is shifting the focus westward to US in the 1800's (rather than from 1787 as originally seemed true), then maybe the above are US-focused events, and are certainly big enough: that's how we BECAME the US, in those years and due to those 'husbanding' Manifest Destiny doctrines of Monroe and Tyler-Polk.
FOLLOW THE BELIEVERS is the theme, historical trends based on believers. So maybe He's comparing and contrasting the breakup of the Holy Roman Empire (still false husband) with formation of the US as counterpart 'client nation' influence. Thieme certainly taught that. Of course, politics is a false husband too.
Certainly Reagan is in view for 1976. That affected world history, even until now. The prolife movement got its legs from Reagan.
From 1845-1852, Ireland was struggling with a famine, which resulted in mass immigration to America. England had Cholera outbreaks, so its unlikely that Protestants who were looking for a new home would move closer to Holy Rome.
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Well, the tracing of the same word pan-text has to be the same as first usage. Kinda like any Word study in Bible, you track the way the term is used. So I'd think that if Austrian Succession is so bitingly tagged first in the parable (which was EXACTLY over who would husband the HRE), then a similar theme should follow subsequent uses.
A famine would be tangential.
Seems like the use of Reagan is due to his foreign affairs, which got Russia to dissolve so it couldn't aid ISRAEL's enemies as much. So full circle to Israel and Daniel, by end of the parable. Which is, where we are historically.. now.
I made more audio on this. Can't get it to upload here, so uploaded it to my domain. The following still uses http://www.brainout.net/Matt24-25ParsedR5.pdf syllable/AD year counts. Video playlist going through earlier versions, click here. (The earlier versions are off by a lot, assuming ellipsis periods which now we know didn't exist. They are still useful videos, to see hermeneutical methodology.)
http://www.brainout.net/downloads/wma/Anony3.MP3 is a from-Matt24 panoramic evaluation of the satire and setting compared with Daniel and Magnificat, 36 mins; and probably best skipped since you know all that, already.
http://www.brainout.net/downloads/wma/Anony4.MP3 focuses on why 'Reagan' in context from 1704 AD onward, full-circle to Israel, and is 20 mins. But it goes into detail, saying what's above, how I got to that conclusion. So maybe skip it, too.
Yeah, I think Austrian Succession is the primary focus, and as you said, the Irish exodus was tangential. Nevertheless, it shows movement of people.
Is America lined up to eventually become the Revived Rome of the 70th Week? I have my doubts about that. Until I can narrow down my understanding of Daniel 11-12, and Ezekiel 38-39, Revived Rome will continue to be conjecture on my part.
However, it could be said that the Roman political structure never really died. If the legs of the statue represent Rome, and the Church Age is an indefinite extensions of time, then the legs could also be indefinitely extended.
So what if the succession of Client Nations are also a succession of the Roman style political systems (since Rome was the first Client Nation of the Church Age)?
added thought:
I also agree that Reagan and W are a continuation of the Monroe Doctrine, which is really a means to achieve MANIFEST DESTINY. So I think MANIFEST DESTINY is the key here; but who's Manifest Destiny??? Remember that the object is the Bridegroom, so Bridegroom should be viewed as a static entity (not right vs left).
Therefore, I think the Bridegroom is government (doesn't matter if its Hillary or Trump). The Manifest Destiny is maintaining domination of the oil market. If we get a republican it will manifest in combat. If we get a democrat, it will be proxy wars and currency wars.
So this is what I see. Its satire. Government is fake Groom. The pseudo-fools are seeking Bible Doctrine (buying oil) while the pseudo-wise are getting political. The pseudo-fools come back to the waiting area to find the door closed. They call out "Lord Lord", in hopes of governmental representation (election), and the Groom/Government replies, "I don't know you".
Notice that the there are two calls to Lord, so one Kurye is definitely Obama, the next one remains to be seen, but its not the individual who is the Kurye, but the office.
The pseudo-wise are the "in-crowd", the "pseudo-fools" get marginalized. So the Bridegroom in this case is really a tyrant.
If we view it as conservative vs liberal, the satire gets too complicated for me to follow. I just see Hegelian Dialect...one Manifest Destiny, different plans of action. But, that could just be my apolitical bias talking too.
_________________ HEB 4:12 The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Okay, you raise a lot of good points. Yeah, big government dominating versus small leads to tyranny whether conservative or liberal. War for sure, separation for sure, and if one is among the truly wise God will deliver (to death or physical safety, same thing).
I'm still not satisfied the final keys are known. Seems too vague. Prophecy is never vague. It is always dual-entendre.
Meaning 1, text for CA. Meaning 2, satire on wise and foolish. Meaning 3, the real foolish will really be shut out of history by real Lord to clean house so the contagion of their false doctrine will be reduced. Meaning 4, the real wise will really be protected (different kind of shut in), no matter how it plays. Meaning 5, it might play that that foolish get their foolish false messiah in order to advertise to the WORLD that they are foolish, so to cauterize the contagion.
It's Meaning 5 where I'm uncertain: HOW will the foolish be advertised to the world, not whether. Maybe they should get in power, or else obviously shut out. I'm not sure which is the meaning. Result will still be Meaning 3, though.
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