FrankForum (Frankness IS Forum)

Ellisions are mostly done with articles and at the end of prepositions. My basic rule of thumb is that if I can't pronounce the sound without seeming drunk, then it must be elided.

Ok. I finally finished the entire meter. I have to color code everything to keep my mind organized, but I uploaded it in a word doc so you can edit it and change the coloring to make it easier to read if needed.

You might disagree with some of the elisions, but this is the only way I could get the anaphorical clauses to line up and maintain consistent sevening.

let me know what you think.

I also attached a pdf version just in case you need that.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, thanks. The shades are way too dark for me to read the text in pdf. So I'll download and convert the docx (which you can only do in XP, lol) and then change the colors so I can read the text. So give me a bit of time to do that. Thank you !

BTW, I don't use Word 2007. Didn't know they removed your ability to use Borders and Shading, but now you are only stuck with 'Highlight', which is almost always too strong.

yeah. Sorry about that. I tried to use the most legible colors, but I have windows 8, and it really sucks. It was the only alternative to windows 10 aka the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth. Ill have to see if I can edit the highlite colors.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Don't worry, I've got it in Word 2003 now. BTW, Word 2003 Professional (retail, don't get any other kind) costs $60, and works just fine in Win8. But I don't know if fileconverters.exe (which enables reading later versions of Windows) will work in Win8. It won't work in Win7, but will work in XP.

Most law firms and accounting firms still use Word 2003.

Okay, I got a problem with eliding de+autos, since de+a is not at all the same as de+au. When you say the latter you still pronounce the 'de' sound no matter what, so you can get your lips ready to round for the 'u'. But de+a easily becomes d'a.

But would you plug your own values for the anaphora starts and endings, into column A of the attached REVISED AmenAnaphora.xls worksheet, and see where it sevens and threes? That might justify your ellisions. The default you see there is my latest version of the parsing, I've not yet uploaded it, as now I need to complete a new "Notes" section.

The total must at least be 63+3150, or 3213. For Christ is reconciling pre-Church 1050's with the effect of the new 1050 beginning at His Death two months from when He speaks. Matt24-25 is like Genesis 49, His Dying Blessing (when the future is foretold). YOU figured that out, and I bucked you. You were right. So that's how I know the total must be 3213 or higher, since He's talking 64 years before the Mill begins, but it rounds to 63, if using the civil calendar (since Nisan is month 7).

Here's how to access the worksheet 'Custom Views' for Excel 2007: https://www.google.com/search?q=Excel+2007+custom+views

Here's how to access and use Borders and Shading (the shading is much better than highlight) in Word or Excel 2007: https://www.google.com/search?q=Word+Ex ... nd+Shading

Sorry they changed it. I hate that ribbon, but some like it, so I'm not familiar with the other changes.

Ok. I traded out δὲ αὐτοῦ in Matt 24:3a for ταῦτα ἔσται in verse 3c. Same principle as H'elohim in Psalm 90. But I'm not sure what to do about Matt 25:10a.

Ok. So this time I'm going to follow your parsing and try to make changes to get that amein lego humin separated from that hoti.

First, there are some problems that we need to resolve.

1). Does kurios work as two syllables in any other meter?
2). How can ἕως be counted as one syllable, when Ephesians counts Θεὸς as two syllables.
3). Then in Eph 1:7, you have ᾧ ἔχομεν, which is like trying to elide καὶ ἄρξηται in Matt 24:49. Doesn't the iota under the omega give it a hoi sound?

I just think there should be a sort of uniformity between the meters.

edit

I changed the δὲ αὐ to ἀγοράσαι ἦλθεν in Matt 25:10.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Well, what happened to the threes and sevens originally? Maybe you don't need to adjust 25:10 if the threes and sevens work.

I adjusted 25:10, but it was just a trade out within the same clause, so the count didn't change.

Could there be a 21 in ellipsis?

Because to go from the current 3192 syllables to 3213 is an additional 21 syllables. I don't know how that can be worked in the text with my elision assumptions. Either kurios is two syllables and your parsing is more correct, or kurios is three syllables and my parsing is more correct. However, with your parsing, we have the hotiproblem, which doesn't feel right.

Anyways, I need sleep. Parsing Matt 25 really burned me out today. Just see if an ellipsis is justifiable. So far there are no ellipses that I know of, which I think is a bit odd. Don't most meters have at least one?

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Yeah, now I agree that there are no infra-chapters' meters in ellipsis. The 63 at the end and beginning serves the equidistant purpose. Paul and Luke do the same thing. Here, the 63 is nested already, since under the pre-Church schedule, 63 years remained to the Mill, so the total to end 'even' must be a 1050 plus that same 63, which on the PRE-Church schedule, would not be an overhang. But on the post-Cross schedule, the new 1050 starts at His Death here, so the ending 63 'echoes' the dateline 63, just like Luke does in Luke 21.

So to justify an extra 21 ellipsis at the end, you need a 21 at the beginning. So what is 21 years before Christ talks, to balance? It would have to be well known and related to the text, to qualify as a kicker for the ellipsis at the end.

I don't know whose meters are more 'right', but like you I'm exhausted, and I've got legal document amendment deadlines on the 30th I must attend. Thanks to technology it will only take me a few days to do, but I can't work on this again, until May.

So: I uploaded the latest revisions to brainout.net. The doc (which requires free Bibleworks fonts from http://bibleworks.com/fonts.html ), is http://www.brainout.net/Matt24-25ParsedR3.doc . Just replace 'doc' with 'pdf', if you'd rather the pdf.

BTW, now Adobe Reader cannot read watermarks in pdf files, but pretends it's a font embedding error. so the doc/pdf are both drafts, but I can't watermark them. Will see if I convert the doc to Word2003 (it's in Word2002 right now), whether that problem continues. But it's not watermarked as 'draft', though it is a draft.

Also http://www.brainout.net/AmenAnaphora.xls is uploaded, since it's a pain to scroll here to find where the uploads are. Lemme know if you want me to upload to brainout.net any of the versions you're working on, in case that makes it easier for you.

Ok. I see what you mean about the Luke meter. However, looking at Luke 21, there are some elisions that I think should be changed, and some that you may have missed. The 63 is still there, but its solid. I don't see a 28+35.

Would you be able to upload a version of Luke 21 that I can alter? The pdf is read only. Take your time doing your legal documents first. No rush.

Also, if Luke 21 is still 1085 after an elision review, then Matt 24-25 would be 2100+7 years longer than Luke 21 (by my results).

1085+2107=3192 (my present results for Matt 24-25).

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Sure, here's the link to the doc: http://www.brainout.net/Luke21Meter.doc . It's the same file. You need Bibleworks fonts to read it, unlike the pdf which embedded the fonts. Since Luke uses 28 and 35 and 63 in Luke 1 as datelines, I'm pretty confident of those values as the meter. But have at it.

K. Thanks.

Going back to the 47 years post cross in GenYrs xls, how could the rapture have potentially occurred at the Temple fall, if Abraham's reimbursement of 54 years had not been fully paid? Did our Lord's early death abrogate the need for Abraham's reimbursement?

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Well 47+7=54. So in that what-if, the remaining TRIB time due Israel playing, 'pays back' the 54. So Christ dying seven years early needed to be reimbursed, too.

Alternately, 40 years Temple falls, then Trib, treats His Dying early as an offset to the 54.

I don't understand.

If rapture had happened at Temple fall, then 40+7= Second Advent 10 years early and both Abraham and Israel get shorted.

If rapture happened 7 years after Temple fall, then 47+7= Second Advent 3.5 years early, and Abraham is paid back, but Israel is still shorted.

So either our Lord's early death cancelled the need for time reimbursement, or 40+7 and 47+7 could not have been plausible what-if's.

Do you see what I mean? It seems like the earliest possible what-if had to be 30AD+7+50=Rapture...basically the old schedule.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

No, the 3.5 early was to be on time relative to David. Christ dying successfully 10 years prior to the 2100 relative to Abraham's maturation, is never made up. So in that accounting, 47 becomes the leftover.

There are several accountings one can use, hence the Rapture couldn't be securely estimated even based on Abraham's credit. Just as you've been saying, POTENTIALITY and LIKELIHOOD are alone mapped.

Ok. So because our Lord was born 3 years early (3.5) and died 7 years early, those early 10 years + 40 years of Temple standing made up for Abraham's 50 (followed by 3.5+3.5)? Am I understaning that correctly?

If I am understanding that correctly, then Jesus early birth meant that He had to die 7 years early to balance that reimbursement.

So then the 7 that historically played after Temple fall, wasn't that a sort of tribulation too? 3.5 years for Gentiles, 3.5 years for Jews?

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Well, actually the original balancing was that HE live the 40 years. That would have been 37AD, followed by 57 years, which is 3.5 + 3.5 +54. That scenario still would have put His dying relative to Abraham's 2046 YoW maturation, at:

* 4143, dying at the outer limit of time due to the inner limit of David's death year +1000;
* 2097 years after Abraham's maturation. Assuming it was on Passover, since Noah's Bday was then and he got his 490 then and Abraham matured in the last year of Noah's 490 (maybe on the last day, who knows), then mid-year per the civil calendar, hence 3.5 not 4 or 3. So the 2097 would be presumably exact.
* So EXACTLY 7 years would remain for Trib, and EXACTLY 50 years for Jubilee, but also accounted as 3.5 and 50 +3.5, owing to the lateness of starting Temple after David died.
* Temple was dedicated 1050 years after Jacob was born, so there are two sets of books being reconciled when Christ actually dies: I'm not sure of all the connections, yet.

Ok, so if Temple had been dedicated on time and therefore Christ born on time, His scheduled death and return would have been 4146.5+50+3.5=4200. So the original Tribulation was only supposed to be 3.5 years. But that would be part of Abraham's so how could it be Jacob's Trouble?

However, because of early birth, Jesus would have been 40 at 4143, so then it becomes 53.5 for Abraham, but where does the last 3.5 years come from if all debts are payed???

It seems like His early birth required and early death. And Church was needed becaused of early birth and therefore because of early death.

So Daniel must have know something would happen since 70 Weeks where disclosed to him rather that 69.5 Weeks.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

1. Jacob's trouble was long taught by the Colonel as 3.5 years. I don't know where he got that. I get it, by realizing the GENTILES are owed 54 years (really 53.5), and so the extra 3.5 has to be due to Temple construction delay. Maybe there is another reason.

2. One can argue that the latter delay is offset by Messiah dying successfully, since He was born earlier to make up for the delay. (That of course implies that David's birthday or deathday was Pentecost, but I digress.) For the times are DEADLINES, so they can be paid early, and Messiah paid for ALL TIME (Hebrews 10, first half), so then the entire calculation of 'owing' can be argued as reset.

3. the 70 weeks to Daniel would still be the same, since Messiah had NOT yet come and paid.

Does this reply help?

Yeah, I agree that Abraham's 53.5 years is the source of Jacob's Trouble.

But wasn't our Lord born 3.5 years early specifically to offset the Temple delay (which also ties to David's death)?

If that was the case, then the delayed Temple's debt has been paid, therefore it can't be the origin of the extra 3.5 years of Trib.

Lets say Jesus did die in 4143 versus the old Temple schedule of 4146.
So, 4143+54=4197 Second Advent. That is 3.5 years short of 4200. So that extra 3.5 must be coming from something else.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, I'm just noticing this;

3096--David crowned in Hebron
+7
--------------------------------------------
3103--David rules all Israel
+33
3136--David retires
+7
3143--David dies
+3.5
3146.5--Temple construction begins
+10
3156.5--Temple dedicated

so Abraham's credit is reflected from David's rule over Israel through the Temple Dedication.
33+7+3.5+10=53.5

The 7 years in Hebron would then correspond to week 61-62.
Why 7 years in Hebron???

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

7 years of civil war (really 7.5 at Hebron) so David wasn't crowned over ALL Israel until after that civil war ended, see 2Sam5 and keep reading.

Christ paying early paid off the old debt, but now there's a debt owed on HIM. So Trib repays for HIS time, which is why the earliest Rapture date could be ANYTHING, hence Philippians 3:10, ei pws the Lord can come while Paul even lived. But Paul in Ephesians picks what-ifs at first by reimbursing-time dates, like 66 reimburses the 33 then Trib 7 reimburses the extra 7 owed CHRIST.

See where this leads? There are several sets of books, but when Christ successfully paid, it all got vested in Him, Romans 10:4, Hebrews 2, etc. So you also can't tell when the Rapture is supposed to happen, cuz you don't know which set of books Father will select, and He might not select ANY.

So to account time for learning sake, Christ in Matt24-25 selects both the old books and the new books, with the 1050 starting at His death. Paul started a 490 at His Birth, which as we know wasn't actually true. But the point is, once He's successfully PAID (since Paul is writing post-Cross but Christ is speaking just pre-Cross) -- it's anyone's call. To teach that, Christ doesn't cast in stone the old rules, yet uses a rhetorical device everyone could understand, to show why Rapture cannot be predicted.

BTW, nothing I've said or come up with is necessarily right. It could be some other explanation. My goal is at present to prove DELIBERATENESS in the meter on an ACCOUNTING basis, and that the results so far are at least PLAUSIBLE. The actual answer will be better than whatever I've contended, if what I've condended is somewhere wrong. I'm not 'married' to any position.

Thanks. I'll have to take a look at 2Sam5. I get what you're saying about the Rapture accounting being unknowable, I'm just trying to understand how 53.5 becomes 57 in the old schedules at this point. It doesn't add up for me yet. I see where Jacob's trouble comes from, but I don't see where the first half of Trib comes from.

Maybe it has something to do with Hebron, or some credit due between the transition from Saul to David, or maybe something between Temple construction and Temple dedication. I don't know.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, well there are several 3.5 year pieces, but the latest one I found was the delay in starting 1st Temple. For Christ to die ON TIME, would thus require He be born 3.5 years earlier, so to be born in the 1000th anniversary of David's being crowned King over all Israel (3103+1000, which the AmenAnaphora.xls plays on), AND having 40 years to live so to die by the 1000th anniversary of David's death in 3143.

Dying early, He died 980 years after the Temple was DEDICATED in 1Kings 9, so somehow that's an issue still. Dying on the original schedule would be 987, so plus 57 still means 1044th anniversary after Dedication, so 7 years short of 1050. Because, construction started 3.5 years late, and then after Temple was built it wasn't dedicated until 7th year AFTER the 3150 closed. So it's no coincidence that 3150+63+x (I'm thinking 7 right now=x), is used in Matt24-25 meter.

But going back to pre-Church, you first have the 53.5 from Abraham's maturing in 2046 from Adam's fall. So the extra 3.5 makes the 57. Is it the 3.5 of Temple late construction start, since 2 Sam 7 said its construction would start after David's death (not promising right away after, but promising not during his lifetime)? Seems so.

Okay, I'm REALLY convinced that Christ or Matthew is ALSO using the anaphora to play a prophetical satire on how we'll all have a BC/AD problem due to the Varro error. Whenever I correct for it, I always come into the middle of legw. Even when I add hoti to the amen legw humin line.

I gotta play it out. If you're gonna pursue a musical theme, you have to know the ancient pattern, not our modern ones. I don't know their 'scale', for example. But maybe syncopation (definitely antiphony) are also used. I can't pursue that line, cuz I never much learned music.

Will do the TIMEINE adjustments for Varro as well, to see what happened. It was not a law in Christ's day, but was in Luke's, so is that why Luke made the 1082 into 1085? (Varro's error added 4 years to Rome's founding age. Christ was born end-year, so our BC/AD discrepancies always resolve to 3.)

But that will have to wait for tomorrow. I still got 10 docs to do (not hard, but tedious).

Is it possible that the eporweto in Matt 24:1 belongs to the next clause?

Instead of:


Maybe it should be:


And having gone out Jesus from the Temple,
He left and came to Him the disciples of Him....


To me, it looks like either case I plausible, but rhythmically, the second option seems to work better.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

My replies are interspersed with your quote, but in green italic.

Thanks. I don't think Matthew's padding shows any particular rhythm, however, there might be rhythm in Jesus' speech, but I need to test it further. If there is a pattern, then its not one continuous time signature.

I do have a question though. What does the 'stand-alone' sevening represent?

Like syllables 194-201 καὶ πολλοὺς πλανήσουσιν

Or syllables 901-915 ἰδοὺ ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ ἐστίν, μὴ ἐξέλθητε

And syllables 1993-2000 ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν

Are these 'stand-alone' numbers supposed to balance to other accounting books?

I ask that, because the three examples I posted all seem to be balancing to 70-77AD. In fact, in the whole Matt 24-25 meter, these are the only three 'stand-alones' that I could find that balance to Temple fall. Like syllable 201-47=154 (22x7).

I haven't tested the other 'stand-alones' with other accountings yet. Have you seen something like this before?

BTW, I think your parsing of Matt 24-25 is correct. I can't find a better alternative.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Well, I wonder about the standalones too, but I think their purpose is to warn of Tribulation-quality times in history, when it will be really bad.

Remember the start of the fig parable, Matt24:32? That first clause (ending with parabolen) is 14 syllables. So Luke, who also ended at the Matt24:31 total of 1036 syllables, 'mapped' his first clause to the SAME 14 (cuz 1036+14 is 1050, which is why I stopped thinking there was a time ellipsis).

So it's important to parse a TIMELINE by clause, to find the benchmarks.

And I'm not yet sure the parsing I did is right. One of the singular benefits of your parsing is that you did it contextually, thinking that the total must seven at the end (i.e., from Matt 24:1-31).

Fig Tree starts at v.32, should be its own sevening, but I'm no longer so sure. Christ is doing THREE reconciliations: pre-Church, post-Church, and (just figured out today, not yet finished) for the VARRO 4-year error (same as and source of, our BC/AD problems). So for one compilation the sevening works one way, and for another compilation it works a different way.

Point is, how you did it might be right, too. I just don't know more to say, yet. Ask God. He'll know.

ok. I went through your parsing of Matt 24-25 and tried to find connections between the 'stand-alones'. It looks like they might be tracking alternate accounting books, though I haven't taken the time to try and find which ones. Perhaps they might link to Paul's what ifs.

Anyways, if the 'stand-alones' are indeed tracking other accounts, then Matt 24-25 might be read 7 different ways(including the obvious 490 starting from 30 AD).

Or maybe its just a coincidence. I don't know yet.

I'm uploading your parsing with the 'stand-alones' highlighted, underlined, boxed, parenthesized, circled and underlined in zig-zag. Its the best I could do with my program. Just match the boxed with the boxed, highlighted with the highlighted, circled with circled, etc. You'll find that they reflect alternate sevening from the standard meter.

Edit: I updated the 'stand-alone' notes.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Who's Sarah? Abraham's wife? I'm not understanding what you're matching.

For example, first match is gold highlight syllable 201, to next occurrence at 915, then 2000.

915-201=714, a seven factor. 2000-915=1085, another seven factor.

Text benchmarked is (respectively): many deceived, heavens shaken, 'and answering He said'.

Sorry to be so dense. I'm not getting the import of what you mean. Care to elaborate?

I sorta get what you're saying, but not enough. It is true there are multiple subtimelines here.

I know of three: pre-Church, post-Church, Varro adjustments. But so far my brain keeps going out (and I DREAM about it too) and I can't get all the pieces together.

Here's what I mean:
The PRE-Church sched goes 63 (to Mill), then 1113 (amen leg split, playing on Varro, picked up prolly by Hebrews 10:5, the Lord SPEAKS when Born); could also go 60 (same split but in the first occurrence) to 1110. That's 1050, either way, but it BALANCES if 63 then 1113 split.

So the next split should be 490 syllables later, at 1603. But I got 1607. Moreover, there's an intervening amen legw humin I can't balance to. But THAT one is POST-Church alignment, so maybe that's why the extra four. I can't see how to elide four syllables between 1540 and 1607. So at the moment, I'm stuck. Maybe it's a game on the 4-year Varro thingy, though, so I'm right now playing with alternate connections.

Alternatively, if the 1607 corresponds to 1610 but a Varro game, it 'matches' the 1540 on the POST-Church schedule. But I have this awful feeling (which I dream about) that the 1610/1607 represents a CONVERGENCE of both reconciliations (balancing to both). At moments I think I see how.. and then my brain goes out.

If there are SEVEN not merely three, in a way that wouldn't surprise me. Like historical trends or bracketed periods of history to watch out for.

What do you mean Sarah?

I just started matching the numbers up and posted it for you. I haven't actually gone through all the possibilities yet, so the pattern might be completely random. I was just making the observation and sharing it in the event that you or I find that it takes us some where.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

What I mean is, look at kurye anoixon humin. Those 7 syllables end at syllable 1993. Then 1993-47=1946 or 278x7. Then the following clause, ho d'apokritheis eipen is also 7 syllables taking us to 2000. So are these tracking the 70-77 AD Accounting?

Ok, then look at, horate mei throeisthe. Again its 7 syllables totaling at 225. This time, 225-64=161 or 23x7. So would this be balancing to the 94 AD Mill (30 AD+64)???

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

There are comment markers everywhere in the pdf saying 'Sarah' and nothing else. I don't see how a 7 at 201 'matches up' to a 14 at 915. Nor to another 14 at 2000. Sorry to be so dense.

My brain must be completely out. I have NO idea what you're saying below. If you want to rephrase, I would appreciate it. I'll try to sleep. Doc deadline got met, maybe it's a problem of shifting gears between legal documents and these numbers? Whatever it is, I have absolutely no idea what you mean below. Mea maxima culpa!

When I look at the meter, 1993 means AD 1993+30. By itself, it means 1993 years after Christ dies, so 1050+943. So it's nowhere close to 70 AD. Now, if you're measuring 1050's from 70 AD, why do that? But if so, it's 1953 years after 70 AD, and would be 1946 years after 77 AD, but why benchmark 1050's or anything else after those years? I'm not getting it.

Its ok. I sent you a personal message about Sarah. Just ignore Sarah, it was a mistake.

201-47=154 or 22x7

915-47=868 or 124x7

2000-47=1953 or 279x7

Why 47? Because Temple fell 40 years after Christ died (earliest possible Rapture). Then 7 years later would have been earliest possible Mil.

My thinking is that these 'stand alones' could be tracking from 77 AD. Does that make sense?

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, understood your message. So the Abraham reference doesn't belong there (go with me on this, k).

As for the standalones tracking from 77 AD, I don't see why. That is John's dateline meter for his Gospel. As for 77 being the earliest Rapture date, well it really wasn't. The earliest, coulda been the very next day after Christ died. Schedule is not promise. All bets were off when Israel rejected Christ. You'll hear the Colonel explain that often later in the Rev series.

But IF IF IF IF God wanted to 'balance the books' to the pre-Church schedule, then there are what-ifs you can play, but the whole point of this timeline and Paul's, is to regard the timeline for if the Rapture DOES NOT happen. For if it does, it won't matter when. You'd be GONE. But if no Rapture, then matters a bunch, for you still have to get through your spiritual life down here.

In short, since Israel was so used to counting time for 2000 years, the old habit now has a new and REVERSE use: if He DOESN'T come. You use the time rules to remember God buys time only through the believer, and so long as YOU are still down here, that rule is operating. So the upcoming character of the time is mapped, and it would be the same if the Rapture happened or did not -- but if it happened, then its relevance to YOU no longer applies, as you'd be gone. Better, then, to assume you're NOT gone.

Well, the reason I say 70 AD as earliest, is because Jesus did foretell the Temple falling, so I assumed that had to happen 40 years after death. This is also assuming that He knew that He would die 7 years early.

The reason I started looking at 77 AD is because of the ho d'apokritheis eipen at syllables 47 and 2000.

I know that you said it's not a refrain or anaphora, but its placement still bugs me. That's what got me looking at the 'stand-alones'.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Well, you might have discovered something important, but whatever it is, needs further 'something' to piece together a coherent line that converges. What that might be, I don't know. I'm still just trying to understand why 1607 not 1610, whether I need to reparse or whether a Varro adjustment 'pun' is being made. What you're thinking of might well be true, but it implies a much higher sophistication which requires spoking doctrines. What are they?

What do you mean by "spoking"? I don't understand that.

I don't know, maybe I'm just seeing things that aren't there. This meter has really got me questioning a lot of things. I didn't expect things to turn out the way they did, and I'm trying to understand why its more elaborate than I expected.

I cant think anymore. I need to sleep it off.

I don't see how 1607 could be made 1610. Even in my parsing, your 1607 was my 1606. I would think that you have it right, so maybe there is a Varro pun.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

BTW, the 77 and 70 are important, but I'm not sure they stand for 70-77 AD, given that is our modern system of dating, not the ancient one. So maybe you're onto something else important..?

Spoking means to hook different sections together to show how doctrines interrelate. Example of a spoke: if you look at the amen legw humin contexts, you'll find that the middle one (1532-1540 in my latest meter you have) is nice, about happy is the slave whose master finds the slave faithful when the master comes. The others are all predictions of disaster or judgement (no stone on another, 1st, right at the door, 2nd, I don't know you, 4th, with 5 and 6 both judgments for eternity nice/nasty).

Now, if any of the other DIFFERENCES between OTHER clauses seven, or SEVEN TO the amen legw humin clauses above, then that's a spoking, if the WORDS tie as well. And that well may be.

The Varro thingy is maybe only played on the first time: in the middle of legw (splitting the word). For there are 1050 between first and 2nd in the anaphora (60-1113). I don't think that is a coincidence. So if I assume 1113 is the next 'baton' in the relay race, then 490 +1113 should be 1603, but it's not. I can't walk back 4 syllables, there's no amen legw humin to 'complete' the one started from 1110-1113. But there is a pointed 4-year OVERAGE.

By the same token, if I could find a way to add three syllables to 1607 (and I can, but it throws all the meter off), then 1540-1610 balances, and if I could find by the end of Chapter 24 another SUBTRACTION of the same 3 after 1607, then 1610-1673 also balances to that same 63 being used as the reconciler between pre- and post-Church.

I can find three elisions, but they seem forced. Worse, I can't play with the legw split between 1540 and 1110. So either I've parsed the meter wrongly (a distinct possibility), or there's some other wry point being made over this 3-4 year shortfall playing on Varro, that I'm not yet grasping.

Well, I'm not playing with 70 or 77. I'm playing 40 and 47, which translates to 70-77AD.

Notice that in Matt 24, ho d'apokritheis eipen is followed by autois, yet in Matt 25, its only ho d'apokritheis eipen does not include autois.

It seems like aoutois isn't really necessary, so why is it there in tge first one? Maybe to indicate that 77AD (30AD +47) would be over-shot???

There seems to be another timeline tracking from the 57th syllable, which would be tracking from 87 AD.

I'm away from my computer at the moment, so I really cant elaborate any further right now.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Greek economy of words. When a phrase is mentioned fully prior, then a repeat of it truncates the words. Here, I'd bet also the aim is to get the syllable counts to hit targets. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Still can't figure out why the deliberate 4 overage from 1607 forward. Unless it's not deliberate, which threatens the sevening.

How does Varros error normally appear in the meter? Is it always a variance of 4 years, or 3? Or does it alternate?

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Well, that's just it, I don't know. Looks like Paul uses 3 years (the 56 dateline plays on the original 4106 but adjusts for Varro), Luke uses 4 yrs (kai eipen Maryam in Magnificat); but if they are writing BEFORE the Lord's birthday, it would be 4; if after, then 3. For the Roman new year starts the week after His Birthday.

But now I think that adjustment in Matt24 is only the first occurrence, since every meter after is an ADDITION to the start. So all the numbers would be, WITH the walk-back, adjusted. Else, 'official' to balance to Roman calendar, so 3-4 higher, depending on whether the meter count is before or after His Birthday (depends on the fiscal year used, all the meters are precise about fiscals and change them during their timelines, going all the way back to Moses).

But I'm still testing this. Problem is, I could have an undetected parsing error which looks like the Varro error being adjusted. Yikes.

What is the significance of 57 versus 58 in the meter. I know that 57 is can be 50+7, but what about 58?

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

58 means LATE, used by Daniel in Daniel 9:11-12, specifically for King Manasseh. I've seen it elsewhere too, but can't remember right now where. In NT.

Does 58 have any relation to 100? And what is the significance of Luke 21 and Matt 24 tying at syllables 100? Maybe the stand-alone 21 of syllable 324 of Matt 24 is tracking that 100.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I don't know why 100. Bugs me. Might stand for two 50's, the doctrinal meter for Pentecost, but why in THAT place, and what's the meaning? I don't know.

Ok. I edited my comment a few posts back with an updated copy of the Matt 24-25 Anaphora with the stand-alones.

I just mathematically balanced the numbers to possible benchmarks in the text (like syllables: 40, 57, 100, 116, 283, and 335). I don't know if it means anything at all, but maybe it can somehow help you with the problem you're facing. If there is and spoking, this would probably be the place to start.

On the text convergence in syllable 100

Luke says, "when therefore will these things happen?"

Matt says, "As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives".

Doesn't the Mount of Olives split when Jesus returns? Maybe that's the connection.


Let me know if you find anything. I'm going to bed.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Yeah, He returns and splits the Mount of Olives. Thank you for the brainstorming. I don't know if there's a connection either, but it's driving me crazy.