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Turkey as New Rome and Erdogan's speech? - FrankForum (Frankness IS Forum)

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PostPosted: 09 Dec 2015, 15:56 
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Erdogan's speech recorded and commented on by shoebat.com, .

Walid Shoebat is famous among evangelical Christians for contending that Revelation 17 is about Islam. So the article above is talking back to that theme. His latest article on that theme centers on Trump's call for banning Muslim entry, .

Since Constantine built New Rome (now Istanbul) with seven hills, I can't wholly rule out Shoebat's interp.

What do you think?


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PostPosted: 09 Dec 2015, 16:39 
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I think "they" are just messing with us the same way they did with the initial 10 EU nations. Zeph 2, Isa 47, and Rev 17 or 18 all confirm that Mystery Babylon is revived Nineveh IMO, so the 7 Hills are the 7 historical kings/empires that ruled over Chaldea and the Levant (in reality, 5 past and 2 to come). Rome was but one of those hills.

So again IMO, one so inclined to watch should be looking for the revived consolidation of the Levant and Chaldea, not necessarily Rome.

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PostPosted: 09 Dec 2015, 20:32 
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King of the North moving steadily westward, geographically for the Man of Time. So that's why conventional Christianity says 'King of the West'.

TWO Anti-christs, not one. The above is the Gentile one, and there is a Jewish one, who later is dubbed the false prophet in Rev 13ff.

So the problem is that the Zeph 2 prophecy about Assyria being destroyed, already came true. So parallel in nature to EVER DEAD Nineveh, some other entity also arrogating the same idea of ever living. But not Nineveh, geographically. The Isaiah and Rev prophecies don't say Nineveh as the location, but Rev says 'seven hills', and Daniel never says Nineveh will rise again, but rather a westward-moving set of 'beasts', ending with the same people who will take down the Temple in the future, which is the last beast, and we know her name: Rome.

But new Rome or old?

See, that's where the traditional Christian interp of Catholicism gets its impetus. New Rome, built by Constantine, then for 1000 years and even until now, extant still occupying OLD Rome, but used to occupy both.

When you get to Rev 17 you'll hear Thieme speculate that maybe it's not Catholicism, but yeah some pretend-Christian idea, so Chrislam isn't ruled out, either.


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PostPosted: 09 Dec 2015, 21:09 
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To my recollection, Zeph 2 is about the Day of the Lord, so it literally says that Nineveh is yet future. Then Isaiah 14:4-28 discusses the fate of the king of Babylon and the king of Assyria. Again, if I remember correctly, it is a future event.

Can you prove that Zeph 2 is not future, or that its being figurative?

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PostPosted: 10 Dec 2015, 05:50 
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Okay, but Isaiah 14 isn't on Nineveh, and the Zeph 2 passage does not say ON or AT THE TIME OF the Day of the Lord, but 'before'(Zeph 2:2). Next, where are the parallel passages tying the end of Assyria to the Day of the Lord?

Rather, Isaiah 38:6, all of Chapter 39 (allusively, for Babylon would destroy Assyria), 43:14 (on using Babylon to save Israel) are on the end of Assyria. Jeremiah uses Assyria in the past tense, as now it's Babylon who oppresses Israel. That parallel continues through Jeremiah 50, which still talks about Assyria in the past tense, no claim she will revive. Same with Ezekiel 23, 27, 31.

It matters, as Zephaniah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel were all of the same generation of prophets. Z and J were ministering to Josiah, and in the 2nd deportation a generation in time later, while J was still alive, E is ministering to those already taken away (1st and 2nd deportations), contemporaneous with Daniel. So E is talking in the past tense that Z had already promised, and J was chronicling, so by the time you get to J 50, well...

So now how to account for all of that?


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PostPosted: 10 Dec 2015, 19:57 
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Well, when you get a chance and are in the mood, please show me where in Bible it says that either Babylon or Nineveh revive. Just because Israel and Judah are regathered at 2nd Advent, doesn't mean that Babylon and Nineveh ever revive. Nor do I find any prophecy saying so. Jerusalem is called 'Babylon', and Peter wrote from territory which used to be in the Babylonian Empire, but no one I can find says it revives. Daniel 2-12 precludes that, each Empire dying.. right?


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Well Jeremiah 50 does compare the destruction of CHALDEA AND BABYLON to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. We are told that when it happens, no men we even pass through it. The only thing dwelling in it will be wild animals from generation to generation (Jer 50:35-39). At this point, there are still people living in Iraq, so that implies that Chaldea and Babylon will have to rise again to face that level of destruction. Read Nahum 2-3, it sounds like its straight out of Rev 17 and 18. So Nineveh would be the new Babylon ruling over revived Chaldea.

I'll comment some more later.

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PostPosted: 10 Dec 2015, 22:32 
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Okay, when you're in the mood, please do. For Jeremiah 50 is being said during Babylon's taking over Israel, and it's about the restoration of the Temple. Which happened 70 years later, just as Jer 25 and 29 predicted, just as Daniel prayed in the 70th year of his own captivity (since he was in the first deportation). Daniel was the guy given the timeline of Babylon's destruction, and Jeremiah and Ezekiel predicted it also. Daniel was the guy who actually LIVED THROUGH that destruction, so how is it that Jeremiah 50 isn't talking forward to Daniel, and Daniel fulfills Jeremiah?


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PostPosted: 11 Dec 2015, 05:24 
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LOL no one would ever think you apathetic. I just feel bad constantly objecting to what you say, so if you want to ignore my objections, please do.

That being said, lessseee... okay, well still the Micah prophecy doesn't work. You can't say it only references Christ at 2nd Advent. God defends. Micah's ministry was contemporaneous with Isaiah. See, that's the problem. Where in Isaiah or any of the contemporaries, is there any prediction that Babylon and/or Nineveh will rise again. They all say DOWN, but no up.

Daniel has no 'up', either.


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Well, don't worry about objecting. I come here because I know you are objective so I use it to refine my thinking.

Neither Jeremiah, Micah, or Nahum would be exclusive to the past or the Day of the Lord alone. I would expect them to be doubled. For example, Antiochus Epiphanes and the 70th Week's Abomination of Desolation. Or the flood of invaders outside of Jerusalem around 70 AD vs the flood of invaders during the Tribulation.

Its like the prophecies unfold in stages or cycles (for lack of a better term).

Like I said Babylon and Chaldea never faced the level of destruction that Jeremiah 50-51 predicted. The ruins of Babylon are still intact. Its walls which should have been leveled are still there. Babylon should have been a charred heap, but it doesn't seem to be the case. I think that needs to be explained before Revived Rome can be considered as a possibility.

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PostPosted: 11 Dec 2015, 18:06 
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Yes, and that came true already. Don't you remember, for centuries no one even believed Babylon existed because there was no evidence.

Verse 39 tells you it will not rise again. Iraq is not Babylon.


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Well, you're still maybe targeting the right place and idea, but with the wrong label? Just thinking out loud, here. Not trying to shoot you down, but like you're doing, to fine-tune the meaning.

I'm not sure what is the right meaning, but 'seven hills' means a play on Rome. But after that, well I don't know.


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PostPosted: 12 Dec 2015, 05:08 
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I was just listening to RBT lesson 467-0067 on Rev 2:6. He was talking about Rome's origins in Asia Minor and how it eventually became the pivot site for the 7 Churches. Maybe the 7 Churches have a relationship to the 7 Hills.

Also, I originally thought that Gog of Magog was another title for the Antichrist (comparing him to Gyges the conqueror). I don't know what Thieme taught, but I think the land of Magog is present day Turkey and not Russia. If any of that can be proven true, that might be a smoking gun on what Revived Rome might look like.

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Yeah, if I recall both Arabs and Russia. Arabs are King of the South. But it depends on who's in control during that time.

You might be onto something with the 7-8 listing. I'd say Alexander instead of Seleucids, but it's close enough. Selecus was a general, part of the Diadochi, as was Ptolemy.


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There's a big debate over whether Meshech, Tubal, Rosh, etc are part of Russia or Turkey. I think Turkey based on what I've read, but I'm not a historian.

The list I made with the 8 kingdoms, I based off of Antichrist like figures mentioned throughout the Bible where similar diction to Revelation 17&18 exists. So my updated list is this:

1)Babel: Nimrod (Micah 5 Land of Nimrod)
2)Assyria: Sennacherib (Micah 5:5, Nahum 1, Zeph 2)
3)Babylon: Nebuchadnezzar (Jer 50, Isa 47)
4)Medo-Persia: Ahasuerus (Esther; had he listened to Haman he would have been a Beast)
5)Seleucus: Antiochus Epiphanes (Daniel 11)
6)Rome: Domitian
7)Interim: ?
8)Revived Byzantium:

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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2015, 14:43 
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Possible deployment of your last post: http://www.breitbart.com/national-secur ... rld-video/

Note the two Romes.

Also here, note the factions in the fight: http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... aphy-14608


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Well, since America is close to the Fifth Cycle, then it is very likely that the Caliphate will be raised up as the most evil nation to execute the Fifth Cycle. If (maybe/maybe not) America is the last client nation of Church, then the Caliphate under its Caliphe could be the 7th Head (for a short while) until the tranistion to Revived Rome is completed for the 8th Head (with the healed wound).

It seems that Rome began in Asia minor, it became the first Client Nation in Asia Minor, and may well be the final Beast in Asia Minor. That would be very poetic.

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Can't see Makka from the sea; there was no Makka until after 400 AD or so. The people who took down the 2nd Temple were not Arabs. So Daniel 9:27 says the SAME people, so can't be the Arabs. Daniel 10ff defines the Arabs as King of the South and focuses on Egypt, not Saudi; not, seven hills there. ROME is the focus.

Now, if you want to talk about WHO CONTROLS Rome, maybe: but it can't be the Arabs, as they already are identified with the King of the South.


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Well, Mystery Babylon doesn't necessarily have to be a part of Rome. So there can be Rome to the North and Mecca to the South. That would explain the constant back and forth between the north and south in Daniel 11.

And I really don't think the 7 hills are literal, it seems that they are used to represent the 7 kings of the Beast nations, so they're historical peaks of power.

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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2015, 05:21 
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Okay, well let's just agree to disagree. I'll wait until after you get through Rev 17 classes.


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Well Rev 17 is a long ways away, but I understand. I only question the Roman theory because I expect the answer to be somewhere in the OT. No mention of 7 hills in OT that I know of; and the only other similarity to Rev 17-18 are Isa 47, Zeph 2, and the Edom prophecies referenced above.

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Well, the seven hills is the Romans' own nickname for Rome. Remember that the OT's last book was Malachi, which came out in 397 BC or so, long before there WAS a Rome. So it wouldn't have yet been known by that name, and wouldn't have necessarily become known by that name. Just as, Gehenna was a trash dump outside Jerusalem Christ often used as a synonym for hell; but you don't find it in the OT either.


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Ok. If you're still open to the conversation, I've ruled out Mecca. Now I'm trying to see how Istanbul could fit if Asia Minor where to be Revive as Rome. As Thieme mentioned, Lydia seems to be the origins of what would eventually become Rome, but I can't really find much on that part of history. That same area was once ruled by Gyges, who the Assyrians knew as Gugu.

So if Mystery Babylon were Istanbul (situated on the Golden Horn), then it would literally ride Asia Minor. I think its a possibility, since the Seven Churches were all in Asia Minor too.

The question is, does the land of Magog has any connection to Gyges.

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Ok. If you're still open to the conversation, I've ruled out Mecca. Now I'm trying to see how Istanbul could fit if Asia Minor were to be Revive as Rome.

As Thieme mentioned, Lydia seems to be the origins of what would eventually become Rome, but I can't really find much on that part of history. That same area was once ruled by Gyges, who the Assyrians knew as Gugu.

So if Mystery Babylon were Istanbul (situated on the Golden Horn), then it would literally ride Asia Minor. I think its a possibility, since the Seven Churches were all in Asia Minor too.

The question is, does the land of Magog have any connection to Gyges?

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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2015, 20:09 
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Yeah, well that's where your 8 has a kind of fit, as Istanbul=Constantinople=New Rome (the name Constantine gave it), because the seven hills were LITERALLY RECREATED there.

I don't remember where I put the Cambridge History volume on that fact, somewhere in my Ephesians1REPARSED. When I find it, will edit this comment with the source link.

Again, all my posts aren't meant to shut down anything you're saying. If anything, I make remarks to keep the convo going. :bouncemirror:


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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2015, 20:21 
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Don't worry, I encourage you to challenge whatever you feel should be challenged. I looked closer at Isaiah 34 and realized that there simply isn't any way for Mecca to fulfill Mystery Babylon.

At this point, I'm trying to determine if Gyges of Lydia can be linked to Magog. Seems like scholars are divided on the issue.

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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2015, 21:31 
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Found the Cambridge link, here: https://books.google.com/books?id=MNSyT ... ls&f=false

I made a new post since you answered my other one. The cheapest version of that volume is over $100 in Amazon or Ebay. :mrgreen:

Here's another confirmation also from Cambridge, but in its history of Judaism, https://books.google.com/books?id=BjtWL ... 39&f=false

Sadly both editions no longer allow the extensive previews they used to allow. You used to be able to read whole chapters, five years ago when I first found those links.


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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2015, 21:32 
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Now Turkey is trying to get closer to Israel.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-and ... l-of-ties/

Give what Erdogan said in his speech in the beginning of this thread, I would say Israel would be foolish to even consider getting close with Turkey.

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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2015, 21:54 
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I've also been thinking about the Iron Legs (Western and Eastern Rome), and the Feet wixed with Iron and Clay. Feet have 10 toes, so maybe those are the 10 horns. I would expect the identity of those horns to be found in OT somewhere (we know three of them will be uprooted).

So, if Eastern Rome is revived, then it would be mixed with strong and weak nations that will not cleave. The Arab nations would fit that deacription. They're very factionalized, and oppressed by dictatorships. So I guess homeland Rome would be the Iron and the annexed Arabs would be the clay.

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PostPosted: 18 Dec 2015, 02:07 
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Arabs are King of the South. So that leaves other Western nations.


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PostPosted: 21 Dec 2015, 20:59 
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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2015, 17:46 
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Well, two feet, so yeah that could be.


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 Post subject: Re: Reviving Rome
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2016, 02:09 
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It looks like the EU's poor decision making on the immigrant crisis has backed it into a corner. EU wants Turkey to take some of the immigrants, but in return, Turkey wants to try joining the EU. Turkey has been trying this for years, but now the EU has put itself into a bad position.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu- ... m-35797679

Its groundhog's day again.

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PostPosted: 22 Mar 2016, 05:08 
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Yeppers. So now Turkey's citizens need to decide whether they really want the anti-Israel Erdogan, or not.


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PostPosted: 23 Mar 2016, 04:35 
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So far this EU-Turkey deal is following the same pattern as the Iranian Nuclear deal.
Jan 19th--Announcing a 'frame-work' meeting.
March 4/5 (account for leap day)-- framework meeting is held.
April 3-- Deal is signed. It would be interesting if Turkey gets closer to joining the EU by this date.

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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2016, 21:09 
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Rome?! Are you serious! "The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth" (Rev.17:9, KJV). Have you concidered how WIDE her bottom would have to be!

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PostPosted: 17 Apr 2016, 01:05 
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:jawdrop:

Or something else...


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2016, 06:11 
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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2016, 19:59 
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Lol. Wow, I went to Rightscoop to read the conversation you had. Those people really didn't like you crashing their party. Especially with the Cruz comments. Its amazing how antagonistic other believers are to outside perspectives.

You would think people would want to know about something as intricate as the Meter. Apparently it out of their comfort zone.

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Last edited by Anonynomenon on 26 Apr 2016, 22:19, edited 1 time in total.

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