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PostPosted: 19 Mar 2016, 11:04 
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Okay, all three paragraphs are playing to TEMPLE. Datelines work well,

63 prior is Augustus beginning (2nd Triumvirate ended 33BC, so war with Anthony began, which Israel needed for Temple rebuilding, Herod switched sides after Actium); 63 post at end of year would have been pre-Church scheduled Mill Start.
49 prior was when Herod started to rebuild Temple (same dateline Peter uses), 49 post would be end Vespasian's reign (who took down temple, initially then really through his son Titus).

Total 1st Temple standing time was 364 years, same as Noah in Das Boot.

Second paragraph on the slaves is more subtle: 602 is 616-14, and 616=586BC to 30AD which was the 980th anniv of 1st Temple had it always remained standing. Christ's life is cut short 7 of His Allotment, and then remains Trib, hence the deduction.

That deduction for His Life, is made up during the last paragraph, of 609. Then remains Trib.

LOL Total 2nd Temple time including Diaspora was the 616+40, so 656 but -54 Abraham credit also =602!

So Christ is balancing the books re Temple Time, showing how Church will be used to do that. Implication that Church will LAST that long, as a 'repayment', though spiritual growth is free so maybe it won't take that long. Rapture is still unpredictable, for you can always repay a time loan early.

Whether this Matt25 is a second timeline, remains to be seen. Clearly Matt24 is one, historical of the development and Persecution of Church by Authority (whether secular authority or those fakers who are Niko-Laus, trying to be the Conquerors of the People).

If Matt25 is a timeline, it would perhaps be the flipside, how Church DEVELOPS. But all this is preliminary guessing. God will know what steps you need to take next.

I'm still working on Luke21's parallel to Matt24. Luke is a lot more straightforward. My only problem is whether he's INSERTING time into the Matt24 timeline the way he inserts his text into Matthew's at key junctures. He might be tagging, rather than inserting. Or, he's doing EASTERN 'Rome' whereas Christ did Western. Not sure that's an apt characterization. Cuz get this: 1687-1085 is .. 602!

Here's a killer: Luke 21:23 benchmarks the 616. Verse content ties to Matt24:19 (syllable 561 at beginning), which begins at 590 AD. Luke uses the same starting point, 30AD for his (seeming) chrono, but in him it's syllable 595 at the end of the first clause (gastri) and almost the same syllable count (23 syllables rather than 24 in Matt24:19). At the end of Luke 21:23, +21 syllables=years later, count is 616. I think that's a deliberate reference to Matt25, but not sure how. Somehow he's bracketing warning periods like Peter did on Paul.


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PostPosted: 19 Mar 2016, 18:46 
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Ok. So I agree that Matt 25 has its own dateline, but at the same time, its really a continuation of Matt 24....in fact it appears that Jesus transitions from birthpangs to separating the people by using the 70+147 to introduce Matt 25's meter.

Therefore, I believe that Matt 25 continues the year/syllable timeline started in Matt 24....HOWEVER, we can not predict the future (only audit history), so we need to go retroactively.

My idea is to complete the 490 that is initiated by the 147 with an ellipsis of 231.
147+231=378 taking us back to Genesis 1's use of 378 (separating the land from water, and each tree with fruit of its own kind).

Then 378+(63+49 from Matt25)=490 to complete the first 2100 of the Church Age.

so, 1610+147+(231)+364=2352

4136 YoW-2352=1784 YoW, Which is around the time of Peleg.

Quote:
Gen 10:25 Two sons were born to Eber; the name of the one was Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided

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PostPosted: 19 Mar 2016, 19:34 
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Okay, run with that if you want. I do know now, that Luke 21 is keying off the same data to make a history of the first Mill of Church, to show how it plays, in lieu of the one scheduled. So he's not but tagging Matt24 and maybe 25, at various places. Paul keys off Matt24, dunno if he keys off Matt25, but in Paul's case he's showing a kind of prequel.

So if you think Matt25 is a tackon 1575 then have at it.


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 Post subject: Re: Place of Hypocrites
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2016, 19:21 
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What is your take on this benchmark?
Quote:
syll 130--Place of hypocrites--1768 AD Massachusetts House of Reps circulates Samuel Adam's letter, which states that Massachusetts is not and cannot be properly represented in British Parliament due to geographical distance, therefore, no taxation.


Is Jesus saying that the Colonists were stepping out of line by challenging England's authority to collect taxes?

Quote:
Mark 12:17 And Jesus said to them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

Quote:
Rom 13:1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

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 Post subject: Re: Matt 25 tackon
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2016, 20:48 
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Ok. So the Peleg thing might have been a mistake. I thought he was born in 1785 YoW, but that was the year his son was born.

However, if you use the 1757 from Matt 24 and (ellipses included), and tack-on the 364 (ending the Ten Virgins Parable), counting back from 4137 YoW, you get Noah's death in 2006 Yow (Matt 25:13--you know not the day or hour of death).

Then subtract 350 years (98+42+126+84), it takes us to the year of the flood, 1656 Yow (Matt 25:23--Put in charge of many things).

I'll have to see if I can find more benchmarks.

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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2016, 00:21 
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Well, I still don't see how it is a timeline tackon. Or even a timeline at all. Seems like three mnemonically-tagged parashot . It's still a major find, because the meters imply that ALL the Bible is metered.

But you keep playing 'your' way with it. God gave that to you.

BTW, it might help to see how the prophecy 'sandwich' works with Matt24/Eph1:3-14/Luke21: maybe Matt25 is also a sandwich, which I just learned over the weekend, viewtopic.php?f=36&t=521&p=2150#p2150


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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2016, 01:31 
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Quote:
Seems like three mnemonically-tagged parashot . It's still a major find, because the meters imply that ALL the Bible is metered.



Could you elaborate on "mnemonically-tagged parashots"? Are these common in other meters? Do you think its deliberate or just coincidence?

I mean I don't want to follow a dead end if its not a true pattern.

Yeah, I was looking at the new thread. If Matt 25 is a "sandwich", would its starting point be 30 AD too? Like stacking the meters?

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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2016, 03:29 
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Well, I'd think you'd start it at 30 AD if a standalone timeline but if it's a tackon as you're surmising, you should run it starting at the end of the last year in whatever you think the Matt24 timeline, is.

As for parashot, cleary the 364 evokes Temple and Noah in Boat as doctrinal 'tags'. There would be other 364 passages, too, maybe. I know Rev1 uses the same meter, maybe as a tag back to Matt25?

602 and 609 are new meters to me. Luke 21 uses 616. Is it a tag, too? It IS IS IS a year, namely 646 AD So what does that mean? I don't know yet.


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PostPosted: 22 Mar 2016, 09:04 
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For sure Luke is filling in the missing 14 at Christ's 476 in Matt24: total syllables at that point are 1036, so notice how Luke benchmarks 1036 and then his next verse phrase parses at 14 syllables more!

28 ending is in ellipsis (same as he started, with 28 and 35).


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PostPosted: 23 Mar 2016, 04:29 
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Sorry, time has been an issue for me lately. I am watching your videos on the Matt and Luke meters and following your progress. I'm going to go back to working on the Matt 24 chronological timeline and maybe seeing how Matt 25 fits in. I'll be updating the timeline periodically.

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PostPosted: 23 Mar 2016, 07:01 
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Well, dunno that you need to watch the videos. I'm just documenting what I learn as usual. Point for a general audience is to see the text is ORGANIZED by SYLLABLE COUNTS, which is unknown to scholars. It's a vital tool of textual criticism, and isn't getting any attention.

Always the naysayers claim we don't have real Bible (i.e., Bart Ehrman), and that it's edited. Really? Then how is it, a syllable-counting meter NO ONE KNOWS is perfect? And, that same syllable counting, was provably used by OTHER BIBLE WRITERS to craft their own stuff?

This is revolutionary. When we are long dead, the scholars will be putting all this together in the mainstream. My worry is that it becomes front-page news before we die. I'm not fond of being in the limelight. But we can't hide this under a bushel, either. So for now, just doing the grunt work of counting the syllables and for FREE putting the material 'out there' prevents it from being hidden, yet not dominating the news.


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PostPosted: 26 Mar 2016, 04:30 
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Yeah, I'm not too excited about the getting the spotlight for the meter either, but it would feel wrong to keep it secret. I think this stuff was suppressed by certain "πιστὸς καὶ φρόνιμος" Medieval church leaders. How else do you explain the fact that not a shred of evidence exists to indicate that the early Church ever knew what meter was, or how it worked. Something's wrong there.

I have a question for you. Why does the Ephesians meter start at verse 3 instead of verse 1? I noticed the same thing with Daniel 9.

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PostPosted: 26 Mar 2016, 09:45 
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Well, re the starting points for Daniel 9 and Eph1, to be honest (and sound like a goofball): I just 'knew' meter started at those verse points. I suppose you should test them, to be sure. I've not done that, given the symmetry of the results. One day I'll have to go back and test, now that I see the 'sandwich'. Could be a NESTING of the meter, so yeah maybe starting at each verse 1, yields an enclosing sevened 'paragraph'. After all, we saw it happen in Matt24, with and without Matthew's padding. I still can't tell if the Christ-only portion is packaged quotes, or if He metered while He talked.

We're all in the beginning stages of this thing.

As for Matt25, I bet the Lord is tagging 602 and 609 passages in OT. Oh, and 1036 where the 476 ends, - 434, is 602. So also the difference between Luke 21 syllable total and Matt 24, without adding in the ellipsis. Oh: and at the 560+476=1066 AD, the NEXT paragraph is the fig tree parable, and guess what? FIVE SYLLABLES into the verse (1071!) the word 'fig' begins (when Seljuks took over Jerusalem). So the 14 we see, stands for the 14 we didn't see, and we are reminded of the fifth year of the one we didn't see, that the Fig Tree was Overrun by Muslims. Proximate cause of the Crusades.

Still can't see a timeline, but if there is one, God will alert you to that and to the OT tags.

But here's another thing: Gen 1:19 benchmarks Jacob at 560, but it's dual-entendre. He would have also been 560 years old at the Exodus, which began a new 490. Jacob was born 2106 from Adam's fall, implying the 7 year lateness (counting from the start of 2100) began THEN. So that's how the Jewish 2100 is measured, also. From Jacob's birth, so that's why the original schedule for Christ's birth was 4106.

Temple is dedicated 1050th year from Jacob's BIRTH (3156-2106 YoW from Adam's Fall).

So the 105 meter, might be reconciling to that pan-Bible.

OKAY, I GOT IT. The relevance is that Jacob is the third, line of MESSIAH. :lightbulb: So the Temple the Temple depicts, is first the BLOODLINE. And it's Jacob's birth, cuz that was the promise to ABRAHAM, who didn't live long enough to see the grandkids, have kids.

AND THAT'S NOT ALL! How did I miss this for so long? Ahh, because I stopped measuring from BIRTHS!

Look: Noah is BORN 1056. So Temple is dedicated 2100 years later, 3156. Jacob was born 1050 years after Noah, in 2106.

PROOF POSITIVE THAT GOD NEVER USES LUNAR YEARS, FOR YOU MISS YOUR BIRTHDAY ISRAEL, AND SCREW UP ALL TIME AND YOUR HOLIDAYS TOO. For 1000s of years. Wow, how embarrassing.

Also, on the 63 sevens=441 as Moses' dateline for Genesis 1 and Psalm 90. It's 390 years contiguous slavery beginning 40 years after Joseph dies minus 3.5, plus 10 years for the time Joseph himself alone was enslaved, plus 40 years after that when Moses writes.

So they were indeed 430 years in Egypt, Exo 12:40-41, but not all those years were slavery. Tack on the 10 to the 390 to get the slavery 'promise' of 400 years fulfilled. But the 441 (start of year, when Moses writes) measures 40 years after the 390 (all contiguous) +the 10 (which is not), so the 63 sevens are NOT all contiguous. It's an accounting balance.

So: Moses writes 470 years after Jacob entered Egypt (1400 vs. 1870 BC). But 40 of those years weren't slavery, minus 10 of Joseph's enslavement, which were not contiguous. So, 440, with Moses writing at the beginning of the 441st year.

I say all this, because your meter in Matt25 is in three pieces (364, 602, 609) which might also be accounting pieces, esp. because Luke 21 is 1085 syllables, which is 602 short of the 1687 in Matt 24. So if Matt25 is a timeline tackon, the differential with Luke might be an interpretative key. WHAT kind of key, I don't yet know.


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PostPosted: 28 Mar 2016, 00:35 
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Ok. I counted Ephesians 1:1-2. I got 63 syllables. What I found interesting was that Paul pronounces Jesus' name as Ieisou (3 syllables), which differs from Matt and John who seem to run shorten it into Yeisou (2 syllables).

verse 1 is 39 syllables, no elisions
verse 2 is 24 syllables, 1 elision: καὶ εἰρήνη

63 syllables for the first dateline. That brings it to a total of 315 by the end of verse 10 and a total of 497 by the end of verse 14.

Maybe that will help you some more. I have an idea to test with Ephesians. I'll get back to you if it takes me somewhere.

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PostPosted: 29 Mar 2016, 16:48 
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Well, in the original, the recipient name is blank (added in the margin for Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, the latter being easier to read, in Bibleworks 9). So I don't see how you can meter verses 1-2. I get 32 or 33 with verse 1 absent en Epheswi (32 if dia pronounced dya and Iesou as two syllables). For verse 2, including the same krasis you show, I get 22 syllables, so the pregnant 54, not near 63.

Only if I count I-e-sou and di-a and en-Epheswi and ku-ri-ou, I get 39 for verse 1 and 24 for verse 2, to equal the 63. The number makes sense, but it's not consistent with the syllable counting in the rest of the letter. So either the rest of the meter is wrong, or the first two verses are not part of the meter, and the count is different. But if I count dia as two syllables and kuriou as three, I get 56. That might matter a bunch, as you'll see below.

Just the same, I've new balancing to your hypothesis about the 147 at the end. Also, I just learned some other interesting numbers, which might explain why Matt25 is metered as it is:

Pretend the Lord is finishing off the 7000, to 'what should have been the final millennium if the 2000+2000+2000 Talmudic refrain were true'.

Matt24+Matt25=3362-3150=112. So if Paul uses 56 twice... BTW, 112 years before Paul writes.. was Crassus.

Eph1:3-14+Luke 21:1-36 = 434+1085=1519. Ring a bell? JUST the text Jesus spoke in Matt24? Or, if 23 add verses 1-2 of Eph1, then 490 Eph1:1-14, plus all of Luke 21 @1085 is .. 1575, same syllable total as Matt25!

There's more, but the point is the Eph and Lukan numbers deliberately interface with both chapters. BEFORE we look at the Eph1:1-2 meter of 63 OR 56, which itself might be an enveloping dateline (same as Luke's in Luke 1 and 21).

Look: In Matt25, 364 is over 21 (takes the timeline to 2151 for Church) but shorted 14 next following in the 602 (s/b 616). That leaves a net overage for the new 1050, as 56 (616-560). Then 609 rather than 616, 7 short. For Trib (490-56 to close, then should be 616 to = 1050, but instead 609). That total with Matt24, then balances.

I wonder if the overages stress that someone won the 490 so that's why time goes over, just as happened in the past with Noah, Abraham, etc.


But there's more. I have to play with the many ways these numbers all interface, but something's deliberate, that's for sure.

PLUS, over the weekend, I pretended that the parable of the virgins was a tackon timeline. Made videos I'll post on April 3 (real Crux date) and each day after (April 6 post-sundown, being real Easter). Upshot is that each occurence of 'bridegroom' lands on a Pres who abrogated the Constitution in the name of the common folk (Andrew Jackson, Teddy Roosevelt, FDR), and the last one coincided with Hitler's rise to become Chancellor (ending at 1934, last syllable in numphios, Matt25:6). Next occurrence of 'bridegroom' is at 2061-65 AD, if this timeline is really of US history.

Gives new meaning to why Paul used 364+70 for Eph1:3-14.


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PostPosted: 30 Mar 2016, 06:01 
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Ok, I was metering Ephesians 1:1-2 in a hurry, so I didn't know en Epheswi was not part of the original text. I use Bible hub for my manuscripts, and it usually brackets textual variances. But I'm glad you caught it, because I think vs 1-2 is 56 syllables, and I agree with your parsing of the rest of Ephesians. If vs 1-2 is indeed 56 syllables, then vs 10 "To Result in the 'Filling-Up of Times' Dispensation." ends at 308.

Right now, I'm testing something with Daniel 9, and if I can prove its consistent, then it might tie Daniel 9 and Ephesians 1, in with Matt 24 & 25, and therefore Luke 21. So far I'm seeing Daniel 9 tagging the fall of Holy Rome and the Napoleonic Wars. Seems significant, but I found the pattern by accident, so I need to go further before I can be sure. If that is the case, then maybe Ephesians sandwiches with Daniel 9 in Matt 24.

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PostPosted: 30 Mar 2016, 15:20 
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Well, again the problem in treating Eph1:1-2 is that ousin kai has nothing between it, in verse 1. It's something of a stretch to make kai asensive. There is no 'ousin kai' construction in any of the mss I've got, OT or New.

Also, the breaches in Matt 24, like 1036 (sum of 560 and 476) might be personal time grant deadlines, accounting for the 364 in Matt25's virgins parable. So the personal 490 went past the historical by 21 years. The 1036 might actually be PAUL getting the 1000 in 66 AD (part of 'crown', maybe, 2Tim4:7-8).

I can't prove all that out, yet. But it might have an impact on interpretation.

BTW, the euthews at the end of verse 15 doesn't belong there. It belongs to verse 16, starting it. The versifier screwed up. So your verse 15 is over three syllables and verse 16 is short 3.


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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2016, 12:48 
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You might want to recheck your elision assumptions for Chapter 25, and maybe for Chapter 24. There seems to be a lack of consistency?

For example, in Matt25:12, seems like it shoulod be ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν Ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐκ οἶδα ὑμᾶς

Which, then ends at syllable 343, not 344. Which, then dovetails as the addon you expected to Chapter 24, since the last 147 in Chapter 24, when added to 343 is 490, ending that 2nd 1050. Which also makes more sense, as it ends the textual paragraph, with Matt 25:13 being an epilogue and introduction to the next section.

In fact, it would be a better idea to just meter from 25:1 as continuing syllables rather than starting the count over? For then the sevening might change.

Moreover, you need to parse by clause. So verse 13 would end at 363, but verse 15 instead of then ending at 434, should MAYBE end at 431, since euthews MAYBE begins the next verse, which becomes 102 syllables and the total then is perhaps 461.

I say perhaps, because I wonder if the kai_ek elisions are proper. What if they shouldn't be elided, since kai +ek sound would end up ka-ye?

There also seem to be more elisions in the end of Matt24 than are shown, in the 126+308 and in the 70+147 paras. So if you're having trouble proving the addon in Matt25, that may be why? For if I make the change bolded above, then I get more sevening showing up, in Matt 25 which seems more consistent.

Here's what I mean about the 126 para, pasted from your revised reparsed Matt24 pdf, underlining elisions to coincide with elisions made before:

32a. Ἀπὸ δὲ τῆς συκῆς μάθετε τὴν παραβολήν·(14) -- this could mark the end of the first 1050, or be a pun on the missing 14, to start a new 1050. We've been assuming the latter. Luke 21 has the same construction.
14
32b. ὅταν ἤδη ὁ κλάδος αὐτῆς γένηται ἁπαλὸς καὶ τὰ φύλλα ἐκφύῃ, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγὺς τὸ
θέρος·(33) That's if ekphuei is 3 syllables.
33οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς ὅταν ἴδητε πάντα ταῦτα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἐπὶ θύραις.(28)
34ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη ἕως ἂν πάντα ταῦτα γένηται.(28) That's if I count ews as two syllables.
35ὁ οὐρανὸς καὶ ἡ γῆ παρελεύσεται, οἱ δὲ λόγοι μου οὐ μὴ παρέλθωσιν.(22)
111

Now, let's look at the 308, where you have no elisions. I think maybe the new ones below should be accounted?

36 Περὶ δὲ τῆς ἡμέρας ἐκείνης καὶ ὥρας οὐδεὶς οἶδεν, οὐδὲ οἱ ἄγγελοι τῶν οὐρανῶν οὐδὲ ὁ Υἱός,
εἰ μὴ ὁ Πατὴρ μόνος. (39)
37 ὥσπερ γὰρ αἱ ἡμέραι τοῦ Νῶε, οὕτως ἔσται ἡ παρουσία τοῦ Υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου. (26)
38 ὡς γὰρ ἦσαν ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις ἐκείναις ταῖς πρὸ τοῦ κατακλυσμοῦ τρώγοντες
καὶ πίνοντες, γαμοῦντες καὶ γαμίζοντες, =34
ἄχρι ἧς ἡμέρας εἰσῆλθεν Νῶε εἰς τὴν κιβωτόν, =15
39 καὶ οὐκ ἔγνωσαν ἕως ἦλθεν ὁ κατακλυσμὸς καὶ ἦρεν ἅπαντας, οὕτως ἔσται καὶ ἡ παρουσία τοῦ Υἱοῦ τοῦ
ἀνθρώπου. (86) =37 so revised total is still 86, if ews is counted as two syllables.

40 τότε ἔσονται δύο ἐν τῷ ἀγρῷ, εἷς παραλαμβάνεται καὶ εἷς ἀφίεται· (22)
41 δύο ἀλήθουσαι ἐν τῷ μύλῳ, μία παραλαμβάνεται καὶ μία ἀφίεται. (24)
42 γρηγορεῖτε οὖν, ὅτι οὐκ οἴδατε ποίᾳ ἡμέρᾳ ὁ κύριος ὑμῶν ἔρχεται. (25)
43 ἐκεῖνο δὲ γινώσκετε ὅτι εἰ ᾔδει ὁ οἰκοδεσπότης ποίᾳ φυλακῇ ὁ κλέπτης ἔρχεται, ἐγρηγόρησεν
ἂν καὶ οὐκ ἂν εἴασεν διορυχθῆναι τὴν οἰκίαν αὐτοῦ. (52)

44 διὰ τοῦτο καὶ ὑμεῖς γίνεσθε ἕτοιμοι, ὅτι ᾗ οὐ δοκεῖτε ὥρᾳ ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἔρχεται. (31)

So three fewer in the 308 para. 111 +305=416. If ews is only one syllable, then total goes down to 414, so maybe there is yet another elision. Notice that through v.43, if ews is two syllables, your new sevening ends at verse 43, and is 385 (55 sevens). So then the final 217 might really be 217+31 (for verse 44), and then you'll find new elisions. Perhaps..

45 Τίς ἄρα ἐστὶν ὁ πιστὸς δοῦλος καὶ φρόνιμος ὃν κατέστησεν ὁ κύριος ἐπὶ τῆς οἰκετείας αὐτοῦ
τοῦ δοῦναι αὐτοῖς τὴν τροφὴν ἐν καιρῷ; (43)
46 μακάριος ὁ δοῦλος ἐκεῖνος ὃν ἐλθὼν ὁ κύριος αὐτοῦ εὑρήσει οὕτως ποιοῦντα· (26)
70 69
47 ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι ἐπὶ πᾶσιν τοῖς ὑπάρχουσιν αὐτοῦ καταστήσει αὐτόν. (25)
48 ἐὰν δὲ εἴπῃ ὁ κακὸς δοῦλος ἐκεῖνος ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ Χρονίζει μου ὁ κύριος,
49 καὶ ἄρξηται τύπτειν τοὺς συνδούλους αὐτοῦ, ἐσθίῃ δὲ καὶ πίνῃ μετὰ τῶν μεθυόντων,
50 ἥξει ὁ κύριος τοῦ δούλου ἐκείνου ἐν ἡμέρᾳ ᾗ οὐ προσδοκᾷ καὶ ἐν ὥρᾳ ᾗ οὐ γινώσκει, (83)
51 καὶ διχοτομήσει αὐτὸν καὶ τὸ μέρος αὐτοῦ μετὰ τῶν ὑποκριτῶν θήσει· ἐκεῖ ἔσται ὁ κλαυθμὸς
καὶ ὁ βρυγμὸς τῶν ὀδόντων. (37)
147 145 , so 31+69+145=245 (35 sevens) , which may help justify the tackon claim for Matt25, since the meter isn't over yet. Because, the new total becomes 385+245=490+70+70.

Not saying these changes are right, but we have to be consistent about elisions. We can't use the same elision assumption in one section then abandon it in another.

And maybe we don't have ellipsis for the 56? Cuz look: the virgins parable is 364, which is meaningful, and +70 in prior chapter as cliffhanger, then completes the Daniel 9:26, 434. So now we need 56 more in Matt25, not 24, to finish out the 2nd 1050. But the elision changes will make a difference in whether that 56 can be 'found' or not.

Your call. You've really come up with something major, and my comments are just that.. comments.


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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2016, 17:52 
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Ok, I'll take another look at the elisions.

I still think Matt 25 is a tack-on, but I also think there is an ellipsis between Matt 24 and 25. I'm working on that now, but its taking more time than I expected....but results are looking really good so far.

I'm usually hesitant about eliding 'de' because I'm not sure if the grammar is coherent when the text is recited out loud. Maybe Matt 25 is wrong?

I'll take a second look though. Thanks, you're comments are always helpful.

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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2016, 19:55 
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Okay, whatever you come up with, I'm sure will be important. :)


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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2016, 20:55 
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In Matt 24:40, don't you think eliding 'tote-esontai' is making the speech rhythm a little awkward?

Which sounds smoother to you?

Tote-sontai dou...

Or

Tote, esontai dou...

"Tote" introduces a new clause, like saying "then", so wouldn't that put a syntactical comma or pause between tote and esontai?


I really don't how the speech rhythm is supposed to work, I'm just going off of principles that I use in spanish and english.

What's your opinion?

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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2016, 15:40 
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Yeah, that was one of the extra ellisions. I think your totals are likely right, but the elisions are different. Tote esontai probably is Tot'esontai when read aloud. Usually it's the particle or conjunction whose ending vowel gets swallowed, as in apo, kai, etc. But like you said, if the sense of the word is lost by swallowing, I'd think we're supposed to read it without ellision.

The other big thing: maybe there's no 70 in ellipsis after all. Maybe also, in Matt 25, that last para about the 2nd Coming, is not a timeline. Maybe the timeline ends with the parable of the talents.

Look for doubled 70's; or, 126's (63+63). Or, your favorite, 133 (70+63). Maybe that's what Isaiah originally meant, though the DECREE significance is still obvious, too. Decree, then VOTE.

For I think that the Lord is reconciling the pre-Church 1050 schedule with Church. Since He actually dies 64 years prior to Mill (at beginning of sacred year), the VOTING PERIODS overlap. So instead of the voting period post-Cross being 520-590 AD, it's ALSO (historically) 584-654. Or, maybe the 1050's don't change post-Cross, and I have to redo GeneYrs.xls post-Cross. In short, what you've discovered can radically change how we analyze the timeline!

What I'm trying to say is, Church has its own 1050 superimposed atop the historical 1050. That's what the Lord and Luke seem to be enumerating.

I think to show the meter you need to go by CLAUSE. You can try by verse, but notice the pattern in the Luke 21 meter, for I think he gets it from Matt24-25.

Luke first counts to Mill and then starts a new 1050, so that the 'old' calendar is preserved. Total in Luke is 1085, which is the sum of 35, his years-to-Mill when writing, plus the 1050 on the old pre-Church schedule. YET he also COUNTS that 63 opener as being part of the 1050. At Matt 24:32, 'Learn the parable of the fig tree' clause, which is 14 syllables, Luke marks a clause of same length, so you could COUNT it and end at 1050 rather than 1036 (just before v.32 begins). So we're looking at TWO 1050 mappings, pre-Church and Church!

Seems like the Lord did that, first, treating Matt24-25 as you suspected as one whole, starting with 63 then 1050x3 then ends with 49. For the syllable count then is the same as your total count. So if you break by clause, you might 'find' the 63 in the first two verses, and 'find' the breakpoints of each 1050, and the final 49.

In short, He seems to be playing out the Talmudic 7000, but with the real 1050's, not merely 2000 each.

63 then becomes the first dateline, meaning at the end of the year it's 63 years to Mill (still 30 AD), and 63 years prior was 33 BC when Augustus was still Octavian and just coming into power over Anthony (when 2nd Triumverate died).

The final 609 para on eternity, might instead be not part of the timeline. In which case, the timeline ends at 63+1050+1050+490.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2016, 21:46 
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Ok. I'm looking over Matt 24 again. I got rid of the elision in 'Tot-ean' in vers 23. I was always hesitant about that on. Again, I feel that there should be a brief pause after words like tote and de.

Then in verse 27, I elided 'hei astrapei' to 'hei-strapei'. Basically if you where to say "the lightning" in English, the words are usually run together. You could argue that the same principle should be applied in verse 43, 'ho oikodespoteis', but I would disagree. If it was 'ho-oko', then maybe yes, but 'hoikodespoteis' does not make sense to me when spoken out loud.


So far, only one elision change, I would not be comfortable with the phonetics in the 308 or the 70 if I made any elisions there.

Still got more to look over, so I'll let you know.

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PostPosted: 10 Apr 2016, 07:23 
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Roger your post. Do the parsing by clause, then it will be easier to see where the ellisions go. You should end up with 63 as your first sevening, then still your 84, then most of the other ones, but the style is years-to-Mill (which is 63) plus 490+70+490 taking Matt24-25 as one chapter; so your sevenings will change, even if the same syllable counts. The total will be the 63 over plus 2100 + 490 plus maybe a 70 ellipsis, by the time you get to the end of Matt 25:30 (now your syllable 966, which total will change if you lump the chapters together). By the time you end the chapter, you should have 3 1050s plus an overage of 49 + 63 and/or maybe the ellipsis of the 70.

You should find that the 490+70+490s break cleanly, if you do by clause rather than by verse. Totals seem right but elisions change the subsevens. I can tell it's deliberate, either playing on the Messiah 2000 or the whole Enochian 7000 (really 1050 per, but you know that). Christ is reconciling the old pre-Church Timeline to the 'Church' superimposed 1050 changeover, so the extra 63 is to count up to the old Millennium deadline, first. But it just runs over in the totals, at the end.


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PostPosted: 10 Apr 2016, 09:33 
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Understood. It'll be a while before I can look closer at matt 24. I've hit a few snags in what I'm working on now and had to fix some mistakes I made. But so far this is really blowing my mind.

Look at Daniel 9:25

מִן־מֹצָ֣א דָבָ֗ר לְהָשִׁיב֙

You have that portion listed as 7 syllables, but I counted 8. If you add the 6 (weteda' wetashkel)+ 8 (min mozsa dabar lehashiv), you get sub-sevening (6+8=14). By the time you reach "Yerushalim" its a total of 84 syllables (starting from vers 24). The decree to restore Jerusalem.

You have: 6+7+7+21+10+6=57

So far I've got: 6+8+7+21+9+6=57

I think that your ellipses of 14 and 56 in Matt 24 is correct, because so far Daniel's 231 is picking up where Matt 24:51 left off. The 84th syllable (Jerusalem Decree) from Dan 9:24-25 seems to be tagging 1869 AD, when Nahalat Shiva becomes the 3rd major settlement out side of the city walls in Jerusalem. It was funded by a Jewish money pool.

The "Decree to Restore" (לְהָשִׁיב֙) is the 77th syllable from Dan 9:24 corresponds to Moses Hess' publication, "Rome and Jerusalem" in 1862 AD. It was a call for a Jewish homeland in Palestine with Jerusalem as the capital. That publication fueled the modern Zionist movement.

This is crazy, I never expected to see and tagging related to the modern Israeli state.

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PostPosted: 10 Apr 2016, 09:52 
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Okay, well I don't think that's how God's reply to Daniel works (forward timeline into Church Age, since God's reply regards Jewish Time only), but hey: run with it, who knows.


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PostPosted: 10 Apr 2016, 10:14 
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That's exactly what I was thinking too. First I tried the 231+7 from Ephesians, but really couldn't lock on to anything, so I figured I might as well try Daniel. When I was looking at Ephesians, I was looking at American history. I think that's why I couldn't get a pattern, I was just about to give up on Daniel too, but then I noticed a lot of trends between Napoleon, Holy Rome, and the Ottomans. I need to see how far it goes, then maybe Ephesians will click. Since the Church is just an indefinite extension of the 62nd Week, it might work.

What if the numbers are like universal puzzle pieces? Like maybe any 133 can be transplanted from one meter onto another 133 meter to develop a more detailed timeline?

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PostPosted: 10 Apr 2016, 22:53 
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Well, it seems more like the Enochian Timeline idea but there ends up being an overhang (past 7350) of 49. So not exactly interchangeable puzzle pieces, but it's strange how you have to take the first clause of the fig tree parable to complete the second 490 (really 63+ to reconcile to pre-Church, but the recon isn't until the end).

So the 434 you had, becomes 420, and then that 70 piece completes to 490, so the 147 remaining becomes 70+77 (which is why I want to see it reparsed by clause, as I think those benchmarks will show up). End Chapter 24.

Chapter 25 then has the 364 appended but needs another 49, which is taken from the parable of the talents at beginning, closing the second 1050. Again, parsing by clause ought to show these benchmarks.

So now its 602 becomes 553, starting the 3rd and last 1050, which when added to those before Christ, would end at 7350. So remaining, take 7 from the last 609 (which is even more strange, as its text is about 2nd advent and eternity), leaving again.. 602. All you need of it, is 490, so then 112 left over, which is our 63 equidistant ending, and then an overhang PAST 7350, of 49. Clearly making up for the REAL lost sabbatical years back during Rehoboam through 1st Temple.

Now, there still could be some ellipsis, but it doesn't look like any is intended. The above scenario is EXACTLY structured like Luke 21, but for a longer time period. Luke aligns precisely to Matt 24 at 63, 1036, 1050. All the Matt 25 text is covered in EARLIER Luke chapters, so I don't know why (well, the virgins parable isn't presented as virgins, but similarly sitting and waiting for a master at midnight).

In sum, I think the timeline is saying that although the Rapture could occur ANYTIME, it can also continue (and seems implied likely to continue) until the end of the Enochian 7000 which is really 1050*7, plus the credit owed on the 49 missed sabbatical years which Israel 'spent' so the Gentile Time must get that credit.

So AT LEAST that long to 'balance' to some other original timeline, which kinda baffles me, given how Moses didn't meter it that way in Psalm 90 (unless the meter really is double entendre, 7 fifties as well as five 70's). So were there TWO TIMELINES FOR HISTORY pre-Church? Or is that last 1050, supposed to be the Mill, and the previous 2100 is for 'Messiah' just as Talmud Sanhedrin 97-99 claim? In which case, the Rapture is unpredictable for a different reason: because we FAIL as Church, so God has to call us home. Just so happens that when we fail, we are complete in Bodies, just as Christ paid, on time.

So maybe it's as simple as a Time BUDGET similar to what Israel had, but NO TIME GUARANTEE it will complete. Just a schedule. Which, is not very different from pre-Church, in that the goyim were to get 2100 years, then the Jews 2100 years, then Messiah gets His Own 2100, just as we see in garbled form, in the Talmud. EXCEPT that 'our' 2100 is NOT guaranteed to complete. Maybe THAT is why the end of the 1036 doesn't textually end well, but requires that next verse on 'learn from the parable of the fig tree', which is 14 syllables, overlapping the text meaning. And so on, to the end of Chapter 25.

Multiple Time Books being balanced. But this is the first instance of the Enochian 7000 idea I've found in the Bible.

If so, and Rapture happens early, did God not keep some old TIME promise? DID it become abrogated? Does it include some Angelic Time? Questions, questions.


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2016, 01:13 
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What do you mean by Enochian Timeline? I've heard people claim a time period of 5,500 years from the Book of Adam or one of the books of Enoch, but I'm not into that stuff.

So far, my hypothesis on the Rapture is one of 'potential imminence' rather than 'random imminence'. What I mean is, the Rapture seems to be contingent on three factors:

1) Volition and maturity of the king(s)
2) Allotted growth time for the king(s)
3) King-to-citizen ratio

So, if too many citizens, then a new king is needed. If too many kings, then more citizens are needed. In either case, time is needed for the maturity of the kings or the salvation of the citizens.

When all three of these factors line up, then Rapture can happen.

I also wonder if the meter shows exit points like on a highway. If you're driving down the interstate, you can't just get off whenever you feel like it. You have to watch for the next exit. So what if Paul's "what if's" were more than that? What if he was laying out potential exit points that the Church missed due to spritual stagnation/atrophy?

Anyways, that is one hypothesis that I'd like to test. I've never given Enoch much thought, but he was taken from the earth, so it might be significant.

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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2016, 02:53 
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Ok, I would not elide Νῶε εἰς in Matt 24:38. It doesn't sound right to me, and it brings the count down to 85. I already have ἕως as two syllables. Try counting that again.

However, you can elide καὶ ἦρεν in verse 39.

So for Matt 36-39b, ending at Υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, I get 150 syllables, which is the number of days the flood waters persisted. I do like that.

Ok, I applied the elisions you suggested with a few modifications of my own to correct a mistake I think you made in your counts.

32a. Ἀπὸ δὲ τῆς συκῆς μάθετε τὴν παραβολήν•(14)
14 syllables

32b. ὅταν ἤδη ὁ κλάδος αὐτῆς γένηται ἁπαλὸς καὶ τὰ φύλλα ἐκφύῃ, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγὺς τὸ θέρος•(32)
33οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς ὅταν ἴδητε πάντα ταῦτα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἐπὶ θύραις.(28)
34ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη ἕως ἂν πάντα ταῦτα γένηται.(28)
35ὁ οὐρανὸς καὶ ἡ γῆ παρελεύσεται, οἱ δὲ λόγοι μου οὐ μὴ παρέλθωσιν.(22)
36Περὶ δὲ τῆς ἡμέρας ἐκείνης καὶ ὥρας οὐδεὶς οἶδεν, οὐδὲ οἱ ἄγγελοι τῶν οὐρανῶν οὐδὲ ὁ Υἱός, εἰ μὴ ὁ Πατὴρ μόνος.(39)
37ὥσπερ γὰρ αἱ ἡμέραι τοῦ Νῶε, οὕτως ἔσται ἡ παρουσία τοῦ Υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου.(26)
175 syllables

38ὡς γὰρ ἦσαν ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις ἐκείναις ταῖς πρὸ τοῦ κατακλυσμοῦ τρώγοντες καὶ πίνοντες, γαμοῦντες καὶ γαμίζοντες, ἄχρι ἧς ἡμέρας εἰσῆλθεν Νῶε εἰς τὴν κιβωτόν,(50)
39a.καὶ οὐκ ἔγνωσαν ἕως ἦλθεν ὁ κατακλυσμὸς καὶ ἦρεν ἅπαντας,(19)
39b.οὕτως ἔσται καὶ ἡ παρουσία τοῦ Υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου.(16)
40τότε ἔσονται δύο ἐν τῷ ἀγρῷ, εἷς παραλαμβάνεται καὶ εἷς ἀφίεται•(24)
41δύο ἀλήθουσαι ἐν τῷ μύλῳ, μία παραλαμβάνεται καὶ μία ἀφίεται.(24)
133 syllables

42γρηγορεῖτε οὖν, ὅτι οὐκ οἴδατε ποίᾳ ἡμέρᾳ ὁ κύριος ὑμῶν ἔρχεται.(25)
43ἐκεῖνο δὲ γινώσκετε ὅτι εἰ ᾔδει ὁ οἰκοδεσπότης ποίᾳ φυλακῇ ὁ κλέπτης ἔρχεται, ἐγρηγόρησεν ἂν καὶ οὐκ ἂν εἴασεν διορυχθῆναι τὴν οἰκίαν αὐτοῦ.(52)
77 syllables

44διὰ τοῦτο καὶ ὑμεῖς γίνεσθε ἕτοιμοι, ὅτι ᾗ οὐ δοκεῖτε ὥρᾳ ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἔρχεται.(32)
45Τίς ἄρα ἐστὶν ὁ πιστὸς δοῦλος καὶ φρόνιμος ὃν κατέστησεν ὁ κύριος ἐπὶ τῆς οἰκετείας αὐτοῦ τοῦ δοῦναι αὐτοῖς τὴν τροφὴν ἐν καιρῷ;(43)
46μακάριος ὁ δοῦλος ἐκεῖνος ὃν ἐλθὼν ὁ κύριος αὐτοῦ εὑρήσει οὕτως ποιοῦντα•(26)
47ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι ἐπὶ πᾶσιν τοῖς ὑπάρχουσιν αὐτοῦ καταστήσει αὐτόν.(25)
126 syllables

48ἐὰν δὲ εἴπῃ ὁ κακὸς δοῦλος ἐκεῖνος ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ Χρονίζει μου ὁ κύριος, 49καὶ ἄρξηται τύπτειν τοὺς συνδούλους αὐτοῦ, ἐσθίῃ δὲ καὶ πίνῃ μετὰ τῶν μεθυόντων, 50ἥξει ὁ κύριος τοῦ δούλου ἐκείνου ἐν ἡμέρᾳ ᾗ οὐ προσδοκᾷ καὶ ἐν ὥρᾳ ᾗ οὐ γινώσκει,(82)
51a.καὶ διχοτομήσει αὐτὸν καὶ τὸ μέρος αὐτοῦ μετὰ τῶν ὑποκριτῶν θήσει•(23)
105 syllables

51b.ἐκεῖ ἔσται ὁ κλαυθμὸς καὶ ὁ βρυγμὸς τῶν ὀδόντων.
14 syllables

Ok, so this is what I came up with. I pushed for more elisions and found more subsevening. However, I'm not comfortable with some of these elisions;
καρδίᾳ-αὐτοῦ
δὲ-εἴπῃ
αὐτοῦ-εὑρήσει (I really don't like this one at all. I don't like to elide H's)
ὁ-οἰκοδεσπότης
ἐκεῖ-ἔσται

At the same time, I do see what you mean with Matt 25. I'll have to reparse the beginning of Matt 24 and all of 25 before we can make any further assumptions. So far, a total of 7 syllables have been elided, so maybe more will disappear.

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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2016, 14:03 
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My replies are within yours, but in bright blue.

Anonynomenon wrote:
What do you mean by Enochian Timeline? I've heard people claim a time period of 5,500 years from the Book of Adam or one of the books of Enoch, but I'm not into that stuff. Well, I don't believe in Enoch either, but it posits a total 7000 years, and somewhere in Talmud the 'week' of 1000's (really 1050's) is stated. The total timeline ends up 7350 plus 49, if ALL of Matt 24-25 is a timeline.

So far, my hypothesis on the Rapture is one of 'potential imminence' rather than 'random imminence'. What I mean is, the Rapture seems to be contingent on three factors:

1) Volition and maturity of the king(s)
2) Allotted growth time for the king(s)
3) King-to-citizen ratio

So, if too many citizens, then a new king is needed. If too many kings, then more citizens are needed. In either case, time is needed for the maturity of the kings or the salvation of the citizens.

When all three of these factors line up, then Rapture can happen.

I also wonder if the meter shows exit points like on a highway. If you're driving down the interstate, you can't just get off whenever you feel like it. You have to watch for the next exit. So what if Paul's "what if's" were more than that? What if he was laying out potential exit points that the Church missed due to spritual stagnation/atrophy? Yeah, all those hypotheses, make sense. POTENTIALS mapped, a rolling actuarial table of spiritual maturation (or morbidity) contingencies.

Anyways, that is one hypothesis that I'd like to test. I've never given Enoch much thought, but he was taken from the earth, so it might be significant.


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2016, 14:26 
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Again, my replies are within yours, in bright blue. But these proposed changes may be different if per-clause parsings and cumulative totals were run, because those latter two mechanics reveal where ellisions belong.

Anonynomenon wrote:
Ok, I would not elide Νῶε εἰς in Matt 24:38. It doesn't sound right to me, and it brings the count down to 85. I already have ἕως as two syllables. Try counting that again. Okay, don't elide it then but I bet you money ews is ONE syllable. Try that (it recurs in the passage). It wouldn't be an ellision, but how the word is pronounced. I say one, because it's a preposition, so common in use it would be elided, though the same ending in larger words probably is spoken as two syllables.

However, you can elide καὶ ἦρεν in verse 39. Agreed.

So for Matt 36-39b, ending at Υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, I get 150 syllables, which is the number of days the flood waters persisted. I do like that.

Ok, I applied the elisions you suggested with a few modifications of my own to correct a mistake I think you made in your counts. Okay, well the suggestions were just that. I'm not sure they are right. Parsing by clause will help you prove whether the ellisions are right.

32a. Ἀπὸ δὲ τῆς συκῆς μάθετε τὴν παραβολήν•(14)
14 syllables

32b. ὅταν ἤδη ὁ κλάδος αὐτῆς γένηται ἁπαλὸς καὶ τὰ φύλλα ἐκφύῃ, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγὺς τὸ θέρος• (32) I think φύῃ is but one syllable, but no ellision and still 32, because ἐκφύῃ is already only two syllables and the fronting e conveys tense. Also, I've never seen φύλλα elided.
33 οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς ὅταν ἴδητε πάντα ταῦτα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἐπὶ θύραις. (28)
34 ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη ἕως ἂν πάντα ταῦτα γένηται. (28) 27, if ews 1 syll.
35 ὁ οὐρανὸς καὶ ἡ γῆ παρελεύσεται, οἱ δὲ λόγοι μου οὐ μὴ παρέλθωσιν. (22)
36 Περὶ δὲ τῆς ἡμέρας ἐκείνης καὶ ὥρας οὐδεὶς οἶδεν, 17
οὐδὲ οἱ ἄγγελοι τῶν οὐρανῶν οὐδὲ ὁ Υἱός, 15
εἰ μὴ ὁ Πατὴρ μόνος. 7 (39)
37 ὥσπερ γὰρ αἱ ἡμέραι τοῦ Νῶε, οὕτως ἔσται ἡ παρουσία τοῦ Υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου. (26) I get 25, if Νῶε is pronounced at 1 syll (N-we).
175 syllables 173, but still 175 if red ellisions removed from vv 32b and 35.

38 ὡς γὰρ ἦσαν ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις ἐκείναις ταῖς
πρὸ τοῦ κατακλυσμοῦ τρώγοντες καὶ πίνοντες, (13+13=26)
γαμοῦντες καὶ γαμίζοντες, (8, He's playing on rhythm)
ἄχρι ἧς ἡμέρας εἰσῆλθεν Νῶε εἰς τὴν κιβωτόν,(15, so sum is 50-1=49 subseven; the days BETWEEN.)
39a. καὶ οὐκ ἔγνωσαν ἕως ἦλθεν ὁ κατακλυσμὸς καὶ ἦρεν ἅπαντας, (19) 18 if ews is 1 syll.
39b. οὕτως ἔσται καὶ ἡ παρουσία τοῦ Υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου. (16)
40 τότε ἔσονται δύο ἐν τῷ ἀγρῷ, εἷς παραλαμβάνεται καὶ εἷς ἀφίεται• (24) Tot'esontai, so 23, and aphyetai pronounced, so 22.
41 δύο ἀλήθουσαι ἐν τῷ μύλῳ, μία παραλαμβάνεται καὶ μία ἀφίεται. (24) Deduct 3 if 'mya' and 'aphyetai' pronounced. Total vers 39a-40 is 56 subseven, and v.41 becomes 21.
133 syllables 126 @ 49+56+21

42 γρηγορεῖτε οὖν, ὅτι οὐκ οἴδατε ποίᾳ ἡμέρᾳ ὁ κύριος ὑμῶν ἔρχεται. (25) Presumes kurios is 3 syll.
43 ἐκεῖνο δὲ γινώσκετε
ὅτι εἰ ᾔδει ὁ οἰκοδεσπότης ποίᾳ φυλακῇ ὁ κλέπτης ἔρχεται, 29, if switching ellision (can't have two ellisions running together, so like you I now won't elide ὁ οἰκοδεσπότης ), in two clauses: an 8 and a 21.
ἐγρηγόρησεν ἂν καὶ οὐκ ἂν εἴασεν διορυχθῆναι τὴν οἰκίαν αὐτοῦ. 23 (52)
77 syllables but now @ 25+8+21+23

44 διὰ τοῦτο καὶ ὑμεῖς γίνεσθε ἕτοιμοι, ὅτι ᾗ οὐ δοκεῖτε ὥρᾳ ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἔρχεται.(31)
45 Τίς ἄρα ἐστὶν ὁ πιστὸς δοῦλος καὶ φρόνιμος ὃν κατέστησεν ὁ κύριος ἐπὶ τῆς οἰκετείας αὐτοῦ τοῦ δοῦναι αὐτοῖς τὴν τροφὴν ἐν καιρῷ; (43)
46 μακάριος ὁ δοῦλος ἐκεῖνος ὃν ἐλθὼν ὁ κύριος αὐτοῦ εὑρήσει οὕτως ποιοῦντα•(27) 43+27=70!
47 ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι ἐπὶ πᾶσιν τοῖς ὑπάρχουσιν αὐτοῦ καταστήσει αὐτόν. (25)
126 syllables @31+70+25

48 ἐὰν δὲ εἴπῃ ὁ κακὸς δοῦλος ἐκεῖνος 12
ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ Χρονίζει μου ὁ κύριος, 14, if kurios is 3 syll
49 καὶ ἄρξηται τύπτειν τοὺς συνδούλους αὐτοῦ, 12 again; subseven of 63 from v.47
ἐσθίῃ δὲ καὶ πίνῃ μετὰ τῶν μεθυόντων, 14 again.
50 ἥξει ὁ κύριος τοῦ δούλου ἐκείνου ἐν ἡμέρᾳ ᾗ οὐ προσδοκᾷ 21
καὶ ἐν ὥρᾳ ᾗ οὐ γινώσκει, 9 (82)
51a. καὶ διχοτομήσει αὐτὸν καὶ τὸ μέρος αὐτοῦ μετὰ τῶν ὑποκριτῶν θήσει• (23)
105 syllables

51b. ἐκεῖ ἔσται ὁ κλαυθμὸς καὶ ὁ βρυγμὸς τῶν ὀδόντων.
14 syllables =119 total

So if 14+175+(49+56+21=126)+77+126+119=637; or 14 to close off prior 476 which ends 1st 1050, then 175+21+105=301+(77+126+119=)322=623.

So assuming that the prior Matt24 total syllable counts are still accurate (though I think the ellisions are different), 560+476+14=1050 +623 is the new sum, 1673. So notice the reconciliation between pre- and post-Church 1050: Christ talks, not counting the year He talks, 63 years before the Mill would have begun. Add 1050. Add 560. Sum? 1673! So you should find a subseven of 63 if you parse by clause, mid-way in Matt24:2.

If Matt 25 is still right in the totals though I think the ellisions are different, then 1673+1575 = 3248; The time denominated is 63 to pre-Church Mill, then 1050+1050+1050+35. Matt 24 takes you 63+1050+560, then Matt25 is tacked on and is 490, closing 2nd 1050; then 490+70+490 to close 3rd 1050, w/ rolling remainder of +63, now +35 = 98, number metaphor of the original Mill when Christ was supposed to be in His 98th year. Because that 2nd 1050 is split with the carryover 63, you have your smoking gun that Matt 25 is a tack-on timeline. And for extra good measure, the close totals 1050+63+35; Luke 21, written only 35 years to Mill, uses the same style so ends with 1085; it reassigns the Matt25 text to earlier Luke chapters.

YoW Christ died treated as gone, then 4137+3248 = 7385 - 7350 = 35. Meaning, it ain't necessarily over, but nothing after that point is listed. Maybe later NT passages like Revelation, 'add' to that 35.


Ok, so this is what I came up with. I pushed for more elisions and found more subsevening. However, I'm not comfortable with some of these elisions;
καρδίᾳ-αὐτοῦ
δὲ-εἴπῃ
αὐτοῦ-εὑρήσει (I really don't like this one at all. I don't like to elide H's) Agreed, rough breathing isn't elided.
ὁ-οἰκοδεσπότης I removed that, too.
ἐκεῖ-ἔσται

At the same time, I do see what you mean with Matt 25. I'll have to reparse the beginning of Matt 24 and all of 25 before we can make any further assumptions. So far, a total of 7 syllables have been elided, so maybe more will disappear.


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2016, 05:21 
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I decided to look at Matt 24:1-2 to see if I should change my elisions. It doesn't feel right to do so. I found a rhythm to the text once you separate Matthews padding from Jesus' words.

This is verse 2 transliterated without Matthews padding. The elision will be in red, but try to see the rhythm. The dashes will show how some syllables piggyback each other to form a rhythm.

"Ou--blepete panta--tauta?" (8 syll)
"Amein lego humin (6 syll), ou-mei aphethei hode (6 syll) lithos epi lithon (6 syll) hos ou--kata-luthei-setai." (8 syll).

Try drumming on the desk as you read it; 8+6+6+6+8.


If you elide δὲ εἴπῃ in verse 48, then you have to be consistent in eliding δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς in verse 2. If you do that, then you can't elide μὴ ἀφεθῇ in verse 2, and you therefore lose the poetic cadence of our Lord's words.

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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2016, 07:58 
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Yeah, definitely a rhythm, like marching, 'foot' classical Greek*. Dia touto, here's what seems to be a better metering for Matt24:1-2. Syllable totals the same, but ellisions not:

1 Καὶ ἐξελθὼν ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἀπὸ τοῦ ἱεροῦ ἐπορεύετο (pronounced epo-ruWEHto), 16
The first seven syllables coincide with Paul's Eulogetos ho theos, and krasis still means a ka-ye sound, so no ellision.
καὶ προσῆλθον οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ ἐπιδεῖξαι 14/30
αὐτῷ τὰς οἰκοδομὰς τοῦ ἱεροῦ. 10/40

2 ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς 9/49 First dateline. 49 years prior, Herod started Temple rebuilding. 49 years later, Vespasian (guy in charge of Jeru siege), dies. So too Pompeii. Those would become famous and poignant dates. Of course, 'God speaks' when you die or natural disaster. Ouch.
Οὐ βλέπετε ταῦτα πάντα; 8/57 He was supposed to die 57 years prior to Mill.
ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, 6/63 Christ talks here AND dies BOY 64 yrs pre-Church Mill on sacred, but 63 on civil. 63 years prior, ended the 2nd Triumvirate. Ties topically, cuz had this not happened, there'd have been no Herod to rebuild the Temple, he was on Antony's side.
οὐ μὴ ἀφεθῇ ὧδε λίθος 9/72 Balances to first clause, same rhythm.
ἐπὶ λίθον ὃς οὐ καταλυθήσεται. 12/84
Poignant again, the 12 tribes will go into diaspora or as slaves, accompany Titus to his Dad Emperor Vespasian, in Rome during the latter's first year of reign (Vesp crowned Dec 22 '69).

I don't agree that de-eipe must always be the same as de apokritheis, such that if one elided then the other must be also. However, often they both should be elided. Also, eta is not usually ellided unless the next sound is the same kind; but the epsilon often is, since it's short.

*Re that rhythm you notice, You'll remember this from Thieme's classes on Titus 1:12. Seems like Matthew and/or the Lord is composing both Bible meter and sometimes (as here) partial classical Greek meters?

http://www.aoidoi.org/articles/meter/intro.pdf This one is really helpful.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_vall ... glish.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dactylic_hexameter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexameter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexameter


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PostPosted: 13 Apr 2016, 06:13 
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Ok. I reparsed Matt 24 by clause. The portion highlighted in yellow is what I had the most trouble with, so take a look at it, and tell me what you think.

The total is 1680 syllables, which is 7 shorter than we originally thought. The 14 in verse 32a marks the 1050 point. That is pretty blunt.

Have at it. I'm exhausted yet again. Good nite.


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PostPosted: 13 Apr 2016, 11:34 
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It is exhausting, alright! And apparently you thought I meant legal clause rather than grammatical clause? In my just-prior post I separated verses 1-2 by grammatical clause, whether it sevens or not, because non-sevening has doctrinal meaning as well.

A grammatical clause begins with a preposition or a kai, and the commas though not part of the original text, help you spot clauses which terminate. When a nominative terminates with a verb, then another nominative, that next nominative begins a new grammatical clause. A sentence may have one or more clauses in it, but the clauses are natural 'subsets' of the sentence.

Now, if you think the grammatical clauses are different, then do what you think is better, but it's by CLAUSE where the sevening shows up best. Note how the clauses for 49 and 63, are on something God (or Christ, since He's also God) SAYS.

The whole chapter needs to be done that way, with cum totals per grammatical clause, as in my prior post, though you pick the style you want, to show it. Same for Matt 25.

As for the yellowed paragraph from Matt24:28-31, I thought you didn't want to elide rough breathing? Agreed that you shouldn't, so that whole section's numbers need to be redone as well. Doing by clause helps you know where ellision is to be used, as well. Also, spotting dipthongs, like in eporeueto. The eue is a weh sound. So it's not an ellision, but a dipthong (where combined vowels are pronounced as one syllable).

Take a break for awhile.


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PostPosted: 13 Apr 2016, 15:15 
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K. I'll have to brush up on my grammar and look it over again. I guess the problem is that I keep second guessing myself


I didn't want to elide the hard breathing, but look at verse 14.

Vs 14 kai tot-heixei to telos.

If I elide, the paragraph is 77. Do you consider "kai tot-heixei to telos" a clause of its own? Like a tagg along clause? If it is, then its 70+7 (the "end" being tribulation).

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PostPosted: 14 Apr 2016, 07:48 
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yeah, a clause begins with kai, but I'd not elide over rough breathing. However, look at all the prepositions which elide their last vowel IN WRITING just before rough breathing, like met' heautou. The apostrophe is in the text. Even so, I've not elided with rough breathing following. So I'd use kai tote heixei to telos.


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PostPosted: 14 Apr 2016, 16:51 
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EDIT: Corrected and replaced 4/15/16. Provided in both the same Word and now pdf.

Hey, Anony: I thought I'd run both chapters together to see what happens.. Attached is a WORD doc draft. You need to first download Bibleworks fonts, here: http://www.bibleworks.com/fonts.html and then you can read and edit the text.

Version is Word 2002, so compatible backwards with Word97 if you still use that, and forward to all versions of Word, though you have to maybe use the special .reg fixes for old Word files you can fix or download from MSFT, here: https://www.google.com/search?q=Word+.r ... ust+center

Not saying my red-underlined ellisions/dipthongs are right. But instead of using a logical paragraph, I just parsed by clause where the line was too long, and by verse where it wasn't too long. Since the Lord or Matthew is mapping meter to reconcile pre-Church 1050 to post-Church 1050, there's a 63 piece at the end, which keeps on running through. But the Church 1050 clearly started also in 30 AD rather than the pre-Church 1050 which would be hit 63 years later (counting from 31 AD).

This means the logical paragraphs per the text, overlap, i.e., the parable of the fig tree line in Matt24:32, starts at syllable 1037 in the text. Cute, since Church time overlays Israel's time, and even 1000 years later, that shouldn't be forgotten. Also, the year is 1067ff, which is the time Israel was yet overrun again, by competing Moslems (Byzantium in 1071, Jerusalem in 1073).

The text includes the variants, and there are rather more than I knew. So the text may slightly differ from what you had. Most variants I eliminated, because a) they weren't in Sinaiticus but Vaticanus or neither, and b) they were grammatically redundant. The variant shows with a strikeover.


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PostPosted: 14 Apr 2016, 20:41 
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Lol, I see you elided 'ouai'.

I'm not comfortable with some of those dipthongs. For example, euangelion I count as 5 syllables. You must be pronouncing it 'euangel-yon', but in order to get that you have to treat it as two separate word. If you say it fast as one word, the 'i' stands separate from the 'o'.

Same goes for 'mia'. I count two syllables.

Then there's ἐκεῖ-ἔσται. If this is a legitimate ellision, then so could be 'kai-ek'.

I don't think Nwe is one syllables, and I'm not sure of how I feel about 'ews' yet either. Maybe if they were spelled with an O-micron or upsilon, it might be different, but in my opinion, O-MEGA is too long of a vowel to be ellided in that manor.

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PostPosted: 14 Apr 2016, 22:27 
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Well, ekei estai is not the same as kai-ek-whatever. The latter produces a ka-ye sound. But just ignore what I ellided or treated as dipthong. Do the meter first WITH NO ellision or dipthongs, see what happens. The clause separation will show you where the ellisions go, and frankly the benchmarks will become obvious.

I think the key to the ellision is the benchmarks. Nwe and mia might be two syllables after all, but remember Hebraisms will abound, so Yesous not I-E-sous. Question is, where they are: is it himat-yon, euangel-yon, since Jews read the text?

Solution: I suspect there is a 'theme' to the sevened benchmarks, where the lines which seven separately serialise a precis of THE LORD SAYS as the theme. That first 49 tipped me off to it.

I'm going to redo the meter as if all i+vowel constructions were y+vowel, see what happens. I didn't do that uniformly, but maybe I should. It would still mean ekei+estai is 3 syllables, but a kai-estai (not a real phrase) would be three also.

Film at 11. Well, later than that, this will take time.


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PostPosted: 14 Apr 2016, 23:06 
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Yeah, I would expect Hebraism to carry over into the NT meter. At this point, the only thing I know to do is to try comparing some variation of the new ellision assumptions vs my older model. I have seen instances where historical bench marks have corrected some of my ellisions, so I'll just have to go by the bench marks.

I do see how the new ellision you posited create a more attractive pattern, but I don't know that the subsevening is that prevalent in this meter. If Church is failing, then wouldn't the meter lack subsevening? Same for Israel in the first 84...Israel failed, so maybe no subsevening.

I don't want to jump to any conlusions, so I'll start a timeline from verse. We should start seeing results immediately.

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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2016, 00:27 
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I should clarify: the sevening at the historical benchmarks like dateline, 490, 560, 1050 plus the leading 63, will all have a serial 'theme' where you link the words together for each benchmark and they make a LORD SAYS precis. The subsevening that results 'below' that, yes -- very little after some initial explosion of growth -- means little positive volition. But you'll notice, that near the ends of the 1050's, there are a series of sevens. Each time. So there is a pattern. However, the pattern changes depending on our ellision assumptions, so I want to figure out WHAT those assumptions should be. So I'm picking 'classes' of assumptions, like dipthongs (which technically aren't ellisions) and cases where a word ends with the same vowel as the next word starts. See what happens.

What you decide to do may be different. It's all painstaking, since there is no computer program we can write to just change the meter for us, but it still helps to see whether we can find the BIBLE's formatting, however long it takes.


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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2016, 05:25 
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I noticed you had this in verse Matt 24:40, τότε δύο ἔσονται.

Nestle GNT 1904, which is what's available to me has the words in a different order: τότε ἔσονται δύο. Which one do you think is accurate?

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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2016, 05:52 
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Well, it doesn't matter for syllable counts. Use what you think best. BTW, I just search-checked Matthew, and he abbreviates dia to di when the next word begins with a, so dia is always two syllables.

Matthew uses the i as a yod, often. So I'm testing which times he DOESN'T do that. See Matt1 for how he Hebraizes the i, here: http://www.brainout.net/MatthewMeterR.pdf .


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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2016, 05:53 
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Καὶ ἐξελθὼν ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἀπὸ τοῦ ἱεροῦ

If we elide as shown above, there are 11 syllables.

30 AD + 11= 41 AD--Caligula dies, and the Jews are spared from persecution for not worshiping Caligula's statue. So Caligula's planned abomination exits the Temple. He died before the statue could be build from what I can tell.

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Last edited by Anonynomenon on 15 Apr 2016, 06:01, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2016, 05:57 
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Again, kai-exz would be ka-yexz, so you don't shorten the syllable count. Paul's Eulogetos ho Theos matches Matt 24:1 then exactly and wittily: Jesus left the building to Heaven, praise God Who He also is (Theos hits Yesous spot on).


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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2016, 06:26 
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So what do you think those 12 syllables would be tagging. I see what you mean, and Matts eporweto lines up with Paul's kuriou heimwn, but there also has to be relevant historical tagging.

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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2016, 07:03 
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Looks like the 49th syllable (εἶπεν αὐτοῖς) Matt 24 could by tagging Vespian's death in 79 AD. His last words where, "I think I'm turning into a god."

Did Paul tag Vespian?

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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2016, 07:56 
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I don't think the first 12 syllables are a dateline, but it helps to see Paul's text line up.

Yes, Paul did mark Vespasian, at 'katen' of 'katenopian autou', since after all, Vespasian died an unbeliever, NOT QUITE BEFORE GOD after he died. Paul tagged all the Roman emperors so deftly, each ETA in thelematos anaphora (three times) marks the death of one of them (Trajan, Macrinus, Diocletian). Get the pun? The WILL of the dying Emperor is undone by the successor (and it's true, Hadrian gave back all Trajan gained, the Severan mothers undid all of Macrinus' brief reign, Constantine reversed Diocletian by aping him).

BTW, in Matthew, ouai is really two syllables, but himation is only three. o-wai, and himat-yon. Doesn't alter the sevening.


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