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Outer Darkness and Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth - FrankForum (Frankness IS Forum)

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PostPosted: 08 Oct 2015, 07:11 
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Thank you so much for writing this. The subject has been on my mind for the past few days now. My apologies for throwing your last thread off topic. These doctrines are so interconnected that its hard to stay focused on one single subject.

I've come to agree with you and Brainout, the outer darkness has to be reserved for lazy believers who didn't invest their talents.

One question I have is Jesus said on a few occasions, 'they will be thrown into outer darkness, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth'.

Does that mean, "OVER THERE, is a place for weeping and gnashing of teeth"?

Or is that to say that weeping and gnashing of teeth will come about after discovering their loss?

I would assume that weeping and gnashing of teeth is just the initial shock, and that those believers would have to get over it. I mean to live in bitterness is sin, and there isn't supposed to be sin after resurrection. The same goes for jealousy.

I'm thinking for the outer darkness dwellers of heaven, there will be temporary weeping and gnashing of teeth, but then life will go on in the outer darkness.

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PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 07:17 
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Anonynomemon, you don't have to worry about 'offtopic', for the very reason you cited, intertwinedness (neologism). No mods here to monitor that, and I refuse. It's your guys' forum just as much as mine.

As for your questions, I can't speak for hupostasis' answer, but mine is (so far, will likely change) that 'outer darkness' is not literal for the believer, ever. It's a metaphor for missed soul illumination. So that everyone's happy, no one's bitter, though there is wailing at the JSC temporarily. But the ending result is that some are far away from Him, and in that sense it ties to 'outer darkness', kinda like living on Pluto rather than earth where the New Jerusalem will be*. That's the closest to literal 'outer darkness' as maybe it gets, physical distance. For the promise is that ALL will know Him, Jeremiah 31:31-34, explained further re Church's role in Heb 8:8-12 through 10:15-17 (reversing the order of mind and heart).
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*Well, all of the eternal universe is new, not just Earth and Jerusalem, Rev21-22.


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PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 17:59 
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In Matt 25:30 " there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth".

The Greek looks like this:
ὁ κλαυθμὸς καὶ ὁ βρυγμὸς τῶν ὀδόντων.

The nomination masculine singular article "ὁ" is used to focus on the "the outer darkness". Does this indicate that the outer darkness is a place reserved specifically for weep/gnashing? If so, that implies that a level of shame will continuously haunt these believers, rather than it being limited to an initial shock.

To be honest this is a bit unsettling. I don't see how this could be taken too literally since it is a parable, but at the same time, it seems that the parable was designed to shock those who read it.

PS my Greek isn't too good, so I'm hoping someone here knows it better than I do.

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Anonynomemon, Your Greek is just fine. I was thinking of that very problem when writing to you. So that's why I don't think the analogy for the believer is an exact parallel. That's why I commented using Pluto.

This isn't a proper answer to your question, but rather an endorsement of it. There are many issues to resolve. Seems like hupostasis did well to organize the listing of the biggest issues, and did well in organizing the approach for resolution, at least an initial approach. Will be interesting to see what you and he come up with, what others come up with, and if I can contribute, I will.

Frankly this is really key to so many other doctrines, it's worth the time. For centuries, Christianity has been puerile, restricting everything to saved/unsaved, but Bible never does that. There are tandem issues and should be, ONCE saved. For surely if one goes to hell for never believing, shouldn't there be an analogous loss for never growing up?

So then how do we define that, and where is the Scripture to support it, what are the rhetorical styles it uses to explain the relevant parallels, doctrines, etc?


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PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 19:23 
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I'm thinking that this same principle should exist in OT as well. I mean is Bema exclusively for the Church? Even if it was, Israel was supposed to be Bride, so the OT should have some material on this too.

It seems like Jesus used the terms outer darkness and weeping/gnashing as technical terms, as if the reader was expected to know exactly how to interpret the relevant parables. I'm sure something will turn up when God is ready.

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The OT provisions were discussed differently: Luke 19's version of the talents is an OT parable, idea of cities (so the parable was told more than once, varying it for the audience).

And, we gotta distinguish between Millennial rewards/promises/conditions versus eternal.

The many called few chosen verse has always been taken to mean unsaved (called) versus saved (chosen). Idea really that God chooses everyone be saved, but since only a few believe, then God's 'chosen' decree applies only to those who believe. This gets the Calvies in all kinds of trouble, but they don't understand Election. We are ALL elected in Christ. Whether we believe in Him or not, is our CONSENT, and if it doesn't exist, then the WILL is not executed (Hebrews 9). For the Death occurred, but the beneficiaries of the Will might not consent. That was law then, is still law today.

Okay, but now let's ask what kind of call is perhaps in view? Aren't we getting a new call to grow up with reference to our salvation? And if we say no to that, then our souls aren't saved by growing up, but juridically we still go to heaven? Isn't that too what James means? For he's talking about growing up and the implanted (so not unbeliever) Word to save the SOUL, not merely the juridics of residence post death. For doesn't my soul need saving from worldly thinking, even after my being is going to heaven?

So: Matthew 20 might be a believer explanation as hupostasis says, given the entire context. It's been traditionally taught as if Jewish upset over Church on the grounds that Jews came first, and Church is last. But maybe that's lame and even anti-semitic. Since it's a parable to the Kingdom of Heaven, its audience is not unbelievers.

Then there's the issue of James 2, which is also not about salvation, using the same analogy of idle day laborers, often mistranslated faith without works is dead, in James 2:20. But the Greek there is argos, not nekros, and is in parallel with nekros, in 2:17. So doesn't mean physically dead. So is James talking back to Matthew 20? He could be.

Notice how I'm not providing answers, just comments.


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hupostasis, you gotta get rid of thinking that the many called, few chosen is part of the passages in Matt 20 and Luke 14. The extra texts don't belong there. Not damaged, but just text put out of place. I don't know exactly how the error occurred, and since we can't see the mss facsimiles, we can't tell. But the text does not belong there, so you can't build your ideas on text not in the verse.

And since office precedes, then you have to make some kind of analogy chain. The saved person who doesn't mature still is saved, 'inherits' that much. But is inherited as part of the kings' portions, Isaiah 53:12's wa yahalleq shalal. So whatever would have been the stingy servant's 'portion' (metron) goes to the king on his behalf as shalal (booty, Hebrew equiv of metron).

So how does all that get reflected in the outer darkness and gnashing analogies? Gotta be a way to find the other elements of the analogy chain in Scripture...


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Wow, alot of good brain food here.

I agree with Hupostasis here but why are the first (aborted) to be paid last and the last (kings) to be paid first?

I think its as simple as a righteous king putting the needs of the people before his own. As a result, the king recieves a level of honor and respect that the peasants do not obtain. Thats what Christ did. He made Himself last as King of Kings so that our need for regeneration could be put first, but Christ is glorified first, and the Church will recieve her payment last.

Most likely, the verses in question have had text added, but the best way to tell is to see if the text is metered, right? I mean they would theoretically stick out like a sore thumb.

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Well, Anonynomemon, yeah maybe the text is metered, but here it's clear the phrases don't belong. I haven't had time to go through the meters. So far have only done each Chapter 1 of the NT, Genesis 1, Daniel 9, Psalm 90, Isaiah 53, and Magnificat (well, also Heb 11:1, but that was a no-brainer).

Last first is usually taken to mean Church as a whole, since the Church covenant is way higher than Israel's ever was. That's what Book of Hebrews is about. That last first might have other meanings too, well -- that also makes sense.

The underlying doctrine of last first goes back to Isaiah 54 and 55. The One they deemed lowest/last becomes the Cornerstone, and that's why Church grounded in the Age of the Gentiles, is also higher. He was rejected, so He orders Church and pays for her in advance, so Father decides her construction, and in the end she rules as Bride since Vashti wouldn't come.

None of that invalidates what you said. So to answer why, well: the poor we will have with us always, so someone's got to have the funds, and the kings get it, Isaiah 53:12, wa-et atsumim (the kings) ya halleq shalal: and to the mighty, He (Christ) shares out the people-booty. Greek LXX uses metron for shalal, which Paul uses for Bible Doctrine in Romans 12:1-3 and Eph 4:16, very clever. He's our booty too.


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@ Hupostasis

Yeah, I knew that all works would be Judged, but for some reason I never put 2 and 2 together. The Bema seat and the White Throne Judgement are both judgements of our works. Makes sense now, and the "ministers flame of fire" statement does support that.

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@ Brainout

Wow, that's all very sobering, and a lot to think about.

Since the outer darkness and weeping/gnashing thing is paralleled to hell, how far does that parallel extend?

For believers, weeping/gnashing is peasantry. For non-believers, its Lake of Fire...

But, assuming there is no deadline on salvation, could a peasant theoretically learn their way out of the outer darkness and into the Light? Rewards would have already been distributed, so they would be living in the Light, but not as a king.

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Yeah, d'accord. Which still leaves the question of a Jewish Bema: seems that would have still been 2nd Advent. It's just now later than scheduled...


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Yes. Second Advent would most definitely be Jewish Bema. But, as you have repeatedly stated; in OT, gentile believers were naturalized into Israel's covenant, so wouldn't Jewish Bema include gentiles too? Yet Revelation makes distinction between Israel and the Great Multitude.

Furthermore, pre-Israel gentiles are resurrected with the DRY BONES too, so is it JEWISH BEMA or PRE-CHRIST BEMA?

Pre-Christ makes more sense to me, but that's my initial, 'knee jerk' reaction...so to speak.

Still, this doesn't tell us exactly what the outer darkness is, where it is, how long it lasts, or if its anything more than an exaggeration.

However, I'm still willing to bet my bottom Federal Reserve Note that the answer to Outer Darkness and Weeping/Gnashing is waiting for us in OT.

Aside from Church, when have Jesus' words not reflected OT? How else would His audience have known what He was refering to?

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PostPosted: 22 Oct 2015, 03:36 
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Oh, yeah. All who believe in Him during Trib and Mill become 'Jews' no matter what they are prior. Same as during Church, all who believe in Him become 'Church', and all who believed in Him during the age of the patriarchs were 'Jews' no matter what they were prior. Now before the patriarchs, there were only Gentiles, so weren't called anything special, except whether they believed in Him or not.

So yeah, pre-Israel gentiles resurrected too, gentiles in OT in general who believed resurrected, OT believers would be their moniker en toto

And yeppers, I'll agree that our Outer Darkness answer is in the OT. But where? Guess we'd have to do a Word search on skotos.

EDIT: look at Luke 17:24ff, ties to Zech 14. I'm sure somewhere in there and in Eze37 et seq are what we're looking for, but I still don't know what rhetorical style to expect. I am sure the Greek search terms will be quotes/snippets from the OT, which then might lead to others.

Am still trying to get the 'flow of Luke's arrangement of text from Luke 16-19. Overall he aligns the timing to the Magnificat, but I'm not sure how this content is aligned. It's tracking Matthew, but not in the same order (similar to how Luke 4 changes the order versus Matt 4, to use keywords to lead to his next point). I don't know why, yet.


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PostPosted: 23 Oct 2015, 05:59 
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@ Brainout

Compare Job 15:30 to John 15; about the useless branches being dried up and burned. Then compare Matt24:49-51 to Hannah's prayer. The more I look at it, I get the feeling that darkness is a gerneralized symbol for death (physical, spiritual, etc). For that reason, darkness could mean both Sheol or sin unto death. Notice in Matt 24:49-51, Jesus cuts the wicked servants to pieces.

So now I'm thinking, when Christ returns, the surviving believers who refused to grow will be killed (darkness/death/cut asunder), the surviving believers who produced fruit will be resurrected to inherit cities with the dry bones, and the believers who converted at the last minute enter into Millennium unresurrected. These are the ones who weep for the sudden realization that they pierced Messiah with their prior negative attitudes. The Millennium is their time to grow.

It seems resurrection is a prerequisite for kingship (Rev 20), and the Talent Parable is primarily for Tribulation believers.

Make sense?

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@ Brainout

Yes, I see what you mean. Hannah uses yehhathu which I guess should be translated 'taken down'. These English translations can be very misleading. I'll have to be more careful to check everything with the Hebrew and Greek next time.

I'm still looking for references of darkness in OT, but I'm also very interested in Eliphaz's statement about the branches being burned up.

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PostPosted: 24 Oct 2015, 05:11 
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So now we're back to proving that 'outer darkness' is dual-entendre.


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This may or may not be considered controversial, but here its is:

What if we define the basic Hebrew word for darkness "hhoshekh" by its Paleo-Hebrew pictographic value?

Hhet=Outside
Shin=Division
Khaf=Open

So the "hhoshekh" could be defined as 'the outside area that divides, in the open'.

I've used this method to define "hashamayim" as the 'divides\consumed waters'. I feel that this is consistent with the idea that the universe was flooded with water prior to it's restoration.

I used this chart as my reference:
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/alphabet_chart.gif

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Yeah, I like Jeff's site for its resources and to play around with some of his ideas, but I also like to let context mold the definition along with pictographic value. I don't think it works in every case, but the technique works especially well with prefixes, suffixes and dramatic root words.

Take Breshith for examples:
Beth=within
Rosh=the head/beginning
Thau=plural

So I read it as "within the beginning of all things".

I think ancient Hebrew was designed to be self explanatory or at least interactive.

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