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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2016, 16:25 
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Matts padding is 40+10+42+21+11=124

Jesus' words are 34+10+1302+70+147=1563, which is 54 short 1617.

Dont know if it means anything.

1617 would be 483 short of 2100. So 483+53.5?

3.5 embedded for Gents followed by 3.5 for Jacob?

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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2016, 03:14 
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Okay, lemme think over and talk to God about this. BTW, this is truly exciting stuff!


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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2016, 03:19 
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While you're thinking, did you ever figure out Adam's 130 years, does it relate to Jacob's age entering Egypt with family? It might be related to the ellipsis, but probably not.

I gotta work early tomorrow, so this'll probably be my last post for tonite. Can't wait for what ever comes to mind tomorrow.

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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2016, 03:46 
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Yeah, that 130 was on my mind this morning as I was falling asleep. Been on my mind since May 2004 (before I knew the meter), when I first started doing GeneYrs.xls .

I keep on wondering if God makes up that initial debit, but have been living with the ASSumption that it was a 490 initial loan, so that ANY time during it should someone supermature, the 'debt' of the 'time loan' would be considereed paid. But it keeps on showing up as an accounting item in the Bible datelines, so I wonder. I tried to balance it, here; search on '130'. There's a connection, but I'm not sure what it is. I failed so far, to find the answer.

One interesting thing in your numbers, is the Janus quality of the 53.5 on either side of the 1617. Is that a coincidence, or does it mean something? I don't know

Checking padding:
v.1 40
v.2 ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς 10 syllables . Sum so far is 50. Heh. But what if δὲ ἀ is one syllable? Then 49!

v.3 63, since what they say is not part of His Speech, to verify if He's metering as HE talks. (If yes, then Matthew's padding is deliberately metered around it as a kind of commentary on the text's meter, as well.)

v.4 καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς 12 syllables! But you properly did the krasis for καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς , in which case 74+49.

But that would mean what Christ actually said, is not metered.

Gonna go check the CNTTS apparatus for variants, in Bibleworks 9. Ok, in v.3 Codex Ephraemi (CatII Aland, 5th cent., only locus) has nine extra syllables in the padding, kanenanti tou ierou (sorry, I don't have Greek fonts on this machine) after twn elaiwn, and autou after mathetai.

Thing is, if 75+50, one extra would be pregnant 126. 9 means 134. Then krasis, so 133.

Even so, the net addition is 8 so entire chapter meter would be thrown off; of course, if only one CatII Aland mss has these words (true, Codex Ephraemi): then likely they weren't ever in the original text.

Which implies, there are more variants to test. One of the best uses and probably the pristine use of the meter was to verify proper text, since in ancient times they memorized (carrying around papyri was inconvenient).

I didn't test all the chapter for variants, but these were the only additions in verses 1-4. The rest don't change the meter (i.e., are only spelling changes or lacunae in lesser mss).

Go get rest.


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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2016, 04:13 
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K. Well the reason I bring up 130 is because I thought the 54 disqualified my 308 ellipsis theory until I saw Matthew's 124 padding; 124+54+130=308. I know that 54 is related to 57, therefore Noah in the Boat for 308, 315, then 365. Then you have Enoch who lived 365 years, and Adam dying when Enoch was 308.

Its connected, but I don't know why or how, or if it's even applicable in this case.

Jesus words in Matt 24 total to 44 syllables up to the point that He speaks completely uninterrupted for the duration of the Chapter. 44x7=308.

I also noticed that Jacob lived to be 147 years. All these things must have some connection to the meter...

k. that's it. good nite.

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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2016, 06:12 
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Okay, well my results differ from yours, so I can't add anything else at this time. I see where you're getting the 44, but don't see why you include the 63, since they aren't His Words, since we're testing to see if Matthew is wrapping text which the Lord originally spoke AS meter.

As for Jacob's age being 147 when he died, if that were a significant meter for that reason, then we should find text to support the claim. I don't see how one can just assume a 130 ellipsis since it's not sevened, and where else would it be used that way? Ellipsis tends to be repeated, as it has doctrinal meaning too.

Now if what you're saying is valid, then God will elaborate for you. Good night!


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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2016, 08:39 
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Okay, as previously posted, I found nine syllables of padding text in the Codex Ephraemi in CNTTS apparatus of Bibleworks9 which could maybe be added to Matt24. Problem is, it's the only witness, though technically doesn't exclude it: as shown in the Jude videos, meter is a great way to validate for textual criticism.

Bear in mind, that if you could actually SEE the originals here digitized, it might be obvious whether the text is in error. I'm using grammar and style litmii for inclusion/exclusion, and of course you might disagree.

UPSHOT: I see no reason to change the meter for the variants. Again, maybe you'll disagree.

Verse 5: same ms, adds hoti after legontes. Viable grammatically, but it's the only ms.
Verses 6-9, nothing (spelling changes, obvious dittography).
Verses 10-16, same.
Verse 17, possible post-positive de after ho, in Codex Bezae and ms 33 (latter is 9th century). I don't think the de belongs because v.17 elaborates, it's not a transition or a contrast with v.16.

Verses 18-19, nothing.
Verse 20, possible en fronting either or both cheimwnos and sabbatwi but most witnesses are for the latter, none Cat I or II and none early. Seems not part of Word, since Christ could be using Atticism here (omitting prep is an Atticism for drama, NT writers do it a lot).
Verses 21-28, nada.
Verse 29, possible ekeinen fronting thlipsin, but I doubt it. Locus is only mss 28. Including it, makes grammar seem wrong (negates uniqueness), and looks like dittography since ekeinwn occurs just after hemerwn.
Verse 30, nada.
Verse 31, unlikely tote after initial kai, only in Washingtonius (9th Cent Aland Cat 3). Kai is used in the same way, alone. Hebraism.
Verses 32-33, nada.
Verse 34, alleged de after amen, but I've never seen Him talk like that, nor is the phrase (with and without the period) found in the mss I have in Bibleworks. Several 9th cent witnesses add de, some Aland II.
Verse 35, nada.
Verse 36, alleged mou following pater in many late mss, all CatIII or worse. I really doubt it would be used, as Christ is counting his Deity ho huios ei me ho pater to show Both Divine.

Verse 38 is a doozy. Codex Aleph aka Sinaiticus, has kai fronting gamountes and that's a likely reading. It's not the UBS reading, which you seem to be using (Bibleworks' default reading is UBS with tweaks too). Depends on whether the Lord is playing on alliteration or slowing down for dramatic effect. The kai isn't required, but often would be used per item. They didn't use commas in real Greek. Commas were invented centuries later, are not part of the Autograph. Since verse 38 is 50 syllables (pregnant for Pentecost, when Noah leaves Das Boot) I very much doubt the extra kai is in there. On purpose.

Verses 39-44, nada.
Verse 45 has an extra ekeinov fronting hon but it's only in ms 28, 11th century, Aland II. Grammar doesn't work. A lot of later mss have autou or autou tou after kurios but in Bible usually that construction is used to imply the 'lord' isn't real, so doesn't fit this passage. (Koran slyly uses it a lot: 'his lord' rather than THE Lord.)

Verse 46 adds estin after makarios, but only in ms 124, 11th cent Austria text. Not the normal construction in His Speech, to add the verb, nor did search reveal any such phrase. It's more dramatic with verb in ellipsis.

Verses 47-51, nada.


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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2016, 16:53 
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brainout wrote:
Okay, well my results differ from yours, so I can't add anything else at this time. I see where you're getting the 44, but don't see why you include the 63, since they aren't His Words, since we're testing to see if Matthew is wrapping text which the Lord originally spoke AS meter.

As for Jacob's age being 147 when he died, if that were a significant meter for that reason, then we should find text to support the claim. I don't see how one can just assume a 130 ellipsis since it's not sevened, and where else would it be used that way? Ellipsis tends to be repeated, as it has doctrinal meaning too.

Now if what you're saying is valid, then God will elaborate for you. Good night!


Unless I made a mistake (which is possible, cuz I have a hard time with numbers) I included the 63=42+21 with Matthew's words, not Jesus. All together, Matthew speaks 124 syllables.

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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2016, 17:04 
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Okay, well make the case that way, if you think it's better. I was trying to remove all but Jesus' words to see if HE was deliberately metering as He talked. So the difference would be a doctrinal meter statement by Matthew the HS would add as a commentary on the text. But you do it your way, and btw -- the numbers drive me nuts too. I always (literally) collapse when doing meter counting/sleuthing, over and over again.


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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2016, 22:24 
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brainout wrote:
Okay, well make the case that way, if you think it's better. I was trying to remove all but Jesus' words to see if HE was deliberately metering as He talked. So the difference would be a doctrinal meter statement by Matthew the HS would add as a commentary on the text. But you do it your way, and btw -- the numbers drive me nuts too. I always (literally) collapse when doing meter counting/sleuthing, over and over again.


But that's my point. Jesus doesn't speak at all in verse 3, its all Matthew quoting the Disciples im 42+21 syllables. Jesus speaks in part of verse 2 and from verse 4 to the end of the chapter.

If you want to test metering in Jesus' words, you need to remove ALL of Matthew including what the disciples spoke.

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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2016, 04:54 
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Okay, went back and reread. I see your point, didn't seem to be the same meaning when I first read it, but you're right and I was too tired. I apologize!

Okay, so where does this padding removal leave us? With an unmetered 'Jesus said' text as a whole, but clearly metered in part. So after Christ dies 2 months later, when Matthew writes, he adds enough syllables to seven the whole.

I see where the 40 comes from, Christ's starting point in v.2 clearly included the 40, so v.1 adds that 40. So 124-40= (drum roll please) 84, clever. Yet more proof we have the right original Bible text, for those nutters who claim that this meter thingy is something goofball like Bible codes. Nope, it'a VETTING, ACCOUNTING meter for testing text memorization, retention, comprehension. Whew.

Pregnantly, 124/2 is 62, as in 62 weeks. Which, is the very week in which Christ talks, dying at its beginning rather than its Daniel 9:26 end.

So your query about the difference, 1687-124, 1563, not sevened, but TREBLED (521 threes). Romans 8:28 presaged, Daniel 9:24 illustrated, God makes good on the Promise. Heh.

I see that kind of metering a lot in the NT. Probably is frequent in the OT as well: take a trebling factor, add something neither sevened nor trebled, and the sum becomes a sevened number.

OK, but under the Holy Spirit Matthew does add 124, making 1687 total, with 1470 from original Exodus to Christ's death on what should have been Passover, 490x3, proof of Divine Fulfillment of the Exo12 promise. Plus, 217, same number of syllables as the Magnificat, which everyone then knew but wasn't put in a Gospel until Luke, nearly 30 years later (haha on that differential, since Jesus was 'about 30' end Luke 3).

So the big 'paragraphs' are 1470 and 217. Meaning what, when conjoined?

I played with adding another 217 and got 1904. Add 14 if instead you treat Daniel 9:24-27 meter as the ellipsis, though the Matt 24 text doesn't go to the end of Trib, but only its start, so maybe another 7. Or, another 40.

If an Exodus Theme for Church is intended as a parallel, then 1470, or plus all or any of those other meters above, means what?

More questions than answers.

EDIT!!!! I was just about to fall asleep (collapsing from this, as usual), when it hit me to SUBTRACT the 44 from the 1563: result? 1519, which is .. 217 SEVENS! Aka, 490x3 plus.. 49! Diaspora, the initial gap period=TempleDown time, reserved for the goyim had there been no Church!

Moreover, 1519-217 = 1302 = 186 sevens, and 182 = 62 x 3, parallel to the 490 x 3, stressing the Groundhog Day nature of Church as in 62nd week (really 69th, but the 62 is after the 49 in Daniel 9:26). No wonder Paul plays on 434, which is 217x2, BRIDGE.


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2016, 05:39 
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It's ok. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page (data wise).

Well, remember:

44+1302+70+147=1563 is short 483+54 of 2100, so yeah its got 62nd week written all over it, but if we remove the 147:

44+1302+70=1416. That is 54 years short of 1470. I don't know if that is important. Then of course, 70+54=124.

So does this mean an ellipsis of 54, or 124, or perhaps 124+54=178??? Does the 70+54=124 indicate the location of ellipsis??

edit:

ok, so why subtract the 44? And what's the meaning of 217x7?

If the 44 is a 'stand-alone', its not sevend, so is it 44x7=308. If we add 308+1302+70+147=1827?...which is 273 short of 2100. You remember my observations about 273 in Deut 3:50 right? 273x5=1365.

Anyways, I'm just playing with numbers here and shooting in the dark. Not very effective. However, its interesting how 308 never really leaves the picture, and I haven't seen 273 in a while.

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Last edited by Anonynomenon on 06 Mar 2016, 07:14, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2016, 06:41 
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I just edited my last post. See highlight and then edit yours. I'm going to go faint now.


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2016, 11:17 
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One big meaning which has to be in the text+meter, has to be about Temple accounting.

But I'm baffled. Here's what I know, and you will remember: Temple dedicated 950BC, 1Kings 9, supposed to be at 1044th year (age 1043) by 4200 YoW when Mill was supposed to begin. There's your 44.

Christ actually dies in the 980th year of the Temple, ignoring that it was razed. The 49 is obviously downtime and the origin of the Gentile Time insertion played on in Dan9:26, but the 49 in its meter, belonged to Israel, so another 49 might be in ellipsis, in the meter here.

He was supposed to be born 3 years later (4106) and the Temple should have been dedicated 7 years earlier, hence the 10-year spread, with Him dying 2090 from Abraham's maturation. So 50 becomes 40. So too, the 54 you're trying to adjust, because 14 is left owed and unpaid, so only 40 remains.

Had He died on time 7 years later, it would have been 987th year of the Temple, but since it got started 7 years late, a) the lateness is cancelled out by His Early Death, and had it been dedicated in 3150, His Actual Death still occurs in what would have been the original 987th year.

Notice that 14 keeps cropping up. Which reminds us of the original timeline of Jacob.

How all that rebalancing gets resolved in the meter here, versus Church now being inserted as the 49 of history, I'm not sure. Maybe the imbalance, is the point.


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2016, 02:11 
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Wow, ok, so I need to work these numbers out here so I can come back to this post as a reference.

1a.) Abraham matured 54 years prior to 2100 YoW; 2100-54=2046 YoW.

1b.) Therefore Jesus was supposed to die 2100 years after Abraham's maturation, had Jesus been born 3 years later in 4106 YoW: 2046+2100=4146 YoW.

1c.) But of course, that didn't happen. Jesus was born 3 years early in 4103 YoW, and died 7 years early: 4143-7=4136 YoW (Beginning the 62nd week rather than ending it).

2a.) Temple was dedicated (on Yowm Teruah) 490 years after Exodus: 2666+490=3156 YoW

2b.) But Temple was supposed to be dedicated 7 years earlier: 3156-7=3149 YoW, which would have started the 3150th year after Adam's Fall:1050+1050+1050=3150 YoW.


I get it now. If Temple had been dedicated on time in 3150 YoW, it would've had 1,050 years to fill until Millennium in 4200 YoW. But since it was dedicated late, in 3156 YoW, it had 1,044 years to fill.

So was Jesus saying in His meter, that because of His early death, the Temple would not stand until Millennium (therefore falling in 70 AD)??? If the Jews had let Christ live to age 40, would they have remained Client Nation???

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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2016, 04:53 
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Well, START of Year 3150 compared to END of year 3156, is 7.

Yeah, I think so. I'm still shaky in my understanding. It's been bugging me since 2004 when I first did GeneYrs.xls, why the Temple Chronology is so strange. I tried to map the Time Distances here: http://www.brainout.net/Ephesians1REPAR ... meDistance

That's the same as the Eph1DecreeSyllablesREPARSED.pdf and Ephesians1REPARSED.doc , but like the doc the htm's Greek fonts won't show rightly, unless you have Bibleworks.

Note the Temple Columns and rows. The only 490 balance is at Christ's Death. In the pdf or doc, if you page up one (p.134), you see another set of timeline comparisons, where I was trying to find if ANY other point-to-point measure balances to Temple. Ironically, that 105 meter might stand for 4207 = 1050th anniverary of the actual Temple, occurs that year (again, depends on fiscal used).

4207 is also 2100 from Jacob's birth.


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2016, 05:47 
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I noticed that the Exodus balances to both Temple dedication and Christ's death. Christ died 1470 years after Exodus, 980 years after Temple dedication then 616 yeas after the first Temple fall. And of course Temple was first dedicated 490 after Exodus.

I wonder why Jesus was born on Chanukah rather than Yowm Teruah after the first Temple, since His death balances to both the dedication and fall of the first Temple? Maybe the mystery of the Church Age is in the two dedications. The Church is being fitted together as a Temple, and Christ is the Temple incarnate...

edit

Fixed it, thanks.

And the Temple fell 854 years after Exodus. So, 616, 980, 490,854, and 1470 are all multiples of 7.

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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2016, 05:51 
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No, Christ died 980 years after Temple dedication, 950BC to 30AD. You might want to redo your post before I reply further.

EDIT: Oh and one more thing that hit me when I was readying for bed (lol that always happens): 2666 Exodus might be considered 2667 fiscal, because 3150-2667=483!

Exodus was 1440BC as you know, and lasted a year prior (plagues ran from Aviv to Aviv); but in the timeline due to the Varro error, is 1437 from Christ's Birth. Due to the Varro error one can't simply ramp up the AD by 3 years, as many scholars do, for the timelines we use don't then gel. But notice that here you have to pretend 33AD; for relative in BIBLE, it would be for this usage.

All this matters, in Matt24. The meter from the first 84 (including Matt's padding) through the 28 in v.10 adds up to 350, same as the syllables=years in Time Track II (Judges) of Psalm 90. But Moses wrote that in his 119th year, a year before he died, about 1400BC.

40+44 (1st 84) +42+21+21+70+44+40 (bookended 84) +28 =350. First 40 is Moses' term from Exodus until death; but it seems to be a kind of parenthesis. Then Joshua then (somehow) the Judges and Samuel.

After the 28 there are two 105's, implying maybe that the 7-year lateness either begins or is perpetuated there. Or that it becomes 14 there for the 7-year civil war then seven extra years David lives which scholars always overlook (last 7 chapters of 1Chron and time texts in 1Kings 1:1 through 6:1).

That 28 takes you to what we call 1050 BC, when Saul crowned, then another 40, then David and then Solomon for a combined 80, then kings through the end of Ahaziah. Notice how David's reign is divided in the middle, as 40+40=80, so 25 more of David's 40 completes the 1st 105. Why, I don't know. Maybe that's when David got Jerusalem? Some other event, like when he finally stopped fighting?

Total is then 210 years, which would take us to 840BC, end of Ahaziah the last valid king until Joash circa 835 (2Kings 11:2, which explains why not all generations are in the Matt 1 total).

So now the total becomes 560. Looks like a juridical 490 usage. I've seen this kind of thing before but until we have enough meter parsings, I can't be sure this 'juridical' label is apt. Explicit juridical 490 usage is in Acts 13:16-22 and the Lord's seventy times seven re forgiveness, in Matt18:22, so to posit He's also accounting a juridical 490 here, makes a great deal of sense. The whole 70 year timing for Temple Down is keyed to the 70-year historical voting period, so in a sense maybe there is always a sub70 when a major lapse occurs, as it surely was when Athaliah took over after Ahaziah.

For David's crowned at Hebron 3096, then over all Israel 3103, 3(.5? At what we now call Chanukah?) years late. That's a clear demonstration of the personal 490's overrunning the historical, for Moses/Exodus 490 doesn't end until 3156.

Now it gets even more interesting. Next in the Matt24:19-31 meter is 476, which is 119+168+189, no subsevening within each of those 'paragraphs'. Implication that any spiritual growth, was rare. Timeline takes you to what we call 364 BC, rise of Philip II of Macedon, the bronze in Daniel's vision of the Man of Time. (Again, rounding for fiscals, also since what we call 841 had ended, and our ruling dates for Judah and Israel are still approximate.)
.
After that, 434, which is Matt 24:32-44, subsevened as 14+112=126+308. So the 14 years between 364-52BC (v.32, 352 was end of 3rd Sacred War which caused Philip to consolidate his power) -- are maybe depicted as troubled but productive (lol learn the parable of the fig tree, which of course means Israel).

Thing is, 364-434 is 70 AD, Temple Down.

If we instead back up the timeline to count Matt 24:1, the 210 breaks instead at 880AD, benchmarking the first 30 years of Asa (whereas Daniel split 11-30 on Asa, in Daniel 9:7-8). Second (476=Dan 9:14 and Matt1's 2nd dateline) break becomes 404 when Darius II dies, then Artaxerxes II comes to power, and 3rd (434=Dan9:13) is of course 30AD.

Total either way is the 1470 = 490x3.

If instead or in addition we call this a forward timeline as you suspect, then the first 560 is a no-brainer, lining up on GeneYrs.xls, with the voting period falling from 520-590. The next 476 years takes us to the Norman Conquest, 1066. Why? Doctrinal meaning of the meter is Dan9:14 (cum), which was the close of his indictment of Israel, she's short because apostate. We have to assume a Daniel 9 theme, since Church is Groundhog Day, and clearly the meter is keyed TO Daniel, even as the text. (Idea of Church Exodus due to apostasy but only a few were faithful, akin to Israel's story, only Moses, Numbers 14:11ff.)

Then the next 434 (Daniel 9:13 cum) takes us to 1500 AD, which is almost 50 years after Gutenberg, 17 years before Luther's theses (regarded as the kickoff for the Reformation), and 70 years before the next historical 70-year voting period begins. Parallel to the 140 for Israel? 1st Temple went down 586BC, 140 years before the next historical voting period was due to begin.

Seems odd. If we go 217 more after that, we get to 1717. If intended, the year would have to benchmark something about Bible or Church. I'm not finding anything, but that doesn't mean there is nothing. It would have to be significant, to be the ending benchmark.

And I don't see why the Norman Conquest would matter, either. Except, LOL William was likely crowned on Chanukah (which we call Christmas, ever since Pope Gregory cut 10 days from the calendar, making December 15 Saturnalia into December 25). However, it did disrupt the ecclesiastical setup there, search on 'cultural development' here.

Going by this article, seems like William the Conqueror was intent on becoming another Constantine: that would make the benchmark significant, and then if so, Paul's tracing of the rise of Constantine using the meter in Eph1:3-14, would be elaborative.

I just posted the link to the whole timeline as a frankforum thread, here.

So the possibility is vettable. I still don't understand 1500 or 1717, but if we can vet 1066 (for the 520-590 is obvious), then we'd have more understanding of why and if, 1500 and 1717.

The whole theme has to fit together. Fortunately, all this stuff is self-auditing, if we keep plugging at it.


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2016, 03:22 
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Ok, So focusing on 520-590 AD; What if the Pope is in view? Pope Pelagius II was born in 520 AD and died in 590 AD. He was very legalistic, mandating celibacy for all clergy members...but his successor, Gregory I didn't even want the job. He appeared humble, and wanted to lead a quiet life of study in the monastery. He tried everything to avoid the office of Pontiff....that's pretty satirical, 'when you see the Abomination, flee...'.

He seemed like a humble man looking to escape the legalism of the Church. Maybe that's why he was placed in power. He relaxed the celibacy mandate made by Pelagius II, and sent missionaries to England.

I don't know, its just odd how the change in leadership happened right at the new 490.

Pope Gregory also defended the Jews from forced conversion. That is note worthy.

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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2016, 04:25 
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Okay, but the birth and death of one individual doesn't tie to the passage text. So it has to be an event which depicts the text, or a historical trend starting or ending at the benchmark which signifies the text. Paul and Daniel did timelines like you're positing, but they used TERMS OF OFFICE as benchmarks, not births and deaths of specific rulers. Daniel's was retrospective, Paul's was prospective, tying the TERMS of the Emperors (not their birth and death) to the CHANGES in Church fathers, to show Church causes history (just like Thieme said of Ephesians, but he didn't apparently know the meter).

That's the style. Question is, where did Paul get it? You could say, from Isaiah 53, for Isaiah does the same thing -- which Daniel builds from, validating what Isaiah said -- but I've not posted videos yet to show how the Isaiah text characterizes the reigns (well, except for a few starting here, badly done, not worth watching).

Point is, if Christ is doing an annual prophetic timeline, then Paul's style must be a 'reply' to it. So then Paul's style would reflect Christ's. So then if I know Paul's style, I should look for the same style to have STARTED with Christ. Matt24 would be the place for Him to do that.

So can we apply that style to the Matt24 text? So far, I don't see it. I only see broad TRENDS, not an annual timeline. But maybe you will see one.


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2016, 05:02 
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Well, the birth and death really isn't the focus, since the text does not break the 105 into 35+70. What would be the focus is the change in authority. Gregory may have been a Pope, and probably full of weird ideas, but he did defend the Jews from forced conversion.

Lets go back to 485 AD; The Acacian Schism from 485-519AD, which was a big argument over the Hypostatic Union of Christ. It didn't result in violence, but imprisonment of dissenters on the part of Easter Rome. It's got the same basic theme of the 133; many falling away, hatred between the two parties, false doctrines, many mislead...

You could also tie the Rise of Clovis in 486 AD to a Christian exodus from the Roman Catholic tyranny.



I don't see Paul's style being applied here, and I really would not expect to find it. However, I do see historical trends...the Development of the Church, or Fitting Together the Temple. Not only is Christ describing the growing pains of the Church, but He seems to be mapping out the duration of those phases.

Edit:

380 AD Edict of Thessalonica establishes Nicene Christianity as state Religion of Rome. Between 380-485 AD, schisms form.

First comes the Schism of 485 AD: Dispute over the Hypostatic Union of Christ. Many fall away, and hate builds up between the two parties, yet Rome wants the vain image of Unity (Ecumenism); so the West reunites with East (despite doctrinal differences) on what they deemed to be Easter, on March 24, 519 AD. So Easter of 519 AD is an Ecumenal Abomination....But in 590 AD Gregory I puts an end to forced conversion for a time, and allows more freedom.

In 486 AD, Clovis unifies the Franks, and his kingdom becomes a place of refuge for Christians who don't want the Roman Ecumenism. Fleeing the Abomination.

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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2016, 05:45 
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Well, the whole timeline has to run consistently like that, before you can say any part of it is apt. It all has to fit together thematically, be reflected in the text words, etc

Example: starting at verse 1, if a FORWARD timeline, then something significant re CHURCH or BIBLE or ISRAEL which THE TEXT covers, has to occur 84 years later (after 30 AD or 70 AD, depending on what you use as a starting year). Each sevened paragraph would be a historical benchmark, in the timeline, IF a FORWARD timeline. It works retrospectively, as I've posted before: a kind of cause de jure, juridical reason FOR the prophecy in the first place.

So it would have to work prospectively, if an annual forward timeline is intended, in the same way.

We know the 114 probably references the Jewish war, so that's a good start, since it's a dateline. Second dateline, the 42, probably references Temple Down, given the 4-year Varro error (Christ Age 73 then, given that His Age is often used in NT dateline meters, of which Mary's was the first).

But from there? 21 years later could be read as the (now-missed) originally-scheduled mid-Trib (His Age 94), keeps with the text, since it's about signs, and Abomination is a sign. Temple Down not rebuilt, but many wanting it to be rebuilt, petitioning Rome etc. was an abomination, too. That shows the deception he warns about in the 2nd 21 syllables, verse 4.

At that point, He'd be Age 115, our 112 AD, if I used a 30AD start keyed only on the 2nd Dateline (which I've never seen the meter do).

If instead I go back to the first 84, then 84 years after 30 AD, 114/115 Kitos war etc., by the 2nd 21 we'd be at 84+42+21+21+ 30 AD, = 198 AD. The interim benchmarks would have been

30+84 =114 Verse 1-2 Theme: Man admires his construction, God tears it down. (Trajan's massively expanding empire, completion of Canon under John, yet also expanding evil 'Christian' writers from Clement to mathetes), then

114+42=156 Verse 3a Theme: When will it be torn down (drooling over signs, missing the point)? (Hadrian and Antoninus 'Pius', SPQR cut way back, outers dismember, so too Christian antisemitism goofballs like 'Polycarp', 'Papias'), then

156+21= 177 Verse 3b Theme: what are the (drool drool here) signs? (Aurelius and then his son Commodus, who started coruling in 177; goofball apostate writing parallels are Justin Martyr, Hegesippus, Irenaeus), then

177+21= 198 Verse 4 Theme: don't be deceived i.e., don't drool over historical events, do what Jacob did and learn and live on Bible to grow the Family.. (Commodus and the civil war after that, then S. Severus in 195 but it took until 198 for him to finish off rivals (lastly Albinus); son Caracalla made co-ruler in 198. Parallel Church writers were roughly the same, but the big change here is the addition of Tertullian chief expositer of the pope idea, Origen who tried to convert the Severan MOTHERS (hahaha Paul uses musterion for them, Eph1:9), and some others).

And so on. This is the pattern of analysis we have, but that doesn't mean it's the only pattern in Bible, nor necessarily the pattern Christ uses here.

For Paul similarly benchmarked (as noted above in the parens): 114, 157, 175, 195

I did a short timeline of the Church fathers here, since although you can find church father stuff everywhere, a good listing of their relative dates is hard to find.

So where are the later events depicting the text at each of those junctures? General ties, yeah. But as an annual timeline using specific satirical keywords for each of those segments of future time? Paul's is quite biting. Christ's should be more so.

The below, is pretty biting.

114: Matt24:1-2, Man admires his construction, God tears it down.
    Everyone ADMIRED Trajan's expanding the Empire and those dippy Church writings, both expanded until they nearly bankrupted everyone -- Rome's treasury was nearly exhausted by the expense of Trajan's campaigning -- just as verse 1-2 text shows. Church was falling all over itself to be condemned (i.e., Ignatius with Trajan, Polycarp's trial). Ouch.

156: Verse 3a Theme: When will it be torn down (drooling over signs, missing the point)?
    From Hadrian's 117 accession onward, TEARING DOWN is what happened to the Roman Empire, the Jews, and Christians. WHEN they weren't tearing apart each other, that is. Hadrian wanted to tear down the whole Roman senate: Antoninus got the nickname 'Pius' because he talked mad Hadrian out of, executing the lot of them.

177: Verse 3b Theme: What are the signs?
    Oh, how about false peace? No cares until the Flood comes, name of Methu-Salah (when he dies, it happens). Time of Aurelius, but ohhh Commodus while a child, made co-regent. And in that peace, antisemitism and the apostate writers flourish with some of the goofiest dogma ever written, set up for the civil war with Irenaeus Against Heresies (anything disagreeing with his own heresy, of course).

198: Verse 4 Theme: Don't be deceived,
    but from Commodus on everyone is deceived, then civil war ensues with the Severans rising to power on Trump-like deceptions and donatives! In Christian writings, the same thing, with Origen fighting with everyone, Tertullian playing the bully, everyone fighting over the same voters, so to speak, vying for political ascendancy.
Yikes.

Next in the meter, is 70, Matt24:5-6, many will say 'I am He', don't be upset, just ignore them; wars and rumors of wars.
    70 years after 198, is 268 AD: Rome and Christianity are split into East and West, the moderate Gallienus is assassinated, everyone damns his fellow Christian over allegiance to Decius, aka Crisis of the Third Century, prominent in Paul's meter.

    It's basically the theme of his meter, how Church goes political and destroys itself, hence the Rapture (so no folding clothes dropping neatly out of the sky).

    Of most importance here, is that during the rolling unravelling, many Christians in Rome were crying it was the time for the 2nd Coming. So much so, Hippolytus made up a fake timeline to say Christ was not due, yet based on the Jewish 2000+2000+2000 garbled timeline.

    I had Google Doc links to the proper pages in Mosshammer but now can't find them; you can look inside the book, and the closest page to what I'm saying is p.28-29, but that's not all of it. I have the hardback, but I'll have to read through to find the right pages.

    Finally found a link (but not the right reference) to Mosshammer in Google Books: https://books.google.com/books?id=0umDq ... us&f=false . Callistus was connected with the reference, but I'll know the page when I see it, and I don't see it yet.

    You also can no longer find a searchable Bishops' Lists by Robert Lee Williams, which I also have in hardback. I got reprint permission for some of the pages I showed in the videos (starting here), but I didn't get permission for pages 168-170, which are on this topic. There is a newer edition for 2014, here. Mine is the 2005 edition.

    Essentially, the chiliasts in Rome were calling it a "New Prophecy" that Christ would return in Year 1000, and Hippolytus of Rome and Callistus were in civil war over that. Eventually the thing would cause the Severans and them to all be ousted. How much Alexander Severus (then emperor) was actually involved, who knows.

    Meanwhile, you can google on Hippolytus of Rome, '5500' and 'chiliasts' to see that to them, 'our' 217 AD was nearly Year 1000 of Rome. So they were indeed talking like Christ warns, here. Sample search is here.

Verses 7-9, 84 Syllables Theme: nation against nation, persecution against those of My Name, all the beginning of birth pangs.
    Yeah, exactly. Out from the civil war comes Diocletian, and the unending wars after that consolidate a Constantine who births what John calls Rev17 harlot politicized Church, right down to the same seven hills that Constantine has DUPLICATED in what became Constantinople. The murdering then goes on in Christ's Name over whether God is one or Three, all of Diocletian's Romanisms get imported to this day as the Roman Catholic Church, Jews are pogromised, the works.

    And it's just newly BORN, in 352BC when the 84 ends, with Constans dead and Constantius II his brother who warred against him over the definition of God(!), the last of the sons standing, finally both halves of the empire temporarily united again EXACTLY Rev17 harlot style.

    Paul's meter on it starts here; looks like he's playing back to these verses in Matt24. Paul breaks this period down precisely, with extreme biting sarcasm.

Matt 24:10, 28 syllables, 352-380 AD, many will be offended with and hate each other, is exactly the tenor of the time, for Political Christianity has taken over. So-called 'Theodosius the Great' takes over. Not good. Here in 2016, the same 'movement' is happening again (politicizing Christians back Trump and Cruz).

Verses 11-14, 105 syllables, 380-485 AD, the love of many will grow cold, multiplying of lawlessness, those staying in the doctrine will be delivered, (then summary statement) the Gospel will be everywhere preached, and then comes the end.
    Yeah, the end of the Roman Empire. Yeah, the multiplying of laws leads to the multiplying of lawlessness, as the Theodosian Code becomes YUGE and everyone persecutes everyone else to curry favor with the principate. To stay in the doctrine you have to leave the Roman Empire; which becomes much easier to do. when Odovacer takes it over in 476.

So yeah, maybe this is an annual timeline.

Yet the endpoint is odd: 1687 total syllables + 30 = 1717, meaning what with respect to either Bible, Temple, Israel, or some combo of the 3? Unless He's being funny, because on 31 March 1717 you have the Bangorian Controversy, kicked off by a speech to then King George. Click here for a better article on it. Frankly, the founding of the US is entirely about this, so it's not a small thing. Click here for a contemporaneous reflection on the importance of the controversy for the newly-forming, United States.

Funny the Lord would pick the year of the speech, if in fact He's doing that.

It's possible, for that's been the raging debate ever since, and now in this Presidential election we have the modern ANTI-CHRIST version of that in the Dominionists, of whom Ted Cruz is one, and Donald Trump is backed by the others (i.e., in Liberty U). Lots of reading on that, here.

The Endpoint has to be significant in a timeline. Paul's was the rise of Odovacer, the guy who took down the Western Empire, and the rise of Codified Political Church in the East (which becomes known as the Theodosian Code). It's like a movie where the ending is a beginning, for you know what follows: and Church lived unhappily ever after.

So Christ's endpoint has to be significant. The doctrinal meaning is clear, but as a timeline, not so much. At least, not to me right now.


By contrast, it looks more like you're stringing together unrelated stuff, as the text isn't supporting the events you're tagging.

So if you're on the right track, God will cause you to know. If not, same answer.


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2016, 06:31 
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ok. I think I'll just try to focus on something else tomorrow then. Maybe the retrospective timeline will help.

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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2016, 06:40 
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Okay, understood. This is an exhausting process. I edited my post again after you made yours, so maybe re-read it. Or not. Sleep well!

Oh: this might help you, a chronology of Roman Emperors with articles attached to each name., usually by Roman historians prominent in various universities, with short but useful bibliographies.

And as for the Abomination, it's 10 syllables into the verse, so would be 495, if the metering scheme is seminal to Paul's. Search on 'pope' when you load this. Wiki is sometimes squirrelly, but that entry can be vetted. Would be an abomination, alright. But you might find other entries which are better?

Kinda chilling, when you match to the meter.


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2016, 00:12 
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brainout wrote:

And as for the Abomination, it's 10 syllables into the verse, so would be 495, if the metering scheme is seminal to Paul's. Search on 'pope' when you load this. Wiki is sometimes squirrelly, but that entry can be vetted. Would be an abomination, alright. But you might find other entries which are better?

Kinda chilling, when you match to the meter.


Ok, so if the Popes new authority (495 AD) is an Abomination, then the Desolation caused by the Abomination would be evident 6 syllables/years later in 501 AD when Pope Symmachus I asserted that secular authority had no jurisdiction over him.

Edit:
Ok, I think I got it. The fist half of the 105 is the Theocratic Consolidation of Power, which facilitates the second half; Justinian's attempt to REVIVE Rome to its ancient glory. This attempt is foiled in part by an outbreak of bubonic plague. I'm working on the dates. Will post them later.

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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2016, 03:49 
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That's interesting! Again, whatever God gives you to come up with! You inspired me to play with it, but at the end of the day, it's your call.

I'm reasonably sure now that Paul's text is interlacing with Matt24, hence my long prior post. Really didn't expect that.


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2016, 06:34 
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Ok. So my timeline for vs 15-18 isn't complete yet. I started off with your idea of the Abomination of 495 AD at syllable 10, then Justinian caught my attention. So your observation might be correct, but I haven't worked it all out yet. this is what I have so far.

485 AD The Acaian Schism (Chalcedonian vs Miaphysitism) sets the stage for Papal Desolation.

syll 10--Abomination--495 AD Pope Gelasius I declares papal authority is raised above that of the Emperor.
syll 16--Desolation--501 AD Pope Symmachus declares that the secular authorities have no jurisdiction over the clergy.
syll 27--Spoken by Daniel--512 AD Emperor Anastasius I makes monophysitism (reason for the Acacian Schism in 485 AD) his official dogma. This causes riots and prompts Vitalian to revolt.
syll 29--Standing--514 AD Vitalian marches his soldiers to Constantinople and blockades the city.
syll 35--In the Holy Place--520 AD Vitalian becomes Consul and is murdered that same year; probably by future Emperor Justinian I who becomes consul in 521 AD.
syll 44--Let the reader understand--529 AD Codex Justinianus, the Dominionist legal code for Justinian's Revived Rome.
syll 52--Those in Judea--537 AD Byzantine forces take back the city of Rome for the first time since the Empire split and defend it against a siege.
syll 56--Flee--541 AD Outbreak of Bubonic Plague starts in Constantinople and spreads across Europe, hindering Justinian's ability to reunify Rome.
syll 60--To the mountains--545 AD Justinian sends Narses to Heruli to build an army for his campaign in Italy and Syria. This is a good time to leave Italy.
syll 72--Do not come down--557 AD An earthquake nearly levels the city of Constantinople. People leave their houses in a panic for the fear of collapse. The damage is so bad that Justinian mourns for 40 days.
syll 82--Take from the house--567 AD Justinian signs a treaty with Persia that requires him to pay 5,000 pounds of gold per year.
syll 90--The one in the field--573 AD Persia takes the city of Dara by from Byzantines, then crosses desert to attack Syria.
syll 98--Do not return--Justin I dies after abdicating the throne due to his spells of madness. He never returned to the throne before his death.
syll 105--Retrieve his coat--Persia and Byzantium return to peace, signing a Treaty, and Dara is returned to Byzantium.


This is the timeline for vs 45-46 and vs 47-51

Starting point is: 1570 AD Pope Pius V issues Papal Bull: "Reigning on High", excommunicating Queen Elizabeth I and her supporters, in an attempt to bring back Bloody Mary and Catholic Theocracy.

vs 45-46

syll 10--Faithful servant--1580 AD Pope Gregory 13th suspends Pius's Bull, stating that Catholic Church should obey Queen Elizabeth until the opportunity arises to overthrow her.
syll 14--And wise--1584/1582 AD Pope Gregory 13th implements his calendar and it is adopted by all Catholic nations. England is free from the Catholic church, and therefore does not accept the Gregorian calendar until later. Some how, 2 years appear to be cut out of history. Was this Gregory's goal?
syll 19--Has set--1587AD Elizabeth I signs death warrant for Bloody Mary's attempt to usurp the crown, Mary dies in the following year of uterine cancer.
syll 32--Over his house--1600 AD Ruthuen brothers die in a failed attempt to kidnap or murder King James VI.
syll 43--Feed in season--1611 AD First edition of King James Bible is published on May 2nd.
syll 50--Blessed servant--1618 AD King James proposes Five Articles of Perth.
syll 70--Found doing--1638 AD Scottish National Covenant is signed and declares Christ as authority over Church, rather than the King of England. This leads to the Bishops Wars, English Civil War, and Irish Civil War...all fought for freedom of faith.

vs 47-51
syll 6--Truly I tell you--1644 AD Oliver Cromwell proposes Self Denying Ordinance to separate Parliamentary members from Military due to conflict of interest. This Military Reform will determine the outcome of the English Civil War.
syll 17--In charge of possessions--1655 AD Cromwell divides England into 11 Districts under major-generals. Later this year, Anglican's are banned.
syll 19--Belonging to him--1657 AD Cromwell is offered the crown, but turns it down, preferring to remain the Protector of Lords.
syll 25--Will set him--1663 AD King Charles II signs multiple charters to the North American colonies, and passes the Second Navigation Act, requiring all goods going to colonies to be bought from England or resold by England. This leads to the Tea Parties and eventually the American Revolution.
syll 35--Evil servant says--1673 AD Test Act: Catholics and others who refuse State-Church sacrament cant vote, preach, hold office, teach, attend university or assemble in English meetings; Per King Charles II.
syll 45--Within his heart--1683 AD Conspiracy in heart of London (mostly pubs) to Charles II and take control of London is uncovered...Rye House Plot.
syll 53--Master delays--1691 AD After several requests to grant a charter to Plymouth Colony, King issues a charter which merges Plymouth with Massachusetts Bay.
syll 59--Begins to beat--1697 AD Thomas Aikenhead is the last person to be executed for blasphemy in Great Britain.
syll 63--Fellow servant--1701 AD Act of Settlement is passed, which excludes Catholic members of Stuart family from the Monarchy. On Sept 16th, exiled Stuart, King James II dies, prompting the Jacobites to follow James Francis Edward Stuart as their King.
syll 65--Of him--1703 AD King Louis of France supports Jacobite King, James II as "rightful" king of England in hopes of restoring him to power and pushing England out of the Grand Alliance.
syll 69--Eat moreover--1707 AD Union Act Ratified in Scotland on Jan 16th, and England on March 19th, to unify Scotland and England into one kingdom.
syll 79--With drunks--1717 AD Great Britain, France, and Dutch Republic sign Triple Alliance to uphold Treaty of Utrecht, and to end the War of Spanish Succession.
syll 91--Master Returns--1729 AD Seven of eight Lords Proprietors sell land in Province of Carolina back to English Crown. The result is the formation of South Carolina.
syll 100--Unexpected day--1738 AD On May 24th, John Wesley unexpectedly experiences "confirmation of salvation" while at a meeting on Aldersgate street in London. This led to the formation of Methodism. One good thing about Wesley's doctrine is the teaching of 'universal priesthood'.
syll 109--Unknown day--1747 AD On March 21st, John Newton (writher of Amazing Grace) is either saved or gets back in fellowship after praying to God for rescue while on sailing through a severe storm.
syll 117--Cut to asunder--1755 AD Braddock Expedition is ambushed and defeated during French and Indian War. Braddock is fatally wounded, Col. George Washington survives.
syll 130--Place of hypocrites--1768 AD Massachusetts House of Reps circulates Samuel Adam's letter, which states that Massachusetts is not and cannot be properly represented in British Parliament due to geographical distance, therefore, no taxation.
syll 132--Will assign--1770 AD British Soldiers who were assigned to keep order in Massachusetts (as a result of Samuel Adam's letter), become involved in an altercation that results in the Boston Massacre.
syll 139--Weeping--1777 AD American Revolution: not sure which event is in focus here.
syll 143--Gnashing--1781 AD American Revolution: again, not sure which event.
syll 147--Of teeth--1785 AD Northwest Indian War: British forces arm Native Americas (out of frustration from losing the American Revolution) in an attempt to prevent U.S. acquisition of Northwestern territories. The U.S. needs the land to pay off the debt from the Revolutionary War.

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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2016, 02:27 
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Wow. That's some biting sarcasm. So far you seem to have found something. Keep going as you have time. The key proof is, the whole will be consistent if you've got the right answer. If anything seems amiss, redo and recheck. Bible is self-auditing, like a jigsaw puzzle.

EDIT: concerning the 147 bookend, you might be right about that! I'm working on it, cuz the ending at 1717 seems odd.

Beginning bookend was from Matt 24:1, 40+44=84+42+21=147. I have to revisit that text for hints on a possible 147 ellision (1687+413=2100, and 413+147=560, parallel to Jacob in Gen 1:19, and of course repeating Matt24:1-18 meter sum). Perhaps the idea is that padding is the first 147 syllables, not merely 124? Okay, revisited text, Matt24:1-3, admiring Temple, Lord says it will be torn down, disciples ask what will be the signs. Makes sense to wall that off.

KILL ME NOW. If you subtract 147 from 1687 you get 1540 = 1050+490, then add 30 to get AD, you get 1570 AD, the beginning of the historical voting period during a time we call the REFORMATION (row 289 in GeneYrs.xls ). Makes a lot more sense. For that's the same math God used in taking down the 1st Temple 140 years before the historical voting period was to START, and was the tagged benchmark in Daniel's 9's meter.

So maybe we need to start over. Use v.4 at 30AD and then go forward? What are the text ties then?

Playing:

v.4, 21 syllables COUNTING Matt text, don't be deceived/wander from the truth/go apostate, (Greek planaw means all those things = 'hebrew', see Eph4:14). So, 30-51 AD. Covers Tiberius through most of Claudius, with 51 being when Nero got toga virilis and Imperial favor (lol, since some NT dateline meters use that kind of event). Could be something else. Sarcasm: all were deceived during this time, Tiberius by Sejanus, and Claudius through his wives and slaves. We have Bible to know how deceived Christians were, replete with the Acts 5 experiment, how the Judaizers were after Paul, etc.

But growth too, and 21 is Jacob's 'growth' period, service under Laban.

v.5-6 (not checking every year yet), next 70 years to 121AD, many come in My Name and deceive, wars and rumors of wars, don't be upset, the end is not yet (Are we there yet? kids ask parents, 'No'=oupw, say parents). And that happened, too: Temple Down, Year of the 4 Emperors, Trajan and start of Hadrian (in 117) and the warring with the Jews (114). But what's significant about 121? I don't know.

Doesn't seem to match as well. So maybe we're looking at a DUAL Timeline? Daniel did that, Psalm 90 was dual as well. Isaiah's was not dual. Paul's is not dual. Neither was Mary's.

WAIT! 21+70 might be the source for Paul's 91! Whoa. That 'Spring of Church' 91 ends at 147, too! Bullseye!

Moreover, since the extra shortfall for Christ dying 7 years early (at beginning of 62nd week of Dan9:26 rather than it's end) by the time Paul writes, he uses 91 instead of the Lord's 84 in Matt 24:7-9, maybe. Updating it to include what-if-Trib happens then, so to include it, since the historical trend of those Matt24 verses, would still be the same, and the literal meaning applies to Trib. Especially, since in Paul (and maybe the Lord's timeline too), that's when Diocletian and Constantine, come to power. LOL depending on the fiscal, the Lord's 84 takes you to Paul's 'proel' for Constantine's death on Pentecost, 337 AD (remember the sacred year runs six months behind the civil, so it would be 336 on the sacred calendar but 337 on civil or vice versa).

Or, maybe the Lord's own use of the timeline begins in v.4 and He's predicating it on 30 AD, to just show the outline of history, sorta to let you know the Rapture won't occur on time: in which case, the generic timeline takes you 1050+490, to 'our' 1570 AD, beginning of the voting period which characterizes the Reformation. Then Paul maybe keys off at v.4 to update that for specifics, but only carries those specifics to the end of the first 490. Or something similar. Not yet sure.

OR and this seems more likely: the Lord is predicating on 30AD, hence 1540, but that's 64 years prior to Mill, and Paul updates it when the Lord shoulda been 56 (in His 57th year), keying off Matt24:4's meter. For at that point, it is 40 years before the Mill, just as Mary had stopped, and of course growth etc. has occurred since, so the timeline needs more specifics to show the pattern of how it will go, for Church. For that historical pattern, indeed becomes the trend (Church goes political). So, from Odovacer onward; at whose own toga virilis, Paul stops.

Back to Matt24:4= 21 syllables=years = Paul's second dateline, 21 years after Tiberius died Eph1:4 (Greek won't show right unless you have Bibleworks fonts, click here to get them).

Adjusts for Varro's error). So in Paul it's the period Lord shoulda-been age 56-77, on the original Abrahamic timeline. Works if we just call that 'our' AD (56-77 AD).

THAT's why there's a remarkable convergence with Paul; but until the timeline is completed, we won't really know.

Much to rework here. It might well be true that we start at 30AD and go to 1717; maybe start at 70 AD. Maybe even at His Birth, like Paul does. I just don't know. Am exhausted. But there's no way to say the parsing isn't apt. Kill me now.


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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2016, 16:58 
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Sorry, had to get sleep last night. First solid night of sleep I've had since starting Matt 24.

If 147 is bookending, then I suspect an ellipsis of 308 to bookend the 455. Maybe that will resolve the awkward 1717. The rest needs to be mapped before we can get that far, first.

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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2016, 17:55 
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Yeah, I'm not sleeping rightly either. Can't get to sleep. Was trying, then it hit me: what if Paul's 56 is a 'walk back' to the last 56 syllables. Text omitted is Matt24:1 through first seven syllables in v.3, which corresponds to 'While He was sitting'. Yeah, because when Paul writes, the Lord is sitting in Heaven, not on Mount of Olives! So the text Paul counts, maybe starts with 'on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came...'.

Here's the punchline. That means 91 syllables FRONT the Matt24 text before Paul starts his count!

I gotta try and sleep now. I know you've a lot to chew on. This is a very big deal.


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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 06:25 
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Okay, just learned something important which might help you. I've been trying for YEARS to understand why Mary took the timeline to Christ age 56. Now I think I know: it's not merely to make a play on 40 years to the Mill. Look:

* Temple was supposed to be finished and dedicated such that it would have its 1050th year by the Mill, so its original deadline for DEDICATION was 3150 YoW. Christ was to die 54 years prior to that 1050 anniv -- in 4146 -- so the Gentile Time could be made up.
* Temple wasn't supposed to start building till David died, 2Sam7, and he died ON TIME, 3143. Had Construction begun immediately, and immediate dedication upon completion, then the Timeline wouldn't have changed.
* But Solomon DELAYED rebuilding until 4th year after David died, 1Kings 6:1, and then DELAYED dedication until rest of his secular rebuilding was done (rest of chapter through 1Kings 9:1). So now, 14 years late.

* 1000 years after David's death becomes the new limit for Christ's life, rather than the original 2100+2046 (Abraham's maturation), because no one else of Israel supermatured while she was a nation (Daniel is in exile, so too Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc) --or, because the rules changed and no one post-David could get a 1050 or that was the deal all along.

* So Christ, though originally scheduled to be born 4106 (so we still have to use that for our BC/AD adjustments and deriving Bible dates), got moved up to 4103, so He could still have the same 40 years yet now die by 4143 instead of 4146.

* He dies 7 years early.

So notice: Mary's taking the timeline to his age 56=57th year to add the 17 'lost' on Temple Time (14+3, rounded).

That may matter in your calculations. Sure helps me, now.


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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 06:47 
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Ok. That's interesting, and it seems to answer some questions that I posed on page one...but why does the delay in Temple time mirror Abraham's 54 year credit???

Was Solomon doing this purposely?

BTW. I edited my timeline post, completing vs 15-18.

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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 08:00 
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Saw your updated timeline post, and it makes sense. I'm beginning to suspect multiple timelines here. One, running v.1-52, which you're doing; others, at other places. Paul in particular seems to walk back 56 syllables from 24:4, then start his timeline at Christ's BIRTH, so to make a silent fronting 91 AND to create out of that back-walked 56, a title for his own Eph1:3-14 meter, What are the signs...

As for the delay in Temple Time, it's not mirroring Abraham's credit, that's the problem. It's cutting into his credit by 14+3 years. So adjustments in the Lord's Death Schedule have to be made. First adjustment, He has to now be born 3 or 3.5 years earlier. So the 54, becomes 57. No way to fix that. Next, 7 of the years had to be allocated to Messiah's life -- and it was, in Daniel 9:26 -- but then He died early, at beginning of 62nd week rather than end of it. Third, the Trib 7 is also outside Israel's time.

Moses forecast all this by cutting 14 syllables from Psalm 90:16-17 and sticking them in Ps90:1-4, then by crafting the Mosaic Law to show 50 Jubilee/Pentecost and Passover Week. Now, that makes me think the same overage predated David and the Temple, but maybe not. Maybe it was a warning.

So there is no mirror of 54 in the Temple timeline. Just in the total time allotment, since 2046+2100 would be the limit of Jewish time. Temple was supposed to be dedicated at the mid-pont, 3150. It wasn't.

Hence the 14 shortfall, and why Isaiah subtracts 28 from his meter (490-462 meter = 28). Because, Temple had 126 years left (70 in Dan 9:2 plus seven sevens in Dan 9:26 + 7 in Dan9:27), but the rebuilding took up 140 years, as shown in his meter and history. So: 7 of those years were Temple construction, reducing the total shortfall to 21; Christ dies 7 years early, so 14 remain. Of those 14, 7 are spent taking down 2nd Temple, 64-70 or 66-73 AD, depending on where you measure; and the remaining 7, is the Trib.

No way preterism holds water.


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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 08:43 
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Wow, that just blows my mind. If you suspect there are multiple timelines, feel free to test it and post the results. At this point, my understanding is mostly linear, so I've got my hands full with a forward linear timeline.

I'm just starting to map out vs 10-14, and I'm already seeing some very biting satire; Christians vs Pagans, then later Christians vs Christians...the whole Crusader Arrogance thing...

I will continue to edit the timeline post so I can keep it all in one place. I'm just shocked at how historically accurate this is. Its so accurate that I had to change an elision in vs 18 from ἐπιστρεψάτω ὀπίσω to μὴ ἐπιστρεψάτω. Like you said "self auditing"...like the Bible says, "alive and powerful".

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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 10:04 
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So didn't the total meter change?

As for multiple timelines, what I mean is multiple LAYERS of timelines. Like storeys of a building. They all interrelate. I think Christ is playing of a combo of Gen1 and Psalm 90 styles. But that's just conjecture, for now.

The one you're working on, 560+476+434+217=1470+217=1687
The one you started to work on, -124=1519=1470+217 Notice also that 434x4=1736-217=1519, so maybe Paul is adding another 434, so maybe has multiple timelines, too.

The one you suspected which I'm now working on, -147=490+70+490+490 =Paul. He's tagging the text, not making a parallel timeline. He's elaborating on how to use that text for real future history so if the Rapture happens during 'your' segment of it, you can orient to the whole.

I'm sure there are more. This is something of a Grand Central Station passage for Bible. I'm in shock, frankly.

The biggest thing is, Paul's cutting the text as his parashah, Torah passage, by using METER! How often will we find this in Bible? MASSIVE HELP to hermeneutics and textual criticism. Makes me think the metering is far more pervasive than I've supposed.
    Paul cleverly tags syllables 92 (leaving 91 fore, get it) through 581, with the first 56 as his new TITLE for the new Torah portion God gives him to write, cleverly ending it with the first 21 syllables in Matt24:19, about PREGNANT WOMEN IN PERIL (through tais).

    Get the pun? 21? Pregnant? And one thing the scholars all agree on is that Paul's obsessed with the pregnancy theme in all his letters (Rom8:11, Gal 4:19, etc). So his tagging is like a signature, not to mention how well it ties to how Paul ends his text, with an indivisible 91 'winter' and in the timeline, when a WOMAN ran the Emperors (Pulcheria as Theotokos), and persecution for 'heresy' became rife. Explosive stuff!

    I wondered for years if I'd parsed and interpreted Paul rightly. This is my smoking gun. I owe you much. You had NO idea I was worried all these years. But God did.

For we SHOULD see multiple timeline reconciliations to Abraham, to Flood, to Temple, to Christ, to Mill, to Adam. For at each juncture, the original Plan, redirects, adjusts, to balance. I know Paul is doing that with his anaphora meters in Eph1:3-14, beginning here (or p.127 of the Eph1DecreeSyllablesREPARSED.pdf copy, going nearly to the end); but it boggles my mind to have to revisit his math again.


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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 16:48 
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No, the meter total didn't change, I just traded out one elision for another within a single sentence.

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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 17:41 
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Okay, well I feel much more certain Paul's playing off the meter, and you know what? He separates the 56 and the 14 the way the Lord does IN REVERSE In Matt 24:

560
476 (14 in ellipsis, which Paul does in Eph 1:10)
434 (Paul's total count but NOT keying off that Matt 24 section, 56 elided)
217 same as Magnificat.

Now here's what's interesting. If you go from 30 AD

+560=590 AD, no brainer. But then
+476 = 1066 AD, somehow a pivotal time in future Bible history (why Norman Conquest, if that, I don't know)
+14 ellipsis, pivotal time in history, takes us to the end of the first 1050 (1080 AD).
So now
+434 (126+308) takes us to 1514, Luther and Reformation. 56 left out, to next voting period, which begins in 1570. Shortfall idea, history might not continue, same as in Psalm 90.
+56 ellipsis (so 308+56!) Another 49+7 time in history, parallel to Temple Down. Paul uses 56 to open and close, bracketing Eph1:4 and 1:14.

But then
+70, clearly the voting period to 1640, still Reformation; and then
+147, which takes us to (drumroll please).. 1787! Trust you know what that is. Not a nice ending, at verse 51.

So are we the King of the West? Or is it sarcasm, considering our founding WAS as outcasts? Eventually we go down or align with whatever becomes fake Church of Rev17 (happening always, even until now).

Yet since Magnificat theme was 1st Chanukah (restoring Temple) to His death then the 17 makeup, then 40 years to Mill, the implication is that the US remains and is a renewal spawned by the Reformation. Which of course, is historically true. We are the only nation on earth at this point, who makes Bible learning among common folk, a personal issue, who has no state church.

Pretending that's true, then maybe we have a final ellipsis of
+217 to 2004
+126 to 2130 AD
=close of the next @2130 AD, signifying Church. But in ellipsis, for after all it might not really complete.
Heh.


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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2016, 04:39 
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Was England the Client Nation around 1640 AD?

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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2016, 05:12 
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You could argue that, yeah. They broke away from Rome back in the 1530's, Henry VIII, remember the story? Right in time for the voting period. Heh.

I remember Thieme claiming that Columba's ministry turned Scotland etc. into client nation, and that during Elizabeth and especially James (Elizabeth reigned after H VIII died) her successor, that it was a client nation then.

History shows that folks like John Knox, who taught James (he of King James Bible) were active in Scotland, England, etc.

Moreover, it looks like maybe the ellipsis is 560 after Matt 24:51, but not in one piece. It looks like above my prior post, but the total ellipsis is 560. Whether those last two units are meant to be the specific elisions I don't know, I was playing off meter repetition in the passage. Paul prominently stops submetering at 343=217+126, so maybe not subdivided, but I'd bet money it's intended by Christ.

DANG! Could I be dumber? OF COURSE Paul tags 92nd-581st syllable for his From Christ Birth timeline -- 91 stands for when the Trib was supposed to begin doctrinally (as Lord's Age), AS WELL AS begin the (now even more apt) cross-ref Matt 24 parashah for his own meter! SORRY!

Film at 11. But on what day, I don't know.


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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2016, 05:37 
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Ok, I need to map out the 70, and try to lock in some historical benchmarks, but I probably wont be able to post results until Sunday night. I have to render unto Caesar tomorrow, get my truck fixed, plus some other obligations, but 1640 is going to be driving my crazy all day. I think you're right about the 56 and 14, but I need to test it first.

Scotland is exactly what's on my mind...

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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2016, 06:58 
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Yeah, take your time (heh). There are at least 2 timelines here, plus one retrospective, plus the generic trends with the 2100 having an ellided 560 at the end. I edited my just-prior post too, which at the end should make you smile. I get what Paul's doing, now, and it's a doozie.

Pretend:
Timeline 1, full monty, full 1687 + ellipses of 14, 56 (Paul reverses these, so they are real), then 217 and 126 (=343, which Paul also plays on) = 2100. Could be annual, could be literal. Could be starting at Christ's death OR Birth.
Timeline 2, same but used generically for trends.
Timeline 3, starts at verse 4, picks up where Mary leaves off, Christ Age 56 (57th year) hence aligns with Paul's usage but he counts the 56 backwards to epi in v.3, to align, title, and play on the preceding '91'.
Count then is 1687-147=1540=1050+490, and Paul's text is elaborative for same period, BUT starting at that first 21 in Matt24:4, aka 57AD. So covers the same years, TWO COMMENTARIES on them, annual and literal.

Just guessing.

So Timeline 3 is a layered one, kinda like how Daniel piggybacked his meter atop Isaiah 53 to create that Man of Time line to 238 BC which Mary used for her Magnificat. I suspect the 364 in Rev1 piggybacks here in Matt24 also, but I've not yet figured out what if any timeline, is in Rev 1.


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2016, 01:18 
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Ok, so I had a massive change in plans today...completely out of my control, so I guess God wanted me to work on this.

I added to the timeline post above, so you can look at it. If it is correct, then it means that Pope Gregory deleted 2 years from our calendar system. I can't make sense of the benchmarks without subtracting 2 years after 1582/1584 AD. This seems to confirm my initial suspicions about Pope Gregory, but let me know if you see better dates to benchmark.

I'll continue later, I'm too burned out right now.

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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2016, 23:25 
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Okay, well I looked at your ongoing revision so far, here. Keep at it. I'm wondering whether those clauses aren't ALL satire, because even the Protestants were spiritual morons. The only one who shows any spiritual growth, seems to be James. I know that statement sounds arrogant, but these guys are all into ritual and state religion, still.


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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2016, 01:10 
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Well, I'm not sure if its all satire, I think its a mixture of dual entendre. The Covenanters were mostly goofy Presbyterians, but the National Covenant and Solemn Covenant where designed to allow theological freedom from the Anglican authority. So as a result, many believers gained temporary freedom under Oliver Cromwell.

King James was a mix too. His Bible, while flawed, supplied the pivot with an alternate translation. His Five Articles of Perth are a mix of Legalism (bishop confirmation, holy days, and kneeling during communion) and doctrinal principles (baptism in privacy, and private communion for the sick).

So far I'm seeing how God works all things together for His plan...even our stupidity.

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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2016, 01:44 
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Okay, well again, keep going. He gave this to you. I'm working on how Paul is using the timeline 3. Not sure what I've posted so far here, is wholly correct.

EDIT 3/15/16 at 3:00 Am Central Time: PAUL'S DOING TWO annual timelines on Matt24. It's a "Row Row Row Your Boat" kind of antiphonal insertion of his text into Matthew 24. WITH 62 as the theme!
Father, please kill me. But You won't, oupw.

Recovering...

FIRST timeline is synchronized exactly to Matt24:1, starting at that first Kai. Paul links 'eulogia' the 30th syllable in Eph1:3, so Paul's text ends at syllable 404 in Matt24, which is its verse 13 (copied from your revised whole chapter pdf), ὁ δὲ ὑπομείνας εἰς τέλος . Paul's ending clause is eis epainon tes doxes autou. See the eis chaining to make a full sentence? Kill me now.

It's really biting sarcasm, at least through Domitian, how Paul's text interlaces by clause, with Matt24's same 'year' syllable. I've not tested it further. Am too shocked.

That was syllable=year (AD) 30 through 434 in Paul, and 1-404 in Matt24.

SECOND timeline, starts at Matt24:3's cum (from v.1) syllable 92, which is v.3's
ἐπὶ τοῦ ὄρους τῶν Ἐλαιῶν προσῆλθον αὐτῷ οἱ μαθηταὶ κατ’ ἰδίαν λέγοντες Εἰπὲ ἡμῖν, πότε ταῦτα ἔσται,
+
(3b.) καὶ τί τὸ σημεῖον τῆς σῆς παρουσίας καὶ συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος

= 56 syllables = Eulogetos..exzelexzeto hemas in Paul (his first dateline).

Cuz his next clause is 21, lining up with Matt24:4. From then on it's a straight shot, and the first 91 in Paul, aligns with Matt24:4-6.

So Matt24's syllable 92-30=62! Clever, huh. Just like the song Row Row Row Your Boat, for Groundhog Day 62, same trends replay but in different sections of time and different regions.

So what's important about 121 AD (30+91)? I don't know. That's when Hadrian's travels started, and it did have an impact on the Empire, on the development of his antisemitism. Short article, here.

    Paul does benchmark it in Ephesians, tou thelemetos autou, and that's important: it's one of the anaphora. Trajan dies at the eta in thelematos. Next occurrence of thelematos, Macrinus dies; and the final thelematos, Diocletian dies.

    Key similarity in all three, is that the WILL of the deceased is essentially UNDONE by the successor. Ouch.

I need to proof all this, it's just a preliminary hypothesis for now. I'm still not sure what to make of the dual aligning 147's. It's clearly deliberate, as you suspected!


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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2016, 02:29 
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Ok. I've completed the mapping of vs 47-51 and updated the timeline post. Sorry it took so long to post it. Based on the timeline, I'm pretty sure your ellipsis theory of 14+56 is correct. So this is how I'm seeing the consecutive timeline from 30 AD forward (ellipses in red):

(84+42+21)+(21+70)+84+(28+105)+105=560

then

14+119+168+189=490

then

56+(14+112)+308+70=560

then

147

so 560+490+560+147=1757

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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2016, 06:37 
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Oh, good shot. I forgot about the last 217 being 70+147. That might help me understand why Paul doubles his text at two different sections in Matt24. West and East Empire, I got that much, but in the FIRST use (where eulogia pegs to Kai in Matt24:1), he's tracing the origin of the Exodus to protect Bible (Paul's theme).. to the US.

Have much more to do!


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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2016, 07:08 
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Yeah, there is much to do. I'm going to take a break from the Timeline and finish metering Matt 25. It is definitely metered. I made some progress with it tonite. I want to have the entire panorama available so we can zero in on the minor details. We have a good start with the 14 and 56 ellipses. I'm pretty sure they're locked in, but I suspect another ellipsis.

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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2016, 21:11 
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Okay. I'm sure Luke 21 will interleave. He interleaves text with Matthew, so maybe meter is filled in, too. Paul didn't get the reversal of the 56 and 14 from nowhere. Maybe it's in Luke.

As for the 147, I'm still baffled. If Jacob's age, and in combos of 56+91, 63+84, 70+77, why? I don't know, but the equidistant 147 is deliberate, that's for sure.


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PostPosted: 19 Mar 2016, 04:44 
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Well, I got Matt 25 done. The Parable of the Ten Virgins totals at 364 syllables. I found that interesting.

The total count is:

(63+49+70+77+105)+(98+42+126+84+182+35+35)+(112+119+91+49+112+98+28)=1,575

I am burned out. Hopefully, the metering part is over for now.


Attachments:
File comment: Matt 25. Have fun.
Meter of Matthew 25.pdf [99.64 KiB]
Downloaded 34 times

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