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Topic review - Daniel 9 Meter
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Daniel 9 Meter  Reply with quote
Yes, perhaps he wrote it later, or maybe even wrote it first and then read it aloud as his prayer; though it's more likely written later, since at the time of praying he couldn't know what the answer would be, exactly. Gabriel had to tell him. Plus, he couldn't KNOW it was to become Canon, could he -- until after God answered? I'm guessing. Cuz to write it out for others means God must have commanded it. So the written account is what we get.

But since he's quoting himself, we know his actual prayer was metered. I mean, to add 49 syllables in verse 4, makes that whole style work. So he was doing it, on purpose, titling his own prayer. Unless you can come up with a better answer. For the meter is a cumulative count, therefore the 49 syllables at the beginning, make for the entire pattern. Luke does the same thing to the Magnificat, and hers is metered WITHOUT Luke's addition. So she's titling her own prayer herself. Luke added 'kai eipen Miryam' to align their own Anno Domini (in the meter), to Varro (which became law when Luke wrote, was not yet law when Mary spoke).

No, the meter style is to include the writer's name from the getgo. Moses started the style in Genesis 1, and counts his own 'Prayer of Moses' text as part of the meter in Psalm 90. Remember, the purpose of meter is to COUNT SYLLABLES for accurate copying and repeating, so EVERY WORD gets counted. It's not like our modern metering style.

There are 30 rules for the meter I've found so far, defined per the actual Bible usage. You might find others. The 30 I've found so far, are listed here: . Substitute 'pdf' for 'htm' or 'doc' to get download in pdf or doc format.

It's a habit of Bible Hebrew to state the TITLE as part of the book, starts in Genesis 1, whose title is IN THE BEGINNING...

So that's where you start Daniel's meter. With the new editor I think I can show the embed (play button, in the Editor) for easier reference, here. It's fuzzy within the embed, but just after you start to play, click on the Settings at right and select 1080p HD. That should sharpen it. Notice how 9:4 is the verse where Daniel starts the meter, a) because it is BRACKETED by another 49, and b) because it TIES BACK IN TIME to the Temple's downfall. So those are other checks you do to determine WHEN the metering begins. Ask God for verification, don't trust what I say. The truth should be objectively verifiable, as just stated, but God might offer more info than I know to say.

Now lemme test it for vimeo, because that's where my 'smarter' videos are all stored. Vimeo videos are allowed to all have aliases, so the alias (instead of the link below) is So to see the other videos, just reduce or increase the 9d# . All the 9d vids are on Daniel. Related vimeo channels are listed in that vid's description, whether the Youtube or vimeo copy. Master list of all the meters I've found in Gen through Rev so far, is in the first two pages here, . That listing also has a master list of the videos in the same first pages. Other docs have listings, but that's the latest one (sorry, I don't have time to update everything at once).
Post Posted: 16 Sep 2015, 18:41
  Post subject:  Re: Daniel 9 Meter  Reply with quote
Ok. I spent some time watching your new videos. All I can comment on is whether or not Daniel actually spoke in meter as he prayed. I doubt he did. Here is why, you say Daniel 9:4-13 is 434 syllables long. According to one of your documents (which I double checked with Biblehub's transliteration), verse 4 begins with a 3rd person intro to the prayer. So out of the total 434 syllables, only 419 are Daniel's prayer in 1st person. That is not divisible by 7.

Did Daniel know to start off 15 syllables short of 49 to include a later introduction? It's possible, but don't think so.

I think the account happened and when Daniel wrote it down, the Holy Spirit metered it for him.

How would you explain the inclusion of the 3rd person statements (especially the one introducing God's reply in verse 20)? That would imply foreknowledge.

I do believe the metering is there. You have convinced me of that.
Post Posted: 16 Sep 2015, 05:36
  Post subject:  Daniel 9 Meter Import Summary Video  Reply with quote
Click here for vimeo or here for Youtube Video Summary of the Daniel 9 Meter Import, baldly showing how to read Daniel 9:24-27, since GOD USES DANIEL'S METER NUMBERS in His Textual reply. The video's description has links to the relevant docs/pdfs/backup videos to demonstrate that proof. The video itself, merely summarizes it with obvious meter showing the same numbers as we see in the 'later' text of Daniel 9:24-27. Since you can count the syllables yourself, the evidence is objectively verifiable.

I can't get the Flash to work in Firefox. It will display a big white box. Same problem for Chrome, hence you can right-click on the link, and watch the video in a new tab. Sorry!
Post Posted: 15 Sep 2015, 02:47
  Post subject:  Re: Daniel 9 Meter  Reply with quote
Your questions are not mundane. They are important questions, and I have them also. I find it really hard to believe that the very obvious meter patterns shown, aren't reflected elsewhere in extra-Biblical writings. We know for sure that metered writing was used outside of the Bible, it's a very common feature in Greek. But the style is not the same. We also know that it was at least sometimes a style to write meter with a specific number of syllables as a timeline. But again, this style is not the same.

This is not rhyming. It's an accounting meter. Scholars keep missing it because they are expecting other types of styles they know, instead of looking at the Bible text and seeing what style is native to that text. But if you look at it yourself, the patterns are obvious. I did the videos for that reason, so that anyone can look straight at the Bible text and see the style.

So why can't we find added 'witnesses' to that style in the past? Well, maybe they exist but the manuscripts are unknown -- once upon a time, many of the Bible mss weren't found, either -- or, maybe someone isn't disclosing the material, or.. I don't know. All I know is what I show and the patterns are really bald. Nothing secretive about them.

But this is SOURCE TEXT, so technically it shouldn't matter whether we find anything by anyone else 'recognizing' it. I don't need the sanction of an 'expert' to look up in the sky, see the Sun itself, and KNOW it's there.

The source text is pretty bald about what the numbers in Daniel 9:24-27 in God's reply, signify. Or at least, you have almost no doubt that God's Reply is to Daniel's METER, for look at the video again: the 49, 69, 434 are all bald. So is 476 which is 14 shy of 490.

Video link, this time the Youtube copy, just stop the video at four seconds, and look at the screen: It conforms to the 490s in the begat differentials and in text like Genesis 4 and when the Lord says seventy times seven, the fact that Noah and Abraham keep on being 490 years apart (their sons, their maturation dates), how David's crowned 1050 years after Abraham matured, the Temple is dedicated 490 years after the Exodus, Christ is born 1000 years after David's crowned King over all Israel, many many obvious set dates like that in the Bible itself.

Sanhedrin 98 of the Talmud already knows the 40 year allotment for Messiah's lifetime, which is relevant because then He would be scheduled to DIE 2100 years after Abraham's maturation.

So the point is, the meter is in many ways just added confirmation. We're not looking at the explicit text Bible provides and adding it up right. So if we ignore the source text, then the fact that no one's noticing the meter either, isn't really much of a surprise. And in all events, the AUTHORITY is the source text, not negligent Dear Dr So and So who leads you in rah rah Jesus songs.
Post Posted: 13 Sep 2015, 20:26
  Post subject:  Re: Daniel 9 Meter  Reply with quote
I just find it strange. Is there anything talking about the meter's existence in the Talmud or other traditional commentaries? If this was once common knowledge, even if only in academic circles, I would expect someone to have written something about it. The Church fathers may have been idiots but you would think they would've at least have parroted somthing about it.

Speaking in rhythm and rhymes takes practice, but it becomes easy. In high school I used to freestyle rapp and I can compose music, so I know that meterings isn't rare; however, its one thing to speak casually in meter, but to map out a historic/prophetic timeline requires pen, paper, and time (in my opinion). How can it be proven that Daniel even knew he was speaking or writing in such an organized meter? This seems more like an illustration of divinely inspired authorship. Look at Balaam. He meant to curse Israel, but the Holy Spirit blessed them instead.

I know that my questions may appear mundane compared to the overall subject matter, but what if the knowledge of the meter is only reserved for a small group of believers rather than the general public?

If it was meant to be public knowledge, then Christians have really dropped the ball.

If its only meant for certain people, then why now?
Post Posted: 13 Sep 2015, 19:24
  Post subject:  Re: Daniel 9 Meter  Reply with quote
Yeah, Daniel knew he was metering the prayer -- out loud as he talked! -- and he expected others reading what he wrote to know. The meter system goes back to Moses ever since Genesis 1, written the year before Moses died.

Obviously the Jews forgot how it worked, but since the meter style is in every book and maybe every chapter of the Bible, we can see how it works. Whether MY conclusions about it are right, one can rightly dispute. But its existence as a meter style, should be indisputable by now. If even this brainout can see it, then surely the hoary heads should be able to. All you have to do, is count syllables. I did a writeup on how anyone can diagnose meter, click here. (You can get pdf or doc by changing htm to pdf or doc, in that link.)

I've been looking for evidence that anyone in Christendom or Judaism (outside of obviously the Bible writers and readers), knew of the meter. So far I'm not finding anything. I kinda don't expect the Church Fathers to know, because their ability to understand Scripture is provably zero. Church Hall of Shame video series isn't complete, but it shows live from their own words which you can read yourself via links in the video descriptions, that they couldn't get Bible right if their lives depended on it.

That others don't see it, I cannot explain. Yet once you see it, you'll know.

Ironic, that you should post now. I just finished making more videos on 'Daniel Revisited' which I'll post to vimeo in a couple of hours.

The most important thing about Daniel's style to note, is that
  • all the numbers God uses in His Reply from Daniel 9:24-27, repeat Daniel's metered numbers in his prayer. You cannot see that in English.
  • So then Daniel meters the years Israel didn't observe her sabbaticals, as 434.
  • Well, in God's reply that specific time is reimbursed, as 434 aka '62 weeks'.
  • The number of sabbatical years missed, was 49, which Daniel bookends in his meter, writing in the 49th year that the Land finally had its 'sabbaths'.
  • God then reimburses that time, in His Reply as 'seven weeks'.
  • Not stated in the text because it's in Jeremiah instead, are the reimbursements for the two Seventy-year DECREES God made,
  • so Gabriel only alludes to them in Daniel 9:24 as 'decree to rebuild'. GOD's decree. Not, a human king's.
How many millions of dollars and man hours over the centuries have been lost because we listened to dippy Eusebius instead of BIBLE....

EDIT: vid here, The next one will be d6, followed by d7, 8, 9.. so just change that last digit. The collections are primarily two showing these videos in order, so you can click on the 'couch' and (God help you) watch them play sequentially: and, which focuses on how Paul apes Daniel's meter style.
Post Posted: 13 Sep 2015, 02:14
  Post subject:  Re: Daniel 9 Meter  Reply with quote
Do you think that maybe the Church was never destined to know this information as common knowledge? Not because God is hiding it, but because we choose not to see. I mean, why isn't there any documentation reflecting any of this from the early Christians? God preserved the Old Testament via the Jews for us today, what if this 'meter' is being rediscovered for the Jews at a future time?

Sorry, but I just don't see your everyday church goer deviating from their hand-shaking-ministries and potlucks long enough to absorb any of this. If its not Jonathan Khan, they don't read it. Its a darn miracle that I happened to click on one of your videos out of the chaos of youtube.

Did Daniel even know that he was metering his prayer?
Post Posted: 12 Sep 2015, 08:12
  Post subject:  Daniel 9 Meter  Reply with quote
There are as many interpretations of Daniel 9, as there are people. So it's really helpful that his prayer, is metered (click here). The meter is consistent with the style Moses used from Genesis 1 onward, and Daniel 'tags' Moses and Isaiah's meter in a provable manner, so you can tell WHAT DANIEL MEANS. (I really should write a book on this, but maybe God wants someone else to do that, someone society will respect. The data isn't mine, but BIBLE, so anyone can do it. Hence this post.)

Simply put, God granted 2100 years to the goyim then 2100 years to the Jews; during the last 94, Messiah was to be born Year 4106 from Adam's Fall, then pay for sins and die at age 40, which would be 2100 years after Abraham matured; leaving, 53.5 years on the clock to the Promised Psalm 90:4 Millennium, just as Moses tracked since the end of Genesis 1 (in meter). Why? Because Abraham matured 53.5 years prior to the end of the first 2100, so Jewish Time had to begin EARLY. The idea was, the 'Jubilee' (last 50 years) and 'time of Jacob's trouble' (3.5 years) would be in effect, Gentile Time Reimbursed. Ergo, ever since Moses wrote Genesis, there was a SET TIME (l'moed, in Hebrew) for everything, and especially for Messiah.

Problem was, a) would God be faithful to keep that TIME promise? Then b) would Israel be faithful to accept Messiah when He came? Answers: a) yes, b) no. But that outcome wasn't known, until He came.

Meanwhile, the Schedule could be thwarted or delayed. So Daniel's prayer, is actually an accounting recap of the time spent to show that the Temple went down per God's ruling in Jeremiah 25:11ff and 29:10, which Daniel was reading at the time, per Daniel 9:2. So when the 70 years had nearly elapsed for Daniel's own captivity in the first wave of deportees with Nebuchadnezzar -- he invokes that SCHEDULE as the juridical basis for rebuilding the Temple. So his prayer is metered as an accounting balance sheet, and God too replies in meter showing those accounting values.. but for us reading in translation, we only see the numbers in God's reply and don't know why those numbers are there.

The debates have thus been endless.

For Daniel, this was basic calendar math: as his meter shows, ticking off time per kingship year, starting with David at Hebron: David had to be crowned no later than the 1050st year after Abraham matured.. and he was, which Daniel meters in Daniel 9:6.. but then David died late at age 77 (a blistering point made in the accounting from 1Kings 1:1-6:1, which Daniel is recounting in his prayer), so that set the clock back for Last David aka Christ's Birth, to be no later than the 97th year prior to the elapse of, the 4200nd year after Adam's FALL, so to die no later than the 1000th anniversary of David's own death in 963 BC. (The 2100+2100 is measured starting with Adam's Fall, Genesis 3:15-22.)
  • 17 years after Daniel's prayer and wittily, Haggai 2 will update Christ's Birth DAY as 4103 from Adam's Fall, but 25 Chislev, later known as Chanukah (after sundown on the 24th), twice in Haggai 2. Clever play on Seed of Baal to become Seed of Christ, aka Zeru (Seed) ba (of) Bel (baal). For Zerubaby was the adopted or real son of Shealtiel, who was the adopted son of Jeconiah, whose seed was cut off (yeah, he was 18 when jailed, and stayed jailed until age 55). The line shifted from the older son of Bathsheba, Solomon, to the younger, Nathan: that's the Miriam bloodline recount, in Luke.
So the '62nd week' of Daniel, ended at 37 AD, 586 (BC) +70+70+49+434, when He was scheduled to Die. Then another now 57 years was to elapse (adjusting for Solomon's lateness in 1Kings 6:1, 3.5 years after David died). So the Mill should have started in 94 AD. It didn't. The Trib should have started 7 years prior, in 87AD. It didn't. Because, Christ died 7 years EARLIER THAN SCHEDULED, a fact which goes missed by 'scholars' who insist on using lunar years, though the Bible only uses solar (483 lunar years equals 476 solar, so they miss the extra seven in their calculations). So He dies at the end of the 61st week, not 62nd.

So pre-Trib rapture remains due to Israel's being owed an added seven years that were supposed to be spent taking down the Temple. So those seven years still play, and against the Temple as everyone expected.. but the Tribulation seven, remains.

  • It's an accounting balance. Very prosaic. Now you can see why the preterists get it wrong. They use lunar years, realize that yes, the seven years from (however you want to count it) 64-70AD or 66-73AD got played on the Temple take-down, so.. done, finished. So they don't see the extra seven. Dispies are no better, using some old book by a guy who for a hobby, informally GUESSING the Daniel 9 timeline, to balance it to when Christ ACTUALLY died (not knowing there was a schedule).. so they mangle the BIBLE's 62 weeks, to Palm Sunday, or some other similar nonsense.

    No one bothers to balance all this to BIBLE. So no one realizes the math doesn't balance, because no one's looking at WHO ISSUED THE DECREE (God, duh) in Daniel 9:24, talking back to Jeremiah 25 and 29, which Daniel was reading (Dan 9:2) and which provoked his prayer. Instead, everyone claims the Darius of Nehemiah's day was the guy issuing a decree, though BIBLE NEVER SAYS that. In fact, the only recorded decree, is by Cyrus, within maybe a few months after Daniel prays! So then the 'decree' cannot be a human king's, and balance. Yeah, because God is King of the Universe, and Dan 9:24 tells you it's HIS Decree. Ooops. :bubblegum:

    In short, both preterists and pre-Tribbers have been misaccounting Daniel 9, for centuries. Okay, so let's all kick ourselves for fifty-seven seconds, then realize we're all forgiven since the Cross, 1John 1:7; therefore, we can use 1John1:9 and get our brains back. :thumbsup:
So John writes Revelation in 88 AD, a year after the Trib was supposed to start, to explain why Trib didn't begin on the old schedule. In 88AD, Domitian wanted everyone and his brother jailed for conspiracy; so maybe someone in the provinces who wanted to curry favor with Domitian, went on a Christian/Jewish witch-hunt, and jailed John for that reason. (For there's no proof Domitian ordered John jailed. The so-called 'church fathers' lie about everything, couldn't get a Bible doctrine right if their lives depended on it.. and just blamed Domitian. You know, name-dropping. We shouldn't just swallow, what they write!) Rev is an update on, Daniel 9.

So as you can imagine, this Daniel 9 meter is a political powder keg. People have been killing each other for centuries, over Bible interpretation. Every denomination will have a vested interest in the meter, pro or con. That makes it difficult to evaluate, objectively. So the best approach, is to examine Daniel 9's meter, forensically. Draw conclusions from SOURCE, not opinion.

Ergo, my many videos. For Daniel, the videos are few, because the pdf is really better, click here. Video channel is here, very unfinished. Notice I don't cover variants, because (as is usual) in the BHS text, I didn't find any. Doesn't mean there aren't any, but as you know the Hebrew texts have been simplified much over the years, and the variants eliminated. So you're kinda limited to qere versus kethib readings. By contrast, LXX varies a lot, and I didn't use it, since it's not metered, and not original.

One thing for sure: those who claim a late date for Daniel, don't know how to read the Hebrew. Yes, it's Hebrew in Chapter 9. I don't cover that and a lot of the debate, in videos or the pdf. :P There is a limited intro to Daniel in the Youtube videos, starting here. That link's video description has a lot of audio outlining the whole book, using the NIV to make it easier to follow. Orientation to the whole book matters, to get the context of Daniel 9 properly seated. It's positively embarrassing how badly Chapter 9 has been misread over the centuries. Calvies and Catholics are especially bad at it, but the Dispies aren't all that great, either. So of course the debate continues, if everyone's inept!

So where to start to get what DANIEL meant? Well, the pdf is good for its meter chart and 'Footnote E', which tracks the specific verses Daniel references as he talks; his satire is biting, so that makes it easier to know what verses he has in mind. So the meter, combined with the clever matching of words to verses mostly in Kings and Chronicles (which Daniel was reading at the time Chapter 9 begins, see Dan 9:2) -- that altogether, makes for an extremely sophisticated study I don't quite know how to cover, in videos.

Mary knows what Daniel means,
  • so she ends her meter at her Future Son's age 56 = the number of syllables Daniel omits from his prophetic metered timeline.
  • Because, only 40 years would remain to the Millennium (clever reversal of His Planned Death Age and years remaining to Mill).
  • So Paul in Ephesians 1:3-14, picks up where Mary leaves off.
  • He thus writes when Christ would have been age 56 on the initial timeline (our 59 AD),
  • pointedly using Daniel 9's 434 as Paul's own meter for Church in Dan 9:26 Groundhog Day loop -- 56 at either end, get the pun?
  • They all three play on Moses' and Isaiah's use of '56' which is the sevened meter version of 57. It's the most common meter 'tag' key, in Scripture.
    • See, in Jewish time, 57 begins at the 'sundown' of 56... So all the Bible writers play with 56, as it's
    • 49=years Temple Down, plus 7 sabbatical years owed on the 49 sabbatical years missed and elapsed during Temple Down (search on 'Accountant' after clicking that link, to see the full math).
    • So God splits the 49 and the 7 in Daniel 9:25ff: for the extra 7 years cannot be made up until Messiah's lifetime.
    • Moses was predicting it in Psalm 90:16-17, with the clever 'establish the work of our hands'.
    • Isaiah tagged that phrase to show Messiah's Hand, in Isaiah 53:10, last phrase.
    • Isaiah gave a precise prophecy of the Temple going down 126 years after his date of writing.. at which point,
    • it would be 126 years short of its own 490-year allotment (measured from the Exodus to dedication, 1Kings9).
    • This is 70+49+7; so God's reply to Daniel shows that time being reimbursed.
    • Thus a new 490 can be added, '490 years have been decreed..', Daniel 9:24, same basic Time Promise Unit since Adam's fall.
    • And right on time too, since 950BC Temple Dedication should have gone to 460 BC, and another 490 be granted.
    • But Temple Down, 586BC! Time Short!
    • So notice the balance: 490+126=616.
    • Since it has to balance back to Temple Down, therefore 586BC +616 = 37 AD,
    • all the time is made up if if if Messiah dies on time, which was David's death plus 1000 years =37AD.
    • But He didn't. He died seven years EARLY.
Again, the 56 -- which equals the number of days from Passover to Pentecost, and again from Pentecost to 9th Av, the same as will be the takedown time of the 2nd Temple too -- that 56, is employed by all these writers. Yeah, except.. although discernible and documented in the videos, this stuff is UNKNOWN in university and other sources of theological erudition. It's unknown, because the math errors over the centuries, never get corrected, so they all mask the accounting:
  • They misread Numbers 28:26, so don't realize the 'counting of the Omer' begins piggybacked on the LAST day of Passover week; so the Jewish calendar is always wrong, and the Gentiles aren't any better.
  • They use lunar years when Bible only uses solar (birthdays);
  • So they misread 1 Chron 24, David's priestly courses are based on a solar year, 365.25 days per priestly course by the time the year ends (24-hour days), 30 days per month but Elul gets 35 (sacred year, remember).
  • They use Josephus rather than Bible, claiming David died at age 70 (no, that's when he retired, 1Kings 1:1 and 1Chron22ff, he lives another seven years, 1Kings 2:39 takes you to 3 years after his death with Shimei and then 1Kings 6:1 is six months later, very clear math);
  • They don't notice the 490-year benchmarks in the Genesis begats, and don't ask 'why 490 in Daniel 9?' So they miss the blatant fact that
  • David's Hebron crowning is 1050 years after Abraham matured (490+70+490), because
  • they instead date Bible using Sothic cycles or astronomy charts or Babylonian dates or Hippolytus/Eusebius incredibly bad math, rather than using BIBLE itself.
Actually, it was due to Eusebius' perennial incompetence and lying in nearly everything he wrote, which resulted in my learning Daniel's meter. That dingdong just flat added 490 years to come up with the totally-anti-Biblical idea that David ruled in 1076 BC (586+490)! But, Eusebius is dead now, and knows better. Pity no one respects him enough to fix his math, so he doesn't have to keep reliving his mistakes... Pity more, that some OLD human's writing, matters more than Scripture!

Drives me nuts. Dispies and non-dispies alike will be shocked to see their bad scholarship, so easily undone. Catholics and Calvinists and all preterists are shown slipshod, but the pre-Tribbers (and I'm among them) aren't shown up to be right, either. For Bible's accounting basis differs from ALL of them. Yeah, Rapture is Pre-Trib, but pre-Tribbers get the reason and timing wrong.

So if these many hoary heads missed this accounting for centuries, how can a 'brainout' get it? Well, the answer is that anyone who asks God, gets answers. I asked God, when confronted with the 1076 'discrepancy', which also contradicts all 19th century et seq. scholarhip -- because all the extant answers on both sides of the debate, don't balance. Now, it's not possible that all of the numbers I show are right, either; but the total from Adam through Christ, balances to Bible and accepted history; AND, the underlying meter and Time rules are consistently tracked pan-Bible to match, as shown in the channel. Start there with the math. If you see any mistakes, post here or start a new thread or post in the Eschatology forum, whatever you prefer. For the math is the math. 1+1=2 doesn't require initials after your name, to justify accuracy.

So BE SKEPTICAL. All I can do is disclose, here's what I found and what it seems to mean. Consistently, from Gen to Rev. Getting the meaning out of Daniel will elucidate Rev, especially since John keeps talking back to Daniel 7-12. So center the examination on Daniel, and then see where that takes you.
Post Posted: 20 Aug 2015, 01:00

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